Ready. Aim. Fire!...OUCH!

[trof]

Well, my blood pressure is back down to at least measurable levels this morning. I read the comments on the thread I posted last night. I should have made the point that Koppel did not ask "Is Dean the only candidate who can beat Bush*?". He just asked them if Dean could win. One of the first things you should learn in debating as well as test taking is RTFQ. (If you don't know what it means, PM me. Don't want to risk this being locked.)
If you still think it was a sucker punch, it was one easily dodged. Every candidate knew they'd get SOME air time, and could explain that any of them could beat Bush*. If they had only thought of it.

I sent this to BuzzFlash a few minutes ago.

Ready. Aim. Fire!...OUCH!
Missed Opportunities, or Why Do We Keep Shooting Ourselves in the Foot?

In last night's (Dec.9) Democratic debate at the University of New Hampshire, this was Ted Koppel's opening shot:
"Things are going very well for him (Dean) in the polls. Things are going very well for him in terms of raising money.
So I would like all of you up here, including you, Governor Dean, to raise your hand if you believe that Governor Dean can beat George W. Bush."

Only Howard Dean's hand went up.

A minute or two later Koppel explained "I'm not really asking you -- at least, I wasn't then -- whether you think you're the better candidate. I was simply asking you whether you thought that Howard Dean could beat George W. Bush. Not a one of you raised his or her hand."

I have read comments elsewhere that Koppel asked a "bad" question.
No, he asked a good question. The candidates gave a bad answer.
Every hand on that stage should have gone up.
Let me repeat that.
EVERY HAND UP.
And then the answers should have been, "Ted, every person on this stage can beat George Bush. When a search on the Google website for the phrase "miserable failure" results in hundreds of hits that come up "George W. Bush" and his administration, anybody can beat Bush. The question before us tonight is 'What then?' After you have defeated Bush in the election next November, how do you plan to rescue the country from the last four disastrous years of malfeasance and misadministration?"

I would amend Ben Franklin's maxim. We must all hang together and not try to hang each other, separately.
I will still vote ABB, Anybody But Bush, but I am not encouraged by last night's performance.
<trof>

[Guaranteed]

1. You're goddamned right they should have.

Pardon me, but FUCK them.

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. Good point

I think our party leaders better start to join forces and continue to focus on attacking Bu$h and his miserable record. They need to control the media, rather than allowing the media to control them.

However, no matter who gets the nomination, all democrats need to support that person. We have to defeat Bu$hCo and we have to take back Congress. Our lives depend on it.

[Le Taz Hot]

3. Well, trof, it'll make a great soundbite

for Bush*. :eyes:

[trof]

4. Yeah, we can expect to see this again.

:-(

[Frodo]

23. Soundbite? Heck, it's going to be a fifteen second commercial

run every time one of the other Democrats endorses Dean (assuming Dean winds the nomination and we don't fracture the party).



Kerry - "I'm here to endorse Gov Dean... He's the man to beat W" Commerial (or free commercial from the press) - Fifteen second clip of Kerry standing still while asked " So I would like all of you up here... to raise your hand if you believe that Governor Dean can beat George W. Bush" (Add sounds of crickets chirping)

Repeat for each candidate. Repeat any time another Democrat endorses him as evidence that our own candidates think he'll lose. Repeat as evidence for why Dean has little financial backing by comparison to Bush.

[depakid]

5. Thankfully, hardly anyone but us political junkies was watching

Let's hope that in the spirit of unity and ABB that they all reflect on this so that it doesn't happen again when more people are paying attention.

[trof]

6. I'll be watching CNN today.

And I'll be surprised if the clip doesn't show up there.

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. Unfortunately Rush will feed it by spoon to his dittoheads

It was a horrible sight to behold.

[trof]

7. RTFQ:

Read The <eFfing> Question.
Or as Maeve so aptly PM'd me "LTTFQ".
Listen To The FQ.

[CWebster]

8. They were all pissed about the Gore endorsement.

It was Carol Mosely-Braun who spoke words to breach the gap. The woman is a natural diplomat and a class act.

[trof]

10. I couldn't agree more.

To me she comes across as the most erudite and intelligent.
I wish she had a chance, but, sadly, I don't think she does.

[goldilox369]

11. i think that in the end...

that whoever gets the nomination will be supported by the other 8 candidates. I mean, McCain really disliked Bush, but ended up giving him the nod...i think the same thing would happen within our party, seeing as how we are still way more tolerant of those who do not lock step with our own personal views on everything. No matter what any of those democrats would do much to repair the damage that Prince George has done in the past 4 years.

[deutsey]

12. Sowing the seeds of our own destruction

What you're saying is spot on. I would have raised my hand if the question had focused on any of the candidates and then responded as you suggest.

Your Franklin quote should be the motto of the Democrats for this election, but instead we all line up in our circular firing squad, take aim, and blow away our chances for beating Bush.

[tabasco]

13. Get a grip.

It's a debate, not a group hug. It ain't ammo for the repubs or anything to get your blood pressure up. Has anybody paid attention to elections before this one? Candidates in the primaries are adversaries until the nomination is made. We're nowhere near that point. I like Dean, but some of his groupies act like he's already been nominated and all these other candidates need to get in line.

[Frodo]

25. Really? Have YOU paid attention to previous elections?

Lines of attack used by intra-party opponents in the debates are OFTEN used by the opposing party in the general election.

