Great article on WalMart. US consumers are tying their own rope.

[JanMichael]

And tossing it over the branch. It's so pathetically sad.

http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2002-05-08/news.html

"But, say apologists for these Big-Box megastores, at least they're creating jobs. Wrong. By crushing local businesses, this giant eliminates three decent jobs for every two Wal-Mart jobs that it creates--and a store full of part-time, poorly paid employees hardly builds the family wealth necessary to sustain a community's middle-class living standard."

Fabulous, just fabulous.

"Indeed, Wal-Mart operates as a massive wealth extractor. Instead of profits staying in town to be reinvested locally, the money is hauled off to Bentonville, either to be used as capital for conquering yet another town or simply to be stashed in the family vaults (the Waltons, by the way, just bought the biggest bank in Arkansas)."

People that are fabulously rich due to being "good sperm"...Indefensible IMHO.

"Why should we accept this? Is it our country, our communities, our economic destinies--or theirs? Wal-Mart's radical remaking of our labor standards and our local economies is occurring mostly without our knowledge or consent. Poof--there goes another local business. Poof--there goes our middle-class wages. Poof--there goes another factory to China. No one voted for this ... but there it is. While corporate ideologues might huffily assert that customers vote with their dollars, it's an election without a campaign, conveniently ignoring that the public's "vote" might change if we knew the real cost of Wal-Mart's "cheap" goods--and if we actually had a chance to vote."

While they depress wages and benefits here in the US their treatment of foreign workers is abysmal.

Here's nice activist site: http://www.flagstaffactivist.org/campaigns/walmyths.html

Other than a bunch of "cranks" on the web, how do we get the word out? WalMart airs a fake feel good ad something like a MILLION times an hour. How to stop them? I don't know, but I care.

Do you?

[BeatleBoot]

1. Personally, I refuse to shop there.

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. That is admirable, but here's why it won't do any good

Even if every single person with the resources to do so boycotts Wal-Mart, it will not significantly affect their sales.

Wal-Mart does not need the business of people who have the choice of going somewhere else and paying more.

What they DO need, what they depend on, is the business of the people who will either buy their kids sneakers at Wal-Mart or have barefooted kids.

As the middle class is phased out (here defined as those with discretionary resources of time/money/energy left over after basic needs are met) - well, you get the picture.

A particularly cruel Wal-Mart sign I saw a while ago:

"Has your pharmacy closed?

"Wal-Mart pharmacy has your prescription for LESS!"

The sign was at the edge of a Wal-Mart parking lot that had previously been the location of the third or fourth drugstore in the community that had been forced to close because they couldn't compete with Wal-Mart.

[JanMichael]

5. I agree. I simply don't know what I can do.

I haven't bought anything at one for a couple of years, even back then I rarely went.

But that doesn't do crap in the BIG picture...

[Deja Q]

13. Try what's in post #12 for starters. Boycotting does nothing as it stand.

Spreading the word to encourage boycotting on a massive scale seems our only shot.

[philosophie_en_rose]

30. Don't forget lawsuits!

http://www.walmartclass.com/walmartclass94.pl?wsi=0&websys_id=&websys_screen=all_faqs_index

WOMEN PRESENT EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD DISCRIMINATION AT WAL-MART; ASK JUDGE TO EXPAND CASE TO BE LARGEST EVER SEX DISCRIMINATION CASE

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Class Certification Seeks Trial for More Than 1.5 Million Current and Former Wal-Mart Employees

“With demeaning attitudes toward women held by managers at all levels of Wal-Mart, it’s little surprise that we found women were being paid less and had far fewer chances of getting promoted into management than men,” said plaintiffs class action attorney Joseph M. Sellers of Cohen, Milstein, Hausfeld & Toll, co-counsel for the women. “Wal-Mart needs to clean up its act. This behavior is more reminiscent of the 1950s than the 21st century.”

{...}

More than 100 current and former Wal-Mart female employees, from hourly workers to former district managers, provided sworn declarations in support of the class certification motion. The women, who worked at Wal-Mart Stores in 30 states, detail their personal experiences with Wal-Mart’s discriminatory practices, including:

****A female assistant manager in Utah was told by her store manager that retail is “tough” and not “appropriate” for women;
****Another manager in Texas told a female employee that women have to be “bitches” to survive Wal-Mart management, while a Sam’s Club manager in California told another woman that she should “doll-up” to get promoted;
****Managers have repeatedly told women employees that men “need to be paid more than women because they have families to support”:
****A male manager in South Carolina told a female employee that “God made Adam first, so women would always be second to men”;
****A female manager in Arizona was told she got paid less than a less qualified male because she “didn’t have the right equipment.”
****A female personnel manager in Florida was told by her manager that men were paid more than women because “men are here to make a career and women aren’t. Retail is for housewives who just need to earn extra money.”
****Over objections from a woman executive, senior management regularly referred to female store employees as “little Janie Qs” and “girls”;
****Female managers were required to go to Hooters sports bars as well as strip clubs for meetings and office outings;
****The most senior human resources executive at Wal-Mart approves of Hooters as a place to have Wal-Mart meetings;
****In a photo distributed to Wal-Mart employees in the company newsletter, Jim Haworth, now Wal-Mart Stores CEO, is shown sitting in a chair modeled as a leopard skin spike heel.
****A Women in Leadership group, disbanded by Wal-Mart in the mid-1990s, found that “stereotypes limit opportunities offered to women” at Wal-Mart, such as “men are viewed as replacements, women are viewed as support” and “aggressive women intimidate men”;


Other links: www.walmartversuswomen.com www.cmht.com

[Karyotin]

214. Let's boycott the trial lawyers

trying to make a buck off Wal Mart. That would be a start

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

219. Why?

Because attys try to make the world a better place? Because those evil nasty trial lawyers sue the bastards to make them comply with employment, labor, OSHA, environmental and other workplace laws? Or is it just because you'd rather spout right wing propaganda about lawyers just trying to make a buck?

So you know, I've sued Wal Mart on more than one occasion (in employment related matters). They fight dirty- they withhold documents, they refuse to comply with court orders, and they destroy evidence. For every hour that you as a plaintiffs' atty spends on a normal case, you must spend about 3 or 4 on a WalMart case. They are under a STANDING state wide discovery compliance order in Texas. A Jefferson County district judge hit them with a $15 million sanction for failure to produce documents as ordered by the court. Wal Mart subverts the true rule of law and the legal process any chance it gets.

But you're right. Let's go after the lawyers instead. :eyes:

[camero]

223. Somebody have a problem with the RULE OF LAW.

Apparently you do. Because Wal-Mart is obligated to treat people with respect. Your Shakesperean quote only shows you as a friend of Hitler.

[Karyotin]

213. Yeah. We should run on that next year

That'll rally people. Unless they don't get the message because they're all at Wal Mart

[BeatleBoot]

7. You are correct.

[devinsgram]

27. In my area, that is not true,

actually their prices are higher and they do not do a lot of business here and I am grateful for that. Plus their hours are terrible. They are the only pharmacy that closes for lunch, which I think is really stupid. If you need something in a hurry you have to wait till they get back. They totally close down, can't even pick something up. I know a lot of people who went back to their previous pharmacy for that reason alone.

[dmr]

48. Re: Pharmacy

This Walmart probably has just one pharmacist on duty. Just like anyone else, the pharmacist wants to take a break and eat lunch. Per law, the pharmacy must close when the the pharmacist is not there - which includes picking up or dropping off prescriptions. For many reasons this is an important law.

The only recourse your Walmart has is to spend more money and hire a second pharmacist, even one to work per diem, to cover lunch breaks. I know many, many retail pharmacists who do not take any breaks because of corporate office pressures placed upon them (and many times they stay a second shift because the next shift's pharmacist is not there - if they don't stay, then the pharmacy, again, must close). I bet Walmart has tried to pressure this pharmacist not to take breaks. More power to him or her for assuring they and the pharmacy staff take at least one daily rest break, because no matter how it looks to the public, it can be, and usually is a gruelling job, mentally and physically.

[tinrobot]

39. Too many barefooted kids....

What they DO need, what they depend on, is the business of the people who will either buy their kids sneakers at Wal-Mart or have barefooted kids.

If there's THAT many barefooted kids who must shop at Wal-Mart, then the damage cited in the article is already done. I would imagine the parents of these barefooted kids are either Wal-Mart employees or people put out of work by Wal-Mart.

I wonder if anyone has done studies on whether or not an area becomes economically depressed as a Wal-Mart comes to town. Does a Wal-Mart depress the economy so that people have to shop there? It might be one way of locking in the customers for Sam's kids...

[DuctapeFatwa]

51. The Wal-Mart strategy dovetails with US social policy

You are correct that much of the damage was already done before Wal-Mart became so huge.

Wal-Mart is not solely responsible for all the barefooted kids, many of whom live in inner urban areas and for whom a trip to Wal-Mart involves the greater part of the day on public transportation.

Nor could it have become so huge, and so damaging, without the benefit of long-standing policies that permit, even encourage unchecked greed and exploitation in the name of capitalism and free markets, all the while quick-marching the country into feudalism!

Although unarguably more profitable for the lord, feudalism is not capitalism, nor is it a free market, and when the market value of a day's labor falls below the market value of a day's survival, and the oddds of achieving upward mobility gain parity with those of winning the power ball, the incentive principles of capitalism no longer apply, and the free market is for want of a better word, nuked.

[duvinnie]

107. some other ways to fight

Besides not shopping at Warmart any more, we can

- make a point to shop with ABW (anyone but W), specially
mom and pop stores and smaller chains.
- tell everyone we know that we dont shop at W, and why not.
(I tell folks that Walmart is to consumers what Enron was to
investors).
- donate to anyone who fights W; unions, candidates, anyone
who is opposed to nafta-style hucksterism.

BTW, I see your point about the limited options for the poor,
but every community with a Warmart also has a Walgreens
or a Longs; I also stop in frequently at my local Thrift Town
for great prices on the very best clothing and shoes - cheaper
than W.

[Nay]

22. I have not shopped there in years, either.

It may not do anything to hurt them much, but I feel better for it.

[KoKo]

2. An Excelent Post.....needs time for folks to "digest."

I am thankful every day that I'm on the Internet......

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. If you go into a Wal-Mart, you can feel the despair

Before I was aware of the damage these people do, I'd go into one of their stores and I would see sad expressions on the help, and a sad feel to the store. BTW, not only have the Waltons bought a bank, they are the biggest campaign contributors to Rep. John Boozman (R ARK) a real right-winger.

[JanMichael]

6. Sam Walton has created the perfect Collectivist Corporation.

One that enriches a few and screws the rest. A forgotten State Commu-Capitalist...

And you're probably right about the sense of despair.

[Hypoxis]

59. That's crap

I have been in dozens of Wal-Marts, and like any other place, there are cheerful friendly people and people who are just there. No one is forced to work at a Wal-Mart, so PLEASE stop this 'depressing place' shit.

[MadHound]

73. I have been in literally hundreds of WalMarts, and yes, for the most part

There is dispair amongst the help.

Seventeen years ago I picked up a part-time job traveling around the South and Midwest counting inventory for a company that outsourced that for WalMart(among other stores). We would get there early in the morning to start before the customers and would get to watch the help come in. I've never heard so much complaining about work, both mental health complaints(depressed), money woes(horribly underpaid), and physical health(back problems, joint problems etc.). I felt so sorry for these people, in store after store, it was always the same. Some would get it together to put on the happy face for the customers, others didn't give a damn. And I don't blame them. It really suprised me to learn that I made more during my first year part time than some of these Wal-Mart folks who had been there five-ten years. Outrageous!

