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Who is the most dangerous Supreme Court justice?

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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:26 PM
Original message
Poll question: Who is the most dangerous Supreme Court justice?
I've got to go with Fat Tony. When you figure that Scalia effectively casts two votes (Thomas tends to do as he is told), he's the one who scares me the most.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sandra Day O'Connor
Without her vote Scalia is nothing.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I see your point.
But it seems to me that at least occasionally O'Connor is on the side of the angels. I cannot recall EVER agreeing with a Scalia vote on any decision that wasn't 9-0. Also, as much as I despise him, I must admit that the fat little fucker can turn a phrase. This worries me only to the extent that he might be able to sway other justices in chambers.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. the next one and don't ever forget it.....
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texasmom Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
75. So true...
Those who say they won't vote for the Democrat if their candidate isn't the nominee aren't thinking about the stakes. Much more than four more years. It's chilling...
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I concur.
Consider what would have happened if O'Connor had voted with us in Bush v. Gore.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. O'Conner by far
because with the rest of the court split, right now the Constitution is whatever the heck Sandra Day O'Conner says it is, and that's too dangerous a position to have anyone in.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Please see post #21.
n/t
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. I agree that it's O'Connor, but for a different reason . . .
There is almost no consistency to the way she votes -- she's got nothing that serves as the basis for her decisions. At least you know what you're going to get with most of the others.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Antonin Scalia
Does not even try to disguise the fact that he is a right wing zealot, and that his decisions are driven purely by ideology. No way would this guy ever let something as trivial as the constitution get in the way of his rightist agenda.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. It is NOT Scalia
Scalia, it is said, is so abraisive and such a blind ideologue that he is unable to sway people to go his way. He is a lone wolf.

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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. what about Slappy?
Clarence "uncle" thomas is always quick to vote the way that Massa Scalia sez ta.
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Hogarth Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. Quite right
If Thomas had a mind of his own, Scalia wouldn't be the two-headed monster that he is.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's Scalia, and fascism
Clarence Thomas is his puppy dog. Scalia is a statist who would happily turn all power over to his fellow neo-cons. And I (a lawyer) have studied his intellectually inconsistent but always favoring the right wing powerful opinions.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. As a law student
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 03:22 PM by Sandpiper
What I've gathered from attorneys is a general consensus that Clarence Thomas is out of his league, and a man with his modest credentials never should have made it to the High Court.

Or am I wrong?
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Of course that's true
Clarence Thomas is the poster boy for affirmative action, yet condemns it despite his personal gain. What a joke. I went to law school (night school) in the early '80s (I am getting old) and remember how abysmal Rehnquist's opinions were at that time. Then, he was the worst. Brennan was the best.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Thurgood Marshall
Must be puking in his grave over being replaced by such a sellout.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You are absolutely right.
Thomas replaced Thurgood Marshall for Heaven's sake! Can you imagine the two men even being mentioned in the same breath otherwise? BushI knew he had to replace Justice Marshall with an African-American, but he also needed a conservative. Since being a sexual harasser and dumb as a post were, apparently, not disqualifiers, Clarence Thomas wound up in a position he has no business occupying.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Thurgood Marshall
Was one of the true American heroes of the 20th century. He probably did more to advance the cause of civil rights than anyone...including MLK. He pulled the legal underpinnings out from Jim Crow in Brown v. Board of Education.

What a slap in the face to this great man to replace him with a suck up and sellout like Clarence Thomas. The fact that Clarence Thomas is despised by black people and loved by white conservatives speaks volumes as to his character.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. sexual harrasment charges seem to be a joke
they didn't seem to bother the folks who voted for schwarzengroper either! :grr:
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
72. I believe Anita Hill to this day
I followed the hearings with horrified fascination as this accomplished and dignified woman with everything to lose and nothing to gain came forward to expose her mentor/harasser.

It was a classic case of the one who has the most power over another abusing that power for some twisted gratification. It's not always expressed sexually -- I was once a secretary in the lab of a very powerful professor, one of whose powers was the ability to break a scientific career before it ever got off the ground simply by writing a lukewarm letter of recommendation, or in the case of one desperate man from the former Soviet Union, refusing to write one at all but not telling the guy that he (the eminent one) was sitting on the faxed inquiries from other labs and universities. My boss had a couple of dozen post-docs working for him. I left after three months and found other things to do while I worked on my own graduate degree in a totally unrelated field.

