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Bush Will Win in 2004 and There's Nothing We Can do About It

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bobd Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:30 PM
Original message
Bush Will Win in 2004 and There's Nothing We Can do About It
My premise is based on some assumptions that are most certainly up for discussion. The keystone assumption is this: Presidential elections are a referendum on the incumbent’s job performance over the previous term. Put another way – the 2004 election is about how well Bush has done over the last 4 years. The electorate (what’s left of them) votes accordingly. That’s why Gore won in 2000. Clinton did a very good job at governing. Given this premise of Bush’s job performance, things look pretty good for us, right? Sadly, however, times have changed and with it the meaning of “job performance”.

How does the electorate judge whether or not the incumbent has “done well”?

The economy
People look at their lives and ask: “Am I employed? Do I feel that I’m paid sufficiently to make ends meet? Can I make ends meet?” If yes, the guys in power are a leg up. If not they’ll look at what other, perhaps more knowledgeable, people are saying about it all. In this case I firmly believe that much of what passes for “the economy” is what‘s perceived to be the health of the economy. At this point the news media is frothing about how the economy is rebounding, about how the stock market is once again manically creating “wealth”. People will hear this and, even though they themselves might not be doing so well, jump on the bandwagon and withhold judgment. They’ll say, “If I just wait a bit longer things will probably pick up for me again. After all, everyone is saying things are getting better. Voting in a new guy might really queer things. I think I’ll stay with the status quo.” Baring a major, unambiguous economic meltdown this issue is Bush’s. Again – it’s a perception thing at this point for a lot of people and the media is not gonna dis Bush on this. They should but they won’t. The won’t because they’re part of our society and are pushed and pulled by the same impulses that drive the rest of us. The changed times really are calling them to Mordor. Keep reading to find out why.

The War
Saddam’s capture has all but trumped the US casualties. His capture appears to be sufficient justification in the minds of many (mostly white males) for all the blatant lies upon which the war was based. Iraq wasn’t involved in 9/11? “Well, maybe not but we got Saddam.” There really were no WMDs? “Well, maybe not but we got Saddam.” Iraq wasn’t any kind of a threat at all? “Well, maybe not but we got Saddam.” This attitude, I believe, goes much further than the refusal to believe that blatant government lies caused and is now causing all this carnage. I think it’s more related to the outright worship of winning at all costs that this society has so enthusiastically embraced. People were mad when the Iraq War was perceived as a losing effort. After all we’re the US of A! We’re winners! We’re smarter than those camel jockeys! Now that we got the head guy we really are winners. The killing, the suffering, the enormous cost is irrelevant to the emotional high of winning.

Religion and the American Dream
People unquestioningly assume that religion is a good thing. People assume that ethics and morality stem directly from religion. Better yet, people love it when one wears religion on one’s sleeve. They perceive such braying as evidence the brayer is conscious of ethics and morality and that their behavior is affected for the better by it. The brayer has a great deal of personal piety and can, therefore, be trusted. Moreover, if that brayer is a winner, perhaps a warrior winner, then it’s concrete evidence that “god” has blessed him and that he is indeed moral and ethical and can be trusted with our physical well being. The repukes have effectively leveraged this purely emotional response to religion to their great advantage. It’s interesting that the liberal versions of religion place emphasis on social activism – things like working for justice, turning the other cheek, helping the poor and needy, all activities that require the giving away of the things associated with the great American dream of individualism: the acquisition of personal wealth, property, and power. The personal piety model of religion, conservative religion, requires none of this “bleeding heart” activism. As long as one claims to be religious, attends church regularly, and speaks the proper code words one can have the best of both worlds. As a whole, our society is just not attuned to working seriously for equality, justice, and enlightenment. Why should they when they can have theirs at the expense of someone else and religion itself (via sufficient personal piety) endorses it all. Flipping things would require an attitudinal sea change born of significant painful events. Sadly, I see this highly emotional, powerful issue as Bush’s and there’s just not a lot we can do to counter it in 11 short months.

