i speak fluent freeper...ask me anything

[bearfartinthewoods]

in the past weeks i have noticed a whole lot of new pwople who i suspect may be new to the game. in some of the Thanksgiving day reports i have seen some really lame retorts to freeper relatives.

i speak freeper well because i live in a pubbie rich environment and debate the locals on a regular basis.

i'll be in and out a lot today but if someone needs to hone their debate skills, i'll take the freeper side so you can practice.

please remember, keep it topic oriented and try and remember this is a learning exercise. i know there are others here who could probably help out as well so feel free to kick in as surogate freepers.

the days are growing short. we need to prepare with better arguements. think of this as war gaming.

[JNelson6563]

1. not asking advice but I wonder

do you hear 9/11 offered as a major cause for economic woes? I do and I think it is hilarious. It's often coupled with the "tech bubble" which I suppose is as close as they can get to saying "Clinton's penis" without feeling too moronic.

Of course I'd rather discuss the economy with my 12 year old than a Freeper....

Was just wondering if that's what you hear and if you hear other moronic excuses offered for economic woes.

Julie

[bearfartinthewoods]

2. on 9/11 and economics

there has never before been such a hit on the American economic system. on that day and in the ensuing days our economy took a one
trillion dollar hit. we are lucky that bush's handling of the following recession was as brief and shallow as it was.

[bearfartinthewoods]

4. on the tech bubble and economics

the craziness of the 90's, when companies were listed on the stock exchange on monday and the per share price increased ten fold by friday was a disaster waiting to happen. many of the dot.com's had no positive income flow, and no plans that showed they would make money in the forseeable future. it was a giant ponsey game and, of course, when it hit the fan, the economy was going to suffer.


(as a side note, you also will hear this as an reason for the comparitivly high current unemployement rate.)

the dot com splurge caused an artificial bump in the employement numbers....an articifical high. if you compare the current numbers to the numbers during most decades you'll see bush's numbers are currently not that high.

[JNelson6563]

15. agreed

the dot com splurge caused an artificial bump in the employement numbers....an articifical high. if you compare the current numbers to the numbers during most decades you'll see bush's numbers are currently not that high.

And sadly, Bush's #s are artificial too, yet relatively dismal. Remarkable isn't it? Like President Gore said a few months back, at least the Clinton/Gore Admin. gave out honest numbers.

I applauded that line.

Julie

[MojoKrunch]

24. The dot.com craze was exactly like

"Black Tuesday".

The exact same sort of "scam the little investor" mentality that existed 80 years earlier.
We never learn.

I found this whilst digging about:

The "roaring twenties" was an era when our country prospered tremendously. The nation's total realized income rose from $74.3 billion in 1923 to $89 billion in 19291. However, the rewards of the "Coolidge Prosperity" of the 1920's were not shared evenly among all Americans. According to a study done by the Brookings Institute, in 1929 the top 0.1% of Americans had a combined income equal to the bottom 42%2. That same top 0.1% of Americans in 1929 controlled 34% of all savings, while 80% of Americans had no savings at all. Automotive industry mogul Henry Ford provides a striking example of the unequal distribution of wealth between the rich and the middle-class. Henry Ford reported a personal income of $14 million in the same year that the average personal income was $7505. By present day standards, where the average yearly income in the U.S. is around $18,5006, Mr. Ford would be earning over $345 million a year! This maldistribution of income between the rich and the middle class grew throughout the 1920's. While the disposable income per capita rose 9% from 1920 to 1929, those with income within the top 1% enjoyed a stupendous 75% increase in per capita disposable income.

http://www.gusmorino.com/pag3/greatdepression/index.html
Anyone know what Bill Gates pays himself?
And I wonder how those numbers compare to the 90's and today?
I'm thinking more Americans have savings, but I've always heard that something like 5% of the nation controls 50% of its wealth or somesuch.
Anyone know where I can find hard numbers?

One a side note, did anyone know that the SCOTUS once ruled the minimum-wage law Unconstitutional?
Amazing.

Mojo

[conservdem]

7. Do you think that they did not have a significant impact on the economy?

[JNelson6563]

13. yes, of course they did

but they are not why we are where we are today.

Julie

[conservdem]

20. If you agree that they had a significant impact, why do you call

them "moronic" excuses? I know they were not the only factors, but I do not think they are moronic excuses.

[JNelson6563]

27. because so much is overlooked

when placing all the blame for our economic woes on the preventable terror attacks and the tech-bubble.

It is one of two things to do this a.) intellectually dishonest or b.) plain old fashioned ignorance.

