Would it help if I called it "Nine Eleven"?

[Q]

- Have you ever wondered why 9-11 threads are hidden in "Foreign Affairs/National Security - 9/11, Military Affairs, and Terrorism" , but many threads about Foreign Affairs, National Security, Military Affairs and Terrorism are allowed in General Discussion?

- What's up with that?

[LibertyorDeath]

1. Yes & there's only one answer...Conspiracy

Happy New Year:)

Who really controls this site and what are their true motives.

[Beam Me Up]

2. out of sight, out of mind n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

3. But when it's spelled out like that, I think of Seven Eleven.

So I might skip over the threads, or post "Shouldn't this be in the Lounge"? ;)

No policy announced yet, so I'm cautiously optomistic that Admin will do the right thing in the end, and permit discussion here.

[plaguepuppy]

6. Yeah, the 9-11 is two blocks down on the left

And in the mean time the official DU Konspiracy Korner ghetto is still at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

After all, what is there to say about it without grazing the dark penumbra of the Con World: how much we all look forward to the relentless and scathing report of the Kean comission??
How relieved we are that the administration has cooperated so fully?

How little has really changed since 9-11?
After all, it's still a democracy, right? We can still vote the guy out of office, right?

Or is democracy something you impose by military force, as seems to be our model for the rest of the world?

[Cat Atomic]

32. I think of Seven of Nine.

Because I'm a nerd.

[KoKo]

4. Maybe it just isn't "Front Page News" anymore? And the details are being

relegated to Forums because of that? :shrug:

[Minstrel Boy]

5. but there are many posts in GD which you could say that about,

and for which it's much more true than the defining event of our age, and which also have other forums they could be posted to, and yet they remain.

[plaguepuppy]

9. As long as the guys in power use 9-11as an excuse

...for anything and anything they choose to do, and as a free pass to avoid the consequences of their past misdeeds, and a bludgeon to crush all dissent, I'm afraid it will continue to be current news.

Until all the truth is out on the table all we will have is a kind of phoney closure that diminishes us all, closure around a body of lies.

[YNGW]

7. COINTELPRO

It's because the postings regarding 9/11 being made are not legitimate inquiries, and it's obvious. COINTELPRO agents are trying to promote these things on DU so their comrades in the corporate media can point to them and handcuff the whole Democratic Party to what the general public will regard as "a bunch of wing-nuts", thereby discrediting the whole party in the process, which is their whole objective. These COINTELPRO agents desire that this information be displayed at the most prominent areas in this website as possible (GD) so that these items can be more easily visible to those the corporate media send here to glare at "what the Democratic Party has become".

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Every time anyone mentions anything

about 9-11 you pop in with these allegations. You make a pronouncement that these are not legitimate inquiries, accuse everyone of being COINTELPRO agents and that all discussion should be stopped?

Mmm? People like you make me want to yell even louder. We must be hitting a sore spot.

[YNGW]

13. Reply

I do not "accuse everyone of being COINTELPRO agents ", but they are here and their mission is to discredit the Democratic Party by spreading and intentionally placing information on this website they can use against us. If you are not aware of COINTELPRO methods, there are many websites that explain exactly who they target, why, and the methods they use.

In the post you answered, I clearly stated why they are promoting the 9/11 theories here. If you wish to be an accomplice (whether knowingly or not) to COINTELPRO, that is certainly your option. I will continue to sound out the warnings of their intentions which I know to be true.

[Beam Me Up]

27. If we're just a bunch of "wing nuts" WHAT DO THEY CARE?

I'm with you, DoYouEverWonder. My motto is: "Whoever controls your perception of reality, controls you." Knowing this, I am cautious. I no longer find BIG MEDIA credible. It isn't giving me the REAL SCOOP on what is going on in my world. So I have to turn to alternative sources, such as here at DU. Of course, here, now, I have to evaluate things for myself. In a single thread I hear very different analyses or points of view about a given topic--and I have to sort through it and make sense of it in a way that fits together with everything else I know (or think I know) to create a "perspective" that is credible or believable to me.

Recently I've been seeing a lot of people who, very rationally it would seem, have taken upon themselves the task of "reforming" those of us who have very serious questions about the nature of the events of 9/11. Clearly they are trying to steer us away from asking questions about PHYSICAL EVIDENCE and MIHOP.