As to Anita Hill, it was instructive to watch those damn senators question her. They kept calling her "Miss Hill" while they called him "Judge Thomas." It got to the point I would snarl at the tv: "That's Professor Hill!" or "Doctor Hill to you!" Whether they were calling her "Miss" because they were deliberately minimizing her accomplishments or because they thought they were being egalitarian by not calling a black woman by her first name only, the effect was the same. We are Oz, the great and powerful; you are nothing.

It was outrageous all around. Thomas was an embarrassingly lackluster candidate for the Supreme Court from the outset, and to watch him pose as an entirely self-made man and then whine that he was enduring a "high-tech lynching" was salt on the wounds. I guess I should point out that I am and have always been a strong supporter of affirmative action programs, because by and large they do what they were intended to do, which is open the doors and let those who are capable enter and do whatever study or work they want, and compete just like everyone else. The fact that the right-wingers put him forward for the Supreme Court was neither a vindication of it nor an indictment of the idea, but a deliberate slap in the face to affirmative action.

Clarence Thomas as a "replacement" for Thurgood Marshall? A midget in the shoes of a giant.

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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. re: Thomas and sexual harassment
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 04:08 PM by Mike Niendorff

I remain convinced that, without the Anita Hill circus, Thomas would never have been confirmed to the Court, and I'd bet my eye teeth that it was a BushI operative that leaked the initial story to the press. They desperately needed to turn the confirmation hearings into a referrendum on something other than his (inadequate) qualifications for the position. An unproveable sexual harassment charge did the trick just fine.


MDN


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Peregrine Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. 100% in agreement with you
I believe it was a republican that leaked the charge to the sole reason to deflect the hearings from Thomas' qualifications.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. Fat Tony.
the sub-human P.O.S.
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Bush loves Jiang Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kennedy?
I like that guy on most issues, and I know plenty of liberals who feel the same way. He made a rotten decision in 2000, but he's as far way from Scalia ideologically and intellectually as Kucinich is from Bush.
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Scalia....
Just another word for NAZI.
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I read that Sandra O'Conner was very shaken by the mail she received
after Bush v Gore. Has she made any effort to wipe her chin, as it were, with subsequent decisions? I have read that she is very concerned about her legacy. I do not follow the Supreme Court with any great regularity.
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Powerlock Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
52. I know for a fact
One of the 5 publicly came out as having regret with the choice made. I don't remember who, however.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sandra Day O'Conner. Without a doubt.
If you follow the decisions, she is ALWAYS the swing vote to watch for. She is the deciding factor in many cases.

You can always count on the conservative votes like Scalia, Renquist and Thomas, so those who consider them the most dangerous are mistaken. It's the vote that actually decides that counts, and that is more often O'Connor
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I don't understand
how a justice who regularly votes to uphold Roe v Wade is more dangerous than a Scalia or others of his ilk. The poll did not ask you to identify your perception of the most significant voter, only the most dangerous voter vis a vis the progressive cause.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Personally, I think
Roe versus Wade was one of the most stupidicious decisions the Court has ever issued, and I'm pro-choice.

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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Without Roe v Wade, exactly what choice would you be "pro"?
n/t
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. First of all,
if Roe versus Wade were overturned, it would not make abortion illegal. The issue would revert back to the states.

If that were the case, I believe it would be to the great benefit of Democrats as many women who currently vote Repulican would then see the issue actually in their face and on the ballot. I cannot imagine more than 2-3 states actually making abortion illegal if they had the right. I know in Texas, the Republican legislature would hate having to make such a vote. They like throwing a bone or two to the religious right like partial birth abortion, or parental notification, but an outright vote to make abortion illegal would doom their party, and they know that.

Now to Roe versus Wade. It is an indefensible (IMO) Supreme Court decision. The Constitutional right to an abortion was supposedly found within a penumbra (shadow) of other rights. The Fourteenth Amendment has been mentioned as has the Ninth.

Well, go read the 14th Amendment. It was written for three purposes. The Civil War had just ended, and the 13th Amendment had just freed the slaves, but many states had signalled that they would not treat their 'freedmen' as citizens.

The 14th Amendment addressed that. It ...

