This has been bugging me all week. re: Clark vs. Tweety post debate

[HootieMcBoob]

Look at this exchange:

 MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, General Clark, are you for gay marriage?
       CLARK: Well, I’m for civil rights for every single American, and I believe every person in this country needs to be treated equally...
       MATTHEWS: Right. I want to...
       CLARK: ... regardless...
       MATTHEWS: ... ask you again...
       CLARK: ... of sexual orientation...
       MATTHEWS: General, we’re talking about leadership right now. As an individual American citizen, forget you’re running for president and have to worry about how the answer sounds, do you believe that two gay people should be allowed to have an officially sanctioned marriage?
       CLARK: I think they should be allowed to have exactly the same rights that any other person or any other couple does when they get married. What you term it and how it’s recognized by the church or the synagogue...
       MATTHEWS: No, forget the church and the synagogue...
       CLARK: ... or the particular state legislature...
       MATTHEWS: You’re not running for rabbi...
       CLARK: Now wait a minute.
       MATTHEWS: You’re not running for priest.
       CLARK: I’m not...
       MATTHEWS: You’re running for president of the United States.
       CLARK: That’s exactly right...
       MATTHEWS: What is your position on gay marriage?
       CLARK: ... and you-and I just told you what my position is, Chris...
       MATTHEWS: I didn’t hear it.
       CLARK: ... and you’ve changed the terms on me twice.
       MATTHEWS: I’m asking you where do you stand...
       CLARK: First you said I was a private citizen...
       MATTHEWS: Are you for or against gay marriage?
       CLARK: ... now you say that I’m running for president.
       MATTHEWS: Are you for gay marriage?
       CLARK: I am for treating people equally, Chris. This country’s legislative bodies and the churches and the synagogues...
       MATTHEWS: Right. I know.
       CLARK: ... need to move forward and face this issue squarely.
       MATTHEWS: But the problem is...
       CLARK: I believe...
       MATTHEWS: ... General...
       CLARK: ... every person in America...
       MATTHEWS: ... you’ve just given me an unquotable quote.
       CLARK: ... should be treated equally, equally...
       MATTHEWS: The problem is that’s not a quote.
       CLARK: ... and that means that partners of the same sex who want rights of survivorship, they should have them. They want joint domicile, they should have them. They want...
       MATTHEWS: Should they have a marriage license?
       CLARK: ... on each other’s insurance, if-they should have whatever license it takes...
       MATTHEWS: Should they have a marriage license...
       CLARK: ... to have that.
       MATTHEWS: Should gay people...
       CLARK: I think the American people...
       MATTHEWS: ... have a marriage license if they ask for one?
       CLARK: I think the American people have to come to this issue and ask themselves how they feel about this because, Chris...
       MATTHEWS: OK.
       CLARK: ... these are our children.
       MATTHEWS: I appreciate that. General, I understand the conundrum you face. Thank you very much General Wesley Clark. I hope to see you-in fact, I will see you in two weeks up at Harvard at our college tour. Thanks for joining us tonight.

Clark couldn't have been more clear as to where he stands on this issue. Tweety wanted him to say "I'm for gay marriage" so that the people who want to use this as a wedge issue, as an issue that divides Americans, can go to the people with a message of fear and say that Clark is for gay marriage. This is how they work. Bush would use that on middle america as a hot button issue that puts the fear of the unknown in their heart. So, what happens is that people vote out of fear.

Clark wants to explain what the issue really is to people in language that they can understand and in a way that ultimately is intended to bring us together as a country. Everyone understand's what Clark means when he says "I think they should be allowed to have exactly the same rights that any other person or any other couple does when they get married."

That's what he is trying to do with Tweety. But Tweety talks over him and doesn't allow him to finish his thoughts because he's looking for a sound bite! He even says it - "... you’ve just given me an unquotable quote." and "The problem is that’s not a quote." What the hell does that mean?

Clark's job is not to make Tweety's job easier. He's trying to talk to the American people. Tweety's job should be to allow him the platform to do that -- not try to get quotes that the opposition party can use to divide our country more.

Tweety is probably the worst interviewer on television. He's shallow and sometimes strangely dense. He's an infuriating imbecile.