The Euphoria of Revenge
9/11 has given permission for us as a people to finally extract revenge against those that are different from us. We’ve been longing for it since the Civil Rights era. Since it’s generally taboo to extract such revenge against our fellow citizens (although police brutality activity over the last few years draws the covers back for a peek at what’s still lurking underneath), we can now lash out at foreigners, via governmental permission (pre-emptive war), at who we want, when we want, for whatever reason we want. Easy targets are poor “backwards” countries populated with brown people (Iraq, Iran, Syria, N. Korea). We even extend our hatred and revenge impulses to European countries that may look like us but really aren’t all that like us (France). Bush and his “government” have even given permission to kill brown foreign people for no reason whatsoever (Iraq). Moreover, his personal piety provides the requisite stamp of ethics, morality, and rugged American Individualism on the entire chimera. This is heady, powerful, emotional stuff. It speaks directly to the reptilian portion of our brains. It tells us to let go, react emotionally, and we’ll be protected here on earth and later in “heaven”. Logic and rational discussion just can’t counter-act the ennobled mob.

Turning things around sufficiently to win in 2004 will require an event or events that will snap the public back to the reality of what they’re contemplating. Another large-scale terrorist attack might do it. An economic melt-down might do it. Troops in the street gunning down unarmed citizens might do it. All highly unlikely. At this point I don’t expect the citizenry to react other than emotionally at the ballot box. Bush is giving people what their reptilian brains so desperately want by promising them the euphoria of the fight, enough booty for everyone, and the explicit permission to give in and reap the riches.

The long, dark night begins.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree that Bush has the advantage right now
but the war in Iraq is still a big variable, and though the economy is growing, job growth appears weak. 10 months is an eternity in politics.
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ochazuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
80. Conditions need to change soon
It's not so much the situation on election day as the perception, which lags.

For example, in 1992, unemployment peaked around June, but Bush-I still lost the election because the electorate perceived the economy as in the tank. If the 1992 election could have been delayed a year, he would have won reelection I figure.

People are high on the showdown in the spiderhole for now, but a steady drumbeat of reports on the situation in Iraq may give them second thoughts on this world-domination thing. I'm not thinking they will though. They may just put up with the death-a-day we are suffering from now in the mistaken belief that it's the price of freedom.

I must say, the original post here by bobd is excelent analysis. When he mentioned the reptilian brain at the end I became convinced that bobd has a stranglehold on the truth of our situation.

The replys below which condemn the post as helping the Bushco campaign or being right-wing propaganda are disappointing. If we lose, it won't be because people like bobd see the truth and explain it so well.
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phillybri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. And you're going to help it happen!
Congrats! I can't wait to hear you say "I told you so" if Bush does win....

:grr:
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takebackthewh Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Man that's harsh.
So what should we do? Write off the 2004 election and start planning for Hillary in 2008?
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Why are you worried
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 05:04 PM by PaDUer
about Hillary? My, my...Hillary can kick any R ass when she runs!
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ochazuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
79. Prepare for the worst
Imagine if bushco win and the thugs get a filibuster-proof senate; what will you do?

People in NGOs need to think about minimizing damage in that environment. The courts may help for a while, but the fascist regime will just replace judges and ignore court edicts.

If the fascists want to privitize everything, people like Ted Turner and George Soros will be our best friends.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Fascism is a variant of socialism and advocates state ownership,
not privatization. Unless by Fascist you simply mean anyone you don't like.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Wrong. Fascism opposes socialism.
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 06:48 PM by 0rganism
What happens in fascist systems is that the wealthy and powerful take absolute control of the state, exactly the opposite of socialism. Fear of the "different" is used to promote xenophobia and nationalism. The government becomes a tool of the wealthy, used to promote further concentration of wealth rather than redistribution one would expect from a socialist state. Labor unions, poor people, and immigrant populations, all of which are common bastions of the left, are the popular targets for eradication under fascist regimes.

This isn't to say that socialist states can't be just as authoritarian as fascist ones, but not all authoritarian states are fascist, nor are they all socialist.

Franco and Mussolini are the best examples of fascism from the 20th century. Hitler (nazism) and Stalin (counterrevolutionary) are really different sorts of birds, although some of the tactics and goals were similar.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bullshit, you may as well log on to freerepublic and babble on
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dae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Was that you talking to Pat(hetic) Robertson? Just wondering.
:dem:
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. ummm?....go away........
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 04:48 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
you saiud, "keystone assumption is this: Presidential elections are a referendum on the incumbent’s job performance over the previous term"

HE HAS DONE A PRETTY SHITTY JOB!!!.....he will LOSE!!!
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
86. ummmm?.... read the post before you criticise, next time
The poster, bobd, makes no bones about the fact that, as you would say,

> HE HAS DONE A PRETTY SHITTY JOB!!!

He expresses some well-thought-out concerns about how media-reinforced perceptions of "the incumbent’s job performance" will resonate strongly with the neo-nationalists, trumping the fact that the president has done a shitty job.