1. Made anyone born in a state (freedmen) automatically a citizen of that state.
2. It cancelled the Confederate war debt.
3. It disqualified many Confederate leaders from holding federal office.

Now I'm supposed to believe that the 14th Amendment also made abortions a Constitutional right somewhere hidden in a penumbra just because I happen to agree with the final result? No thanks. If judges are allowed to discover new rights in penumbras, I may not like it next time when they discover that the 17th Amendment (direct election of senators) has buried within it a penumbra which makes it unconstitutional to hold political meetings within a year of an election.

Roe versus Wade is also idefensible because of the trimester divisions. The state has a compelling interest in the fetus's life in the 7th month but not in the 6th? Why?

Fetal viability? You want to stand on that nonsense that a fetus is not viable in the 6th month but is in the 7th? Utter nonsense.

It was one of the worst decisions the Supreme Court ever made, and will be laughed at for hundreds of years if our form of government survives that long.


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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Amen. I couldn't have said it any better.
!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. LOL!!
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 05:06 PM by 0007
.....and Mac Brown is the dumbest son of a bitch in the state of Texas.
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. Personally, I happen to think . . .
. . . that you are absolutely right.

What makes that decision bizarre right now is that we've reached a point in this country where even many ardent pro-choice supporters have come to admit that it was a terrible decision, but will never support a move to overturn it because "we've gotten used to it for so long."

As if that represents some kind of rational legal thought!
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Wonderful!
And welcome to DU. We have been sadly under represented by individuals who believe that women who become pregnant must (unless they have money) carry a fetus to term. Perhaps its only me who notices that most of those who share your point of view in the House and Senate all share one characteristic. That would be the lack of a uterus. (And yeah, I'm a guy.)
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Why don't you go back and read my post?
I said nothing about whether or not I thought legalized abortion was a good idea -- I simply said that Roe v. Wade was a terrible Supreme Court decision. If that bothers you, then you and I view constitutional law very differently.

The fact that we like the end result of a court decision does not automatically mean that the court decision was correct.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Perhaps you're aware of another SC court decision
which provides women with a right to choose. If not, this is yet another example of straw-man, RW bullshit.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. I believe that abortion should either be
against the law, or permitted by the law.

Laws are written by the legislative branch of government the House, Senate or even state legislatures.

You believe that for something to be legal there must be a Supreme Court ruling mandating it?

Remember the school stuff about the three branches of government and how the Legislative branch writes the laws. For there to be a law does not require a Supreme Court decision. The Supreme Court (IMO) wrongfully took away the legislature's powers and wrote a law which they are not supposed to do.

When you say you can have an abortion in the sixth month, but not the seventh month, that's just writing your own law, and that is not the job of the judiciary. It's just not.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I remember most of the school stuff.
I've been a school teacher for almost 30 years (thank you GI bill), I also can read. A a matter of fact, I have read current case law, and you appear to at least have a passing aquaintance with it .. so feel free to take your opinion, shove it firmly up your ass, and if you don't wish to have an abortion, then don't have one! Abortion is currently permitted by law. If you don't like the law, then pleaws spare us your state's rights bullshit and say so. You'll still be wrong, but at least the rest of us will know where you're coming from.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. Very well reasoned indeed
Edited on Sun Jan-04-04 12:46 AM by Yupster
I'd guess you are a professor of logic.

On edit - Honestly 2dumb - I've gone back and read your posts responding to mine and the other poster's points, and you don't seem to understand them.

When I said I thought Roe versus Wade was wrongly reasoned, you called me a pro-lifer. Then you got crude and started cursing. When the other poster agreed that the Roe decision was wrong you called him a pro-lifer too. I've been posting on abortion for 2-3 years now, but I guess I can explain them again. I am pro-choice, but believe there should be reasonable restrictions on abortion which should be worked out by the voters and their elected representatives through the political process. I don't believe there is a Constitutional Right to an abortion. I believe abortion should be legal by the laws duly passed by congress and state legislatures.

You don't seem to be able to grasp that a peron can be glad with a result and still be critical of the process which got there. Any criticism of the process seems to make the person an enemy. Then you even went to cursing.

You're not really a teacher are you? Please say you're not.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Yeah, I really am. 30 years now.
You don't have any daughters, do you? Please say you don't.
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #50
63. Actually, there were two of them . . .
Griswold v. The State of Connecticut and Doe v. Bolton.