:mad:

[KittyWampus]

1. Clark- Would You Love Your Children If They Were Gay?

Beautiful way to rephrase the debate. :)

Would Cheney want his daughter to be discriminated against?

Post Script: During that interview, Clark occassionally would quiet down and JUST when Matthews tried to start again Clark would reiterate his position again.

It was like watching a cat toy with a mouse :D

Clark has turned out to better with the mediawhores than I imagined he'd be.

[wtmusic]

4. Not exactly

This whole thing comes down to the word 'marriage' which is actually pretty astounding. Clark and Dean are for equal rights but when it comes to the word marriage they both waffle.

They know it will probably cost them more votes than it will get them.

[HootieMcBoob]

7. that's exactly the point

hypothecal situation: Clark says "oh yeah, I'm all for gay marriage". The GOP uses that sound bite in ads to put fear in the heart of middle america. Bush gets re-elected -- an amendment is added to the constitution that says marriage is between a man and a woman only. The result: our cause is lost.

We need to look a little farther down the road.

[barbaraann]

2. Tweety is one of the many reasons I re-cancelled my cable.

I feel cleansed. :-)

[wtmusic]

3. Now don't beat on Tweety

Tweety was asking a legitimate question--the word 'marriage' is a hot spot and Clark was avoiding it. Dean avoids it too.

Tweety has every right to get that straight with him.

[HootieMcBoob]

5. he said they should have whatever license it takes

Tweety is not allowing Clark to frame the issue in the way he chooses. How more clear could he get. If he says what Tweety wants him to say he runs the risk of alienating voters through GOP fear tactics. He then doesn't get elected based on fear and nothing gets accomplished and America remains a more divided country.

Would you rather have a president who is able to articulate an idea clearly in a way that allows people to draw a conclusion based on reason or a president that frames an issue in a way that's intended to elicit a response from people based on fear and bias?

Tweety is not an interviewer he's a heckler with his own show.

[wtmusic]

6. Clark has no right to frame Tweety's question

and again, it comes down to the word 'marriage'. It's not important to me, but it's important to a lot of people.

[HootieMcBoob]

8. yes he does absolutely

What he's trying to do is talk to Americans and to explain the issue in a way that's not divisive. I know it's important to a hell of a lot of people. It's important to me and I believe it's important to General Clark. That's why it shouldn't be hi-jacked by the fear mongers. Just curious...where do you stand on the issue?

<edit: spelling>

[wtmusic]

11. Er... well I...the important thing is...equal rights....

I am 100% FOR gay marriage.

Please explain how the question was 'hijacked'. If anything, Clark hijacked the question by refusing to answer it.

It's a simple question, and Clark refuses to answer it.

[HootieMcBoob]

14. are you for it in theory or in reality?

Because if you want it to be a reality you wouldn't be so insistant them using the word marriage. That plays into the GOP's hands. All of the gay people I know would much rather Dean or Clark be elected and actually be allowed the equal rights that would come their way based on a pragmatic response to an issue. It's called using tactics that are more likely to be successful in achieving the end you desire. Not too difficult to understand if you ask me.

[wtmusic]

18. I really don't care about playing anything

I am not insistent about them using the word 'marriage'. I didn't ask Clark the question. It's an important question to a lot of people. If Clark doesn't believe in gay marriage he should just come out and say so, all the gay people you know won't care, and he'll be our next president.

All this tiptoeing is really rather silly.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

33. Isn't your guy doing the same thing?

n/t

[wtmusic]

38. Yes he is

and it bugs me with him too.

It is really, really absurd when people can't be frank about something like this.

[KittyWampus]

9. Politicians NEED To Turn Questions To Their Own Advantage

or they are mince meat.

[wtmusic]

12. I don't believe it

this is denial, avoidance, spin, call it what you will.

I'm so tired of hearing this waffling going on I'm about ready to vote for the first candidate who takes a stand, regardless of what it is.

[oasis]

27. That's why I admired President Mondale, He was a plain spoken man.

:-)

[HootieMcBoob]

29. LOL

That's funny :)

[wtmusic]

36. I don't believe this

The emperor has no clothes. A bunch of theoretically grown men afraid to address the subject of whether to include a word in legislation or not (and people actually supporting them in this choice).

