Do right-wingers actually believe their lies?

[durutti]

Or are they deliberately misleading people?

What do you think?

[Bluzmann57]

1. Often wondered that myself

One has to believe that nobody can be that stupid, especially here in America where we have access to the best technology and education in the world, but it sure seems that they believe it.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Randi_Listener]

107. BRING 'EM ON!

n/t

[durutti]

112. And Free Republic does allow opposing views?

News to me.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

113. What on earth does this have to do with the topic?

But since you're here: Do you REALLY believe Saddam was involved with 911?

Do you REALLY believe that he had WMD?

Can you spell moron with an "a"?

Buh-bye!

[Name removed]

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[Heddi]

2. They believe them

they cling to them like they were a safety blanket.

Believing the lies helps them to ignore things like societial ills, unemployment, widening gap between rich and poor.

It's a self-defense mechanism. Even though they work at the Factory making $7.00 an hour, un-unionized, and screwed by their American-Born factory owners, they MUST believe that it's the Mexicans, Blacks, Jews, Women, Abortion-Doctors that are taking away their jobs. If they realized, and saw, what the truth WAS (owners getting richer while the poor get poorer), then their whole world would fall apart.

They live by the notion of Scapegoating. They gloat about Personal Responsibility...but always for OTHERS. If a black woman gets laid off from her job, it was because SHE OBVIOUSLY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT---lazy, too many kids, smoking crack during break time.....but if THEY get laid off, it's never their fault. The owner musta been a democrat....

Personal Responsiblity for everyone but themselves. They must scapegoat, or else they would have to face the realization that THEY, not the blacks, the immigrants, the women, or the homosexuals, are the result of their problems in life.

[durutti]

82. I wasn't really thinking of those people...

Those are the people who are sometimes *duped* by right-wingers.

I mean the professional right-wingers, like Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilly, Bush, Lott, Cheney, Helms, etc.

[Heddi]

123. Who knows about them.....

I guess, they're paid to be right-wing hacks. I'm sure that if Anne Coulter could make a trazillion dollars trashing the right wing, she would change her colours in a HEARTBEAT.

But, unfortunately, Left-Wing doesn't sell like Right-Wing does. Yeah, we can look to Al Franken and people like that, but they're a minority in the world of media.

There is no left-wing media ANYTHING, and Rush Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity--they're where the money is.

Plus--it doesn't matter if *THEY* believe what they say---the reason they say the things they do, and the reason they *supposedly* sell millions of books and have millions of listenrs is because there are MILLIONS of Americans who believe what they say---and that is the important things.

As long as they have two-toothed yokels buying their books, CD's and audio cassettes by the truckload, and as long as they have very dim-witted people listening to their shows and cheering them on---what do they care?

And they probably realize that people who lean right-wing and who listen to (and encourage) people like Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc, aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. It's easy to tell them 45 lies in as many minutes because they know they'll never get called on their lies. By their listeners, or anyone else for that matter.

And if they ARE called on their lies, distortions, and untruths, they can just claim LIBERAL BIAS! THEM LIBERALS DONT WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH...now, back to how Bill Clinton was SOLEY RESPONSIBLE for the Death Of Christ.....

[wysimdnwyg]

3. Many are purposefully lying

but most just believe what they're told. They're either too stupid or too lazy to find the truth.

And yes, there are some who find out the truth, see that it benefits them (who cares what it does for the masses), and vote with the repugs.

[impeach the gop]

4. telling these zombies anything a million times over

they believe it. Just ask them who bombed the wto

[barbaraann]

67. It only takes 100 times.

I learned that on Dr. Phil. He used to be a highly successful (corporate) jury consultant.

[DrWeird]

5. yes to both

nt

[Braden]

6. its a bit of both

I debated a kid in another forum today who said that Reagan's attacks on Tripoli ended Lybia's support and sponsorship of terrorism. I guess he was in diapers when Pan Am 103 was blown out of the sky.