And guess what folks, this is the scenario that most of the corporate power brokers envision for all of us, capatilist serfs in the land of plenty.

[Enraged_Ape]

76. WalMart IS the most depressing place on Earth

My wife absolutely refuses to step into a WalMart. She has talked me into it as well. I haven't been to one in months and I won't go.

From the minute you drive into the parking lot, where rows of RVs are parked because people can't (or won't) spring for a decent RV park to spend the night, to the time you actually walk into the store and navigate the crowded aisles of screaming children and frustrated, lower-middle-income parents, to the acres of picked-over shelves carrying sweatshop-generated, planned-to-be-obsolescent merchandise, it's all an excursion in the lower circle of the hell of capitalism--a preview of the miserable future of this entire country under the BFEE. I can't stand it.

[BeachBuckeye]

90. Have you ever been to Wally World or Sam's Club in the morning?

Before they open? They must do mandatory WalMart cheers. Talk about depressing? How could anything be worse than being forced to do cheers for WalMart and Sam's Club? I find it degrading and immoral.

[BeachBuckeye]

91. Hypoxis, you are so full of it!

You don't know what you are talking about. Years ago I was an elected official involved in a fight against Wal-Mart. Countless small towns with NO MALLS have lost their thriving downtowns because of blood-sucking Wal-Marts. First they come into small communities with a gang of propagandists who go around town and speak to realtors and politicians and tell them how good this will be for "your town." Then they get people to start letter writing campaigns to the local newspapers saying "we want Wal-Mart." Then they start coming to city council meetings to get more exposure and start a campaign against those city officials who are against them. They are vicious and unrelenting. I, personally have been involved in a study of small communities who's small businesses have been devastated by these slime-bucket Wal-Mart people and I can tell you, absolutely, that they have hurt the tax base of most of these towns, and have cost many decent paying jobs to be lost. The small town people then end up working for Wal-Mart because there is nowhere else to go.

Your pro Wal-Mart stance is uninformed and pure horseshit.

[Hypoxis]

160. Why don't you mention the hundreds of dollars poor people save

every year by getting Wal-Mart's low prices? Sure, you can buy a toilet seat at Homer's Hardware for 25 bucks. Or you can get the same thing at Wal Mart of $8.97. Homer's Hardware might employ what? 12 people? Mostly old men chewing the fat all day. Then they close promptly at 5. But what if you need something at ten at night? Hell, the regular hardware store might close for a week in the winter because Homer and his wife snowbird in Florida. Wal-Mart employs hundreds, not just a handful. They have every phase of their operation down to a science. You can get anything you want at the lowest prices possible. This is great for the lower income people who make a weekend trip into town from the rural areas.
Look, if you folks who've got money want to pay too much at Homer's just because you can go in there and gab for awile, fine. But let poorer busier people enjoy the fruits of market efficiency. They aren't complaining.

[JanMichael]

164. Why don't YOU mention the MONEY they'd MAKE!

Those same "workers", if we SHARED PROFIT!!!! Instead of defending the horrific WAGE (NATIONAL, AS IN AMERICA!!!! You ANTI AMERICAN FUCKING BITCH!) DEPRESSOR why don't you take a freeper moment and wonder HOW the fuck the "Average" American is supposed to pay their goddamned bills on $8.95/HOUR??

Look, if you folks who've got money want to pay too much at Homer's (Target, K=Mart, HOMO-DEPOT (The biggest APOLOGIES to our gay DU'ers!) etfuckingcetera) just because you can go in there and gab for awhile, fine. But let poorer busier people enjoy the fruits of market efficiency. They aren't getting that now, period. What that means is that the worker that delevers the "goods" to you is tired, and poor...

[Hypoxis]

174. Not satisfied with your job?

Then get another job. That's what I always say.

[w4rma]

195. Over 3 and a half *million* jobs have been lost in the past 3 years.

What jobs?

The number of jobs available are not keeping up with population growth. And the quality and pay of the jobs that haven't been exported out of the country (yet) are stagnant or dropping.

[camero]

197. They all went to China

So freepers could pay $6 for a gallon of pickles.

[JanMichael]

206. It is? Then you say ignorant things.

Intentionally obtuse are ya'?

BTW~ I have a great job:-)

[OhioStateProgressive]

172. what about the 14 cents an hour 14 year olds are paid

to make tha shit for "poor" americans to buy

lets look at "poor" in the most correct fashion

[Hypoxis]

176. I don't know if you figures are based in reality...

but its probably 14 cents more than the boy's family would have had. In many places, a few cents buys a lot more than it does here, so stop with the strawman arguments. These workers don't live in New York City where it costs $5000 a month to rent a fucking apartment.

[solinvictus]

182. Wal Mart Labor

Gee, and I guess it's acceptable for Red China to use political prisoners in hazardous factories to make crap for Wally World contractors? By default, since Wal Mart is China's major trading partner, every dollar spent there supports communism in China. Why do you hate freedom so much and why are you so apologetic for an anti-American company that bankrolls totalitarianism?

[Karyotin]

215. The best way to oust the Communist

bastards is to give them a big dose of capitalism. Thank God Wal Mart is doing that for those people.

[camero]

221. About two cans short of a six pack, are we?

Did you even look at your buddy Reagan? The best way is to bankrupt them, not bankroll them. But then again, I don't think that I'm speaking to a capitalist. I'm speaking to a fascist.

There's no difference between what Wal-mart does and what the Stalinists did. They both curtail freedom and entrap people in slavery.

Your fascist fantasy world will be bankrupted shortly.

[OhioStateProgressive]

185. how uncompassionate and uncaring(nt)

[qanda]

192. I bought a toilet seat from Wal-Mart for exactly $8.97

And within two months I was back buying one for 19.88, because it made for the most disgusting, germy piece of crap (pardon the pun) I have ever purchased. I have found that Wal-Marts prices are really not that cheap. I started doing comparative price shopping and I found that I can get most items for the same price or lower by just shopping around. Sure they have some neat cheap JUNK at Wal-Mart that may make for a very cluttered home, should you indulge, but I prefer to mainly purchase neccessities and leave the junk for people who say they are poor, but spend tons of money on stuff they really don't need.

[Karyotin]

216. You do have to clean toilet seats

in order to get rid of the germs regardless of the price of the seat. Jesus. Wal-Mart does have more deluxe seats for about $14, so you still overpaid, but oh well. That was your choice.

[FreakinDJ]

8. I have been saying this for years

and like he said it is almost already too late

People need to realize Walmart won't stop until we have NO HEALTH CARE and NO MIDDLE CLASS

Repeat after me folks

WALMART SUCKS

Even Rainman knows that

[JanMichael]

9. So have I. I just like to remind people every so often.

Plus as time goes on I think more powerful stories are being written about WalMart. Time cures all ills...

[Wapsie B]

10. A long-term solution

would be to have a national economy so thriving that people don't have to resort to taking jobs with them in order to eat. So it's in it's best interests to have the US remain under the reich-wingers. The economy's in the toilet and people are begging for work.

But with the greying of baby-boomers comes a serious long-term worker shortage. Even with the fact that some do work after retirement, with a good economy Wally World would be shut out of the labor pool.

As big as they are they simply cannot go on forever without hitting some big bumps in the road. Some long-term thinking in Bentonville is in order. It would behoove them to stop this sweatshop mentality. Otherwise there'll be hell to pay in the future. As it stands now, Wally World is the epitome of kapitalism; making vast fortunes off cheap labor.

[Wapsie B]

15. I don't think a boycott would work.

You could target the vendors of its most profitable products and threaten a boycott if they sold to WW. But even if it were successful WW would just find another vendor for that product.

[jmowreader]

23. It won't work

And that's because Wal-Mart's size means anyone who sells to Wal-Mart counts Wal-Mart as one of their largest accounts, if WM isn't their very largest account.

This means we've got to do this another way: Ending municipal giveaways for Wal-Mart stores. In the local paper we learned of Wal-Mart's attempts to move into the Town of Lillington. They were granted big-time water and sewer concessions, tax relief, free land, and all they had to do was promise to make sure the average pay was $340 per week. Three hundred and forty dollars a week. Average.

[Pattib]

98. Agree. To many people have no where else to shop.

In my smallish town there is nothing else. One Super Wal-Mart and one grocery store. Main street is all but closed down. There are two small clothing stores and that's about it. Closest mall is a forty-five minute drive.

I shop at the Military base for groceries and drive the forty-five minutes to Target and other stores. However, it is almost impossible to avoid Wal-Mart. There are those times when you need something immediately and are left with no choice.

BTW, why does Wal-Mart trot out those hideous jewelry boxes every year for Christmas? I swear they must have invested in that crap years ago and are trying to sell off the same old left over merchandise every Christmas.

[JohnyCanuck]

11. I hate the greedy bastards with a passion

When they first opened up in Canada several years ago, and I was unaware of the slave-labor type of operation they run and try to force onto their suppliers, I actually purchased a watch from them. I am glad to say that was my first and last Wal-Mart purchase ever.
I am not shy about letting others know why I refuse to shop their either.

[Deja Q]

12. Without the cranks, who's gonna say squat? The answers are obvious

Making leaflets and distributing them to libraries, grocery stores, WAL-MART stores is a start.

Going to a wal-mart, packing up a cart, going to the register, then politely giving them a note saying you'll buy what's in it when Wal-mart changes its tune (be as descriptive BUT POLITE AND NON-THREATENING as you want.) Of course, you'll likely get only one shot at this before management posts a picture of you saying you're barred from the store, oooooh... :eyes:

Shit, man, this stuff is obvious. Thank the cranks for being gutsy enough to spread the word in public.

[JanMichael]

14. I said "Cranks" on the WEB! Sheesh!

Not RL...You know it might be fun to start organising some of the activities that you mentioned.

Maybe there's a site that already does that? AdBusters is sort of all over the board, what we need is a active anti-WalMart only organisation.

[Fridays Child]

24. Here's a whole pageful.

http://www.bit-net.com/~dka/Resources/Best%20Links.html

I didnt review them but they could be interesting.

[loudnclear]

16. What they need is competition that pays good jobs and benefits.

Someone or a group who really don't need to care so much about the bottom line for at least three years. Just do to Wal-mart what Wal-mart has done to so many others. Under sell them until they go out of business. Problem is that the well-Republican connected Waltons have tied up bulk suppliers all over the world. That's where the starting point is.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calimary]

227. Hee hee, I KNEW there was a Clinton-slam in here somewhere...

You're busted. And I'm in NO MOOD for shit like this today.

[IrateCitizen]

228. Congratulations. You just busted a tombstone.

This one's been long-gone for a while now.

Any more shoot-em-up games ya wanna play today, sheriff?

[camero]

230. I made the same mistake

Shoulda looked at the profile before I did. But after 220 posts of point and counterpoint, they still don't get it. And it's pissing me off.

[G_j]

17. I HATE WM!

with a passion...
I spent the better part of two years fighting off a 'Super-Center' here in Asheville NC. We turned them away twice and that was no easy matter. They finally bought and paid for a new City Council, come election time through a PAC.
Now, not only are they building an EXTRA huge 'SC' on the banks of a river here, but we have a horribly regressive City Council (which, needless to say has had all kinds of her nasty repercussions)
I gave just about every thing I had to try to protect our beautiful city from this cancer.
I hate those evil fuckers!!!!

