Having dinner with Repubs tomorrow, need ammo

[eileen from OH]

Have known these people forever and don't know when they took the sharp right (though they are both big time Clinton bashers so I think that's where it happened.) He's actually FAR righter than she is and I think she is wholly persuadable. In fact, she wants to declare our dinners a "no politics" zone because of how wild he can get. But he'll start and I want to be fully prepared and study up ahead of time.

What I need are some good arguments that go after Bush & Co. from a true conservative angle - that is, attacks from the "right". I'm gonna get some stuff from Buchanan's site, any other places? I'm thinking - stories about how much the government has grown under Bush (particularly the Medicare bill), the size of the deficit and how it came to be (i.e. tax cut) and what it means for our kids, nation building, curtailment of personal liberties, financial cost of Iraq war, anything else that true conservatives are horrified about.

I'll do some searching on my own, but I'm hoping my friends out there have already saved some good links. Or if not links, give me your best shot at what arguments you think will work best.

eileen from OH

[Alice Franken]

1. Do you really have to put yourself through this?

If you do, get the ammo at Target.

[UTUSN]

7. Am Leaving the CONTENT Advice to Others

Really, "debating" is pointless with true believers of whatever stripe. Nobody is going to admit defeat or change their beliefs. Just be the CLASSIEST person in the joint. Don't argue. Give soulfully profound, empathetic (pitying), long looks. Then tell a deeply compassionate story about people you have actually seen who needed help or greatly benefitted in a worthwhile way from being helped. Attack and you are lost, especially if you are outnumbered.

[bookman]

2. Contract with America

Remember that?

There's some ammo there. Balanced Budget, Term Limits, etc.

[Indiana Democrat]

3. How about rising above the fray and...

...just enjoying your family?

Here in Nowhere, Indiana, I'm surrounded by non-Democrats...I just avoid the subject altogether. Besides, I'm such a political junkie, it's like shooting fish in a barrel anyway. And I don't like making such fools of my friends and family.

That's the way I see it, anyway. :)

[Alice Franken]

8. Actually, you put me to shame.

That's the really nice way of saying what I intended in #1.

Thanks!

[Indiana Democrat]

10. No shame.

I think we all get caught-up in the internet battles. But personally, what I see on the internet, I literally almost NEVER see in the real world.

Have fun with your family. But, there's nothing wrong with a few well-placed zingers either. :)

[Killarney]

4. Do they respect McCain?

If so, Google some of the latest McCain stories. He spoke out against Bush's insane spending and said he's spending like a drunken sailor.

Appeal to them on fiscal conservatism. Bush is out of his mind with spending.

Here's a good one too... by this time in his administration Reagan had vetoed 22 spending bills. How many has Bush vetoed? NONE. Bush is out of his mind. He created the largest deficit in the history of the US. When they stammer that it's due to 9/11, hit them with this... 55% of his new spending has to do with non-defense, non-homeland security.

Appeal to them on money. That's the best way with repubs.

The deficit, the value of the dollar (which is in the shitcan right now), unemployment figures, spending, big government (Bush has created the largest govt we've ever had), refuses to close business tax loopholes (google "Bermuda clause"), increased "pork spending" (conservatives hate pork bills), etc.

Good luck. Let us know how it went. :)

[Kolesar]

5. The energy bill was nothing but tax breaks for campaign contributors

Note that it did not pass.
try:
www.nrdc.org

The Medicare Rx bill was nothing but a sending business to the insurance companies at taxpayers' expense.

[BOSSHOG]

6. Insist he proves anything he asserts

Conservatives are trained to let their volume overshadow their arguments lack of substance thus their credibility. They think if they can intimidate the listener there will not be a challenge. Egg him on though. Ask him why bush deserted his military unit. When he froths and says he didn't, insist he prove it. Ask him why bush profited from insider trading at harken (a federal crime) and isn't in jail. When he froths and denys, insist he prove that bush was above board (and legal) in his financial transactions. And just for good measure, to ruin your get together, ask him why his daughters are drunken sluts, and why his mother is a ranting, ignorant lunatic, and why conservatives have to pay hateful people millions of dollars to broadcast on the radio every day lies about their fellow conservatives. Just a few hints. Enjoy the visit.

[LiberalFighter]

9. Depends on the type of gun you need.

[alcuno]

11. I agree with the post saying it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

My way of dealing with conservatives is just to ask a lot of questions. I stopped the whole conversation the other day with my family by simply stating that I consider it a bad idea for ANY government to be run by leadership who have apocryphal tendencies. People with nuclear weapons MAY, in a time of national crisis, see themselves as living out a part of the Book of Revelations. They could make it a self-fulfilling prophecy

George W. Bush is clearly an apocryphal president.