[OrAnarch]

7. depends

depens no the person, position, motive, etc. The dumber they are, the more they beleive em. IMHO, cheney knows he lies all the time, and bush just knows occassionally.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yes the base does

or they would have to deal with the cognitive disonance they face every day

[Ksec]

9. Great question.

I believe sometimes they do. If something is said enough its a fact in their world. Ive seen many instances of this from the republipukes. Im not sure what physcological term for this behavior would be but it seems to be a recurring trait of theirs. For instance, I believe alot of these morons believe conservative policys are actually benefitting the People.

[htuttle]

10. Both

Right wingers often demonstrate the use of classic Orwellian doublethink.

To wit:

Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. The Party intellectual knows in which direction his memories must be altered; he therefore knows that he is playing tricks with reality; but by the exercise of doublethink he also satisfies himself that reality is not violated. The process has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt.

They deliberately lie to mislead people, but in the process, many believe the lie, even while they are spinning it. Truth and facts become less defined and more malleable. "Facts are stupid things," to quote Ronald Reagan.

It's a form of psychosis, as far as I'm concerned.
(cf. Groupthink, which can lead to, and also employ, doublethink)

[Toucano]

70. great explanation. n/t

[tom_paine]

11. Not sure believing or disbelieving has anything to do with it

Like Nazi Brownshirts before them, they are indoctrinated with what I like to call Goebbels v2.0, which is so much more powerful than the original version.

There is no believing or disbelieveing. They obey as they are told.

Example:

For 20 years, Goebbels v2.0 told them to HATE deficits and debt. Even as Raygun shot deficits and debt through the roof, they still ated them, being told that such things were totems of the Evil Liberals.

Now that the Busheviks no longer have to even worry about discovery or hide their true intentions, thefts, frauds, kickbacks, etc., it is now advantageous for the Brownshirts (and assorted weak-minded fellow travellers) to tell their minions that that suddenly deficits are good!

The ease with which that transition has been made withing the Bushevik Freikorps proves fairly conclusively that, beyond everything, they are incapable of critical thinkinf as Free People define it.

Let alone all the other Orwellian Doublethink that they now have an infinite capacity to perform (you know..."it's unpatriotic to criticize the Emperor (lets just forget the previous 8 years, shall we) or the new Brownshirt meme of "Bush Haters" to describe Free Americans (no, the Bushevik Brownshirts didn;t have an irrational hatreds of Clinton, did they?)

So, when thinking about them as People Who Can Think is a mistake. They are little more, the worst of them, than automatons. If their Bushevik Masters told them to perform Kristallnacht or spy on their neighbors or denounce people for sending off to concentration camps...they would do so without question or remorse.

THAT is what we deal with and God help us when things ahve fallen so far in 10-20 years that their Bushevik masters feel secure in giving them those orders.

[durutti]

99. Irrational hatred...

Interesting. I've been reading the book Many Are the Crimes: McCarthyism in America. The author describes how progressives were dehumanized during the early years of the Cold War. It's eerily similar to the situation today.

[Woodstock]

12. No, they don't believe them, they just want to keep the gravy train

rolling.

You have to be a good liar to be a Republican spokesperson.

One nation under Bush's False God. A nation by the corporation for the corporation.

A Bush mouthpiece on Diane Rehm was sounding so outraged that a caller implied the world isn't too happy with having Bush's policies rammed down their throats. I felt like shoving those Pew numbers at him saying that even Britain's approval numbers of the US were in the tank - let's not even get into other countries.

If you mean regular run of the mill Bush supporters, they are just repeating what Rush told them. They don't think. In Bush they trust. All these generations of people risked their lives for our Constitution and our freedom, and they just hand it over meekly.

[Name removed]

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[zanana]

15. If you're going to be wrong, at least spell it right.

It's disgusted, NOT discusted.

[devinsgram]

121. Come on, you know they are not that smart.

[drscm]

16. What middle America?

If Bush had his way, there would not be a middle America - only corporatists and their servants.

[Name removed]

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[durutti]

109. Huh?

Why are these people more important than people who live in the cities?