[JanMichael]

19. Democracy:Money.

They can't peacefully co-exist can they?

At least you fought the "Good" fight.

[G_j]

26. yes and

it's a fight that is considered one of the biggest in our city's history.

..I usually don't even respond to WM threads here, because I feel sort of burned out from it all. This article was an especially good one. Thanks for sharing it. :-)

[Piperay]

18. I HATE Walmart and

I am glad that my city had the balls to tell them to go somewhere else, that they weren't going to be blackmailed into giving in on environmental laws etc. I have been into once and I wasn't impressed, didn't purchase anything.

[creativelcro]

37. I hate WalMart because I'm told they sell crap

Never been to one though...

[Hypoxis]

61. Then you have been misinformed

You ought to go see what you've been missing, then go back and smack the person who told you the lie that they sell crap.

[Q]

67. Walmart indeed DOES sell crap....

...produced mostly by child and slave labor....made with cheap materials. One doesn't shop at Walmart if they're looking for QUALITY.

- Some of my relatives shopped at WM and everything they've purchased there has broken or simply fallen apart. They now shop at local stores and pay a little more for quality instead of quanity.

- I've convinced everyone I know NOT to shop at Walmart. It's easy to do once they know the truth.

[Enraged_Ape]

78. WalMart indeed sells complete crap...

made for pennies by children in sweatshops the world over.

Although, Hypoxis, I'm sorry if I said your glowing sculpture with the floating glass beads and your faux-ceramic Winnie the Pooh desk lamp are crap. I know that kind of thing must mean a lot to WalMart shoppers.

[Athletic Grrl]

81. Hypoxis, you are dead wrong.

Levi's had to dumb down its own quality line of clothing to make something affordable for the Wal Mart crowd. I found this article enlightening and backs up what has already been said here...

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

[Hypoxis]

162. Ridiculing the poor? I tell you, this is incredible

So you have a problem with the 'Wal-Mart crowd' as you derisively label folks without means. You know what? These people do the best they can. I am terribly sorry if they can't afford top quality jeans like you. So why do you want to keep them from buying what they CAN afford.

[camero]

165. maybe if the scumsuckers would pay people better

they might be able to buy top quality jeans.

[Dork]

187. No

The sale rack at any brand name fancy (incidentally most likely also slave labor product filled) store at the mall is cheaper than Duck Hunter tapered jeans and Moose Country flannels from hell at Wal Mart. It's idiot crap for stupid people.

[tkmorris]

133. Oh man, friend you're hilarious

Of COURSE they sell crap. Their whole strategy is built around having the lowest possible prices and to do that, they sell CRAP!!

You can't have it both ways and you know it.

[Hypoxis]

166. Sorry, but the stuff I get at Wal-Mart is as good as anywhere else

I buy lots of pens, legal pads, paint (Consumer Reports labeled Wal-Mart flat paint a best buy). I get kids' soccer shoes, sports equipment, toys. Groceries that are the cheapest in town. You know, a Bic pen is a Bic pen. Kids outgrown soccer shoes a lot faster than they wear out. A plastic Tupperware basket is the same everywhere. Ragu spaghetti sauce? Same sauce anywhere. I just don't get these stories about inferior quality. I probably don't buy a suit there, never tried. They might be fine for all I know. I can get my oil changed for $15.97. You all think I should go to Jiffy Lube for $26.95? How about Monopoly for $8.95. You think the playing pieces are inferior at Wal-Mart? Are the Scrabble tiles inferior? How bout the Snickers bars? Fake chocolate? What the fuck is it you people think is inferior at Wal-Mart?

[JanMichael]

200. You're a cheap labor consumer.

Whooptidooo! Do you like the fact that you support low wage jobs? Working family's must be below you. Good job you big guy, you;-)

[w4rma]

196. (n/t)

[Gloria]

20. Years ago, innocent that I am, I applied for a job at a new Sam's Club

that was opening up. I went through two interviews...during the second I was informed that every morning the crew sang a Sam's Club pep rally song!!

When I got a call for the final interview with the manager, which was basically a formality, I told them I was no longer interested in the job!
The person on the other end of the phone was SHOCKED, SHOCKED that I would refuse this glorious opportunity!

F**CK, them, I wouldn't be caught DEAD singing some shitty song in praise of WalMart/Sam's Club!! No mind control for me!!

[onecitizen]

21. Yes I care...........

I won't shop there anymore. I started to wean myself away just cause I didn't much care for the atmosphere there. THEN, they started with the SUPER Walmarts!! Well that was more than I could bear. Then, I start finding out all these despicable business practices and how they PUSH themselves into neighborhoods where they're not wanted. And then the horrible way they treat their employees. So no more Walmart or Super-Walmarts for me.

[buddhamama]

25. the change may come

from a different angle. people are starting,very slowly, to wake up to the failures of Free Trade. the jobs going out of the country is hitting home. if there were to be a backlash, surely this would affect Wal-Mart who sells nothing but cheap labored goods from outside of the U.S.

just a thought. but to answer your question, yeah i care!

[A HERETIC I AM]

29. It will come. It might be slow, it might not...but it WILL come

Remember A & P Stores? The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company had something of a monopoly in the early part of the 1900's. Seems i read somewhere they had 80% of the urban supermarket business in this country at one point. Sears was the same way. They had a MASSIVE share of the "dry Goods" market in this country. i in no way think Sears and Roebuck was EVER even close to being as bad as Wal-Mart, only pointing out that large companies come and go.

[camero]

28. We could try 2 things

1. Attend local meetings and force local officials to enforce thier zoning laws. They more often than not are changed to help Wal- Mart out.

2. Advocate Unionization of Wal-Mart employees. This probably won't come to pass until there is a Dem Pres and congress.

[ldoolin]

38. Camero just said what the answer is...

2. Advocate Unionization of Wal-Mart employees.
2. Advocate Unionization of Wal-Mart employees.
2. Advocate Unionization of Wal-Mart employees.
2. Advocate Unionization of Wal-Mart employees.
2. Advocate Unionization of Wal-Mart employees.

Something that will take an all-out effort. Trying to organize one single store at a time won't work because Wal-Mart will just close any store that successfully votes to unionize, and they can pour all their union-busting resources into one place.

I'm proposing that Wal-Mart be targeted for unionization of the entire company. Every single store. All at once.

After that I propose we go after Home Depot next...

[camero]

41. We also have to change the law

that allows companies to replace striking workers. Taft-Hartley Act?

[ldoolin]

42. Yes...

I'd love to see Taft-Hartley repealed, and I'd love to see the Democratic Party make its repeal a priority. Getting card-check recognition passed in more states, and repealing state right-to-work laws would also be a big help.

I do think it can be overcome though. Taft-Hartley has been on the books since 1947 and there have been many successful unionization drives since then. Wal-Mart is admittedly a very big fish to catch, maybe one of the biggest that has ever been attempted. But I think it could be done. An all-out drive to unionize Wal-Mart would do wonders to revive the labor movement.

[camero]

44. I had heard on the radio recently

That it's not just the fact that the new jobs are redundant that we mourn the loss of manufacturing, but that the new jobs are low pay with no benefits and unionizing the Wal-Mart Employees would create a chain affect through the rest of the industry.

People don't complain much about jobs that allow you to have a decent standard of living.

[brainshrub]

204. Let me pick apart your arguement.

On point #2. I agree.

On point #2. I also agree.

On point #2. I am stunned at the lucidity of your insight.

On point #2. I agree 100%.

On point #2. Is the Pope Catholic?

As to the next three paragraphs of your post, I think you are right-on. Amen!

[Hypoxis]

64. You people don't understand

Communities WANT Wal-Mart. Shoppers WANT Wal-Mart. People vote with their dollars, and Wal-Mart is the most successful retailer in the history of the world.

[camero]

65. When the power of labor and business is equal

Then I may believe you. But it is not so we have to make it equal.

[IrateCitizen]

68. I wouldn't go quite that far...

Many communities don't want Wal-Mart, but they force their way in anyway. How else could you explain the multitude of campaigns AGAINST them, and the ways in which Wal-Mart has tried to act "above the law"? In many instances, they even build their stores w/o proper permits, realizing that the fines they pay will be far less than the revenue they take in.

Also, do you not realize that the reason that many communities enact these campaigns against Wal-Mart is because they have seen the effects that Wal-Mart has had on communities in which they have gained a foothold?

Many people shop at Wal-Mart in full realization of how bad they are -- simply because Wal-Mart has eliminated all other options through their cutthroat business practices. I count my family among that group.

Perhaps also you could justify the righteousness of a business that destroys three jobs for every two it creates when it moves into a neighborhood? Or how about the way in which they illegally bust-up union organizing efforts?

And while we're at it, do you realize that Wal-Mart is now the #1 employer in the United States, and a full-time "associate" there makes a paltry $15,000 per year, working full time? The #1 employer 30 years ago was General Motors -- a company that paid their employees a good wage with good benefits, the kind of company that helped establish a vibrant middle class in the post WWII years. Is this the kind of "progress" that you think is good for the country as a whole?

OTOH, why am I even bothering about this with you. Your posts make it clear that you are completely unwilling to listen to any kind of reason or fact on this argument, and are relying completely on misinformation to attempt to justify your stance. But you're in the wrong crowd here to find any "believers".

[JanMichael]

75. I think many low income shoppers are simply unaware...

...of the totality of WalMart's wage and benefit deflation.

They just think they're getting a gallon of Vlasic for $2.97...Not that they're screwing other workers and ultimately themselves.

[IrateCitizen]

89. Some yes, some no...

I can only relate this to family. Over Thanksgiving holiday, my wife and I travelled back to visit my family in rural Western PA. Now, my parents are COMPLETELY aware of many of the issues surrounding Wal-Mart, and how bad of a company they are. But they STILL shop there. When I give them a hard time about it, their response is, "But we don't really have anywhere else nearby to get those things."

Sad truth is, they're right. But it wasn't that way 15-20 years ago. It's gotten more and more that way in the years SINCE Wal-Mart moved in.

Even my 85-year old Grandfather understands somewhat that Wal-Mart is not a good thing -- he even said as much explicitly. But, that still doesn't stop him from going in and buying stuff there. Why? Because there's now nowhere else closeby to go. They've effectively wiped out their competition.

The last time I checked, that wasn't a good thing within a market economy. :shrug:

[camero]

69. Communities want Wal-Mart?

I beg to differ. Here, swallow this:

http://www.ncitel.com/users/claytons/walmart2.html

Ready or Not, Here Comes Wal-Mart
Communities square off against the discount retail chain, even taking their fight to Congress.

By David Clark Scott
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
STURBRIDGE, MASS.

THE little red S.O.S. signs look starkly out of place on the stately leaf-speckled lawns of this quaint New England town. But a Wal-Mart megastore would be even more incongruous here, says Carol Goodwin, a mother of six who is leading the Save Our Sturbridge (S.O.S.) campaign to keep the world's biggest retailer out of town.

''Tourists don't come to Sturbridge to shop at Wal-Mart. They come for the ambiance and flavor of New England. How do you make a three-acre building with 2,000 par king places look colonial?'' Mrs. Goodwin asks.