We have a lot of hard work to do, if we're going to get bush out next year, that much is clear to me. bush* has not sunk himself, despite his best efforts.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. I hope you're wrong - perhaps the media will get ethics & report truth?
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 04:36 PM by papau
Not as far fetched as it sound.

Many want to now - and hate the story selection - and hate the - in some cases out right spin - and in all cases a spin to not annoy the GOP.

The control by paycheck of the GOP leaning editors/Directors may break if the staff really wants to join the rest of the world in at least trying to report truth - truth in context and not partial truth that gets the proper pro GOP spin.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. you wish...
I don't see it happening...
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. Pat Fitzgerald will bring him down
CIA/Plame. I just hope he can do it in time.

Also, I'm guessing Fitz will get a whiff of 9-11 misdoings. If so, he will not stop until he finds the truth.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. Oh, thanks for posting this new right wing propaganda
They seem to be getting posters to post 'oh we are doomed fellow democrats' on left wing bulletin boards. They are trying to demoralize the opposition because they cannot keep their own base voters happy.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. I hate your post
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 04:44 PM by donco6
But I fear you may be correct.

And NO, that doesn't mean I'm not going to do everything I can to topple that tin-pot dictator.

I just have to honestly admit I'm not terribly hopeful.
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stinkeefresh Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. well I think you should GET hopeful
because if your not going to risk the chance of "being heart broken" by "getting your hopes up" about this election, then what ARE you willing to risk?

I mean, how much does a little optimism cost you? Nothing. Risk of heart-break, big deal. Risk of being made fun of by your co-workers for betting on the wrong horse? Who cares?

To my biased eyes, Bush looks like the most beatable loser I've ever seen. And I'm going to keep saying it, loud and long, until Nov. 2.

Because lives are at stake here.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Oh, don't worry.
I have a lot at stake, personally, with a Dem loss this Nov. I will try to be more positive. I guess I'm just too much of a pragmatist these days.
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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. Bush is a loser in everything he does
He's never finished any job he's been given in his whole life; still there are some who want to reward him for his failures.:dunce: :hangover:
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. you are so fucking WRONG!.....bush has already LOST!
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stopthegop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. how has Bush already lost? n/t
.
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Tadah Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. heck I might even push for bush...

I may even push for bush if I have to give up my idealism. my idealism isn't with the democratic party.

I just can't see a difference and will consider giving Bush a "vote of confidence."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I'm quite sure you'll push for Bush....
Was there ever any question?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hoppin_Mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. LOL ! Kucinich supporter ? ? ?
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 05:20 PM by Hoppin_Mad
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Doom and despair! None will be spared! Nothing we can do about it, my ass. Would that we could be shut of such senseless ravings. Drink the hemlock already and spare us.
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waylon Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. From the tone of all the responses...
Id say he hit something here. From the outright hostility alone I would say that he may have hit a raw nerve.

I thought he made some good points. And I dont think he was condemning the effort, just throwing out the reality of the situation. We have 10 months to go, when do we face reality??

Things can change, but ingorance and beligerance wont get it done. I think we all need to reread this post and ask ourselves why it inflames us so much. Is it really a reflection on us, or our obligations?

I dont know about all of you but I work with several repubs so I am used to this type of message. It doesnt do anything to me but redouble my interest in "changing the pace"!!

I think that was the underlying message here, but I could be wrong.
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stinkeefresh Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. ridiculous
we're pissed because the ONLY thing Bush has to run on is his "inevitablity", which is a total fiction. So when Dems add to that by saying that Bush will be a tough competitor instead of a barely coherent loser it is pretty frustrating.

saying Bush will likely win is not in any way "facing reality", its called folding your hand in the face of a bluff.

we beat him last time by half a million. How many supporters you think he's picked up since then?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
55. oh man
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. We can if we run...
Hillary.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. I'm sure you'll be first in line to vote for her too.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. Bush is going to LOSE (again) and there is nothing HE can do about it!
He is the most hated American pResident in history - and folks across the country are starting to realize that electronic voting systems are easily rigged! Bush lost last time - and is now completely unelectable!! The polls are absolute BULLSHIT!!!
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stinkeefresh Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. truth
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
66. oh come on....
i don't share the 'we're doomed' mindset but saying the man who was just voted "most admired man in the country" is the most hated president is not realistic.

if we are going to pull this off, we need to ferret out the weaknesses and exploit them. it takes honest reflection and evaluation, not this sort of ridiculous blathering. if people really believe this, that he's hated, ergo, he'll lose, they won't fight the battle that needs to be fought.