The judicial "logic" in those two cases was a lot of crap, too.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. 2Dumb
You are misunderstanding my point and the other poster's.

If the Supreme Court makes an idiotic decision that ends with a result I agree with, I can still call it an idiotic decision.

Roe versus Wade was an idiotic Supreme Court decision in my humble opinion.

If the Jets are down by 2 on the 10 yard line with three seconds left, and instead of kicking a field goal, run up the middle and score a touchdown, I can still call it an idiotic decision to run the ball even though I'm glad the Jets won.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. I don't buy your football analogy, because it's flawed:
If a football play accomplishes the desired result, calling it an idiotic decision/effort is ridiculous. If they had chosen what you would have called "correct" and then failed to score, I can't imagine you praising it as being the best choice. But then I don't know you, so it could be that you might.

Not to imply, however, that the end justifies the means, necessarily (it might in some cases, things aren't always binary.)

I guess I'll have to re-read the thread, because I haven't so far found any rationale from you explaining exactly -why- you think R v. W was an idiotic decision.
:eyes:


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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. Post 54
Edited on Sun Jan-04-04 12:25 AM by Yupster
How about a poker analogy then.

The only way you can win is by pulling an inside straight with your last card. That's about a 1 of 13 odds. You bet all your chips, and by gosh, if the right card doesn't come up. You win.

I can still say it was stupid for you to bet all on an inside straight, even though I'm glad you won.

It's just a try. No analogy is direct of course. It was just trying to make the point that I can be happy about a result and still disagree with how it was arrived at.

On edit -- football announcers will often opine whether a team should go for it or punt, and then if it fails say that , "well it was still the right call to make." It happens all the time.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. NO, the original question was simply
"Who is the most dangerous Supreme Court Justice?"

And I answered accordingly.

The original question did NOT say ANYTHING about Roe v Wade or any of the other stuff you are now introducing in your previous post.

I stand by my response, and I'm NOT really interested in whether you approve of it or not, or understand it.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. And I will reiterate ...
I fail to see how a vote which at times is cast in favor of progressive issues is more dangerous than a vote which unfailingly is cast in order to abrogate well-established Constitutional rights. My approval and/or understanding aren't really an issue here, but since you're NOT!!! interested; I'll just wish you a Happy New Year.
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. Rehnquist

A vile, conniving little man with the intellect of a skilled political operative and the ethics of a used car salesman.


MDN


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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I stumbled across his grave marker in Arlington Cemetery...
I was visiting my uncle's grave there and ran across his grave marker not far from my uncle's grave. His wife is dead and the marker is there with his name on it as well, except for the dates.

Now I know where to go to spit on his grave after he's dead.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. As a public service
could you please post the section in which Rhenquist will eventually be planted. I'm only a few miles from ANC and I sometimes feel the need to take a piss.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
27. Scalia is delusional
and deeply ugly, inside and out. He has no business being a judge, let alone on the Supreme Court.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. "Innocence is no bar to upholding a conviction"
Or some other such nonsense that Scalia wrote. The man is a religious extremist who not only would overturn Roe v. Wade, but also the Griswold decision on contraception. Never saw an environmental plaintiff who had standing to sue either.

I saw a roundtable discussion he was a part of wherein the moderator asked the panel whether they could defend a man accused of raping a nun. Scalia was basically outraged that this man should even get a defense- he only shut up after the ACLU atty on the panel reminded him that in our country, one is innocent until proven guilty. He still didn't look happy and acted like he wanted to fry the guy just for being accused of such a crime.

And this man is fit to serve as a judge in any circuit court, let alone on the highest court in the land? Pfft.


BTW- I do understand the concerns with O'Connor, but nothing she has done can match the hate-filled, unconstitutional, corporatist, and anti-jury decisions of Scalia. Not even the 2000 decision.
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put out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
32. Day O'Connor, did she say, during the 2000 selections,
That she hoped Gore would not be elected because she wanted to retire, and would only do it during a Republican administration? Of course, then, having a Republican appoint her replacement. It made me sick. I think this was reported as being overheard while she was at a party during the debacle that was our last election. Please correct me if I'm misinformed. If I'm not, then she is dangerous.
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. One of them said it. Might have been her.
But the one who said it, should absolutely be IMPEACHED!!! If that is not improper behavior, someone please tell me what would be!!!!!!

