Suit seeks to ban sales of violent video game.

[DrWeird]

<http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/fun.games/01/01/videogame.suit.ap/index.html>

I'm waiting for these people to sue to stop sale of the Bible. After all, it depicts violence towards philistines. And people who want to take away other peoples first amendment rights are philistines.

Your thoughts?

[Addledwits]

1. Ahh The Stupidity

As an owner of this game, I can say that these people are grossly twisting the context of that line in the game. They just want attention. That is how it gets in South Florida (where I live). There is always some big contraversy, Elian, NAFTAA, This crap. It is always funny to watch.

Wooo first post after lurking for a while.

[NewJeffCT]

2. welcome to DU

Welcome aboard.

Can you give us old folks who are limited to mostly turn-based strategy games due to older, slow reflexes a run down of Grand Theft Auto? Why would one think it is denigrating Haitians, or are they taking it out of context?

[Heyo]

3. No news story has mentioned...

..That you work WITH tha Hatians during a large part of the game...

It's part of the story..

It's not like you turn on your X-Box (or whatever) and right away "Kill the Hatians!!" pops up on the screen and that's it.

You are helping the Cubans in a fight against the Hatians, but you play both sides of it in the game, and in some parts you help the Hatians against the Cubans. (3 missions each way as a matter of fact)

The Hatians are just another gang in the game.. along with the Italian mob guys, Cuban gang members, Hatian gang members, and various other street gangs and rif raf... (and hookers)

Heyo

[seaglass]

4. So does it also say kill all Cubans? And kill all Italians?

I know this game is defended by many but if it really says kill all
Haitians, how is that defensible?

[Heyo]

6. The scene in question.. (the "mission actually")

... is that you have to grab the sniper rifle....

Climb up on the roof of this building.. where right across the way, the Cubans get in a huge fight with the Hatians...

This particular missions is working for the Cubans...

You have to help the Cubans in the fight... by shooting the Hatians before all of the Cubans are dead.

And at the start it says "Kill the Hatians" on the bottom of the screen. (for a very prief period of time.. just long enough to read what you're supposed to do.. which you may not know until it tells you that)

Keep in mind.. this is an adult game, and it is pretty violent..

(Also one of the most fun video games I have ever played.. admit it you love it too.. }( )

In other parts, you DO kill Cubans.. and you have a HUGE battle with the Italian mob... but in none of the other missions do the words come up on the screen "Kill the Cubans" or "Kill the Italians"...

The part they are objecting to is where it says "Kill the Hatians" ON the screen, and then you are supposed to snipe at the Hatian gang...

(you also kill pimps, drug dealers, various other people... sell drugs out of an ice cream truck... stick up stores with a gun..steal cars... run from cops.. shoot down police helicopters, etc)

This whole game is pretty violent.. to single out this part is retarded... seems like more of a "technicality" to me.

-Heyo

[seaglass]

7. I only singled out this part because that's what the article is

about.

Both of my kids are dying to get this game, neither of them will. That's not to say that they haven't played it over friend's houses before I ever heard of the game.

Probably if you were Haitian you wouldn't consider it a technicality.

[Heyo]

10. honestly...

If it said "Kill the Germans".. (which my family is)...

I wouldn't mind... just part of a story..

If I was Hatian and I saw JUST THAT ONE PART, I might be offended.. but being presented as just a small part of the (rather large and extensive) game in it's entirety, it would not bother me in the slightest.

I think it's another situation where it's something being taken out of context and judgements made without looking at the whole enchilada... happens with music and movies and everything other art form.

Not that I don't agree with you not really wanting your kids to play GTA.. I certainly do respect your opinion there.

See everyone? Informed parental guidance in action! Bravo.

We don't really need the government taking that role.

-Heyo

[Hippo_Tron]

32. Agreed completely...

Government does not need to be telling people what video games can be sold and which can't be. At the same time if I had kids I wouldn't let them play GTA until they were at least 13 or 14.

[seaglass]

58. This isn't about the government telling people what they

can or cannot play, it's about a group of people who are offended because they feel they are being targeted in this game.

The stupid game designer should have used made-up gang names, then no one would have been offended and everyone could go merrily on their way.

[Heyo]

60. Agreed...

They feel as though they're being targeted...

Most people informaed about the game know they're not being targeted..

They probably should have made up fake gang names...again I agree with you.

But anyone can say they FEEL targeted.... that's to much of a judgement call to be banning games over...

Which reminds me.. is that something that still exists in the country? The concept of a "judgement call"?

Let's look at this... there's a street gang called the Latin Kings in NYC, I'm sure alot of you have heard of them.....