"hey man...everybody hates bush...we've got this in the bag" is not helpful.
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mozart Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. bobd
Anything can happen in a few months like when his dim-witted dad had a 90% rating, and lost.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Your Post Makes It Even More Important That We Nominate
someone that clearly artculates our viewpoint. Since we're going to lose any way, why not shoot the moon.

The Economy

Alan Greenspan has created this "recovery" with very inexpensive debt. It will get Bush through his re-election, but the bill on this debt will come due. When it does, it will create the biggest economic collapse since the Great Depression. Right now, we don't have a single industry that's creating middle class level jobs. Meanwhile, Americans have been loading up on debt like a fat man at an all you can eat buffet.

The War and The Euphoria of Revenge

Yeah, it's great. Until these same White males have to actually go and fight. At some point, there will have to be some kind of military draft if the neocons want to invade both Iran and Syria. These same gung-ho White males will be knocking us down to get into the anti-war movement.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
29. Damn it, DO NOT throw in the towel! * and Rove are all too human...
And they *can* be beaten! True, * has been running the table of late, but he is vulnerable in so many ways.

To start with, roughly 50% of the voting population still thinks that * is full of s***. That's a great place to begin, and we can build from there.

Once the Democratic candidate shakes out, and all the infighting fades away, let's back himm like crazy, *whoever* he is.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
30. May I politely point out that the original poster is no longer
on the thread. One post and gone, so we're all just chasing our tails.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Yep, and the last time he posted how depressed he was
over how bad our chances are. This guy is Bush's secret agent over here, whether paid or not.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Thank you for clarifying that...
I wasn't sure of your meaning. I rarely notice things like the above, but felt compelled to read the entire thread, and the original poster was conspicuously absent. I am glad to know that your post wasn't aimed at me (I'm terribly fragile, and old and ugly to boot).:evilgrin:
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bobd Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Alerted the Mods???
For what? Having the wrong opinion on our chances? Only "were gonna win no matter what" posts are allowed? Is that what you want?
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Yes! Why would we want to see "Bush is going to Win, you losers you"
If you did not mean to be subversive and really wanted to talk about the campaign issues you would not have posted with this awful thread title.
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bobd Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. OK - Bad Thread Title Now?
So .. what you want is upbeat postings with upbeat titles. Please let me know what titles are acceptable. Also please let me know what the correct, allowed opinions are too. Sorry I don't please your delicate sensibilities.

Please note this: I am a Democrat. I have been a Democrat all my life. I've lived thru Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I and now Bush II. I've never voted for a Repuke for ANY national office as long as I've been voting (1972 - you still had to be 21 then) and I never will. I will vote ABB. I donate cash to the Democratic Party. I volunteer locally during presidential elections. As a US citizen (native born) I have a right a RIGHT to express contrary opinions. I refuse to accept the need some here have for only wanting to see upbeat posts. These are NOT upbeat times. My gut tells me the people of this country are not ready yet to do the right thing. That doesn't mean I won't participate in the mix in a way that feels right to me.

So there!
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bobd Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. I'm Still Here
Reading the responses, er, flames.

BTW: I'm NOT a freeper nor am I a GOP mole. I've never voted for a repuke in my life and I'll enthusiastically vote ABB.

What else ya wanna know?
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
34. Chimpyboy's lying ways will catch up with him long before election time.
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Somynona Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. Well...
I hope you're wrong
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
40. Your glass is half empty, Grasshopper
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 05:59 PM by Woodstock
Mine is half full. Join me.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. Marvin, the Depressed Robot
Trillian once exclaimed, "What Are you supposed to do with a manically depressed robot!?"

Marvin replied, "You think you’ve got problems, what are you supposed to do if you ARE a manically depressed robot? No, don’t try to answer that, I’m 50,000 times more intelligent than you and even I don’t know the answer. It gives me a headache just thinking down to your level."

_________________________

Or perhaps there's been an encounter with the Squid of Despair?



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
44. We do not know, yet! WAAAAY too early to say.
How many elections were already decided on 1/2??? Let's see:

1996
1984
1972
1964
1956
1932-44

So, is 2004 one of THOSE years?? I'm not convinced. Yet.
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
47. Thanks For Your Post....It's Great To Have You On Our Team!!
(extreme sarcasm)
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onecitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
49. Chill.........
then go sign up for group therapy and chemical intervention.