Furthermore, the Democrats aren't the party that's kicking these folks you refer to off welfare, destroying Medicare, trying to privatize Social Security, smashing unions, and depriving them of health insurance.

[Woodstock]

17. Speaking of lies...

[durutti]

23. Middle America...

"The Deep South" in GOP-speak.

[glitch]

25. So the answer is yes?

You really do believe Bush speaks the truth and is looking out for your interests?
Or are you disgusted because you can't believe that we could believe that you might actually be naive enough to believe him?

[Undecided Okie]

34. possibly

So me an honest politician (on either side of the aisle) and I'll take you for a ride in my flying saucer.

[izzie]

26. It is only the spooks speaking on TV that are up-tight.

If we believed what they said Gore would not have 600,000 more voters that wanted him president than what 'our' president got.Come on wake up.You seem to have forgotten what the people wanted, not how the college came out.

[Name removed]

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[gristy]

Democrat party??

What's that? Is that like the Republic party? :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[htuttle]

33. I'm in the middle of farm country...lived here all my life

Grew up in a village of less than 2,000.

Try again.

( on edit)

I'm not done yet.

Have you ever heard of Russ Feingold? Paul Wellstone? Robert frackin LaFollette?

I think you have a twisted view of the United States. All the 'liberals' don't live on the coasts.

[Deltahoosier]

35. OK....

What do I need to try? Tell me why the dems are loosing control of "fly over country"? It is only becoming obvious from recent election trends.

[htuttle]

39. Here in WI, we just tossed Gov. Thompson's political heir out on his a**

...and put in Thompon's long-time nemesis, former AG James Doyle (D).

Illinois just went totally Democratic, probably for the foreseeable future.

Your political 'common wisdom' is about 10 years out of date.

[Deltahoosier]

42. Go ahead and

ignor the truth. Only reason Illinois is staying democratic is due to Chicago (a big city) makes up Illinois' power, wealth and population.

[htuttle]

45. How would you know?

According to your profile, you are in wild and crazy 'liberal' California.

The reason Illinois went Democratic is because the Republican party imploded due to the weight of years of lies and corruption. The former Republican governor is currently under indictment.

Pay attention!

[Deltahoosier]

54. When has

Illinois ever been republican. This coming from someone who probably uses the term "FIB" to refer to Illinois people. What do you know and why would you care? I lived for 19 years on the Indiana/ Illinois border and all my family is from there.

[PsN2Wind]

43. Are you related

to Dan Quail?

[Name removed]

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[LiberalFighter]

84. Nobody forced you to drop into California

If you slept with Quayle then you must be part of the inbreds in Huntington. There sure are a lot of them in that city that are related to each other. And I am sure the ones that aren't related are glad about that.

[Deltahoosier]

95. Actually,

I am from Vincennes. I take full responsibility for being here. I was actually recruited to come to cali from school. So, I followed the job in my field.

[drscm]

55. Another sheeple who believes the Limbaugh lies...

1. Democrats have nothing positive to offer. They only offer criticism. RESP: If you are truly interested in what Democrats have to offer, read the position papers of the candidates. Unfortunately, to be a Democrat, you have to learn to read because the voice media, e.g., Limpballs on Muddy Channel, will not share that information with you. It's against their interest.

2. Repugs talk about "personal responsibility." I will go to my grave before I hear *Bush admit that he is personally responsible for any of the problems in this nation. Until he is willing to be responsible, rather than blaming others, the problems will continue. "Blaming" is a characteristic of the repug party, as is projection. Case in point: Limpballs is nothing but three hours of blaming Democrats five days a week.

[Name removed]

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[drscm]

64. What's not to hate about Limpball's and his name calling?

Yet you believe his message of hate? Why? What good does it do you or the rest of the nation to turn our freedom over to a bunch of capitalists. Limpballs is nothing but hate, hate, hate.