Face it, Red Ink Republicans don't know how to handle an economy. How many times must this be clearly demonstrated??

Julie

[conservdem]

31. In your opinion what factors are more to blame for the economic woes

through 2002?

Again, I know there was other factors, but I do not know enough about economics to identify them. Also I do not know if they were bigger factors than 911 and the tech bubble.

I agree that generally Repubs do not handle the economy well. The tax cuts should have been targeted at people that would have used their money to spur on the economy--IMO.

[JNelson6563]

36. Here's an insightful blurb

I read earlier today that puts it rather succinctly:

"Contours of Descent: US Economic Fractures and the Landscape of Global Austerity {by Robert Pollin} I found Pollin's chapter on Bush to be especially pertinent. In it, he discusses Bush's policy of military Keynesianism. Pollin recognizes that 'the US economy under Bush most certainly needs deficit spending.' (It is a peculiar fact of our era that Democrats are now for balanced budgets with Republicans embrace deficits.)

The problem with Bush's deficit is not so much its size, Pollin argues, but the deficit is financing. Bush's priorities, he correctly notes, are 'tax cuts for the rich and increased military spending.' He understands that Bush is trying to use 'war and occupation of Iraq as government stimulus policy.' And he underscores how Bush, by digging a deep deficit, provides an excuse not to spend funds on social needs. If yyou want ot figure out Bush's econmic pollicy, this is a good palce to start."

This was a book review done by Matthew Rothschild for The Progressive in the December 2003 issue.

It is as we discuss every weekday in the LBN forum here at DU in the Stock Market Watch Thread. The crappy economy and massive debt are all part of the master plan. Eliminate the middle class and create an endless supply of cheap labor.

You might note that Bush and his pals aren't feelin' the pinch. It's going according to plan. ;-)

Julie

[conservdem]

45. What about the causes prior to 2002?

Is there any greater factors that caused the problem?

The book review you quote is taking issue with his plan to resolove the problem, not its causes.

I do not think Bush, himself, really wants to eliminate the middle class. Do you really think that?

[INTELBYTES]

10. That's a hard one to argue with the freepers...

It did cost the economy over 10 trillion dollars in the aftermath. Even if those numbers are spike high, the economy got its ass kicked for awhile. I think I'd pick a better fight with them.

[JNelson6563]

12. no it didn't

the entire American economy is equal to to 10-11 trillion $$.

Julie

[many a good man]

32. 911 impact significant but not great

In economic terms, 911's impact was similar to that of a major natural disaster like an earthquake or hurricane. It was mainly felt in Manhattan with side effects in the airline industry. The economic loss in dollar terms was dwarfed by the size of *'s budget planning including the needless war in Iraq and tax cuts for the wealthy.

While indeed a hit, its economic effects were shrugged off after about a year given the massive size of the American economy. The psychological effects may be seen as its greater impact. However, *'s failure to find Bin Laden and Hussein have made the problem worse.

The uncertainty surrounding the build-up to the Iraq war depressed the stock market and delayed business decision making. The enormous costs of the occupation and piling on of government debt has weakened the US economy in a way that's not easily seen but nevertheless significant.

The dollar has reached record lows against other major currencies. Because of huge structural deficits, record lows for the dollar, and failure to critically address corporate fraud and abuse, *'s malfeasance is leading to a potential economic disaster that dwarfs the effects of 911. He has so angered the rest of the world that are silently warring against us by pulling out of our markets, which may lead to losing our status as the world's wealthiest nation and economic powerhouse.

[snippy]

3. Is it true that John Wilkes Booth was the original freeper?

[bearfartinthewoods]

5. sorry. i speak the language but am not a freeper historian

:grin:

[blindpig]

33. I believe it was actually Cato the Elder n/t

[sendero]

6. uh...

... wrong forum dude :)

seriously, I know what you mean, it's not that difficult.

Top Ten Reasons Poster Might Be a Freeper

10) strange lack of facility with the English language

9) takes a tone of being sympathetic while twisting the knife

8) sounds condescending while making a point my 7th grade son could demolish

7) makes short hit-and-run posts knowing that the more s/he says the more likely s/he is to say something blatantly stupid

6) has a low post count

5) has an absurdly uncreative nickname

4) doesn't know his/her ass from a hole in the ground

3) keeps the alert button hit count high with every post

2) once humbled, takes on the tone of being unfairly attacked

and the number one way to spot a freep....

starts in on Bill or Hillary regardless of the topic!

[bearfartinthewoods]

9. sorry .....i'm not a newbee or a freeper

if the mods think this is not a useful exercise i'm sue they'll deal with it.