Seriously dude, you are depressed.
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
50. Bobd I won't flame you
Cause I think you did a decent job of bringing up some issues. I do think your title however detracts from the rest of the piece (Bush will win we cant do anything blah blah blah).

God forbid (and I really mean that), * could choke on a pretzel and that would negate your conclusion stated in your title.

Truth is, your title is damaging to DU morale as well as a lot of speculation. I believe DU'ers expect expect "it is futile to resist" pieces at freeper sites and unbiased new sources such as USA today and CNN /sarcasm.

They are not as tolerant of it here especially when it can't be proven.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
51. We've got a little something to help balance the scales.
The truth
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
52. you put a lot of work into that
too bad it's all jibber-jabber, just like the crap that's all over TV.

Bush is the worst president ever, he's going to lose big time.

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MarkTwain Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
53. Thanks, Bob....
... for the time you took to develop this analysis, as depressing as it is. It was thoughtful and contained many valid points.

Number one: I hope that the ultimate product of these points is not as you suggest but that a candidate of merit and worth exceeding that of the incumbent might prevail. General Clark.

Number two: I regret the far too many posts in this thread which showed that we are, many times, not at all better than the Free Republic in our need for group think. You deserved better for what were some rather cogent points developed and written in a very concise and logical manner.

Please try to ignore all of the boorish behaviour in this thread.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. "Bush will win and there's nothing we can do about it"
That's thoughtful?

It's "groupthink" to point out that that statement is jibber-jabber?

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MarkTwain Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Opinions are like......
"Bush will win and there's nothing we can do about it" That's thoughtful?

No. That is an opinion. One to which he is entitled especially after developing the thesis which he did. For my own thoughts on that result which he drew, please note point one of my own post in delicate disagreement.

It's "groupthink" to point out that that statement is jibber-jabber?

No. But, when you look at the anger, no the vehemence, the ad hominem, the accusations of Bob being less than a loyal Democrat, then yes, that is "groupthink." For comparable examples : www.freerepublic.com .

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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. If he would have posted
a title such as 'I see some problems here', a thoughtful discussion may have followed. But posting a defeatist title saying we are toast even before we start of course will bring out defenders. It is all in the way it is presented.
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. exactly
my only problem with this thread is the title.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
58. There's a chance, if...
The TRUTH behind 9-11 and Bush's War Of Terror becomes public knowledge. In just a few days there are SUPPOSED to be hearings into what the Kean Commission was allowed by the White House to discover.
Kean has made some statements indicating, despite what Democrat Lee Hamilton stated when the Commission was first formed, that he wants some heads on pikes. Perhaps he believes that the Bushies will offer up a fall person. Perhaps that is why Nat'l Security Flunky Condoleeza Rice has been asked to testify. Although, it would seem that the BFEE is exerting pressure on Kean to shut the hell up. The day after he made those statements, appearing on "Meet The Press", a haggard looking and seemingly cowed Kean backed off those statements .

I know that Karl Rove recognizes the danger if Condi (the oil tanker whore), who's professed Christian faith seems to include deceit, greed, theft and murder, is called to testify in public about her statements defending the inaction of the nation's defenses on 9-11. She's a terrible liar. He's no doubt put some nefarious plan into action.

Thus, I feel safe predicting that there will be a major new media distraction. Let us all hope that the BFEE doesn't decide to go for the jugular and stage a domestic WMD false-flag terrorist event to enact martial law. But just in case, I think everyone's internal Orange Alert should be raised to Red. I doubt it, though. There's many ways to keep the public looking the other way, as the Media displayed during the "capture of Hussein" story - that same day draconian provisions of Patriot Act II was quietly signed into law by the Dictator In Chief.

We should do all we can to prompt the mainstream media to actually report on the cause of the 9-11 widows and the Citizen's Investigation. If there's any chance, it's this. Pre-emptively getting the truth out to the public - before the BFEE can move to stop it. History has proven that even the best laid plans of tyrants and despots often go astray, mainly due to Voltaire's axiom "the pen is mightier than the sword" - and we do have the internet in this modern world.

However, as long as the "official story" (so specious in every aspect when investigated even casually)continues to remain unchallenged, then I agree with bobd.

For as long as the so-called "opposition" and the so-called "free press" continue to grovel in cowardice, and in many cases, outright complicity, while the BFEE uses 9-11 and "the euphoria of revenge" (great phrase! yours, bobd?) to aggresively and unscrupously pursue their neo-Fascist agenda, I fear there is no hope.