WHat if there was a movie or game or something that invloved killing the Latin kings while they were fighting with another gang...? Would then Latin people feel targetted? Would people be saying it's calling for assasinating rulers of Latin countries?

All this could have been solved, though, by the above poster's idea to use fake gang names.

Cheers all.

Heyo

[rman]

66. then again, some people claim to be offended by anything..

like head scarfs being a "sign of agression" (France Prime Minister)..

And some people used to be offended (maybe some still are) by blacks sitting next to whites (in the bus, restaurants).

So, should we simply avoid the possibility of offending anyone?
You never know in advance what some people may be offended by - and in some cases the cause of the offence is within those being offended.

Also take note that a vast majority is not offended - yet they to would not be able to play that game if this minority action group gets its way. If you start giving in to any claim of offense, soon there'll be a 'tyranny of the minorities'.

[Skittles]

16. OK, now could you please explain

how you possibly find this ENTERTAINING ???

[DrWeird]

17. Ever watch Scarface?

or Goodfellas?

Or The Sopranos?

[Skittles]

42. actually, no

I find the senseless violence sickening

[DrWeird]

52. So do I.

But this isn't violence. It's fiction.

[Heyo]

22. well...

"how you possibly find this ENTERTAINING ???"

It may seem wierd, but the best way to answer that would be to have you sit down and play it....

There's something about the game that is just so stress relieving, for one thing... it is indeed intellectually engaging and is really fun to play.. some of the car chases I played over and over again.

Can't speak for other people, but the violence factor is not the reason why I like it. It's an all around really good game.

It's just like playing a movie.

Best way to understand why people like it so much is to try it... not to say you'll like it but you'll know right then either way.

-Heyo

[Skittles]

43. sorry

I can relieve stress without resorting to animation of senseless violence.

[chefgirl]

46. But Skittles

With all due respect, because I really do love all your posts, the fact that you don't find it entertaining and someone else does is exactly the issue.
If they find it entertaining, they have every right to play it, just as you have every right not to.
I'm not defending this game. I let my 14 yr old son rent it once. I was not impressed with the violence (beating up a prostitute, dragging people out of their cars and beating them up to steal them, etc...).
I just think that banning ANY video game, or movie, or music or whatever is overkill (pardon the pun).

-chef-

[MacCovern]

49. You don't define "entertaining" for everybody....

based on your definition of entertaining. This is a free country still, sort of, and if it doesn't violate your rights then people will continue to be free to play whatever video games they want to play.

[rman]

67. i don't think entertainment value is the issue here

you don't mean to say no-one should play this game because you think people should not find it entertaining?

[ButterflyBlood]

18. exactly

this is ripping something totally out of context and is riduculous. stupid anti-video game fascists.

[DrWeird]

14. How is it defensible?

It's a work of art. Schindler's List depicted the attempt to kill all the jews. Should ticket sales of that be banned?

[seaglass]

26. OK, was the depiction of killing all Jews in Schindler's List

presented as a good thing?

[DrWeird]

51. Is it depicted as a good thing in GTA?

Does Shakespeare depict the defeat of the french at Agincourt in Henry V as being a good thing?

[seaglass]

59. Would you object if the game said kill the fags?

Or would that not get in the way of your fun either?

[DrWeird]

61. Why do you resort to prejudiced slurs?

But if their was a game in context where you where hired by a cuban gangsta to wage a gang war against a violent homosexual gang then no, I wouldn't object.

[ButterflyBlood]

19. it does not say kill ALL hatians

it says "kill the hatians", referring to a hatian gang below fighting with the cuban gang. you're working for the cuban gang, so you're aiding them. hardly advocating xenocide or anything of the sort.

[seaglass]

27. So then Haitians should have no objection?

They are being silly to take this personally?

[ButterflyBlood]

30. in my view, no

and if you actually played the game you would see how minor of a thing this is. much like how the whole "kill the prostitute" crap in the GTA III was blown way out of proportion.

[newyawker99]

55. Hi Addledwits!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[creativelcro]

5. GTA ROCKS!

[coolhand27]

8. After that mission....

After that mission where you snipe the Hatian gang, you are not welcome in Little Haiti anymore. Anytime you go through Little Haiti, you will be shot at by the Haitians. Sometimes you can go through unnoticed, but if a gang member recognizes you, there will be 5 or 6 Haitians shooting at you in a matter of seconds.

BTW, best game I've ever played.

[Heyo]

12. yeah...

They always end up shooting out my tires while I'm on my way trying to do something... :o

Heyo

[newyawker99]

56. Hi coolhand27!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[DS1]

9. I think I'm going to buy a video game this weekend

F em.