S.O.S. is the latest of more than 100 civic groups nationwide squaring off against what disparagers call ''Sprawl-Mart.'' The discount chain is becoming a lightning rod for the charged debate about small versus big business, and Americans' lust for low prices versus the NIMBY (not in my backyard) preservationists of Small Town USA.

''There's more to life than cheap underwear. If Wal-Mart costs you the quality of life in your community, is it worth it?'' asks Al Norman, a political organizer who helped keep the discounter out
of Greenfield, Mass., last year.

[Lars39]

84. "You people" ?!?!?

:eyes:

[SaintLouisBlues]

118. Lousy argument

"Wal-Mart is the most successful retailer in the history of the world."

Fish heads and rice is the most popular food in the world. Doesn't mean it's good.

[solinvictus]

181. Chattanooga

Here in Chattanooga, there was an abandoned golf course that was supposed to be designated for a park. Wal Mart, with three other locations within ten miles, wanted it for a new super center. The neighborhood association opposed the new construction because of the established fact that Wal Mart will sell merchandise at a loss to put local competitors out of business. The local bakery, sporting goods store, quick service center, and others, were strongly supported by the neighborhood association. Wal Mart promptly greased the palms of the district's city coucil representative and to ice the cake, our mayor owned the land for the development. Despite the wishes of the community, the Wal Mart is being built. I hate them, I hate their use of slave labor, I hate the cheap crap that they hawk, and I hate the fact that ultimately, they're instrumental in ending the middle class as we've known it.

[juajen]

183. Yeah, and people wanted cigarettes, too

Until they realized they were killers. Of course, it helped that they were addictive, so they are still out there and will be. However, they are now addicting the rest of the world to make up for the fact that their profit margins are down in this country.

Maybe we should start posting signs that say "Warning: Wal-Mart Shopping Can be Hazardous to your Health."

[Karyotin]

211. Can't allow people to decide for themselves, now can we?

Big brother must tell people not to smoke....and where to shop

[camero]

222. You're "free market " is not a free market.

It is merely a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Dork]

186. what the

why do you love wal mart so much. Idiots will shop there and buy their crap and support their crap whether you cheer them on or not. Get a hobby.

[Ksec]

31. Well they have killed our downtown.. classic WalMart

We used to have a really nice downtown area with little shops and nice hometown feel. In the past few years they have all been killed by a Walmart thats about four miles out of town. I went downtown today and it was closed. Everything has shut down and it looks like a ghost town. So what can we do?

[creativelcro]

36. start little shops again?

[Hypoxis]

66. Blaming the shutting down of downtowns on Wal-Mart

is just plain bullshit. Downtowns have been on the decline for 25 years now. The reason is MALLS. People do not want to struggle for a parallel parking spot, cross busy streets, get cold or hot; people want to park easily, and walk into aclimate controlled environment and not have to walk too much. It is a matter of convenience. This fact of retail demographics started before Wal-Mart was out of the midwest.

[camero]

71. Usually you can tell who is a disruptor

By the fact that they don't identify themselves.

[Athletic Grrl]

82. I find that freepers are generally fatter than the normal population.

This post explains a lot. Get off your lazy ass and support small community businesses and take your WalMarts with you.

[camero]

85. Why don't you read my other posts.

No, I don't shop at Wal-Mart. So try reading the whole thread before you decide to attack someone, huh?

[Hypoxis]

178. Why do I want to support inefficient businesses?

Why the fuck do I want to pay 30 bucks for a snow shovel when Wal Mart has the same thing for $10? Why do you think people should be stupid enough to pay more than they need to?

[IrateCitizen]

208. Long-term vs. short-term

That's why. Some of us understand that there are some very nefarious side effects that go along with that $10 snow shovel. Side effects such as:

* Union busting
* Downward pressure on wages
* Destruction of the social fabric of communities
* Monopolization of retail services
* Increased taxes to pay for assistance for workers not making a living wage
* Adverse environmental impacts
* Subversion of democratic process (see G_j's account of trying to stop Wal-Mart in Asheville, NC)

Need I go on? Then again, with you it's probably no use. :eyes:

[Karyotin]

212. Nothing but straw propaganda

'Downward pressure on wages'
Called supply and demand. No such thing as downward pressure

'Destruction of the social fabric of communities'
Bullshit

'Monopolization of retail services'
We don't allow monopolies in this country. Ask Bill Gates

'Increased taxes to pay for assistance for workers not making a living wage'
Let me get this straight: by providing jobs, Wal-Mart is increasing the need for public assistance? What an utterly ridiculous notion. Tell me something did you ever study economics? I did.

'* Adverse environmental impacts'
Bullshit.

' Subversion of democratic process'
I'd say trying to prevent poor people from voting with their feet and their pocketbooks is more like fucking subverting the Democratic process

[IrateCitizen]

217. Methinks you've stumbled onto the wrong forum

Your post is complete bollocks, but I'll refute it anyway just for entertainment.

'Downward pressure on wages'
Called supply and demand. No such thing as downward pressure

FACT: Wal-Mart destroys 3 jobs for every 2 it creates. And they pay a full-time wage that is below the poverty line. What this results in is people competing for fewer jobs at a lower wage. That is downward pressure.

'Destruction of the social fabric of communities'
Bullshit

Nice rebuttal. So I guess you don't have anything meaningful to counter to my assertion about downtown areas becoming boarded-up ghost towns and the homogenization of American culture?

'Monopolization of retail services'
We don't allow monopolies in this country. Ask Bill Gates

Ever go into an area in which Wal-Mart is the ONLY retailer for miles around? There's PLENTY of them in rural America. My parents live in such an area. As for Bill Gates, the last time I checked, the Federal Government was not doing anything meaningful to prohibit Microsoft from taking over the OS market completely. IOW, another falsehood exposed.

'Increased taxes to pay for assistance for workers not making a living wage'
Let me get this straight: by providing jobs, Wal-Mart is increasing the need for public assistance? What an utterly ridiculous notion. Tell me something did you ever study economics? I did.

Well you must have failed Economics then. If Wal-Mart doesn't pay its workers enough money so that they can make a living wage, that means that they have to turn to PUBLIC ASSISTANCE to make ends meet. If their employees don't get health insurance, and they have to go on Medicaid or take their kids to the ER when they get sick, that's coming out of PUBLIC FUNDS. But I guess it's senseless to try and reasonably discuss fact and logic when you're so blind to it.

'* Adverse environmental impacts'
Bullshit.

So, I guess those manufacturing facilities in China that make all of Wal-Mart's goods are operating according to the same environmental standards as they would have to in the US, right? And I guess that the fuel required to ship all of that stuff from China to the US doesn't produce any carbon emissions, right? And I would assume that the "central distributing facility" model used by Wal-Mart doesn't result in any excess emissions required to transport goods over long distances to their stores, as opposed to purchasing locally-manufactured goods, right? Just for the record, "bullshit" is not a valid argument.

' Subversion of democratic process'
I'd say trying to prevent poor people from voting with their feet and their pocketbooks is more like fucking subverting the Democratic process

So, you think that when a local grassroots campaign succeeds in getting Wal-Mart's attempts to enter their community voted down, and Wal-Mart counters with a sustained campaign in which they use their bottomless financial resources to finance PAC's and PR flaks to eventually elect new politicians sympathetic to their wishes, that isn't subverting democratic process? You think that illegally campaigning against union organization isn't subverting democratic process?


Tell you what, I'll scrape up $2.00, and get you a bus fare back to the rock from under which you initially crawled, OK? Have a nice day.

[Hypoxis]

158. Does that mean

you are Homer Simpson?

[JanMichael]

159. No, it means that you've been "outed".

Sorry, shit happens:-)

I give you 10 more posts till...Bye bye:-)

PS~ On the betting thang...You may last longer, I could be mistaken, there have be some savvy cretins hear that confused the mods for...months at times;-)

[Hypoxis]

179. Awww

You going to go cry to the hosts now simply because some people don't buy the anti-capitalist bullshit?

[JanMichael]

193. No brother, I'm anti-feudalist.

I design cities....n=Nuff said, IE. Michael has perhaps the best job ever:-)

I WILL modify once I have the time.

[camero]

199. How about cause we're pro-democracy.

So take your fascism and put it where the sun don't shine.

[juajen]

189. Well, when we moved to Lafayete, La, about 20 years ago,

it's downtown was also practically empty. There was a business base there, lawyers, courthouses, banks, etc., a couple of eateries. About seven years or so ago, a drive to renovate downtown started. Streets were redone, trees and flowers planted, parks built, buildings renovated, etc. It helped that we had Mardi Gras parades that began there; then somewhere around then, Downtown Alive started; a place to party on Friday nights with live bands, etc.

It's really beautiful now and going strong. We have about a dozen new bars and the nightlife is good, some say too good. Tourist shops and restaurants are more numerous. In short, it's a delight to go there. We also have regular Art Walks. We still have malls, wal-marts, targets, etc. on the south and north sides, but going downtown is a real pleasure again. We have a beautiful curving street in the middle of downtown and the trees and parks and outdoor sitting areas are beautiful. They have finished a rebuilding of the old vintage railroad station, which is now being used for that purpose again. Truly charming, and they are still working on downtown. The wonderful French atmosphere is there also, with French street signs, cajun french spoken occasionally, and cajun food abundant. Nice place for walking around on a Sunday, even though a lot of places are shut down. Ya'll come visit, ya hear?

[creativelcro]

32. Well, if they pay local taxes to the city

at least some money stays locally...

[JanMichael]

33. Whoopdie doo.

:puke:

[G_j]

34. LOL

if that article didn't get through to you try this one.

www.commondreams.org/views03/1208-08.htm

The Big Squeeze

[tinrobot]

40. When does Wal-Mart

Officially become a monopoly? After reading that Common Dreams article, it sure sounds like they're getting close. Their business practices are certainly monopolistic.

[G_j]

43. yes doesn't it seem that

many of their practices dwarf Microsoft's? And WM is the world's largest corporation.

[John_Shadows_1]

35. Wal-Mart, Death Star...

... of capitalism.

[Guaranteed]

45. "Indeed, Wal-Mart operates as a massive wealth extractor. Instead of...

...profits staying in town to be reinvested locally, the money is hauled off to Bentonville, either to be used as capital for conquering yet another town or simply to be stashed in the family vaults..."

Sounds like a frickin' virus! Replicate, replicate, REPLICATE!!

[CosmicVortex10]

46. This just shows a lack of knowledge of economics

There is no shame at providing a good at a cheaper price then a competitor. Wal-Mart can afford to do what their doing because they get discounts from buying in bulk, unlike smaller stores. Thats the way its supposed to work. Exactly what is your plan to defeat basic market forces? Price fixing on the goods in the store? Making bulk discounts illegal? Having Wal-mart destroyed? Someone else will simply take their place.

In most all competitive mature industries, the number of competitors always shrinks, but rarely does one gain a monopoly via competition. The only real american monopoly was Alcoa aluminum last century and it only stayed that way as long as it kept its prices realitively low. When it raised prices enough, other competitors jumped in the market seizing on to the profit oppertunities.

Damn people, this bumper sticker economics nonsense has to stop. As long as someone isnt using force or fraud, leave them alone and mind your own buisness. If you dont like Wal-mart, dont shop there or open a store and out-compete them. Lets say it together --- "Its none of my buisness".