I have two nephews in Iraq. I disdain the man who put them in harms way with his lies, his retaliation, and his greed. If you want to believe you are safer because his daddy's enemy is in jail, then you are merely fooling yourself. But don't use our nation's children to play your blood sports or to fulfill your greed.

BTW, "school girl snide remarks" verges on name calling, doesn't it?

[Deltahoosier]

78. I have

my best friends brother (I practically grew up with him and lived at his house) is there too. I love him and hope he comes home safe, but, I would put the blame on him. Which part of military do people not understand?

I am just saying that one's message gets clouded by someone who is obviously biased. I do not care how much fact or fiction someone puts in front of another, if the message is filled with obvious venom, then the message is not heard.

I wish school girls have never called peole names either....

[drscm]

83. You blame the military men and women for where they are at?

YOU BLAME THE MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN FOR WHERE THEY ARE AT?

Did they all get up one morning and decide to make a little excursion into Iraq?

One man is ultimately responsible for their lives, and HE put them in harms way unnecessarily. You are saying because they honored an oath to the nation, that gives another human being the right to use them as chattel.

How dare you condemn our military in this manner.

[YNGW]

91. Huh!?!

I didn't even follow that.

Military people understand that they can be called upon to perform duties as the government sees fit or that they may even be required to go to war. I'm not aware of any military people who see themselves as "chattle", not for carrying out their oaths of duty and service, regardless of who the president is.

[Deltahoosier]

120. Sorry for the delay..

Please do not give me the "I care for the militay guys more than you do speech" It is not productive and we will never get anywhere.

I am saying that when you join the military, you pretty much better assume you are going to be used. Even as a little boy, I knew that if I went to the military, I knew I would most likely have to shoot at people and be shot at.

If someone goes into the military and think otherwise, they need to have their reality checked. That is what all the guns, bombs and missiles are for.

I am done for now.

[durutti]

59. There *is* nothing to say.

Your post contained nothing of substance. I've seen no evidence that "middle America" is getting "disgusted" with the "Democrat party", anymore than it's getting disgusted with the Republican Party or politicians in general.

The fact is that progressives have endured deceit, manipulation, and outright hatred at the hands of the right for decades. We begin to fight back, and suddenly we're "the Angry Left", full of "hate".

You do a good job at parroting Sean Hannity's talking points. You don't do a good job at presenting any kind of real evidence to back up those points.

[Deltahoosier]

61. really..

look at the election map of 2000. It is called "scoreboard" for those playing politics at home. Now, do you actually do something about it or do you continue with the game that got you there.

[drscm]

71. Are we back to the thesis that the landed gentry should get a

number of votes equivalent to the number of square miles they own and slaves should get nothing?

Your "scoreboard" is faulty.

[Deltahoosier]

73. Ignor the data

if you wish. The French royalty did not think the poor little farm people mattered either.

[drscm]

79. What data?

That the number of red or blue square miles is equivalent to something? What?

[Name removed]

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[PsN2Wind]

31. Another character witness

for Rush.

[Deltahoosier]

44. call it

what you will. Every side has some truth and ignoring all inputs will be the demise of us all.

[K8-EEE]

53. Dis-custing Dis-cussion!

LOL!! My theory is that the GOP needs people to be really ignorant and scared to vote for them. Any working class individual voting for GWB must be both of those. Rich people, I can understand it, as all GWBs agenda benefit them.

[Deltahoosier]

56. Let's go with that....

logic. I think they are scared. The reason being, is they see the left portion of the party trying to hand us over to the United Nations, take away there ability to raise their children according to God, and to defend themselves. Only other issue most care about is Unions and Farming. Most laws are now on the books protecting workers and Bush has not shown any ill will to get in the way of labor disputs. That system is in place.

[htuttle]

57. Perhaps we can answer this thread's question once and for all

Do you believe what you just said?

[Deltahoosier]

72. I will answer,

I believe comming from the midwest to California, that we have very little in common when it comes to common interests of the daily life cycle. I truely believe that the people of the midwest, myself included, feel that there is a cultural war between the large population centers. The "fly over" people are very much about America first and their rights. You can ignor me or trivialize me with school girl quips about on the fly internet spelling and quick responses to many different sub-threads, but, look at the election map.