The economy? I'm sure it WILL be propped up by the privately owned Federal Reserve board until after their man Bush secures another term - after that, with Patriot Act II under his belt, it won't matter one whit. The loudest sound you shall then hear, will be the hammering of the final nail into the corpse of what used to be the envy of the world : American Democracy.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
60. Well how UNFrodo-like of you.
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 03:11 AM by Dover
Just stay in your hobbit hole....we'll let you know how it turns out.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
61. I'm skeptical of that argument
I don't think people break up these topics as cleanly into separate issues as may be imagined. I think most people sense, if we're going to assume an emotional response as the important one, that they're all interconnected.

To put on simplest terms, for most Americans the answer to 'Why is everything seemingly worse for people like me than four years ago?' just isn't "Two or three men living in caves for much of the time have ruined everything using Infinite Magical Powers(tm)".

I don't know about you, but in my part of the country the religious Right is past its peak. Sure, they're determined and feel quite righteous- on the side of the Angels- and give money and all that, but they're engaged in a painful debate with fatalism as their marginal members get exhausted and quietly leave the political Fight For The Soul Of The Country. Many of them never quite understood why the Greater Glory of God required legal sanctions against people who had never actually done them harm but went along with it as long as it didn't affect people they knew personally. They now feel a cognitive dissonance with the society as a whole, sense an unstoppable force in their lives outside their faith group now that The Liberals have proven inseparable and inextricable from the social mainstream and the social vanguard, a thing they refused to imagine 15 years ago and thought unlikely 10 years ago. They've been talking about End Times off and on since the unexpected calamity for them that was the Clinton Impeachment, five years ago. They've formed their lives around a Messianic ideal, a simplistic notion of being a Chosen People that worked well enough to help its adherents overcome the complications of American life until early this century. But the present large scale cultural/civilizational transition tears out the roots of their claim to power in the society.

As for the Euphoria of Revenge aspect, I'm sure you've got it right that it's almost all about projected/sublimated anger and hatred emanating from domestic problems at bottom. A lot of the pain from our race and class and assimilation based problems got thrown at Middle Easterners. But no resolution, no cathartic release has come of American attempts to "solve" the problems of the Middle East. It becomes another thing whose status and meaning is ambiguous.

So I don't think these topics really resonate coherently with voters. It looks more uniform and unified than it is, in part because reporters have to simplify things, when the reality is more about highly disparate (and not very rational) individual responses in a moderately complex and disorganized array of interlocked issues. The effect is to 'anger out' the electorate- to exhaust people emotionally and frustrate them cognitively, leading them into a second tier of emotion and frustration that seems- on closer inspection- quite disconnected from facts and issues in the real world.

I'm starting to think that the 2004 elections will look more like the 2000 elections again. The issues will be murky and disputed, there will be morality mongering and finger pointing. In 2000 the realest issue was what to do about the moral calamity of a federal budget surplus and The People simply voted their basic desires and dislikes. In 2004 the 'issues' will be just as unresolved by the facts, The People will not find in facts a way to remove significant ambiguity, and everyone will vote their bias/inclination again. It will take an energetic campaign effort to meet the Republican attempt to impose their set of answers upon the gullible.

Our side has a majority in bias/inclination in 2004, not just the plurality of 2000. After bleeding off the last conservatives to Perot and then Gingrich the Democratic candidate has gotten 43%, 46%, and ~49% in the last three Presidential elections. A consistent 3% vote Third Party and Republicans consolidated all the conservative votes in 2000.

New voters have tended to split between the Parties to a net gain of 3.5 million Democratic votes per four year election cycle and 0.5 million additional conservative (Republican) votes. There is a standard outflow in both directions (net to Republicans) but the extraordinary departure of conservative Democrats was pretty much done by 1996- it's a hard to see Bush really finding a lot of new conservatives in 2004. My impression is that the polling simply reflects Democratic-leaners not having gotten far in their decision-making process yet, and the noise by Republicans is only about the usual, somewhat inevitable, number of elder voters going conservative.

Rove has gambled a great deal on getting enough Republican voters supposedly gone passive, mostly self-identified conservative Christians, to the polling booths next November- a target of 3 million was mentioned in the Mehlman PowerPoint presentation of June 2002, and overtly said to be a counter to 3 million new Democratic voters. I do wonder whether those 3 million are still out there for him to find- surely few of them have died, but I'm inclined to real doubts that as a group they identify as conservative Christians and Republicans as they did in '92 and '96.