[G_j]

47. sorry, hogwash

>"can afford to do what their doing because they get discounts from buying in bulk, unlike smaller stores."

they can afford to do what their doing because they keep wages at the poverty level, keep people part time, practice union busting, get 80% of their clothes from China, and take full advantage of sweat shop labor.

so that's the way it's supposed to work eh?????????????

[camero]

53. Don't forget

3 more things Wal-Mart does to get low prices.

1. Making employees work overtime off the clock.
2. Discrimination of women employees
3. The use of illegal immigrants for cleaning subcontractors.

Low prices is one thing, not necessarily a bad thing.
Exploitation of labor is quite another thing and we should not tolerate that.

[dpibel]

49. I have known

Free-market fundamentalist net-libertarians to post as many as three messages to a thread before tipping their hands with the majik code words "force and fraud."

This is not such an instance.

[JanMichael]

50. Damn nothing. Go ahead, live in a stinking low-wage crap society.

Wait a minute, we're already halfway there.

"Damn people, this bumper sticker economics nonsense has to stop."

No, this Feudalistic bullshit has to STOP.

"As long as someone isnt using force or fraud, leave them alone and mind your own buisness. If you dont like Wal-mart, dont shop there or open a store and out-compete them."

Silly boy, or girl, every society has a right to challenge or change the business landscape. Regardless of your ass backwards opinions.

"Lets say it together --- "Its none of my buisness"."

Ha! My Country, the World, Humanity, IS EVERYONE'S BUSINESS!

Unless they're a provential hack.

[Beaker]

52. "force and fraud"

It may not be military force(not yet anyway) but wallyworld definitely does exert a lot of pressure and a lot of heavy leaning on it's suppliers to get things done their way, and at their price.
As for "fraud"...IMHO, selling things at below cost in order to drive a competitor out of business qualifies, and is a wallyworld specialty.

[G_j]

55. this holiday season

toys are WM's 'loss leader'. Say goodbye to Toys R Us, the mom and pop toy stores having already bitten the dust. :hi:

[Beaker]

60. you mean "loss" leader, and you're right.

one department of their store at a time, they can (and are/will) undercut and kill off not just the moms-and-pops, but even the large, nationwide specialty chains as well.

they. are. evil.

[Hypoxis]

56. Great, GREAT post!!!

I know for a fact so many poor people who are able to stretch their meager dollars by shopping at Wal-Mart. Why don't we ask THEM what they think of Wal-Mart.
As for the low wage strawman, let me say what I alway say. "This is America. It is a free country. If you don't like working somewhere, by God, no one has a gun to your head making you do so. Please go to work elsewhere at a place more to your liking."

[Beaker]

58. there are none so blind...

as those who will not see.

[camero]

63. I guess you like to play tackle football against children

Because that is what you are doing when you advocate for Wal-Mart and free trade.

Children need to be getting an education, not working like they do in foriegn countries that supply Wal-Mart.

Anybody who thinks that repubs would not try to return to the days of child labor are worse than foolish. It's already happening.

[Q]

70. You sound like a RWing, slave labor apologist...

...but your shit only flies with those who dont' care about American workers and families. You're trying a bit too hard to defend the indefensible.

[Hypoxis]

167. Perhaps you need to explain why you don't like

poor people saving money.

[camero]

171. You should tell me what your problem is with

Rich people giving poor people money for thier work. Instead of shit.

[rman]

79. go work elsewhere - plenty US jobs in China; migrate

it's no great surprise that you find this a great, great post.

why don't you ask how these people came to be poor to begin with?
couldn't have anything to do with US jobs moving overseas?

[Hypoxis]

168. So you think people in other countries

shouldn't be allowed to make livelihoods?

[camero]

170. Oh, they have a livelyhood alright

if they could just keep from getting run over by a TANK.

[IrateCitizen]

209. Or murdered when they try to organize a union.

Not to mention actually have access to clean drinking water rather than have industrial waste dumped directly into their supply.

Making enough money so that they could actually afford three meals a day would be nice, too.

[ignatius]

57. They get discounts from buying in bulk, unlikde

the new and unimproved Medicare plan.

[ldoolin]

72. "Let's say it together"

Ketchup is a vegetable
The Contras are the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers
Iraq has weapons of mass destruction
Abortion is murder
Liberals hate America
Cutting taxes and increasing military spending will erase the debt
Build more prisons and crime will go away
Richard Nixon was not a crook
Wal-Mart is none of my business


----

Sorry, but an injury to one is an injury to all, and when Wal-Mart uses coercion (i.e. FORCE) to prevent their workers from forming unions, and buys products made with third world sweatshop labor (i.e. FRAUD) to undercut the competition, they're everybody's business.

[rman]

77. Lets say it together - "my community *is* my business".

It *is* a shame to move manufaturing to (dictatorial- where's the dictator-fighting Bush man now?) -China while unemployment in the US is on the rise, and sell these cheap-labour 'American' made-in-China products at prices local US business can't hope to compete with, while profits end up in the hands of a few.

And it is beyond comprehension that some claim this is none of your/my business.

[philosophie_en_rose]

161. **Applause**

n/t

[Hypoxis]

180. *And let's say THIS together*

"People have the right to shop wherever they fucking please. If you don't like Wal Mart, don't shop there, but by God, leave the millions of people who vote with their feet and with their dollars, the hell alone."

[camero]

184. In think you should read the bottom of the thread, really

Especially the post that says "weep". And see what the situation really is instead of living in a fantasy world.

[solinvictus]

203. Wal Mart

The reason Wal Mart can afford to engage in predatory pricing; that is selling items below cost in select areas, is that it directly subsidizes Red China as it is their number one customer. Every penny spent in Wal Mart is a blow against Chinese freedom as suppliers use political prisoners as labor. If you support Wal Mart, you support slavery.

[ignatius]

54. Walmart sickens me. I don't shop there, and badmouth them as

much as possible. My son and his friends no longer shop there and 2 of my co-workers have joined against them.

They symbolize the greed,breakdown of community, and the lack of value of labor by big business, IMHO.

The sale of the soul of America.

[gpandas]

74. WalMart, et al

The American consumer has always voted with his wallet. The first industry to die on the altar of cheap foreign labor was the shoe industry. Then came textiles, quickly followed by automobiles and steelmaking. Remember the old "Buy American" campaigns that were laughed out by the American consumer? Corporate interests, bouyed by profits from this cheap labor, took on the unions in this country with the mantra of 'becoming competitive'. We now live in a time that has productivity increases and average wage decreases, a time when both parents have to work, either to make ends meet, or to accumulate treasures that an insidious advertising industry has made us believe we need. The American consumer has never had a social conscience, and never will.

[IrateCitizen]

96. Sadly, you're dead-on with respect to the current reality

but I like to remain a tad bit more optimistic with regards to the future than you. Those of us who have come to reject the consumerist view of society have to.

BTW -- I noticed on your profile that one of your hobbies is reading. Ever read the book Affluenza on this very subject? How about The Politics of Meaning by Michael Lerner? I highly recommend them both.

And also, welcome to DU!!! :bounce:

[Dissenting_Prole]

80. James Howard Kunstler wrote this morning...

 "In the same issue of the Sunday New York Times, in the Week in Review section, was a front-page story titled "Is WalMart good for America?" The whole question was idiotically reduced to the question of pricing and market share vis-a-vis other chains. No mention was made of the fantastic destruction of middle-class social capital and of local community civic infrastructure by the onslaught of predatory Big Box swarm organisms the past 30 years. No mention was made of the desolation of American towns, or the loss of occupational niches, or social roles. Or of the stupendous massacre of the American landscape. No mention was made of foreign labor conditions that Americans would never tolerate in our own country. And the conclusion of the article seemed to be that whatever the unmentioned pernicious externalities might be, Americans probably are better off being able to buy cheap hair dryers. Better off than what?"

more....

http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary9.html

[oc2002]

83. Wall mart or Kmart, Whats the difference?

I have never set foot in a Wallmart, and have heard horrible stories about them for years, not that it changes anything.

My question is, whats the big deal between Wallmart and a Kmart(they still around?)?

There have always been these cheesey lowest cost, low profit margin, bulk sales stores around. I am sure Kmart was just a cheap, and low paid workers as Walmart.

So whats new?

[JanMichael]

92. Did you read the article? That would've answered your questions.

:-)

[Touchdown]

97. I worked at K-Mart in college

They weren't very good, but compared to the stories I've heard from W-M employees, we K-Marters were treated like gold. $5.20 an hour in 1989. Someone else will have to convert that to Todays dollars.

*K-Mart doesn't have a Jim Jones cult chant every morning.
*K-Mart pays employees for every hour they work, even overtime.
*K-Mart pays, and promptly, workers comp (I know. I hurt my back there, and I couldn't complain about the Dr. services).
*K-Mart pays commission on electronincs sales.
*I've never seen an anti-union video at K-Mart.
*Women and men get paid the same at K-Mart.
*K-Mart (at least had in the early 90s) affordable health care plans for employees.
*K-Mart doesn't pretent that they're the "All American Store". They know they sell cheap crap, and don't try to hide that fact.
*K-Mart paid a premium to work on Sundays.
*K-Mart builds in inner cities, that have fallen victim to urban blight. W-M only builds on the outskirts of town.

So, is there a difference? Some W-M emmploee willl have to ante up.

[David_REE]

86. MANY poor people depend on WalMart prices.

Nobody here is defending their ability to put shoes on their kids' feet?

[camero]

87. Thier ability to put shoes on kids feet

Would be better if they paid thier employees a LIVABLE WAGE. Not by sucking the rest of the world down with them.

[philosophie_en_rose]

163. Walmart does not fight poverty!!!

Walmart extracts every ounce of dignity from its employees. It uses minorities and seniors as mascots (ever see one in management?). It pays its employees so little that they are forced to shop there. Thus, they work for the amount Walmart pays for that cheap shit.

There is nothing admirable about Walmart. Walmart exploits and perpetuates poverty. Only the legal system will break its stranglehold. I admire the women and men that are standing up for their rights.

Walmart likes poor customers like Rush Limbaugh likes oxycotin - for dinner.

[camero]

169. Are you talking to me? Or the poster above.

Because I am arguing that Wal-Mart should pay thier people better.
Geesh, this is the second time I have had to do this. Read the thread.
Not just the subject.

[philosophie_en_rose]

173. Poster Above You! (Sorry!)

So sorry! I had two windows open at the same time and this thread is huge! I clicked the wrong the "reply" button.

:dunce:

[camero]

175. it's all right

These large threads can get confusing sometimes. Plus it's an intellectual battle. A very good one today.

[Beaker]

88. and in medieval times, many serfs depended on the feudal lord-

It's a future we seem destined to repeat.

[JanMichael]

93. Wow! What a huge number of pro-cheap labor posters!

This thread must have been linked over on the "Right" side of the web.

PS~ With low post counts:eyes:

[camero]

94. They seem to come out of the woodwork, don't they?

:eyes:

[camero]

95. Here's a good site with ways to stop Wal-Mart

http://www.lawmall.com/wal-mart/

With lots of links to boot.

[Nederland]

99. Nonsense

No one voted for this ... but there it is.

People do get to vote on whether or not they want a Walmart. They vote with their feet every time they walk into the fucking store.

[camero]

100. Actually they don't

Zoning laws in towns are often changed to accomodate Wal-Mart with almost no public input.

[Nederland]

102. MIssing my Point

People are not forced to shop there.

They walk into the store of their own free will.

Regardless of what political manuverings enabled the store to be built, if no one shopped there it would go out of business.