[sendero]

11. nor am I

Nor was I insinuating you were. Just some attempted comedy, your reaction is puzzling.

[bearfartinthewoods]

19. no puzzle...just not enough coffee yet

the humor section of the brain hasn't been saturated yet.

and i was thinking about doing this yesterday but decided against it because i figured people would think i was a freeper trying to stir things up. there has been a lot of 'em lately so when i decided to do it anyway, i was prepared to deny the charge.

to take your list seriously for a second, i shouldn't have used the word freeper. that does refer to a distictive subset of pubbies, most of whom we shouldn't even bother with except for fun. anyone who is of that mindset isn't going to be swayed by logic etc. i'm aiming at regular pubbies and indys who can be swayed if we push the right buttons.

[sendero]

22. ok...

... point taken. but, as I say in a subsequent post, I don't really think many of those "conservatives" (I can totally respect a *real* conservative, as long as they are not a racist/homophobe)) come here.

Almost all of the folks I'm talking about really are freeps. They simply cannot *stand* the fact they cannot control or even sway the discourse here. They have 95% of the media in their pocket, but that is not enough, there can be NO ONE pointing out how stupid and reckless the moron in chief is.

Because as long as there is dissenting opinion it might get heard and the masses of reasonable people might hear it. When that happens, look out Repubs!

[UrbScotty]

8. Bush lied, people died!

No one died when Clinton lied!

[bearfartinthewoods]

14. that's not exactly something you'd say if you were trying to influence

people. no offense but that's the type of line i'm hoping people will raise raise above. when you are dealing with people who are indy or wavering pubbies, it's not a good idea to lead with a bumpersticker quote.

pick a lie (any lie <grin>) and we'll go from there.

[sendero]

17. IMHO...

... and let me be clear it is merely my opinion...

Very very few of the freeps that come here are looking for enlightenment. I am not *trying* to convert any of the asses who come into "my house" and start up with their moronic drivel. They are intruders, thinking they are going to change my mind, when they simply haven't much of a mind of their own to work with.

I'm interested in alerting them and getting them out of here. They are not capable of learning or they would not think the stupid black&white thoughts that they think.

[bearfartinthewoods]

21. that's my fault

i was trying to be cute with the i speak freeper line. what i was aiming at is trying to help people practice talking with sane pubbies and indies.
i can't prove it, but i think, in the ten years i have been talking politics with my neighbors, customers, and people i know, i have doubled the registered dems in our county. i'm not that smart or even that quick on my feet but i have learned stuff over the years and i thought i'd try and share. i guess it was a bad idea.

i have some errands to run now but i'll check back later to see if there is any interest.

[sendero]

23. In person...

... I would never take the tack I do here. I'm really a fun and engaging guy :) Message boards are too impersonal to be useful for one-on-one mind-changing IMHO.

[w4rma]

16. We need to re-regulate corporations

• because they are using their expanded power to cut corners on environmental protections thereby harming the environment which in turn harms Americans by making us sick and less healthy.
• They are also using their expanded power to price gouge Americans and even their own employees. Notice how much more upper management in many big corporations make? They are shaving alot of money off of their employees' salaries and their prices which could be lower if not for their own high salaries.
• They are using the lack of regulations on trade (free trade) to export American jobs to red China, India, Indonisia, Korea, Mexico, etc.
• They are incorporating in the Cayman Islands to avoid paying U.S. federal taxes, while they enjoy all of the benefits that American taxpayers pay for.
• The same folks are on the boards of directors of multiple corporations and favor working with the other corporations they are board members of, rather than corporations who make the best product at the lowest price.
• They are using the lack of regulation to bully their smaller competitors into bankruptcy through product dumping and government subsidies.

[bearfartinthewoods]

25. i don't have a good pubbie defense for this. in fact, this tack is one of

the most useful i have found! as long as you don't bring walmart into it (because around here, we aren't the typical situation in that wallmart did not kill our downtown), these arguements are excellent.

PA is suffering from the lose of garment worker jobs. working in sewing factories and fabric factories has been a traditional job for women. they got benefits and could move in and out of work without tremendous penalties when they took off for periods to have babies.

a good tip is to understand the local ecomomy and relate the corporate arguements directly to local conditions. i can name, off the top of my head, the firms that have quit around here and often i find the person with whom i'm talking, knows someone who lost their job and here is your hook. there is always a hook, something you can use to start them thinking about which party serves them better.

[0007]

18. Is it true that Ann Coulter is indeed a beautiful women inside and out?

[MrTriumph]

26. "...brief and shallow..." - very funny

Hey, FWIW, BFITW's analysis of B's leadership of the economy was very funny. A good joke to point out how ineffective B has been.