The problem with LIHOP (that the Bush regime simply 'allowed' all this to happen) is this: It ALLOWS the fundamental scenario as advanced by the establishment--that the events of 9/11 were the result of A TERRORIST ATTACK--to stand--AND THUS ALLOWS THE WHOLE POST 9/11 INFRASTRUCTURE OF "THE WAR ON TERRORISM" TO STAND. In other words, if there was a terrorist attack and the * administration simply 'allowed' it to happen, well, there STILL is a CREDIBLE terrorist threat. And, subsequently, we still NEED all that followed in the 9/11 wake--including Homeland Security (vs 1 and 2) AND establishment of our military in the Middle East.

On the other hand, if the events of 9/11 can be shown to be a staged event--a black-op or psy-op--then a) THERE WAS NO TERRORIST ATTACK (which negates the necessity for a "War on Terrorism" either domestic or foreign) and b) IMPLICATES THE STRUCTURES OF US GOVERNMENT ITSELF IN CRIMES AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND HUMANITY. I'm sure you can see why it would be in the best interests of EVERYONE if not TOO MANY American Citizens--or Citizens of the World--began to take such a view (even if it were in fact true!). We have no words to even conceptualize what a CRISIS OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTIONS such a 'revelation' would entail.

In any case, like you, the more they try to SWAY us from our tin-hat, wing-nut, lunacy, the more I begin to wonder if, indeed, we are getting closer to the REAL truth than anyone can possibly allow.

IN CLOSING, I'll point to an article written yesterday by Michael Rupert that is well worth reading:

/snip/
"On December 15, 2003, as reported by the Associated Press, the US Supreme Court announced that it would make a ruling in the case sometime in July 2004, just three months shy of the presidential election. This presents a real problem for the Bush administration. Legally, there is little to sustain its obviously illegal actions. And presenting the American people with another politically-tainted Supreme Court ruling just months before the election could easily rekindle debate over the Court's illegal Bush v. Gore ruling which stopped the Florida recount in 2000.

Aside from reminding the Court through widespread publication of stories about the pending decision there is little the American people can do to influence the outcome. However, the Court is already feeling enough pressure as a multitude of Bush administration extralegal positions come under increasing fire and close public scrutiny. In order for the machine to continue to function it must protect the value of the American brand name as reflected by its ability to convince large portions of the populace that the system still works. While the American people may not fully understand the implications of a Supreme Court ruling favoring the Bush administration in this case, the lawyers who make the system work and journalists who report on it most certainly will.

This is the ultimate high-stakes, must-win decision for the administration in the coming year. Full disclosure of Cheney's records would enable publications like FTW to once and for all answer for the American people and the world the single biggest question about 9/11, “What would motivate them to do such a horrible thing? What could have been so important?” In a criminal trial for murder this would be one of the three basic elements required for a conviction: the motive. The method and opportunity have already been established./snip/

More:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/cgi-bin/MasterPFP.cgi?doc=http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/123103_danger.html OR http://tinyurl.com/333gn

[YNGW]

28. Reply

Questioning is certainly appropriate. I'm suggesting that we do it in a way that can't be used against us. Broadcasting here on DU is a easy way for the corporate media to handcuff the Democratic party to what the general public will perceive as a group of "wing-nuts". They do that(along with whatever else they have up their sleeve), and there goes election 2004. There are more discreet ways to go about discussing 9/11 and still accomplish the same results.

Of course, unless something is done, COINTELPRO will continue to place these items and word them in such a way they can and will be used against us. It's their methods to make it appear perfectly normal to the rank-and-file as to not raise suspicion. But they are here, they are placing these theories out in the open, and they will succeed unless we begin to organize these discussions away from being an easy target and in a way they can't manipulate to their advantage.

[Beam Me Up]

31. OH GOOD GRIEFF!!!!

The smirking chimp sitting in the WH is NOT the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. The sElection of 2000 was a FRAUD--stage one of a coup d'état to be MORE precise. The events of 9/11 were stage 2--and YOU want to CAUTION us about COINTELPRO here on DU? GIVE ME A BREAK!