[htuttle]

76. I'm not sure you can grasp the irony...

....but with you sitting there in California, telling me here in Wisconsin that the people of the midwest feel a certain way....well, nevermind.

I'll just take that as a Yes.

Thank you.

[Name removed]

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[htuttle]

97. Nice passive aggression there...

I just love it when someone throws an attack, then accuses everyone else of doing it, then 'apologizes' for the scene the others made.

I did not insult you in my replies to you. I questioned your facts and assumptions. I did not insuinuate that you lack the capacity to understand, only that your facts are biased and out of date. I never said a word about your spelling, nor did I criticize your grammer.

I realize that having your assumptions challenged can be very uncomfortable, but try not to just thrash out like that.

Here's what I will say to what actual statements there are in your last post: You are looking at an electoral map from very far away. Maybe you're even talking to your family and friends from time to time. I am in contact with lots and lots of people, from many walks of life, many of them neither friends nor family. I'm telling you that I'm seeing a different picture here than you seem to be describing.

[Deltahoosier]

118. Sorry about that....

Had to stop and work through removed thread issues. Funny how someone can start out calling names but you can not use sarcasm in retort.

That was a lovely use of passive aggressive, if I may say so myself. I'm sorry for doing that.

All I am saying is that Wis and Ill have traditionally been on the dems side. The other parts of the counrty are loosing faith in the democrates for pandering to what they consider radical ideas of the population centers of the East and West Coasts. That is what I see and have always noticed. I would explain myself further, but, I want to get out of here. Put it this way, I grew up very poor, made it through school and moved to california at a very young age. From where I sit, California and Indiana has nothing in common. I also work in a job that recruits from around the country and I work with and am very good friends with guys from Wis, Ill, Indiana, Iowa, OR, NM, TX. I have a broad base of working class guys that I talk to quite a bit.

[arcane1]

88. just because a state is Red on the map...

does not mean every citizen voted for George Bush. This was a VERY close election, and the map, while it has nice pretty colors that mean something only to the ignorant, it does NOT represent "America" as you put it.

For example, Florida is a Red state on that map, but look how close the election was there! Close enoough for a mandatory recount.

seems to me there were plenty of Blue people in that Red state.

don't be distracted by shiny colors

[Deltahoosier]

100. Shiny colors are wonderful,

but, the colors of the map are rather dull. I understand that all these states were close. I am just saying that it should be a wake up call. Nothing more nothing less.

[Name removed]

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[guitar man]

110. Where do you get

Such idiotic ideas. Must be AM radio,it is the most likely place to hear such rot.


The first thing the Bush administration did was to start attacking labor laws. The most recent being the great overtime pay takeaway. This one is probably going to affect me directly and take food off my table. If it hits enough people in "flyover" country,as you call it,you can kiss $hrub's ass goodbye come November.

[drscm]

14. Great question...

I recently read an article (Buzzflash?) in which a sociologist suggests that men who are most hurt by *Bush's policy deal with their feelings of being castrated by him by also buying into his macho nationalistic posturing. They need someone to kick rather than admit that they are being kicked.

Also, in their heart of hearts, they believe if a do-nothing can make it, then so can they.

[Skittles]

18. I am guessing they know they are being lied to

but that they don't mind because they like the lies they are being told. The only other option is that these people are complete, utter idiots.

[tom_paine]

20. And don't forget the promise fo Bullying the Weak

Feeling Superior About Themselves
Elimination of Conscience
Not Having to Think For Themselves

and, of course, the NUMBER ONE REASON...

The Joyous Hope That They, Too, Can One Day Have Their Enemies Shipped Off To Some Gulag

[Skittles]

66. lol

you forgot - micrscopic penae. Major reason. :7

[Toucano]

19. No, they do not.

It's the greatest scam in history.