[creativelcro]

34. When is the new Doom coming out?

[LifeDuringWartime]

11. lieberman's wet dream

remember postal?

http://www.gopostal.com/news/lieberman-reportcard97.php

http://www.gopostal.com/news/lieberman-musiclyrics.php

[DrWeird]

13. Vaguely.

Why can't somebody make a game where you get to shoot up nazi scumbags who want to do away with the 1st amendment?

I mean besides Wolfenstein and Medal of Honor.

[Deja Q]

15. I recall a game made for the KKK - you can guess what the goal is...

Jews, blacks, latinos and the slaughtering of... (replace the PC descriptors with the vile ones at your leisure) I'm sure there's plenty of homosexual male targets in bonus rounds too... :eyes:

I recall a peep made in the press, but nothing more.

http://www.adl.org/videogames/default.asp

http://www.shame.org/detail.html?212

[ButterflyBlood]

20. I'm part German. I want all WWII games outlawed

after all you kill Germans in them.

[Heyo]

21. Me too...

Good example... my mom was born in Germany and I love Medal of Honor.

-Heyo

[Kellanved]

23. so do many in Germany

call of duty; medal of honor ... bestsellers in Germany.
Wolfenstein was banned (because of swastikas and excessive violence; nudity isn't a problem in Germany, but violence is. Wolfenstein was deemed excessive in that department).
Games like that aren't a problem (unlike in Japan AFAIK) - we're used to generations of movies with Germans as the evildoers, so a game isn't a suprise.

But there is a binding advertising stop for games not considered appropriate for minors and strict age control in stores.

[MrSlayer]

24. Vice City is great.

Probably the best game ever created for consoles. Ethnic Cleansing is a shit game in comparison, weak Doom type engine, poor controls and no real plot.

[Superfly]

25. I support this suit. GTA is evil and should be banned.

Won't somebody please think of the children?

<just kidding>

[seaglass]

28. How about won't somebody please think of the Haitians?

They're the ones that are objecting, not children.

Nice, easy excuse though.

By the way, I don't believe in banning the game, I've shot my share of anonymous aliens in my day, I just happen to think the Haitians have a right to object and I think it's disgusting that the game designers think this is OK (and players too, I guess).

[Heyo]

31. What gets me...

...is that the "kill the hatians" message is probably 1/1000th of 1 percent of the content of the game.

Like someone mentioned above... a game like this should be treated in all respects like a movie similar to Scarface....

Whatever type of parental or sensetive viewer consideration you'd take with Scarface or the like should be taken with something like this game.

That is such a miniscule part of the game.. It think if it wasn't a news story few people would have actually given much though to that line, other than as just more of the game telling you what to do in the scene like it does in every other mission.

If I was Hatian it would NOT bother me in the slightest..

"The Hatians" is the name of the gang in vice city, just like "The Cubans" is.. it's not referring to the race of people from Haiti.

regards,
-Heyo

[ButterflyBlood]

39. exactly

it's telling you to take out a rival gang, not participate in a racist massacre.

[creativelcro]

45. yup...

[ButterflyBlood]

40. if you actually played the game

you would see how minor of an issue this is.

please quit listening to this blown out of context anti-video game propaganda.

just another addition: the game has you shooting and killing cops a lot, yet my friend's dad, who is a cop, loves it. he can obviously handle it, I don't see why the Hatians can't.

[yella_dawg]

29. Once you get far enough...

I think it's after you steal the tank...

You can steal a cop helo, fly out to the Army base, and with a little practice and patience, steal the attack helicopter. Then you can *really* kill Hatians.

[Hippo_Tron]

33. Why does the government have the right to ban video games?

Can you say major violation of free speech.

[Heyo]

35. They don't..

Plain and simple... they don't.

Heyo

[Cocoa]

37. probably not THAT simple

unfortunately, this story doesn't say anything about the law involved.

[creativelcro]

44. Absolutely. Pathetic... Ban violent videogames

but not the real guns. It will not happen on freedom of speech grounds.

[MacCovern]

48. Lawsuit will never succeed in court

This will not get very far in the court system.
Anyone can sue for whatever reason they want to.

[TeeYiYi]

36. I was all ready to begin my rant . . .

. . . against the game based on the biased CNN linked article until I read the entire thread and Heyo's descriptions. It's obvious that this has been blown way out of proportion. Now I just want to play the damn thing. Another example of 'no such thing as bad publicity'.

TYY

[ButterflyBlood]

41. more proof

that people should actually play video games before bitching about them.

[Bush loves Jiang]

38. It was bad enough.,..

When a majority of Haitian Quebceker traitors voted in favour of breaking up my country. And now they do this. Good thing the only Haitian I know personally is a damn nice person. :-P

[citizen snips]

47. Best Damn game I have ever played.

This lawsuit is very stupid. In vice city you work for ever almost ever gang even the Haitians.