[camero]

104. And when it's practically the only game in town?

Then what? Alot of Wal-Marts are the only thing close in some suburbs.

[Nederland]

106. Still missing the point

Before the Walmart gets built people must be shopping somewhere, right?

So why did they stop shopping where they did before and start shopping at Walmart?

Answer: They are clueless and don't realize that they are harming thenselves in the long run. Hence the title of this thread.

[camero]

111. Your missing mine also

Consumers always go for the lowest price. But Wal-Mart practices the domestic equivalent of dumping. Go to post #95, click the link, and scroll down the page to the 1936 Price Discrimination Law.

Their prices are deliberately designed to create a Monopoly.

[Nederland]

113. Response

Consumers always go for the lowest price.

Yes they do, and that is the root of the problem.

But Wal-Mart practices the domestic equivalent of dumping. Go to post #95, click the link, and scroll down the page to the 1936 Price Discrimination Law.

Walmart does not practice dumping. Dumping is the practice of temporarily selling goods at below costs with the intent of destroying competition. Walmart does not sell goods below costs, therefore it does not engage in dumping.

[camero]

115. Did you even look at the link?

I didn't say they engaged in dumping, I said the equivalent of dumping. So, by your token China does not dump because they produce goods at thier cost. They deliberately set thier prices to drive competitors out of business so they can monopolize the market and there is a law designed to prevent that.

Only our government decides to ignore enforcement and Wal-Mart decides to break the law.

[Nederland]

116. Response

Either they are dumping or they are not. Either they are breaking the law or they are not. Stop this nonsense of saying what they are doing is "the equivalent of dumping". What they are doing is trying to get the best wholesale price from their suppliers and lowering their retail costs accordingly. What are you going to do, make that illegal? Force Walmart to sell at a higher price so its profits are even larger? LOL!

[camero]

117. They are breaking the law, read it

Wal-Mart's Growth Is Simply a Failure of Our Federal Government to
Enforce the 1936 Federal Law Prohibiting Price Discrimination. The Robinson-Patman Act.

[Nederland]

120. Question

Which section of the law are they breaking?

http://www.lawmall.com/rpa/rpastats.html

[camero]

125. Link

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0842115.html

Robinson-Patman Act, passed by the U.S. Congress in 1936 to supplement the Clayton Antitrust Act. The act, advanced by Congressman Wright Patman, forbade any person or firm engaged in interstate commerce to discriminate in price to different purchasers of the same commodity when the effect would be to lessen competition or to create a monopoly. Sometimes called the Anti-Chain-Store Act, this act was directed at protecting the independent retailer from chain-store competition, but it was also strongly supported by wholesalers eager to prevent large chain stores from buying directly from the manufacturers for lower prices.

[camero]

127. More evidence

15 U.S.C. Section 13 - Discrimination in price, services, or facilities.

(a) Price; selection of customers. It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them: Provided, That nothing herein contained shall prevent differentials which make only due allowance for differences in the cost of manufacture, sale, or delivery resulting from the differing methods or quantities in which such commodities are to such purchasers sold or delivered: Provided, however, That the Federal Trade Commission may, after due investigation and hearing to all interested parties, fix and establish quantity limits, and revise the same as it finds necessary, as to particular commodities or classes of commodities, where it finds that available purchasers in greater quantities are so few as to render differentials on account thereof unjustly discriminatory or promotive of monopoly in any line of commerce; and the foregoing shall then not be construed to permit differentials based on differences in quantities greater than those so fixed and established: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent persons engaged in selling goods, wares, or merchandise in commerce from selecting their own customers in bona fide transactions and not in restraint of trade: And provided further, That nothing herein contained shall prevent price changes from time to time where in response to changing conditions affecting the market for or the marketability of the goods concerned, such as but not limited to actual or imminent deterioration of perishable goods, obsolescence of seasonal goods, distress sales under court process, or sales in good faith in discontinuance of business in the goods concerned. :hi:

[SaintLouisBlues]

126. Yes walmart sells below cost; read it and weep Nederland

Date: October 12, 1993
Dateline: CONWAY, ARK.

CONWAY, Ark. - The nation's largest retailer sold merchandise below cost in an effort to drive competitors out of business, a
judge ruled today.

Chancery Judge David Reynolds ordered Wal-Mart Stores Inc. to stop selling drugs and health and beauty aids below cost at its
store in Conway.

The ruling was in a lawsuit filed by three local pharmarcies that accused Wal-Mart of "predatory pricing" to drive them out of
business.

The judge said the local Wal-Mart store violated the state's Unfair Practices Act by advertising and selling pharmaceuticals and
health and beauty aids below cost "for the purpose of injuring competitors and destroying competition."

An appeal to the state Supreme Court is likely, since the case involves the first test of the Unfair Practices Act.

http://www.harbornet.com/pna/WalMart/pricing.html

[Nederland]

131. Not weeping

This ruling was overturned by the Arkansas Supreme Court in 1995.

[SaintLouisBlues]

136. So you are happy?

Why was it overturned, BTW?

[camero]

132. I think the cat got his tongue

State and Federal Law they are breaking.

[Nederland]

137. Don't you hate it

...when you post just a few seconds too slow? :)

[camero]

139. Weep

http://www.wal-martlitigation.com/currentd.htm

Wal-Mart Reaches Settlement in Pricing Complaint — Wisconsin. Wal-Mart has agreed to comply with Wisconsin’s fair pricing law to settle a complaint filed by the state last year alleging that Wal-Mart was selling some items below cost to drive out competitors. Wisconsin law forbids stores from selling items below cost if they are doing so to unfairly attract business from competitors. The state charged Wal-Mart last year with illegally cutting prices at stores in Beloit, Oshkosh, Racine, Tomah and West Bend, Wisconsin. Bill Oemichen, the Wisconsin Trade and Consumer Protection administrator, said that Wal-Mart had been warned four times since 1993 to stop the practice of violating the state’s fair pricing law before the state filed the complaint. He said that Wal-Mart would use below-cost prices on dairy, tobacco and cleaning products to attract customers to its stores. Wal-Mart did not admit any wrongdoing in the settlement announced on August 13 and will not pay a penalty. However, if Wal-Mart violates the agreement during the next year, it could pay double and triple the regular fines. As part of the settlement, Wal-Mart will (1) make a $15,000 donation to a high school consumer education contest — the cost of Wisconsin’s investigation; and (2) create an internal price tracking system that state auditors can examine to ensure it is complying with the agreement. Wal-Mart spokesman Bill Wertz said that the system is in place, and the agreement would not fundamentally alter the way Wal-mart does business. “We have made some changes to our record keeping in Wisconsin and reiterated our desire to price our products as low as possible within the law,” Wertz said. Wal-Mart operates 74 Wal-Mart and Sam’s Club stores in Wisconsin, employing nearly 21,000 people.

[SaintLouisBlues]

143. I'll get your back with "cat got your tongue" this time

I also have anecdotal evidence from a (former) shopkeep that was specifically targeted by the Bensonville Goons.

[camero]

144. Thank you, lol

I must have been .01 secs too early. Took a bit, but I managed to find a case.

[Nederland]

145. Well Done

Nice post. It seems that Walmart is guilty of dumping, at least in one state.

However, I fail to see have that contradicts my original point that at a fundamental level people do have a choice as to whether or not to have a Walmart in their area. If they don't want a Walmart, they shouldn't shop there. Eventually it will go out of business.

The problem is people aren't smart enough to understand the full effect of their choices.

[IrateCitizen]

146. That's some faith in the common man you have there, Nederland

The problem is people aren't smart enough to understand the full effect of their choices.

This is funny, coming from someone who below tried to accuse me of having no faith in "common people" -- at least not as much as you.

I would say a more accurate statement is that most people aren't informed enough to fully understand the full effect of their choices.

But hey, according to you I have no faith in "common people", so what do I know anyway? :eyes:

[camero]

148. Actually, that is a very good point

Most people are not aware of Marx's theory of the destructive effects of Unregulated Capitalism. Only that he was a "bad man".

Thanks to our educational system.

[Nederland]

149. I was being sarcastic

People understand full well what they are doing. They are choosing to go where goods are cheaper, as is their right.

[IrateCitizen]

210. But in many cases without fully knowing the consequences

and that is the problem.

[camero]

147. In the urban areas, yes, I agree

But in the smaller towns where these practices occur and choice is limited, you can't just blame consumers. It is also a distortion of market forces and anti-democratic.

Also, 2 or 3 big companies basically colluding on prices after smaller firms have been eaten up is also a monopoly and limits consumer choices.

Edit: Thank you for the compliment. It's a good debate. There are other cases pending against them.

[Nederland]

150. Questions

I grant you that Walmart is probably guilty of anti-competitive business practices. However, do you honestly believe that what is going on is entirely the result of unfair business practices? I ask because I would argue that what we are seeing with Walmart is primarily a technological revolution in retail. Much like the shift away from small family farms that happened in the first half of the 20th century, retail is changing. Just like family farms plowed by a team of horses could not compete with mechanized farms, Mom and Pop stores simply cannot compete with the smooth efficiency of the targeted marketing and just in time inventory systems pioneered by Sam Walmart and others. In this sense, the demise of the Mom and Pop store is inevitable.

Just like the demise of the family farm engendered a strong political and populist backlash, the current trend is angering people who are being hurt by the change. However, can anyone argue that the mechanization of farming wasn't, in the long run, a tremendous boon to America? Does anyone seriously argue that we would be better off going back to the days where 90%+ of the population engaged in farming because that's how many people it took to produce all the food the country required? Yes, Walmart creates only 2 jobs for every three it destroys. You know what that is called? An increase in efficiency. It may be cruel when you are the one on the block, but in the long run we all benefit from increases in efficiency and productivity.

I don't mean to belittle the suffering that people are going through as a result of these changes. Rather, I simply disagree with the solutions that people here are proposing. Trying to fight Walmart and preserve Mom and Pop stores is about as futile and misdirected as trying to save the animal powered farm. What we need is to retrain the people that lose their jobs so they can do something else, not preserve an inefficient and dying form of business.

Would you agree?

[camero]

151. Not entirely

Most of the increase in efficiency is due to union busting, discrimination, manipulation of town officials, and thier "No Settle" policy when cases come to litigation. You really should read that link. They have lost almost 100 cases in the last 4 years.

Not to mention thier hiring of illegal immigrants through subcontractors and increased manipulation of suppliers.

I agree it is changing society, but most of the changes in farming were due to technological innovation and yes, farm subsidies, so farmers could afford the equipment to increase output.

The Wal-Mart change is not technological as it is still a labor intensive industry and always will be. The main effect is social and economic as they are constantly pushing to eliminate worker rights.

Much the same debate that we are having on globalization.

[Nederland]

152. Last Question

Most of the increase in efficiency is due to union busting, discrimination, manipulation of town officials, and thier "No Settle" policy when cases come to litigation.

Am I to understand that you actually believe that if Walmart did not engage in these practices, Mom and Pop stores would be able to compete with them? If so, I guess its best to say that you and I simply disagree. The Walmart revolution is a technological one--how else could it sell more goods than Mom and Pop stores using fewer people?

[camero]

154. They use more people.

The supply chain is much bigger for Wal-mart than for the mom and pops. The only technological change is for electronic self-service registers. I say this as formerly being a part of that supply chain driving a big rig.