In fact, if the economy rebounds it will be in spite of B, not because of him, a line I hope the Dem.s will begin to stress.

I'll play along, BFINW. The budget deficit will soon be at another all-time record: $500 billion. Isn't Bush to blame?

[many a good man]

28. This is a serious topic

One of the greatest benefits of a forum such as DU is its ability to give people compelling arguments to discuss topics with conservatives and fence-sitters. And we can do a whole lot better than what I've seen so far. Radical freeper types are always beyond hope but there are many who are just going along with the crowd or have some vague doubts. Those are the ones we can reach.

I've had some success myself in reaching out. You have to know conservative arguments better than the person you're talking to. You have know the kind of person you're talking to: what motivates his/her leanings.

Some conservatives are smart people; with these people you can appeal to reason. Some are motivated by patriotism, some by love of freedom, others by self-interest. Most just along with the crowd. It is important to figure out what motivates them before framing your argument.

I have found most non-political-junkies share two common traits: 1) cynicism with government and 2) ignorance of the issues. And I can't really blame them on both counts. If someone doesn't really spend a lot of time to dig into all the issues its all hopelessly confusing. Most just pick a general philosophy (party) and stick with it regardless of details.

Most lean Republican because it appeals to their cynicism. When you don't know enough to debate the issues its always easier to just make put downs. Because the public sphere is so grossly underfunded in this country, its hard to see what the government does for people other than just keep things running. People don't see the benefits, just the impediments.

I'd love to see specific arguments made by people in this forum that have actually lit the bulb of other people and started them on the track of coming around. We all need to have more effective arguments and more effective approaches.

[MrPrax]

29. Did 'Hitlery' really kill Foster?

oh that so 1990s...wait a minute...

Oh did invading Iraq to take out WMDs that were threatening America and then finding no WMDs help build a new American Spirit?

And what about the Chinese and those ersatz cruise missiles? Will the Falcon take them out before they hit our fastfood outlets?

Are airport security checks simply a way for the Gay conspiracy to get 'freebies'?

Do you think that daycare centers spread HIV?

Do I pay too much taxes?

[Cocoa]

30. how do you spell Bill and Hitlery's last name?

:-)

[Hamlette]

34. I'd like to ask. . .

Why it is always the teacher's fault for the decline in standards of our youth? Don't the parents have some responsibility? Were we not better off when parents could spend time with their children and didn't have to work 3 jobs between them to make ends meet? My mom worked part time and did girl scouts and other stuff for us. Most parents these days don't have time and so it seems we're expecting teachers to not only teach the three Rs but morals and discipline too. The middle class it seems is disappearing or just working to hard to stay there. I know hard work didn't hurt anyone but the GOP used to believe someone should stay home with the kids. Wouldn't paying Dad a living wage go a long way to reverse this trend?

As to Iraq, I'd like to ask: Do you feel safer? What was the real reason we went in? If it wasn't to find and destroy WMD, I'm entitled to know the real reason before I send my son there to die. I'd of sent him for WMD but I would have liked to look at other options if our sole reason was Saddam was a bad guy and hurt his own people. (Sometimes it gets bad enough to fight, like with Hitler, but Saddam was no Hitler and we didn't enter WWII to stop Hitler until our own safety was threatened which Saddam certainly didn't do.)

With a full 20% of our federal tax dollars going to pay the interest on the national debt, wouldn't it be better for me to have that money to spend as I see fit instead of the government overspending and making me pay interest?

What does the Republican party stand for these days? When I was growing up the GOP stood for small government, a balanced budget and states rights. The size of the federal government grew under Reagan and both Bushes and shrunk under Clinton/Gore. The budget was balanced under Clinton and the debt tripled under Reagan/Bush and is doing the same under BushII. And the GOP doesn't recognize states rights anymore, not the right to decide who is elected Prez or who should marry. Seems the parties have switched positions to me. Isn't yours the party of big government giveaways (presciption drugs for seniors) a huge deficit and letting the feds control the states?

(I have a zillion more questions but I'll stop for now.)

[bearfartinthewoods]

38. one at a time..

Why it is always the teacher's fault for the decline in standards of our youth?
this is easy...forgive me if i dump the original debate format in favor of just talking. this is easy because if it isn't the teachers fault, it's their fault so naturally they prefer the excuse that the teachers unions AND children's welfare authorities have undermined their influences. they see their scool taxes going up and up and think all that money is going to overpaid teachers with inflated pensions who only work 9 months a year anyway..... it's easier to blame the teachers than to look at their own participation.