If the Haitians hate vice city so much why don't they just make up there own game.

[Heyo]

50. I have 84% complete on Vice City

I still have alot of hidden packages to find, and a few of those unique stunt jumps.. plus a few rampages...

I bought the double pack (GTA:III and GTA:Vice City together) and was going to try and 100 percent Vice City before I broke out GTA3.

But I am thinking about just breaking out 3 anyway...

I'll probably end up with all the missions complete on both games and all the little stuff left over to get 100 percent.

I'm at the point where I want to do more missions... I have driven around the city for HOURS looking for those hidden packages and I have found less than half... I have the map, but even with the map, the locations are not exact and you really have to search. Plus I got the map AFTER I had already found a bunch of them.. so I don't know which ones on the map that I have already found. :shrug:

I love the non-linear gameplay that is offered by the GTA series.

Plus 54 bucks for BOTH of those games, it really was a good deal, plus it comes with a Rockstar Games sticker and 2 posters.

-Heyo

[citizen snips]

64. I have completed 100% of the game.

I had to start a new game sometimes because I could not find all of the packages. You have to go in order on what the map tells you. There are a lot of cool surprised once you complete the whole game.

[MrPrax]

53. Don't ban them...

but in this particular case the manufacturer has gone overboard identifying an individual group...and has such crossed the line.

Interestingly this game takes place in the early 80s (retro!! based Maimi Vice) and it would make more sense to 'kill' Cubans from the Freedom flotilla? Why they chose Haitians is anyone's guess...and of course there is the part about the hookers in the game...

[DrWeird]

54. Maybe if this were a white supremacist game...

it might make sense to kill of the Cuban flotilla.

However, in the context of the game, this part of the game in question comes when you are hired by an angry cuban ganglord to kill haitian gangmembers in a big gang war. You can also work for the Haitian mob boss and kill the cuban gangsters, playing both ends against the middle. The climactic battle you fight against your former italian mafia in an almost direct rip off of the final scene in De Palma's Scarface. You can also work for a british punk band, a Texan realestate mogul, mysterious Germans, and some redneck bikers.

And yes there are also prostitutes in the game. Although I have no idea what problem people have with that.

So could you elaborate how this goes "over the line" by "identifing an individual group"?

[Heyo]

57. It wouldn't make more sense..

to chose Cubans.. and "why they chose Hatians" in that part is nobody's "guess"...

It is what it is....

...part of the story.

This game is a STORY not a mindless bloodbath of trying to see who to kill because it's the 80's.

It has a plot.

-Heyo

[ButterflyBlood]

69. you do kill Cubans as well

the Cubans and Hatians are rival gangs and both hire you to do their missions.

[NashVegas]

62. It Should Be Up to Adults

A friend of mine was talking about this game the other day, about his kids playing it, and about his discomfort with the violence level.

The question I come back to is, if this were a board game, is it something you'd want in your house? Is this something you would play in front of with real people you were acquainted with?

[DrWeird]

63. A board game?

That's not a great analogy, but yes I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Now let's say it were a movie- Scarface. And a group of Columbians wanted to prevent people from seeing it because the Al Pacino character hates columbians.

Or let's say it's a book- Huckleberry Finn, and a group of people want to ban it because their are racist characters who use the term "nigger".

Would you be ashamed to be reading Huckleberry Finn in front of people you know?

[fujiyama]

65. The suit will go nowhere...

and that's good because it's definetely the right for manufacturer's to make extremely violent video games.

I remember when Columbine happened, the media tried to make it out that anyone that played DOOM deathmatches was destined to shoot their classmates.

Well oddly enough, several years BEFORE Columbine, my friend and I had desined a very crappy mod that was supposed to be modelled after our middle school.

Did we end up as psycho crazed killers? Hardly, my friend is now working on his PhD at a very prestigious college. I'm still in undergrad, but we still haven't killed anyone, and have no plans to (I doubt my friend does either).

As for whether it was smart for the game company to include the line "Kill the Haitians" while not including "Kill the Italians" and "Kill the Cubans", well probably not. It gives the impression that the game is biased. I seriously doubt it is. It seems like that law suit against HBO because the Sopranos supposedly displayed Italian Americans in a bad light. Then again had they included messages to kill the various other groups, they would have simply pissed all those groups off.

Off course as I see it, I'd rather piss all the groups off, rather than only one or two. That way it's easier to claim there's no bias -- and that you simply hate all groups equally!

[McHrozni]

68. Geeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz ...... can they be more stupid?