Infantile.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

31. None of our guys are going to come out and say that - including Dean

This country is too small-minded to deal with that issue right now. How much do you want to make a bet that a President Dean or President Clark would try to see it go through early in their second term. Once they no longer have to worry about re-election.

Sorry - but they're politicians.

[wtmusic]

39. Thank you--then why can't they say

that the country isn't ready to deal with that issue yet? It is truly that simple.

[SEAburb]

10. what a well thought out post

Great job Hootie Mac you clearly grasp what the RW media is up to with this issue.

A couple months ago I saw a piece on CBC National news on the Gay marriage issue in the US. They had this repug on, I didn't catch his name, saying that Bush was going to use the issue heavily in states he narrowly lost in '00. Their thinking is that the Gay marriage issue can get them the one or two percent they need to win those states.

[radfringe]

13. Call it whatever you want

marriage, unions, commitments, domestic partnerships etc....

don't care what they call it as long as my partner and I get the same rights

[HootieMcBoob]

15. thank you for making my point.

:)

[wtmusic]

16. It seems to me many more GLBTs

are tolerant of whatever word is used, although I have seen some RADICAL posts insisting that it the word 'marriage' be part of legislation.

Personally I think the candidates would fare better if they came out against it, but for equal rights. This is much more of a 'button' topic on the right.

[HootieMcBoob]

17. You're right

it's a "button topic on the right". That's the point I'm trying to make. The candidates area looking down the road to the general election. We have to be able to see the forest for the trees. If you want "equal rights" you'd be well advised to listen to what they say - all of it. If you want to help the GOP sabotage a democratic candidate, then insist that they play the game according to the rules of Tweety.

[wtmusic]

20. Then Clark should have the *BALLS* to say so

So you're advocating a Democratic nominee should avoid answering a simple question?

[HootieMcBoob]

21. ok, for some reason you're not understanding this

just keep banging your head against that wall.

[wtmusic]

22. You're right

Are you afraid of the word 'marriage' too? Where do you stand on the issue?

[HootieMcBoob]

23. oh for crying out loud n/t

[wtmusic]

24. ROFLMAO! You won't even say, will you?

[HootieMcBoob]

25. wait, you're Chris Matthews aren't you?

I know it's you...c'mon admit it.

[wtmusic]

26. Wait, you're Wesley Clark, aren't you?

avoid... avoid... avoid...

[HootieMcBoob]

28. I am all for gay marriage. Yes I am!

I'm not afraid to say it, I'd even come right out and tell Tweety on national television. But if I was running for president and I wanted to succeed in an election so that I might be able to work toward actually obtaining equality under the law for same sex partners I would frame the issue in the same way that Clark is. Why is this concept difficult for you to grasp?

[wtmusic]

35. So you believe spin is necessary?

[HootieMcBoob]

40. I honesly don't see it as spin

I think Tweety was spinning the question. The real issue is equal rights for same sex partners under the law -- period. The right wing want's to call it "gay marriage" just like they framed the debate about the estate tax by calling it "the death tax". And of course you know there's no such thing as "partial birth abortion". The GOP wins by framing the debate their way. The media picks up the spin of the GOP and throws it back into the faces of the Democrats. We have to be able to frame the debate our way.

[wtmusic]

42. Well okay

I think it's a good idea to deemphasize the word too. But unfortunately 'marriage' is a legal term as well as a religious one, unlike 'partial birth abortion', 'pro-life', 'pro-choice' etc.

But re: 'The real issue is equal rights for same sex partners under the law -- period'--that's true for you, but not for a lot of people. So Tweety has the right to ask it.

[HootieMcBoob]

43. Clark's quotes:

Read the highlighted words of Clark. Between the badgering interuptions of Tweety. Tell me you don't understand what he's saying...

CLARK: ... every person in America...
       MATTHEWS: ... you’ve just given me an unquotable quote.
       CLARK: ... should be treated equally, equally...
       MATTHEWS: The problem is that’s not a quote.
       CLARK: ... and that means that partners of the same sex who want rights of survivorship, they should have them. They want joint domicile, they should have them. They want...
       MATTHEWS: Should they have a marriage license?
       CLARK: ... on each other’s insurance, if-they should have whatever license it takes...