At equal rates of registration and turnout and with the issues neutralized among the swing voters- muddied beyond objectivity- Democrats have a mean expectation of winning 52%, R's 45%, and Third Parties 3%. Hard internal partisan effort to recruit swing voters and disgruntleds has tended to affect things by changes on the order of 1% (or, 1 million votes nationally) in elections during the '90s. Handing that to Bush, a 51-46 Democratic win awaits an adept nominee/challenger.

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bobd Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. Excellent Reply!
I guess the bottom line for me is my general distrust of the collective wisdom of the People, especially when issues are framed in such an emotion way as they're now being framed. 9/11 has really, IMHO, tapped into the darker impulses of our society and Bush and the Repubs have gone out of their way to leverage that into a lot of support for their dangerous policies. In his second inaugural address Lincoln spoke of calling forth "the better angels of our nature". As things stand now I just don't see people wanting to do that. I don't know if it's the revenge/lashing out factor, or the permission Bush has given the country to to give into their hatred and prejudices. Again, such permission is heady, powerful stuff, and I'm pessimistic that, given the current zeitgeist, The People will think twice about what they're about to do in 11/04.

Your post implies that you trust the collective wisdom of The People to do the right thing this November. I hope to god you're right.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob D.
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
62. Grass Roots Buddy
Even Rove has stated that the actions of a well focused and determined Grass Roots action can overwhelm even Him. His is GOP God after all.
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mbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Shrub will be defeated because he couldn't win an election for `
Dog-Catcher! They plan to cheat again with the touch screens I feel, but the thing which is not in their favor if that we're watching this time. In 2000 Al Gore conceded and then got tipped off at the last minute and took it back, but this time we know what to expect. On the economy, things are bad for the majority and you can see that just by the holiday sales. Walmart type stores didn't do as well as the up-scale ones did. Also, Hussein was captured which is a good thing, but it would never be good enough to get people to allow their sons and daughters to continue to be killed over there. Add these items to the fact that people are still trying to get their hands on the 9/ll information and the Valerie Plume thing is still being worked on. I can only hope that this totally evil corruption will end on election day 2004.
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
64. Bush will win in 1992 and there is nothing we can do about it.....
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 10:37 AM by OneTwentyoFive
That was all the rage back then. Bush kicked ass on SH and that was it,game over,no Dem's need to run,Bush has it sewn up.

Yeah right,except they found out that not having a job or a stagnant economy meant a HELL of alot more than getting SH out of Kuwait so they could go back to having their 10 servant's per household.

This ain't over by a long shot....


David
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
65. What a joke...
DU has become Freeperville...this one reads like few too many postings these days...RW punditry...

Bush is gone and can't possibly win another election...
His Dad didn't and America hates losers and long line up for flights...

Nuff said on trying to promote how Bush 'still' has the "(mostly white males)" or 'religion' or 'economy' vote...none of that translates into a renewed mandate...



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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
67. This poster is 100% dead on
If things stay status quo right now - the majority of voters are going to vote out of fear and complacency. That gives the advantage to Bush.

Something has to happen between now and November of 2004 that will expose Bush as the PNAC puppet - and more importantly - people have to understand what the PNAC is all about and that it is ahborant, morally bankrupt and destined to be ineffective in meeting any of its goals - namely peace and prosperity for this country.

If an event or course of events occurs which makes it impossible for AMericans to keep their heads buried in the sand - then it's imperative that the democratic nominee be in position to offer the anti PNAC.

It doesn't matter it's Clark, Dean, Kerry, any of the nine, or last minute desparation draft of Gore or Clinton.

Unless people see Bush as the PNAC puppet, and that the PNAC is leading us toward disaster, Bush will win.
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zanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
68. It's going to be VERY close
Alot of people are predicting another close election, and so am I. The Republicans will be voting like never before, but so will we. Also, we won't have the spoiler effect of Ralph Nader. Even if he did decide to run, he wouldn't get 1/10 of the vote he got last time. The Democrats who voted for Bush last time feel like they were used and won't vote for him this time. My dream, my fantasy, is that Bush wins the popular vote by about 500,000 votes and the Democrat wins the Electoral College and therefore, the election. (The Republicans would riot in the streets).
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NicRic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
70. With the Dems help ,yes he will !
However if the Dems unite strongly behind the nominee who in my opinion has the best chance to win,Westley Clark , we have a good chance to win in 2004. Iam sorry to all of the Dean supporters ,I do not have anything against Dean, and will vote for who ever the nominee is ! However I have a strong feeling that many voters that are on the fence will fall onto bushes side should Dean be the choice. The media is already starting to outline their talking points on attacking Dean .I would like to know what they are going to do ,to try and discredit a man like Westley Clark ! His appeal is much wider then even most Dems realize ,a non politician , strong on national security , a moderate etc etc ! I want so badly to see bush a one termer just like dear old dad . However the Dems have been shooting themselves in the foot time after time .I believe the Dems need to wake up , and if we really want to win pick Westley Clark as our nominee !
IMHO, Nick
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
71. You forgot a few things about the Economy...
A LOT of people out there who are still employed have seen their retirement investments disappear. I know more than a few people who have had to come OUT of retirement because of what happened to the Market. I'm not so sure *I* will be able to retire, and that Blessed Event is 17 years in the future...