Small mom and pop stores merely do not have the capital to expand thier inventory. With subsidies and loans, or grants, they possibly could. Our whole crony capitalist system (I am not wholly against capitalism, just the monopolistic kind) largely benefits the larger entity.

The supply chain is much larger with the big stores and they have more room to extract concessions from each part of the chain. Which means each part must pay workers less with less benefits to insure thier profit margins. It's a downward spiral.

You think a 100 lb guy can beat up a 300 lb guy? I'm not saying it's impossible but it's unlikely. That's where we disagree.

[JanMichael]

157. This sums it up: "You think a 100 lb guy can beat up a 300 lb guy?"

Some selfish, uninformed, people think that's a "level" palying field!

It's a damned GOOD thing that Progressives make it a point to back up the 100lb gal with a club, because the 300lb assholes don't understand anything beyond Force, regardless if it's Economic or Physical.

[Nederland]

177. They don't use more people!

They use less! The quote about how Walmart eliminates three jobs for every two it creates comes from the opening post of this thread writing by JanMichael, who is on your side of this issue, not mine. And if you think that the only technological change that Walmart introduced is electronic self-service registers, you are sorely out of touch. Its use of technology to streamline inventories and create an extremely efficient supply chain has been quickly co-opted by rivals like Target and K-Mart and represents the way that all retail will be done in the future.

[camero]

188. They eliminate 3 DECENT jobs

The whole is much bigger than the sum of its parts. And retail is retail. It will not be done any differently until someone figures out how to automate the whole store, make trucks drive themselves, get robots to load the trucks, and to do quality control.

You cannot compare it to farming because it has had more technological change.

A better comparison would be Wal-Mart doing groceries against Albertson's, Publix, and Food Lion. Most of which use unionized labor.
So, they're not just shutting the mom and pops out, they are trying to shut the big boys out too. Wal-Mart is the 800lb gorilla of our economy.

No, I'm not out of touch because that and price scanners are the only high tech gadgets I see in the stores and on the road. They can't get goods to market faster because thier trucks are set at 55mph. You still need stock clerks and meat cutters and salespeople. Also security. They have bigger buildings which use more electricity and take up more land. An inefficient use of resources, I might add. And add to traffic woes, thus costing society more than they save.

They eliminiate 3 jobs for every two M&P stores is because 2 stores close for every one Wal-Mart that goes up. Maybe you should take a good look at the industry before you comment on it.

[camero]

190. And the big thing that ties into all this

The consolidation of the trucking industry. Small carriers getting eaten up by JB Hunt and Swift because they use much the same tactics as Wal-Mart uses in the retail industry. They also use unsafe and inexperienced drivers in unsafe conditions. Those are just 2 carriers that Wal-Mart have big contracts with.

While the independent driver that is just trying to make a living gets his truck and house taken from him because the big carriers can do it much cheaper.

So, they're not just making a monopoly in the retail business. They're making monopolies all over the country.

BTW: So, don't tell me what I know and what I don't know. Because I was there. For 6 years.

[IrateCitizen]

105. And if the free market were left to its own devices...

... then everything would suddenly become a utopia.

Problem is, neither of these are realities in what the rest of us refer to as the REAL WORLD, because in the REAL WORLD there is not a starting position of equality (as Adam Smith stated was truly necessary for the proper functioning of the free market).

Without this condition of equality, between not only individuals but also between the consumer and seller of goods, the market is destined to fail. And in Wal-Mart's case, it fails miserably.

* Competition is run out of business, resulting in an effective monopoly.
* Consumers are not made readly aware of the greater affects of their purchases at Wal-Mart through misinformation and apathy.
* Attempts to stop Wal-Mart through political means are overcome by the use of large sums of money to subvert democracy.

Need I go on?

Contrary to what your guru Milton Friedman has written, corporations DO have responsibilities other than returning maximum profit to their shareholders -- and it is the role of government to enforce that responsibility, which is promoting the GENERAL WELFARE. Such is the basis of the social contract upon which society is formed. If that is removed, then the decline of civil society is not far behind (or currently underway, as in the case of the US circa 2003).

[Nederland]

110. Nice Strawman

Now answer the question.

Is it or is it not true that Walmart would go out of business if nobody shopped there?

[IrateCitizen]

123. It's not a strawman, it's a comparative argument

But I'll state my agreement with something you posted above in your exchange with camero -- that a big part of the problem is that many consumers don't realize that they're shooting themselves in the long run by shopping at Wal-Mart.

So, the next question becomes: how do we prevent that from occurring in the first place?

A good start is through organization -- citizens banding together in towns to oppose Wal-Mart even finding their way in, citing their predatory business practices and harm to communities. More often than not, groups like this are made up of the kinds of people who take democracy a little more seriously than just some exercise in consumerism. They're made up by people who are well aware of the long-term dangers of embracing short-term lower prices by allowing Wal-Mart to take hold in their community. It seems that G_j was one of the people who took this tack in Asheville, NC.

But the problem then becomes the fact that Wal-Mart has nearly bottomless pockets. They engage in massive misinformation campaigns. They use their financial clout to essentially buy elections in small towns and cities. In short, they subvert the democratic process. The one area in which people SHOULD have the ability to stand up for their communities and stop Wal-Mart, they're undermined.

The end result? People are left with no redress against Wal-Mart. They're like the fucking Borg -- their entire purpose is assimilation and destruction.

Consumers aren't helping in this matter -- that much is for certain. But a certain amount of blame also needs to be laid at the feet of the company that engages in this kind of predatory business practice, along with the government watchdogs who have fallen asleep and allowed it to happen unstopped.

Therein lies our outrage against Wal-Mart. You should be able to see that from the other posts on this thread.

[Nederland]

129. Response

But I'll state my agreement with something you posted above in your exchange with camero -- that a big part of the problem is that many consumers don't realize that they're shooting themselves in the long run by shopping at Wal-Mart.

Agreed

So, the next question becomes: how do we prevent that from occurring in the first place?

A good start is through organization -- citizens banding together in towns to oppose Wal-Mart even finding their way in, citing their predatory business practices and harm to communities. More often than not, groups like this are made up of the kinds of people who take democracy a little more seriously than just some exercise in consumerism. They're made up by people who are well aware of the long-term dangers of embracing short-term lower prices by allowing Wal-Mart to take hold in their community. It seems that G_j was one of the people who took this tack in Asheville, NC.

Agreed.

But the problem then becomes the fact that Wal-Mart has nearly bottomless pockets. They engage in massive misinformation campaigns. They use their financial clout to essentially buy elections in small towns and cities. In short, they subvert the democratic process. The one area in which people SHOULD have the ability to stand up for their communities and stop Wal-Mart, they're undermined.

The end result? People are left with no redress against Wal-Mart. They're like the fucking Borg -- their entire purpose is assimilation and destruction.

This is where we disagree. You don't trust the general population. You believe that they are "like the fucking Borg" and in need of people like you to protect them from themselves. I, however, have faith that in the long run the common person is completely capable of taking care of themsleves and deciding what is best for them. I believe and trust the common person. You do not.

Now who believes in democracy more?

[IrateCitizen]

130. Nice misrepresentation

You don't trust the general population. You believe that they are "like the fucking Borg" and in need of people like you to protect them from themsleves. I, however, have faith that in the long run the common person is completely capable of taking care of themsleves and deciding what is best for them. I believe and trust the common person. You do not.

Now who belives in democracy more?

I believe in the general population, so long as they are able to gain access to accurate information. As far as Wal-Mart is concerned, they are rarely able to have equal access to accurate information.

As far as the "Borg" comment, I was referring to Wal-Mart, NOT the general populace. I really don't understand how you misconstrued that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake.

My point is simply that it is up to INFORMED and INVOLVED citizens to INFORM and ORGANIZE those who are more apathetic and less involved. That's the way that grassroots democracy has always worked. But it is much, much more difficult to carry out when you are in a situation in which Wal-Mart has bottomless financial and legal resources at their disposal, as compared to grassroots groups that are often forced to operate on a shoestring budget and through volunteer action. It's hardly a fair fight -- as completely evidenced by the account in Asheville, NC posted by G_j, which I excerpted and you, as yet, have failed to comment on.

I believe and trust the common person. You do not.

Now who belives in democracy more?

It's funny that you, of all people, should say something like this. I seem to recall a discussion we had some time back about economic democracy, and you said that innovation came about as a result of extraordinary people forcing that innovation on their workers -- and that their workers would not embrace such innovation on their own.

To clarify for you, the example you gave was Steve Jobs and the early development of Apple Computers into a powerhouse in the 1980's.

I, of course, took the opposing view that a society can only be truly democratic if it experienced both political AND economic democracy, because the two cannot be separated.

But if it serves your case better to pick and choose the instances in which you will champion "democracy" and those in which you will not, go right ahead. Just don't expect to get away with it without being called on it.

[Nederland]

134. Question

I believe in the general population, so long as they are able to gain access to accurate information.

And who decides what consists of "accurate" information? You? Who gets to decide if the people have the "correct" assessment of the situation? You? I suspect that these questions, like my original question about whether or not people were forced to shop at Walmart, will remain unanswered.

BTW, yes, I didn't catch the fact that your Borg reference was aimed at Walmart.

[IrateCitizen]

135. Response

First, I will readily acknowledge that Wal-Mart will not remain in business if nobody shops there. It's a simple equation, if a purely theoretic one.

As for "accurate" information, the best way to receive accurate information is to hear all sides equally and make up your own mind. That's the best definition I can think of, and the only one that I would want to push on somebody else.

But in a turf war over Wal-Mart, I fail to see how you can believe that people are getting adequate information from all sides when you have, on one hand, a corporation with full-time legal staff, public relations people, etc. on the ground, not to mention their bottomless coffers -- and on the other side you have ad-hoc grassroots campaigns staffed completely by volunteers and operating on a shoestring budget fueled solely by individual donations.

And who decides what consists of "accurate" information? You? Who gets to decide if the people have the "correct" assessment of the situation? You?

I honestly don't know where you get this idea that I want to act as final arbiter over all information that reaches the public, but it's completely inaccurate and misplaced. All I want is for the sunlight of accountability to shine upon ALL of our institutions, forcing those who engage illegitimacy, illegality and chicanery to go scuttling like the cockroaches upon society that they are. I would think that such would be obvious from all of the postings that we have exchanged on these boards, but I guess I was mistaken in that regard.

[Nederland]

140. Progress

First, I will readily acknowledge that Wal-Mart will not remain in business if nobody shops there. It's a simple equation, if a purely theoretic one.

Given this, one can reasonably conclude that if a Walmart exists and is doing business in a particular area, it is because a reasonable number of people chose, of their own free will, to have it there. That was my orginal and only point here. The idea that people aren't given a choice is completely false. They do have a choice, they have merely chosen in a way that does not meet with your approval.

I see nothing wrong with giving people choices. If you like Walmart, go ahead and shop there. If you don't like Walmart, don't shop there. Its that simple, and I fail to see what alternative wouldn't infringe on people's rights. What would you do, not allow Walmart to build a store in a community unless a majority of resident's approved?

[IrateCitizen]

141. No, it is far from that simple, Nederland

If you like Walmart, go ahead and shop there. If you don't like Walmart, don't shop there. Its that simple, and I fail to see what alternative wouldn't infringe on people's rights.

All too often, Wal-Mart destroys any other choices of where to shop in an area. Therefore, it only appears initially to be a choice, and ends up as a non-choice. Such is what happened in my family's area.