Were we not better off when parents could spend time with their children and didn't have to work 3 jobs between them to make ends meet?

i have never had a pubbie bring this up in a POLITICAL discussion.
it comes up in regular gripe sessions but it's hard for me to go with this one politically because you can get into "guilt" really easily.

whenever you try an arguement that lays guilt at the other person's feet, you are on thin ice. if it's a guy, you run the risk of triggering the inner response "what's the matter with me that i can't provide for my family like my father did. and it's just a hop skip from there to the whole issue about AA and immigration which is usually a dead end because those are our issues.
if it's a married woman, there is the issue that she chose poorly when she married someone who can't "provide". if it's a single mom or dad the arguement really doesn't apply. knowing as much as you can about the person comes in very very handy.

i have a customer coming. this has turned out to be a busier day than i had thought. i'll come back when i can.

if you can avoid that guilt trigger, you can usually boot up some general discontent with this type of approach which is good but it's a tricky
territory.

[UrbScotty]

35. Kick!

:kick:

[Ksec]

37. OK. How many hookers do you have on the side and does yer wife get involve

[jpgray]

39. Ok, my question would be about the New Deal

Do you have a generally favorable impression of Roosevelt's handling of the Depression? If so, do you support GOP plans to undermine and eventually eliminate Social Security and Medicare? Do you support welfare for corporations over welfare for the impoverished, or for family farmers?

I find those questions usually work well, and would like to see what the real hardcore Republican spin on them would be. In Minnesota, I find this line gets people thinking and interested.

[bearfartinthewoods]

43. nobody cares about Roosevelt.

do you support GOP plans to undermine and eventually eliminate Social Security and Medicare?

first, i once had a retired pubbie quote me to the dime how much he would have in income if he could have invested the money he paid in to SS. to the dime he knew! of course, that was before the fall in the stock market.

but the idea that the GOP plans to 'undermine'or eliminate hasn't worked well because the idea that they are 'saving' the system is pretty well ingrained. they come back with the number of workers it takes to 'support' current recipients and the number it will take to support the baby boomers and they are convinced the whole system will collapse.

this approach works well with older people, retired or near it but 'educated under forty' seems pretty convinced that they can handle their retirement needs better than the government. i admit i could use some help here myself. the numbers seem to be on the side that says this isn't going to continue to work.

i use the arguement that the upper limits to pay in has to be removed so the rich contribute based on their entire arguement

but they counter by saying it should be means tested on the pay out as well.

i come back with 'that would make it welfare instead of the compact it has always been between the old and the young.

they come back that it's better to change the nature of it than see the whole thing collapse.

the killer for me is the change in life expectancy. someone once quoted figures about the percentage of people who lived to collect SS
at it's inception. now we have people living in retirement for decades.

like i said, i could use some help with this one.

[bearfartinthewoods]

44. corp welfare and family farmers

no one likes corp welfare but the arguement, on it's own is a wash because it's like prokbarrel spending...both parties do it. and, surprisingly, i get a lot of farmer's who feel trapped by federal subsidies. they don't like doing it but feel trapped into a system.
i always tried to stay away from the family farm/welfare argeument but was surprised to see an opening there. thanks for reminding me! i need to do some research on the candidates positions on this.

like so many things, the pubbies aren't really happy with what is going on but aren't hearing much from our side about a plan for change. i'm afraid we are depending on "not bush" too much. we need to offer something more.

[drfemoe]

40. my freeper relatives

support *u*h because he is a "christian".

They were talking about the 'boycott' of Mystic River because of Sean Penn, and other movies with 'those' actors.

Of course I told them I supported those actor's right to say anything they want.

We changed the subject, because after all, it's 'Thanksgiving', and we don't want to talk about anything disagreeable.

I wish I had asked them (and may still do so) .. "tell me, is it because it is 'unchristian' or 'unpatriotic' to disagree with the *war* *res* (et al)?"

When the current 'government' = spiritual truth in action in the minds of some, you are not dealing with something that can be addressed in a rational manner.

[jpgray]

41. Kick

:kick:

[KG]

42. have long since given up trying to elighten the willfully obtuse.

the art of persuasion always eluded me, anyway.

but i do admire the persistence of others. :)

[HEyHEY]

46. What does "grunt grunt snort" mean

[dweller]

47. They smell fear

and are suffering from a lack of oxygen and original thought, due to the windpipe shut down and esophageal canal closing, and their brain is desperately attempting to keep itself from imploding. Or exploding if the topic of concern was Hillary.


dp