The are SUPPOSED to be impartial, for crying out loud!!!!!
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. She denied the incident. You are right though, some reporter did
write about being at the party and learning about what she had said.
I believe the original report, not the denial.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. No doubt about it. If ya didn't vote for Scalia ya ain't paying attention
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YellowDawgDemocrat Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Scalia......Scalia.....Scalia......Can I vote more than once?
I've wondered to myself why Scalia recused himself from the Pledge issue. I believe he did so the "under God" will be held unconstitutional and hit the electorate right around election time.

The issue isn't whether or not the Pledge is constitutional, strictly from a political standpoint anyway, it's how much of a motivating factor this could be for the right wingers.

If the Court rules 4-4, as I predict it will, and, if it does so at an opportune time, we will take the hit. The most recent poll i've seen with regard to this issue puts it about 80% in favor of the "under God" remaining.

No, I don't see black helicopters, but Scalia is enough of an activist to participate in timely rulings that help his side.
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Scalia recused himself from that case . . .
. . . because he no alternative but to do so. He had spoken and written at length about the issue previously, so he would not have been impartial in rendering a decision.
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Peregrine Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
66. Why did Scalia not have an alternative but to recuse himself?
If he didn't, does that give anybody the right to appeal? Appeal to whom? The only thing that could happen to him if he didn't recuse himself is to be impeached, and just figure the odds of that happening. He didn't have to. The possible reasons he did it include:

1. Judicial ethics required it (haven't stopped laughing over this one)
2. As stated earlier, to create a campaign issue that will hurt the Democrats.
3. He already knows he has the votes (at least 5 to 3).

Remember this is a guy who is a member of Opus Dei, and has spoke several times to Catholic and Fundamentalist groups about the folly of church-state jurisprudence. But he still sits on church-state cases.
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. The difference in this case, if I remember correctly . . .
. . . is that he had previously written and/or spoken about this specific case when it was being appealed at a lower court level.

What I find most interesting about this topic is that the two names that have come up most frequently on this thread -- Scalia and Thomas -- are the only two justices I can remember in the last ten years who have ever recused themselves from cases. I may be wrong about this, but I don't seem to remember it happening with anyone else.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. John Paul Stevens
because if he died, the liberal wing of the court would be in trouble... he is fairly old now, and if something were to happen to him, Bush would never nominate a moderate.

This would definitely change the balance of power in the court.
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
60. his wife..
has been begging him to retire for a while, but he just keeps hanging on. The man is a saint for liberals everywhere. May god be with him..
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Military Brat Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. Scalia is perfect casting for a senior partner in the film "The Firm"
No ethics. Is that what it takes to be appointed by a Repub to the so-called Highest Court in the Land?

Scalia is demented by an overdose of power.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. Scalia by FAR
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 05:27 PM by Brian_Expat
He often announces his votes to crowds of far-right supporters before the case is even brought before him! His ideology is voting for what he wants and then twisting the legal interpretation to his point of view -- all the while passing himself off as a "literal constructionist" who literally reads the constitution and decides based on that alone, which is pure bullshit.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
45. Our court system itself is scary...
I think that instead of having the president filling the vacancies on the court, I think the justices themselves should do it with senate confirmation.
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Peregrine Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
48. Scalia is the next chief justice
if bush wins in 2004. With that he will be able to control the debates in the back room and he will probably get a clone to replace him.

This is a man who believes --
- that the 2nd amendment gives every person the right to carry weapons that the typical infantryman carries (when asked if that included handgrenades, he said yes).
- innocence is irrelevant. If a person is convicted, but later new evidence appears showing his innocence, as long as there was no presecutorial misconduct, then the conviction can stand.
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I'm sure there are some "Dems" who would vote to confirm him.
Anyone want to list them?? Zell's retiring, or he certainly would. Who else???
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Powerlock Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
53. Any of those that are liberal
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 08:23 PM by Powerlock
And before anyone accuses me of being a freeper let me explain why. And I'm surprised all but one person has brought this up.

When I look at the supreme court for dangers I only consider 3 things.

1. Who is currently on the SCOTUS.

2. Rather or not they are liberal or conservative.

3. Who is the current president.

With bush in office it does not matter if ANY conservative justice retires. Regardless another one will just be installed. It won't change the balance of power.