"A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

The most amoral people on earth wrapping themselves in flags, clutching their Bibles, and surrounding themselves with "the troops".

"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!"

[izzie]

21. Well read Free Rep and Hear then on c-span and I would say yes

They often mix orange and apples logic I must say.

[tlrowe00]

24. Speaking of lying. Can someone verify this.

One of my neo-con co-workers sent me this. Can anyone verify these statements? Thanks.


FOR DEMOCRATS: Tell your friends and your favorite candidate that
you are embarrassed by the shameless claims of Democrats who say: President
Bush lied, there never were any WMD, and he took us to war for his oil
buddies. Urge them to demonstrate honesty and integrity, and substantively
debate the real challenging issues facing this country.
FOR REPULICANS: Pass this on to your friends and help highlight
this shameful behavior and urge your candidates to stay focused on the real
challenging issues facing this country.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity
to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is
clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of
mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from , but what happens there matters a
great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use
nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the
greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten
times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with
the U.S Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if
appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond
effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of
mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom
Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of
mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region
and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of
mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his
weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear
programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In
addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless
using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles
that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and
others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and
a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the
mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction
and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and
chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible
to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam
is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and
developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We
are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to
build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence
reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the
authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I
believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands
is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working
aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear
weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have
always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of
weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11
years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and
destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity.
This he has refused to do"
- Rep Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports
show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al
Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam
Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and
chemical warfare,
and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that
Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing
capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a
brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass
destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass
destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


FOR DEMOCRATS: Tell your friends and your favorite candidate that
you are embarrassed by the shameless claims of Democrats who say: President
Bush lied, there never were any WMD, and he took us to war for his oil
buddies. Urge them to demonstrate honesty and integrity, and substantively
debate the real challenging issues facing this country.
FOR REPULICANS: Pass this on to your friends and help highlight
this shameful behavior and urge your candidates to stay focused on the real
challenging issues facing this country.

[Undecided Okie]

28. verification

I've seen that before and "yes" those quotes are very accurate.

[tom_paine]

46. What sort of verification is that?

Are you familiar with the meaning of that word?

So, you've seen the Pravda and decided the quotes are accurate, Comrade?

Are you some kind of lousy Commie or something that you would accept something on face value, so long as it tells your Commie Ears what they want to hear?

What kind of lousy socialist COMMIE deosn't understand the meaning of the word "verification"?

Let me help, Comrade. "Verififcation" isn't receiving an e-mail and nodding your head. Verficiation is providing a link ro some other corroborative source to confirm an allegation/assertion.

But I would understand, Comrade, how someone who has spent the last 15 years being indoctrinated by Party-Loyal Sub-Media wouldn't know what "verification" means and might be mistaken as to say, "I verify it because it seems true to me."

Oh you Comrades and your brainwashing by Party-Loyal Sub-Media!

[durutti]

30. This is correct.

Democrats have lied about Iraq just as much as Republicans. But there have been honorable men and women on both sides -- from Dennis Kucinich to Ron Paul -- who haven't bought into it.

[durutti]

36. What I think...

Some of them can't possibly believe what they're saying. But being a right-wing mouthpiece can be very lucrative.

And of course, neoconservatives are inspired by Strauss' concept of "noble lies".

Others are so zealous that they do actually believe the lies. They have too much invested in what they believe to change.

[tlrowe00]

41. Not necessarily lies but bad intelligence seems to be

the problem. A lie is something that is known to be false. Intelligence has failed and I think that is what Clinton and Bush were relying on. Don't exactly know where it started but i'm not blind to the fact Clinton stopped the CIA from using criminals and "shady" individuals to gather info. That was a mistake. Who better to get knowledge from than people that are criminals and know the business.

[karlschneider]

37. Congresspeople were lied to, just as we were:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00168.htm

[gristy]

22. I think they hate the left so much they don't care about the lies.

Either that or they believe in some higher repuke calling/objective such that they the lies are justified.