The BEAST that currently LURKS in the halls of power in our country WILL NOT GO QUIETLY INTO THE NIGHT. The minds that comprise it did not bribe and/or blackmail the SCOTUS into installing their CABAL, did not SACRIFICE the lives of 3,000 people on 9/11, and did not FALSIFY their way into a CRIMINAL military invasion of a foreign country just so some fair ELECTION might run them out of office! GET A CLUE!

THIS IS NOT POLITICS AS USUAL! This is not about 'maintaining appearances' so the good people of this country will think, "Gee, those Democrats, they seem like nice fellas, maybe we ought to vote one of them into office..." If you think the 2004 sElection will be farer than 2000--I have ONE WORD for you: ARNOLD! Has Diebold shown up on your radar? Do you think our nation's struggle with its inherent fascist tendencies ended with WWII?

I just can't help but think, given what is REALLY GOING ON in this country, the public perception of what goes on here at DU is the LEAST of the Democratic Partie's worries!!

The question isn't whether or not we can get a Democrat elected, THE QUESTION IS ARE WE A NATION RULED BY LAW OR BY TYRANTS! So far, evidence favors the latter more than the former, IMO.

How can I believe I'm wrong about that when I see a fairly elected president IMPEACHED for foreplay while this traitorous, murderous, lying, thieving, son of a baboon PARADES HIMSELF WITH IMPUNITY before the American Public with lie after lie after lie--while not ONE WORD of REAL opposition is raised.

No, sir, COINTELPRO here on this message board does NOT address my concerns!!

[plaguepuppy]

12. My aching tush

Gee, this guy is actually paranoid about paranoia!

Shouldn't there be a name for that?

OK YNGW, you found me out! And normally if you are smart enough to figure that out we offer to hire you... or kill you, of course.

But our department is getting outsourced to India, so there's a hiring freeze on. And now that my cover is blown I'll have to look for another job. But hey, I can sing and dance - I'm off to Bollywood!


Me at early COINTELPRO training camp

[YNGW]

14. A primary and most common...

... method of discrediting or attempting to discourage those who warn others about COINTELPRO is to make them out to be "paranoid about paranoia". COINTELPRO is very real and there's every reason to believe it is alive and well here at DU.

In the coming weeks and months, you will begin to note how the corporate media (Radio and TV) will more and more often send their willing followers here to view the "hate mongers and wing-nuts". That's because COINTELPRO has placed people here as agent provecurs posing as liberals in order to post items they can use against the Democratic party.

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. Don't worry so much

we're usually pretty good at smelling them when they show up.

Yes there are all kinds of folks who show up here to try to disrupt in assorted ways. You are right some people are posting lies in order to discredit the truth. But I do believe that eventually the truth will win. In the meantime it is up to each individual to wade through all the noise and decide what is true and what is not. You really don't have the right to try to stifle and censor discussions that you may or may not agree with.

[YNGW]

19. Reply

>You really don't have the right to try to stifle and censor discussions that you may or may not agree with.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm just sending up a warning.

>we're usually pretty good at smelling them when they show up.

I see no evidence to support this. If that were true, then there would be several people here who would be recognizing those who seem to be more strongly pushing these things (It's not that hard to figure out who they are. They're the one's who constantly promote and want to discuss the 9/11 theories.) and would be taking the proper measures to point them out and/or have them shown the door. As long as they are here, they will continue to post things that the corporate media will use against us.

[maggrwaggr]

21. uh ... now who's being paranoid?

that sounds way more paranoid than (almost) any of our 9/11 concerns.

And if we can't discuss 9/11 here, where can we discuss it?

I'm the farthest thing from a tin-foil-hat guy I can think of. Yet 9/11 stinks to high HEAVEN.

And the more you study it, the smellier it gets.

I think we should do the opposite of what you suggest, which is have a DU 101 section, where people can go to get up to speed on things like PNAC.

Hell, maybe people should have to read a few things and take a quick quiz before they post. :)

I do agree that some of the whackier threads make us look bad (like explosives packed in the WTC, the military causing the earthquake in Iran), but cie la vie, that's free speech.

[plaguepuppy]

23. Hey, this is the guy

...who claims that denying you are a COINTELPRO agent amounts to proof you are one. Face it, you can't win!