It plays so well because it can't be spun as "partisan" if your own party makes the argument as well.

This will definitely hurt.

The correct answer was to wave their hands high above their heads and say "I think I would make a better candidate/president... but he11 yes I think he can beat Bush" and for Dean to respond "I think any one of us can and will beat Bush when people realize what he has doen to this country".

Answering it the way they did says that they don't believe the American people WANT to get rid of Bush... that only a great candidate can beat him (AND that our frontrunner is not such a candidate).

[tabasco]

28. I handed out Hubert Humphrey flyers when I was ten years old.

And I've been paying attention ever since. The incident at the debate will be forgotten next week. What a startling revelation that Bush will use the strategy of "the American people don't want to get rid of Bush." Some Dean folks are just a little bit sensitive.

[AngryAmish]

14. What is wrong with them?

Don't they realize that Bush is Hitler?

[Bridget Burke]

15. Bush is not a Nazi, so Stop Saying That!

Of course, you're referring to the famous Flash presentation:

www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[HFishbine]

22. Interesting that you should say that

It's a minority view, but you are not alone. I don't agree, but I respect your right to have that opinion.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. I think you need to study some German history...

1933 Election
<http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GER1933.htm>

I think you'll find a number of interesting parallels between the actions taken by the Nazi Party and those taken by the NeoCon Junta.

[deminflorida]

16. The Gore Endorsement Yesterday did more damage to the....

party as a whole than to any one candidate in particular. Number one reading the reviews out of Washington this morning it looks as though it's pitted the Clinton camp against the now Gore/Dean camp. That's not a good thing, period. Dean needs to look more centrist now (which is what he really is, if you look at his record) in order to win key states in the south and heartland. How is he going to do that with people who are in the Clinton centrist ideology club (Liberman, Edwards, Clark) pointing out the fact that he isn't running on a centrist/moderate democratic platform? Plus Dean's front runner status has probably prompted Clinton operatives to stop this train before it arrives at the station, (yes I belive Clinton would do this rather than make any endorsement). Then there's the behind the scenes Kingmakers in the Kerry camp up there in N.H., if I'm not mistaken isn't Ted Kennedy backing Kerry?

You know maybe Dean could survive one of those camps coming after him for derailment....but the Clintons and the Kennedys. I don't think so...

It's an internal war this party did not need, and it distracts from the real issue of beating Bush. But face it folks, because of the early endorsement of Gore, there is a war going on.

[HuckleB]

19. Give me a break.

It's called participating in the process. It did nothing but forward the same old, usual process of campaigning. If the other candidates choose to respond with nastiness, that is not Gore's fault. It's time the other candidates focused on telling us who they are rather than what a terrible guy Dean is.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. You seem to have forgotten that the mainstream media's job is to...

...cast the NeoCon Junta in the best possible light while highlighting anything, true or false, that could be used to demonstrate a perceived split in the Democratic Party.

And yes, there is an internal fight for control of the Democratic Party for the 2004 election. It's called the nomination process and it happens every four years.

If you fall for anything reported in the media claiming that one or more events have caused irreparable damage to the Democratic Party, then you've fallen for one of the many ploys that will be used by the NeoCon propaganda machine between now and the 2004 elections.

You ought to be more worried about whether or not elections will be held at all.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. Devil's Advocate:....

Why would any of Dean's opponents have answered "yes" to Koppel's question when they are ALL of them still actively seeking the Democratic Party nomination? Why would any of them have publicly admitted that Dean was in the driver's seat for the Democratic Party nomination when they all have financial backers and other supporters that expect each of them to win the nomination instead? Wouldn't that have been the WRONG signal to send to their supporters?

IMHO, let's see how everyone behaves AFTER the nomination of the Democratic Party candidate before claiming the party is hopelessly split.

[sendero]

18. I can't help...

... but think this might be why Gore decided to go ahead and endorse.

The folks that are losing to Dean are really pissed. He's an "outsider", he's "unelectable", he just sticks in their craw so much "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean" that they cannot even be civil with him.

Yes, he went on the attack early about real issues, mostly the IRW. Their response is to attack all sorts of bullsh*t nothing points.

The sooner Dean sews up this nomination the better. And unless something really dramatic happpens, which might happen but is not likely, he will. Then the snipers can go back to the halls of Congress and write the Reps more blank checks.

[HFishbine]

21. Short-sighted, self-interested, myopic arrogance

Damn straight every hand should have gone up. It's going to be damn difficult for any of the candidates to be considered for VP now if Dean should get the nomination.

"(Senator Edwards), (General Clark), (Representative Kucinich), (Senator Kerry), when you were asked if Howard Dean could beat George Bush, you said no. How can you now join him on the ticket in good faith?"

[deminflorida]

24. Well, your assuming Dean's going to be on the ticket himself....

and that my friend is a huge assumption. People in this party aren't stupid and they want the best guy that can beat Bush in the general election. To me right now Dean is not that guy. If he moderates some of his policies, like the Tax Issue for Middle Class Americans...maybe.

[Frodo]

26. Good point "fishy"

Will they say "Well, with ME as VP I think he can"?

or "I wasn't paying attention - none of us were"?

[trof]

29. BINGO! CNN Inside Politics.

Lead story.
Do I get a cigar or something?
:-(

[slinkerwink]

30. how is it a lead story?