The word is starting to spread that all this good news about the "recovery" is tied to the GDP. The word going out is that the GDP has NOTHING to do with most American worker's financial well-being. It's smoke and mirrors.

People ARE starting to question this "Jobless Recovery" propaganda. "The Economy's recovering, but I still don't have a job and I'm 5 months away from losing my house? WTF?"

Don't forget, the Economy is one of the things that killed Poppy.
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
72. how many who voted for gore or nader....
will vote for bush???

maybe none??

bush loses again!!
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Bobby Digital Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
73. Your conception of human psychology
is laughable and condescending.
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bobd Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Please Elaborate
How is is laughable and condescending?
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Bobby Digital Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. ok
It is laughable in it's horrible simplicity, and condescending for the same reason. The way you imagine the thought processes of the "masses"--with their imaginary inner dialog--is so far removed from how people actually think and live their lives. You summarize the decisions of millions of people in terms of a few illusory concepts such as "the economy" that you assume to control people's lives. If you can't see this then you have really been blinded by the phony logic of political thinking.
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bobd Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Well, How do You See "The Masses"
inner dialogue on the economy taking place? Additonaly, are you saying that the masses are unswayed by the purely emotional appeal that Bush and his cabal are using?
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Bobby Digital Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. I don't think something like a "inner dialog on the economy"
can be generalized for the whole population. You can't even assume all people think about the economy or consider it important.

I'm not saying that people aren't swayed by certain emotional tactics that bush uses. All I'm saying is that you have generalized wildly about something very complicated, and inaccurately enough so that your empirical predictions based on those generalizations are entirely worthless.

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aQuArius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
74. Don't give-up, get out there and get Dems to vote!
Shrub has a lot of support, espeially here in Texas, but I am NOT willing to give-up. I, personally, have not convinced myself to vote for Dean or Clark yet, but I know that if either of them win the primary I will be pounding the pavement to rally support. I have even entertained the idea of traveling to different states to do the same thing. If every person at DU would do the same, we could get one of them to Washington!
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
81. That is precisely why,
we need at least one third party candidate in the debate. If it's a two party debate it ends up being a middle-aged male bitch fight. But if we can't get a third party canidate in there ,who will talk about real issues of human suffering, we will have more of a chance. If people vote on Willie Horton issues and a misplaced trust in "leadership", we will lose everytime. If people worry about our children suffering in the future we will win the election with almost anybody. The fight will be to keep this election from being trivial like the ones we lost.
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veracity Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
83. Go ahead, fall right into the trap...
That Rove mantra: Bush is UNBEATABLE, and Dean is a loser. Repeat it often enough, and even the Dems will believe it. No way. This is winnable if the candidates start dealing with Bush and stop their circular firing squad activities. Bush lost the popular vote. Remember that. If Nader backs Dean - there is enough anger out there to win this. Stop falling into the trap the GOP is setting. A disheartened and pessimistic electorate will defeat itself.

Snap out of it. Get people to read Michael Moore's, "Dude, Where's My Country?" He has all the facts, resourced and documented - to show what Bush has done to deceive the world. Also.... have someone muffle Lieberman. He's a traitor to the party, big time. Circle the wagons. REFUSE to bad mouth any of the candidates.... and focus on Bush and his horrors.

Geeez.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
85. I'll take some of whatever you're smoking
I've had life long republicans tell me that they won't vote for Bush! I've seen the prices of groceries go up all around and have heard people grumbling about it being guess whose fault...George Bush! I hear people bitch about gas prices, complain about missed raises (which they blame on, yup, Bush) because of leaner budgets.

The only way Bush can win is if they rig the election.

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101 Proof Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
87. This is b.s.
Bush hasn't done one damn bit of good while in office. I don't know what you're smoking, and I don't want any of it. It's too bad you're falling for this RW propaganda now.
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