Either they don't care or they think the lies are justified. They aren't stupid.

[YNGW]

32. Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

They say we lie, we say they lie.

What is truth?? It's what you choose to believe it is for many.

It's hard to comprehend the USA lasting too much longer under either party. Both want to destroy the other, it seems.

[Deltahoosier]

38. I truely believe that....

You hit the nail on the head. All I see is hate on here. So, determined to destroy the so called evil republican, that people will actually sell us out to the highest bidding U.N. charter member.

[PsN2Wind]

50. And appearing Now

also from the state that put the E in potato.

[Woodstock]

52. Ah, yes, the so-called evil UN

Any other Rove talking points you'd like to bring up?

[guitar man]

62. What a load of shit

You see what you want to see,not what is actually there. You are seeing what OxyMoron told you you would see.

Stick around and open your eyes,you might learn something,but it will take a while for the brainwashing to wear off.

And as far as selling this country out,I think the current administration has by far done the most thorugh job of that ever. Sold our jobs out to outsourcing and our civil rights with the Patriot Act.

[PsN2Wind]

40. DeltaHoosier du

or is it dew or maybe doo.Seems I can't recall my lessons of first grade.

[Deltahoosier]

51. First grade....

Now those were the best three years of my life....

[LiberalFighter]

90. How many years did you repeat first grade?

Apparently didn't do any good.

[proud patriot]

48. Some do and some don't

:shrug:

[ddye]

49. re:Do right-wingers actually believe their lies?

Are you saying that only right-wingers lie?

[durutti]

74. No. But...

I don't think it would be wrong to say that right-wingers necessarily lie much more than leftists.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion -- but that doesn't mean that all opinions are equally correct. I think that social, economic, and political problems ought to be approached scientificaly: that is, you should observe the problem, think of what could be done to solve it, try to solve it that way, and evaluate your success.

The advantage we have today is that much of the research has already been done. We need only to examine it critically. And if that's done in an objective fashion, I believe that the left is shown to be right, and the right wrong, in almost every respect.

The problem is that the wealthy favor the right over the left. It's in their interest to do so. So they buy media outlets, fund think tanks, hire PR firms, etc. to further right-wing ideas. And since those ideas can't be supported by any sort of rational analysis, they have to disseminate lies. They go so far as to fund phony research (like The Bell Curve).

The left can't afford to lie. It doesn't have the resources of the right. If a leftist lies, his or her lie will be quickly exposed, and he or she will be discredited. If a right-winger lies, most people won't even realize it (since the left usually lacks the resources to alert people to these lies), and by the time they do, the well-funded right will have disseminated 50 more lies.

So yes, lefists have lied and do lie. But logically, they don't as much as the right; and are less likely to do so, because it simply isn't effective for them.

[Drew the Independent]

69. An Independent's point of view

As an independent who wishes that Leiberman would win the Dem' nomination, I find myself appalled by the rhetoric on both the Left and Right-wing websites that I visit. Both camps seem to vilify the other without hesitation, just because their opinions and beliefs differ. This baffles me. Shouldn't we respect President Bush because he's our President, and not demean him to the point that we insult his manhood and integrity? Conversely, why do Limbaugh and Hannity find it necessary to automatically lump every Democrat into the Left-Wing Liberal camp? Most of these men are men of honor and dignity, and shouldn't be vilified based on their core beliefs (left or right). Can't we just disagree on the issues, without calling our opponents morons? I'm open to intelligent, non-hostile responses.

[ddye]

75. re:An Independent's point of view

Great post!

Dude, I'm votin' for YOU!

[Randi_Listener]

87. Respect?

Like the respect they showed President Clinton during his tenure in the White House?

[Drew the Independent]

93. You just proved my point...

...without realizing it, you just validated my post. Politics will always be a high-stakes affair. But in the past few years, it's turned into a mud-slinging bloodbath, particularly by people with your disposition, from both the left AND right. Why should Bush take your blind criticism because members of his party criticized Clinton?