And since we're talking about 'rights', we have to talk about much more than consumer choice. One on my list is to allow citizens the right to decide what kind of community they want to live in -- one in which there is a vibrant downtown area with a multitude of locally-owned shops mixed with medium-sized department stores, or one in which all goods are sold at the local Wal-Mart, which pays a substandard wage with little or no benefits, and destroys three jobs for every one that is created in the community?

What would you do, not allow Walmart to build a store in a community unless a majority of resident's approved?

I certainly wouldn't allow them to build in a community in which residents have made it quite clear that they do not want them there (like Asheville, NC -- which you STILL have not commented on). I also wouldn't allow them to subvert the democratic process through undue outside influence as they also did in Asheville.

Like the problem we encounter in so many other discussions, you cannot continue to portray these events as happening separately or in a vacuum. They are all related. And once Wal-Mart has been unleashed on a community, it is EXTREMELY difficult for that community to recover once the damage has been done. Wages are depressed, downtowns are boarded up, and all of the money is sucked away to Bentonville, AR to be placed in the Walton heirs' private bank accounts.

[CosmicVortex10]

153. With these attitudes, any business is doomed from the start

Under the antitrust laws, a man becomes a criminal from the moment he goes into business ... if he charges prices some bureaucrats judge as too high, he can be prosecuted for monopoly, or, rather, for successful 'intent to monopolize'; if he charges prices lower than those of his competitors, he can be prosecuted for 'unfair competition' or 'restraint of trade'; and if he charges the same price as his competitors, he can be prosecuted for collusion' or 'conspiracy.'"

Such laws are vague, self-contradictory and elastic--which hands government the ominous, unbridled power to persecute virtually any company it pleases. Such laws serve as a perfect vehicle for envious competitors to enlist political power lusters in government to persecute and "downsize" successful corporations like Wal-Mart--because they are successful.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IrateCitizen]

207. What's your definition of "success" then?

Do you believe that downward pressure on wages is a sign of "success"?

Do you believe that illegal union-busting tactics are a sign of "success"?

Do you believe that destroying the social fabric of long-standing communities, the very thing that makes communities unique, is a sign of "success"?

Do you believe that homogenizing the retail business is a sign of "success"?

Do you believe that having a top national employer that doesn't pay a wage over the poverty line nor offer benefits its employees can afford is a sign of "success"?

Do you believe that using undocumented immigrant labor for as little as $2 per day is a sign of "success"?

Do you believe that encouraging people to work through unreported injuries and then denying them workmen's compensation is a sign of "success"?

Do you believe that forcing employees to work overtime without pay is a sign of "success"?

Do you think that direct subversion of democratic processes when you encounter opposition to setting up shop in a community is a sign of "success"?

Obviously you do, if you are defending Wal-Mart's business practices. Because ALL of the above are documented practices of theirs. Some of us, myself included, measure success by means other than simple profit. We measure success by how much a business or policy helps to promote the general welfare. Contrary to the myth spread by people like yourself, business success is not just based on the bottom line over the long term. And it is the place of government not to act as an agent of big business, to give them everything on their wish list (despite what Republicans might say), but to promote the general welfare.

THAT is the problem that I, personally, have with Wal-Mart -- and why you also just don't get it.

[IrateCitizen]

138. Kick for you, Nederland

I suspect that these questions, like my original question about whether or not people were forced to shop at Walmart, will remain unanswered.

I just wanted to make certain that you saw my answers to your questions, so you couldn't falsely accuse me of failing to respond.

[JanMichael]

156. Remember the the "N" person is a notorious...

..."I must always make the last comment no matter how wrong I may be" type, yes?

I've place "it" on ignore but I'll happily kick your exchanges with "it" up to the top.

[IrateCitizen]

101. Take your corporate apologism elsewhere, Nederland.

See this from Post #17 by G_j. It's far from the only similar story out there.

I spent the better part of two years fighting off a 'Super-Center' here in Asheville NC. We turned them away twice and that was no easy matter. They finally bought and paid for a new City Council, come election time through a PAC.
Now, not only are they building an EXTRA huge 'SC' on the banks of a river here, but we have a horribly regressive City Council (which, needless to say has had all kinds of her nasty repercussions)
I gave just about every thing I had to try to protect our beautiful city from this cancer.

Finally, one of the main reasons that even people who know better shop at Wal-Mart is because Wal-Mart wipes out everything else in the area! This is the reason why my parents still go there once in a while, even though they know full well how bad they are.

Voting requires a real selection among alternatives, something that is lacking after a Wal-Mart comes to town in many instances.

[Nederland]

103. You too?

Please explain how a Walmart could possibly wipe out its competition if everyone in a town refused to shop there and instead continued to shop where they had before the Walmart was built. Explain that to me and then I'll believe your side of the story.

[IrateCitizen]

108. Obviously you have no problem with subversion of democracy

After all, according to the American model, when the US has been faced with a choice between true democracy and capitalism, they have unerringly come down on the side of capitalism.

What I explain to you in the principles of your fantasy world are of no occurence. By the same token, I could ask you to explain to me how Marxism is unrealistic because it distributes the fruits of labor equally so that no person is left wanting.

Please tell me that you have a real problem with this kind of subversion of democracy. Otherwise, your apologia for corporate America has come to border on the delusional.

[Nederland]

109. Nice Dodge

Please explain how a Walmart could possibly wipe out its competition if everyone in a town refused to shop there and instead continued to shop where they had before the Walmart was built.

[IrateCitizen]

124. Response

Please see post #123 above.

Also see posts #74 and #96, above.

[JanMichael]

112. Talk about fucking nonsense! Thanks:-)

The bar is forever raised.

EDIT: I suppose that their use of near wage slave labor in other countries is just dandy with you too?

[Nederland]

114. Response

Amazing how in all the responses to my initial post not one person has actually disproven my point. You call this an intellectual argument?

[JanMichael]

119. Crap. Just lost a meaningful diatribe.

In a nushell: This thread proves what a wage depressing, downtown killing, sweat shop using, union busting, city council twisting, supplier killing, monopolistic, plutocratic, feudalistic, anti-Democratic piece of shit Walmart REALLY is.

So if you don't "get" it by now I'm through discussing this with you. You blindly refuse to admit the reality of the situation, that's intellectual dishonesty. Or intentionally obtuse, either way a waste of my time.

Finis.

Go buy some shit at Walmart and help them depress US Wages.

Arrivefuckingderci.

[Nederland]

122. Goodbye

Given that you refuse to answer even a simple question, I see you're not interested in intellectual debate.

BTW, I don't shop at Walmart because it kills local businesses. You obviously didn't read my post carefully.

[MassDem]

121. I also refuse to shop at Wal-Mart and try to pass

on information about their predatory business practices to everyone I know. I have no problem with free enterprise, but I do have a problem with a company that has a business plan predicated on the impoverishment of great swathes of people, including the people of the United States. A friend of my runs a medium-sized textile firm that has been in his family for over one hundred years and Wal-Mart is literally driving them out of business. They have worked hard over the years to keep their manufacturing plants in the US but you can't manufacture fabrics for Wal-Mart-destined uses cheaply enough in the US if you have a decent environmental record and pay your employees a living wage. Wal-Mart destroys the fabric of communities and families, even while they smile away on TV and offer "low-low prices!". Wal-Mart is a pestilence.

[skippysmom]

128. In our pro-big-business climate

quite frankly, we can't stop them. With policies that allow companies like Wal-Mart to bust unions, engage in violations of the FLSA, etc., our nation is enabling Wal-Mart to become bigger and bigger. And as they become bigger, and chase more jobs out, you create more and more people who have to shop at Wal-Mart because they can't afford to shop elsewhere. It's a vicious circle.

I don't shop at Wal-Mart, and haven't shopped there for 5 years or so. But that is easy for me to do, as I live a good 25 miles from the closest store and I make a good enough living that I don't need to rely on their "low, low prices."

People like my husband's grandmother, who lives on a fixed income in an area where Wal-Mart is the only game in town, have a harder time doing that.

What we need are leaders who will take Wal-Mart without fear. I don't know who they are, but I hope they are somewhere.

We also need to keep shouting about this. Encourage people beyond DU to think of the reality behind those low prices. Fight back when they try to put a Wal-Mart in your hometown.

[Bridget Burke]

142. Well, I've never shopped there....

I live in a big city with lots of other options. Walked into one out of curiosity without having any of the "background" & found it totally depressing. Guess I'm just a Target elitist! (Yes, I patronize small local shops, too.)

Lots of people I work with shop there--NOT the ones I can talk politics with. These are NOT the folks whose kids will go barefoot unless they shop at Walmart.

[David Zephyr]

191. Thanks JanMichael!

I read your linked article and forgot to thank you for posting it here.

Thanks! :hi:

[1songbird]

194. I've been Wal-Mart free for three weeks now.

I'm just taking it one day at a time.

[travisleit01]

201. Me too!!

It feels SOOO good :)

[1songbird]

202. Congratulations!

:toast:

[w4rma]

198. the Red China Retail Outlet (n/t)

[JanMichael]

205. I LIKE that!

It has a nice ring to it.

Red China Retail Outlet

[Aunt Eunice]

220. If poor people can save a few bucks..

..what's the harm?

If WM provides less expensive goods and clothing for the poor, minorities and single women with children, isn't that a good thing?

[JanMichael]

224. I'll assume that you didn't read the attached article.

Which deliniated why WalMart the corporation is an all around wage depressor and anti-Worker entity.

This thread has cited about 100 reasons why it's not in, even the poorest, consumer's benefit to shop there.

But by now I'm sure that you've figured that out:-)

[IrateCitizen]

225. Because Wal-Mart helps create MORE poor people

Wal-Mart is currently the #1 employer in America. Full-time associate pay is a paltry $15,000 per year, without an affordable benefits package. Additionally, in every are that Wal-Mart moves into, 3 jobs are destroyed for every 2 jobs that are created. IOW, Wal-Mart creates a net job LOSS in the areas in which they set up shop.

25 years ago, the #1 employer in the USA was General Motors, which provided its workers a good wage and comprehensive benefits for the worker and their family.

Contrasting these two, I hope you can see how Wal-Mart is no friend of the poor. The only people that Wal-Mart is a friend to are the Walton heirs whose only claim to the riches they receive is winning the uteran lottery, and the major shareholders of the Wal-Mart corporation. For everyone else, it's a loss. Consumers included, considering the long-term detrimental effects that go along with those low prices.

[camero]

226. While you go on about the joys of deflation...

Know this. Somebody that you terribly need a service from because you can't or won't get off your ass and do it yourself is going to bed hungry. They are dying from the illness that they can't see a doctor for because you don't want to spend any money.

They have to sleep in a car because you think that they are not with the "free market".

All the while, people like you are destroying the planet with your gas guzzling cars, your coal fired plants, your amazing obssession with wealth, and your urge to keep people in slavery.

When they die, you die because you can't get by without them.

Merry fuckin Christmas, Grinch.

[IrateCitizen]

229. Easy, camero -- not everyone on this board is a disruptor

I don't think that this person was coming here with the purpose of disruption -- this one had more of the feel of just not knowing than arrogance.

Of course, with the infiltrators in full swing, it's easy to get a little trigger-happy. ;-)

[camero]

231. maybe I was a little harsh.

But I was just dying to say that with all the disrupters. You would think they would read the thread before posting. There are countless links here that tell what they are doing.