[YNGW]

26. Reply

You're playing right into their hands. They don't want you to believe it's possible, and if you do, they don't want you to do anything about it. In the meanwhile, they'll get the corporate media to point out their postings and handcuff it to the whole party. Kiss 2004 Goodbye!

[YNGW]

24. Reply

I'm not agruing against free speech, nor would I ever. I'm letting you and others know that their are people here who I have every reason to believe (based upon their methods of operation) are COINTELPRO, and they are posting things which will be used to make the whole party out to be a group of wing-nuts. These methods are well documented, just do a Google search. Continue to let this go on, and they will accomplish exactly what they have set out to do, and the rest of us get to pay for it for the next 4+ years.

[maggrwaggr]

29. hm. But if they know that we know that they know ....

you could just as easily argue that you yourself are doing a COINTELPRO move against us because you know that we know.

There's not a lot of logic there. By the way, why is your moniker an official looking governmental seal, and what is L.A.S.S.?

Sounds suspiciously governmental to me ..... :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. How do we know they aren't here trying to silence inquiry?

By creating issues like that? Besides, can't COINTELPRO pick up signals from the foreign affairs forum?

Sounds to me like a handful of people want to silence everyone else.

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. In order to beat Bu$h & get him out of the WH

we must keep bringing up 9-11.

We must continue to educate people about the fact that we don't know what happened that day and we may never know what really happened. But we do know that Bu$h sat in a classroom reading a book about a goat and while he sat there he knew that WTC 1 & 2 had already been hit and that there were at least two more planes in the air.


To the powers that be: Would it be possible to put the 9-11 forum on the main screen instead of buried in Foreign Affairs? There is a lot of interest in the subject and it is an important election year issue. BUSH KNEW and we need to expose this as much as possible.

PBWY
DYEW

[Minstrel Boy]

10. "there is no rule requiring 9/11 threads be removed from GD"

Just saw this in the Admin forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=10009#10092

There's a request to send the Admin info on the threads in question.

[KoKo]

15. That's good news. Maybe it was just the "subject line" of the post? If

so, then that would be simple to fix?

[truth2power]

18. Then why are they being locked and moved?

I just did a search and found four 9-11 threads in the last 2 days that were locked by the mods and moved to the 9/11 forum?

I don't understand. Do a little experiment. Turn on any TV news program. Any one. Your pick. See how long it takes for the anchor to use the word "9-11". Seems like Bush & Co. want to keep it uppermost in everyone's mind. The excuse for every Bush atrocity sooner or later comes down to 9/11 one way or another. Why shouldn't we be discussing it in GD?

[graphixtech]

17. very ridiculous

that 9-11 does not seem to be worthy of at least a separate area here.
The reality we face is that the 9-11 Commission expires in May. Public pressure needs to be applied now. The 9-11 victim's families deserve the truth about the events.

The nationwide 9-11 Visibility protests also certainly qualify as current news.



http://911Visibility.org/
http://septembereleventh.org/

[plaguepuppy]

20. What do they have to hide?

If they weren't afraid of the truth about 9-11 they wouldn't be trying so hard to hide it. Ya know, it's like what they say to justify all the government intrusion into our lives under the Patriot (sic) acts: what are you worried about if you don't have anything to hide?

[maggrwaggr]

22. What they have to hide:

Is that Bush and family are more closely tied to Saudi Arabia than they are to the United States.

OIL. "Interests" (oil again).

Don't forget Putin. He and Poppy were both the heads of their respective CIA-like entities.

It's starting to come out that Putin had his secret service do the bombings in Russia which he called "terrorism" and by which he was able to start the war in Chechnya and thusly garner much popular support and consolidate his power to the point where he can now just throw anybody he wants in jail.

Why was Poppy Bush visiting Putin a few months ago? Just a friendly chat? Yeah right.

[plaguepuppy]

25. And what would we say about a foreign country

...where the director of the state intelligence services became president, followed soon after by his idiot son in a questionable election? Guess it's for the best that us 'merricuns are simple, unsuspicious types.

[MercutioATC]

33. Nope, "Nine-Eleven" is a car, not a date...wouldn't help you a bit.

...leave 911's out of this, if you please...


;)

[Selwynn]

34. Have you ever wondered how many posts you should make about it?

[Moderator]

35. Locking

Questions/criticisms can be posted in Ask the Administrators.