[Randi_Listener]

98. Because our biggest worry...

....while President Clinton was in office was a blowjob. With the current Chief Fuckface in power, we are worried about job losses, lack of security from terrorism, reinstatement of the draft, ignored corporate corruption, and flimsy environmental protections. You just proved my point. Thanks for kicking your own ass.

[Drew the Independent]

103. Thanks

That reply was neither 'intelligent' nor 'non-hostile,' so I will refuse to pay attention to your future posts. All you just did was prove that you have nothing important to say, just a bunch of criticism without any background or alternative ideas.

[Randi_Listener]

104. Thanks for ignoring the list.

Care to retort or are you another hit-and-run pussy?

[Drew the Independent]

111. I'm too busy...

...getting rid of the bad taste of your ignorance. Do you actually have something to say, a point to make, or are you just looking to vent some steam?

[YNGW]

114. I think he was trying to say...

... that an eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

To which I agree.

[Drew the Independent]

116. EXACTLY

You said it perfectly.

[arcane1]

101. "blind" criticism?

not too blind, man, I criticize Bush because of what I SEE

[Drew the Independent]

108. That's more like it

If you have genuine criticisms of Bush, great, lay out the points. But I have serious issues with the vulgar language and name calling employed by many on this board, especially when beyond that, they have nothing intelligent to say.

Good post, by the way.

[devinsgram]

124. Just like you, nothing intelligent to say.

[durutti]

77. Quit picking on deltahoosier's spelling.

Address his ideas. It's easy to make fun of someone's spelling errors, but it's not very productive.

P.S. This has turned out to be a much more interesting thread than I thought it would be. :-)

[Drew the Independent]

85. Spelling Errors

Please don't "villify" me if I incorrectly spelled one word in my post.

[Lars39]

92. It's become a tag team magnet, duratti !

:)

[PsN2Wind]

96. Sorry

but when someone shows up "with half their brain tied behind their back", it's kinda fun to point out they have half a brain.

[drscm]

89. After Deltahoosier's Post #78 in which he blames the military

men and women for where they are, I no longer will tolerate anything about him/her. His/her spelling is the least of my concerns.

My concern is his/her belief that *Bush has a right to use them as chattel simply because they made an oath to follow the pResident, assuming that we had someone sane in that position.

[Deltahoosier]

122. You are....

putting a lot of words in my mouth. You get all in a huff that you are the big defender of the military and then go off on another subthread proclaiming I am saying things that are not quite true. Shame on you.

[Booberdawg]

105. Politicians know they are lying. Many lay people believe the lies

[0rganism]

115. Your question errs in the premise that right-wingers are a unified group

Read Krugman's "Great Unravelling", especially the part where he compares the neo-conservative movement to Kissenger's dissertation on political revolutionaries.

Indeed, there is a right-wing faction that lies like hell to push through its agenda, shamelessly, because it has no respect for honesty in discourse. To them, the "old republic" is hopelessly warped and needs to be destroyed for capitalists to flourish. But most people value a status quo of some sort, and take issue with forthright gutting of social and environmental protections. That is why the neo-conservatives have to lie.

Their lies, which are well-represented by a bought-and-owned mass media, are believed by people who want to believe them. It is much easier to believe many contradictory things in series than accept that a direct revolutionary arm of the right wing has taken over the very government it seeks to destroy.

These people who believe the lies, they are not necessarily stupid or mean, and they probably don't even believe them at heart. They're experiencing Denial. That's why the bush administration can shift its reasoning for everything from tax cuts to invasions all over the board, and people still pretend they're honest players.

Reality is, the neo-cons have no respect for the system, and intend to "starve the beast" back to the 19th century. And it's not easy for anyone, right-winger or not, to address this matter realistically. That leaves deceit for the perpetrators, denial and willful ignorance for the apathetic masses.

[dingus360]

117. Right-Wingers

You should have seen Dean on CSPAN this AM. He explained it perfectly:
If Your governed by ideology and you're presented with conflicting facts you have to change the facts.