I honestly don't see how you can be supportive of Tweety in this.

[SEAburb]

32. Ha-Ha, good comeback HootieMac //nt

hhhhhhhooooooo

[roughsatori]

45. Clark came off like he was afraid in that interview

But his supporters don't care if he dodges questions. I watched the interview and Clark came off worse then Tweety. He lacked the courage to take a stand. Now his supporters act like his waffling was courageous--or that it is ok to waffle because if will get him votes to be vague.

He shows that in the non-military arena he is not a leader--but a poll driven politician who waits for his handlers to let him know what a safe stance would be for him to take. To be a progressive leader and get elected takes creativity and courage. I'm sure Clark is intelligent, and had courage in the military--but his lack of history with Progressive and Democratic ideology shows in many of his interviews. And yet he also lacks the passion of many converts.

I respect that you admit that Dean also dodges on this issue.

[mikehiggins]

47. Here's the deal

If you find Clark's answer objectionable, you are free to vote for someone else.

If you think Clark or Dean should jump through hoops for Chris Matthews, you are free to vote for someone else.

Find a candidate who is willing to say what YOU think he should say and vote for him (or her).

There, that isn't hard, is it?

[wtmusic]

52. Thanks

And if you disagree with my posts, feel free to do so.

If you feel that Clark is correct by avoiding the question, by all means, point it out.

Find the candidate who you support, and cast your vote accordingly.

Good deal!

[Mz Pip]

19. I'm really looking

forward to Clark taking on Tweety on Hardball. He made mincemeat of that Faux News guy Asman.

"You've just given me an unquotable quote." Tweety wants soundbites. He seems to be bafled by anything more.

MzPip
:dem:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

30. Clark was great in that interview - totally took charge. Made me proud

to be a Dem. He did in a very likeable and charming way too.

[mmonk]

34. Tweety

was just trying to make it look like Clark was ducking him.

[UTUSN]

37. If Tweety Would Hardball Wingnuts the Same Way

he does Dems, I would respect that. We don't want favoritism from the media whores, we want an EQUAL playing field, which is what there ISN'T.

[Skip Intro]

41. wtf is an "unquotable quote" - ?

"MATTHEWS: ... you’ve just given me an unquotable quote."

:wtf:

[Mz Pip]

44. Something he

can't quote out of context. It's also unquotable because Tweety won't dare repeat something that makes Clark look good.

MzPip
:dem:

[HoosierClarkie]

53. I thought he liked Clark?

He used to talk about Clark respectfully. What do you think happened?
Now it seems like he deliberately gets people on his show that either will refuse to say "Clark" or anything nice about him.

[VOX]

46. Goddamnit, I'm beginning to like Clark more and more...

He stays on message even when these cable-boobs deliberately try to rattle him, and he will swing back if necessary, as witnessed in the Faux "interview."

As for Tweety, how much longer can that Type A twit blather on before he has his first heart attack?

[ibegurpard]

48. He really is a prick isn't he?

n/t

[HoosierClarkie]

49. He's too smart for them. Plain and simple. n/t

[ConsAreLiars]

50. Despite the screaming by tweety

Clark really got to the essence of this issue. I saw this interchange on msnbc. The words used ("civil partnership" vs. hetero "marriage") matter less than the actual facts. "I think they should be allowed to have exactly the same rights that any other person or any other couple does when they get married. What you term it and how it’s recognized by the church or the synagogue." Once there is no difference between "civil partnership" and "marriage" the semantics will follow. I'm impressed.

(edit typo)

[Coldgothicwoman]

51. Look...isn't the POINT here...

...that MARRIAGE is the key word? Marriage is a RELIGIOUS term? Why hasn't the debate been framed that it ISN'T a legal term to begin with?!?

Instead of mocking each other because our candidates won't get baited by the wingnuts over a NON-LEGAL TERM, why don't we POINT OUT that that term is TOTALLY bogus?!? :spank:

I don't understand the self-cannibalism on a term THEY fucking determined!!!

</Rant...sorry...>