BUT - with bush is office if ANY liberal justice retires (all it will take is one) we are screwed beyond belief. Right now the courts are all we have left. We've lost the executve. Congress is a joke. We may be able to filibuster in the senate, but a lot of good that has done us. At least we still have enough judges in enough places to hold down the bush agenda. I shudder to think what would happen if they were to gain the courts, and we were to loose the filibuster in the senate. That's really ALL we have left in the federal government. In the states the majority of the governerships and legislatures are repub as well. There would be absolutely nothing stopping them.

Basically what it comes down to is this - the liberal justices have enormous power right now when it comes to the ultimate direction this nation may take. Only one of them has to resign. If we loose the SCOTUS we could very well suffer defeat after defeat after defeat for LONG after bush is gone. It would not be pretty.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #53
74. Quite
We lost the SCOTUS as being a fair and impartial group of people on 12 December 2000.

I don't expect things to get any better.

'nuff said.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
57. Right now, the most dangerous justice is Stevens, believe it or not...
Because if he dies before the Idiot Son is extracted from the White House, the Court's fucked :scared:
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
64. the ones waiting till Bush wins 2004 and more senate seats
so they can retire knowing that it will be safe to do.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
65. Why Thomas
Because he's much younger than Scalia (54 vs 67), and when Scalia retires, "Slappy" will be the primary right-wing judicial demogogue.

The Federalist Society will thereby extend its reign by a decade or more.

--bkl
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JDPhD Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
70. For those who care, here is why Roe v. Wade is wrong.....
Edited on Sun Jan-04-04 02:06 AM by JDPhD
First a disclaimer. Please, no one try to tombstone me. Yes, I know this is one of my first posts, but I am not a Freeper plant. I am a life long Democrat who happens to believe that dishonest law should not be used to achieve social ends that cannot be reached through popular politics. That's all. If we want abortion legal, we should make our arguments in the legislatures, not in the courts.

Now, my post: A couple of the subthreads here have become focused on whether Roe v. Wade was a legitimate decision. I must say that I find most of the arguments to be, to put it kindly, ... uninformed. You are not Con Law experts. I am.

What follows is a document that I once supplied to a group of students who I was a TA for. It is derived from an earlier document, but that is explained in the text.

The document explains why Griswold v. Connecticut (the decision that provided the precedent to justify Roe v. Wade) was incorrect. If Griswold was wrong, so is Roe. So, although I do not argue directly against Roe, the logic is still painfully relevant.

If any of you actually read the whole thing to find out the truth behind the fictional "right to privacy", please let me know. But don't try to claim I am wrong unless you have informed counter-arguments to make. I won't wait around now, but I will check back tomorrow.

The document I supplied to the students begins here:

In the Introduction to America Law lecture on Tuesday, November 26th, Professor Friedman referred to the questionable reasoning underlying the United States Supreme Court’s decision in Griswold v. Connecticut (and, by implication, the reasoning in Roe v. Wade, which is built upon Griswold). But Professor Friedman did not go on to explain what is wrong with the reasoning underlying these cases. The following document may shed some light on the constitutional difficulties found in these two cases – and particularly on the “constitutional right” of “privacy” that they claim exists. Those of you who find the topic interesting (or who simply have questions about why Friedman, a self describe "knee jerk liberal", might question the legal soundness of these decisions) may want to take a few minutes to read this paper – but you certainly are not required to do so. It is my own “dissent” to the Griswold opinion (written as though I had been on the Supreme Court at the time the decision was rendered). I wrote it as part of a class assignment for a law course I once had. It was not intended to be a well-crafted document and no detailed research was required. The assignment essentially asked for a thoughtful gut-reaction, but nothing more. As a result, this dissent needs a great deal more research, documentation, rewriting, and editing, before I would consider it a sufficient response to Griswold. Nonetheless, it is a good indication of what arguments I think are most decisive in the case, and, more importantly, it brings up aspects of the “privacy” debate which were not aired in Professor Friedman’s lectures.