[zbdent]

12. If she declared it a no politics zone and he starts, look her in the eye

and ask "Did you get permission from him to declare this a no-politics zone?"

Or something along the lines of - "He broke the gentleman's agreement I had with you, not me. I'm not biting."

[kodi]

13. the budget and loss of privacy rights are conservative talking points

for the budget, and federal deficit, recall that bush has abandoned the standard conservative position of a balanced budget, and what he has done by passing on the RESONSIBILITY to the next generation, hardly fitting the conservative philosophy of personal responsibility.

or personal rights, the patriot act where american citizens under bush have been held without seeing a lawyer and the apparent suspension of habeas corpus, thus viewing the US constitutional rights granted from a "relativistic" (and thereby "radical") perspective.

when it is counted with "we're at war" parry with "even in war, americans should not have to give up THAT freedom" and mention that when lincoln did it, he was excoriated for it afterwards by conservatives most of all.

repeat after me......."we should not burn down the village that houses our rights to protect them."

[zbdent]

14. Ask why the deficit was a major concern to Repukes

to the point that the deficit numbers were continually quoted daily TO THE PENNY in the Congressional Record, until 9/11.

[zbdent]

15. Ask if Human rights violations are such a great reason to go to war

and oust a brutal dictator, why weren't they valid in 1993-2000? (Haiti, Kosovo, Milosovic)

[zbdent]

16. Ask if one American military person's life was worth all that oil

if the human rights violations in Haiti, Somalia, and Kosovo were not worth one soldier's life in 1993-2001, when there was no "national interest" at stake?

[FreedomSpirit]

17. Have a look here

http://conservativesagainstbush.com/

Should give you some good ammunition

[newyawker99]

26. Hi FreedomSpirit!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[TolstoyAndy]

18. Bush is a gun-grabber

and is for open borders.

[BeatleBoot]

19. My New Line to the Right is...

"I just can't warm up to a guy who thrives on disaster"

[H2O Man]

20. Three Good ideas!

(1) True fiscal conservatives know that Bush has destroyed the economy. (2) True leaders do not have to lie -- where are the weapons of mass destruction? (3) Grown men do not wear power rangers uniforms to feign being rough and tough. On 5-1-02, he disgraced himself by wearing his silly uniform on the ship.
Do not let your friend sway you from these three points. Just stick to them, and he will only have one alternative: to justify the unjustifiable.
PS- can you imagine if he put on a football uniform to greet the SuperBowl winners? People would laugh at him. Well, folks, it's easier to win a football game than a war.....

[Robbien]

24. The first point is good

I would stay away from attacks on Bush directly (such as lies, WMD and playing dress-up soldier) since the right wing just doesn't listen. The big spending, big government policies of the Bush administration is a point the right wing has difficulties accepting. They also do not agree with the loss of constitutional rights. So those are the two points where we can get some movement.

[Selwynn]

21. Do you like these people? Then how about just have dinner...

...and not turn it into a fight?

[wtmusic]

22. Ask questions

always the best tack to take.

Do you think Bush is honest?

Was it worth the tax cuts to put every household in America $5000 in debt?

etc.

[leftofthedial]

23. what sort of weapon do you plan to use?

[eileen from OH]

25. Thanks, one and all. . .

Oh, and to those who say to avoid it and it's not worth it, etc, etc.. . .there's a good possibility we will avoid it and even if we don't we ALWAYS emerge from it, laugh at ourselves and each other by the end of the evening, and have remained good friends despite it. This is not a case of arguing with mindless freepers - except for an over-reliance on Fox news, I think! And I DO stay very cool, it never gets personal or ad hominum, or nasty, on either side. I'm actually interested in what they have to say and want to be prepared with more than just my opinion. Again, while I don't think I could sway him, I think she is not a lost cause at all and is independent enough to go her own way.

All that being said, thank you all so much for the ideas, tactics, and links.

eileen from OH (did I mention I love to talk politics as well as write about it? I definitely won't bring it up, but if he does, well, . . .)

[Serenity-NOW]

27. Serve Jelly Beans courtesy of Ron Reagan! n/t

[Columbia]

28. I concur with others

Enjoy your dinner and stay out of talking about politics. No use in getting upset and not accomplishing anything at the same time.

[gulliver]

29. Enjoying that steak?

Thanks to Bush and Congressional Republicans, it could be from a downer cow.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/23/health/main590039.shtml?cmp=EM8705

[MrPrax]

30. Why argue...convert?

Make them explain one of the worst Administration's in US history and have them 'defend'

Why do 'leftist' need ammo these daze?

[libview]

31. Don't even discuss politics, if you can't spend quality time

with people you don't agree with politically, that's sad.