Remember, the Griswold case involved a Connecticut law which prohibited the selling of birth control devices. The law, in its long history, had only resulted in one prosecution. The reason the law existed, though not enforced, was so it could be used in conjunction with another statute which prohibited the advertising of illegal services. Connecticut thus prevented the overt marketing of birth control devices, but not their quiet distribution, sale, and use. The Griswold case grew out of an intentional act of “civil disobedience,” in which Planned Parenthood Corporation opened a very public birth control clinic in an attempt to force enforcement of the birth control law and eventually produce a Supreme Court challenge to Connecticut’s statute. Their strategy worked, two staffers at the clinic (Griswold and Buxton) were arrested, and the Griswold case resulted. The Supreme Court majority in Griswold held that there was a heretofore unrecognized “constitutional right” to “privacy” which was infringed upon by the Connecticut statute. But the Court very carefully, at least in the Griswold case, limited that right to privacy within the “marital bedroom.” This was because of the historical, traditional, “special” position of marriage and family as the fundamental unit of society – and thus the special deference that should be given to parents’ choices to become parents. Those members of the Court who voted to strike down the Connecticut statute explicitly claimed that the zone of privacy which they had created would not be stretched to cover non-marital sexual activities. But, in fact, it was almost immediately thereafter extended to encompass non-marital sexual relations, and eventually to cover even elective abortions.

Justice XXXXXXXX, dissenting:

Though I am tempted to reverse the conviction in question in this case, I am convinced that it is not appropriate to do so. Even if I were willing to reverse the conviction, I would not do so for the reasons stated by this Court, nor would I strike down Connecticut’s law in the process. I shall outline my reasons:

1. My colleagues on this Court are too easily taken by the constitutional charade presented in this case. It is one of our most deeply established precepts that we do not render advisory opinions, but only settle cases that present actual controversies. Muskrat v. United States, 219 U.S. 346 (1911). As Justice Brandeis pointed out: “The Court will not pass upon the constitutionality of legislation in a friendly, non-adversary, proceeding, declining because to decide such questions ‘is legitimate only in the last resort, and as a necessity in the determination of real, earnest and vital controversy between individuals. It never was the thought that, by means of a friendly suit, a party beaten in the legislature could transfer to the courts an inquiry as to the constitutionality of the legislative act.’” Ashwander v. Tennessee Valley Authority, 297 U.S. 288, 346, quoting Chicago & Grand Trunk Ry. v. Wellman, 143 U.S. 339, 345 (emphasis added). Under this standard, we have no real controversy to decide in this case.
Just four years ago, the same conspiracy of social reformers that now pushes this case before us – led by a group of Yale law professors and the Planned Parenthood corporation – attempted to have the same Connecticut statute struck down. But in Poe v. Ullman, 367 U.S. 497 (1961), we ruled that no real controversy existed, because the complaining parties had not actually been prosecuted, but merely “feared” prosecution under an act that had not been enforced in over 20 years. At the time we wrote: “During the more than three-quarters of a century since its enactment, a prosecution for its violation seems never to have been initiated, save in State v. Nelson, … 11 A. 2d 856 (1940).... Neither counsel nor our own researches have discovered any other attempt to enforce the prohibition of distribution or use of contraceptive devices by criminal process.” Poe v. Ullman, 367 U.S. 497, 501-02 (1961). The conspirators then set about manufacturing an actual arrest and prosecution, with the aid of compliant governmental officials. The resultant fabricated-case is now before us. In such a contrived situation, the supposedly injured parties cannot be said to have suffered any real injury – their $100 fine was even paid for them by the Planned Parenthood company. Any inconveniences that the supposedly offended parties have sustained have been of their own creation, and are but the price of admission that they gladly paid for their “day in court.”
It is beneath the dignity of this Court to now allow ourselves to be manipulated by such a cabal of deceivers. Certiorari was improvidently granted in this case, and the issues it raises should be left to the wisdom of the legislature and courts of the state of Connecticut. The faculty of Yale Law School and the staff of Planned Parenthood should look to the Connecticut state legislature as the proper forum for their pursuit of social reform, rather than continuing their effort to make a judicial end-run around the people’s branch.

2. But, even if I assume, for the sake of argument, that a real controversy exists in this case, I must still decline to rule for the prosecuted parties. Though the Court in this case bases its opinion on the violation of a newly discovered “right to privacy” – which had somehow remained hidden, lurking in the shadows of the Constitution, for nearly two-hundred years – I do not believe that any such “right” exists.
During America’s revolutionary period, the states adopted new charters of rights and constitutions. These documents were designed to invest the state governments with sovereign authority derived directly from the people, to replace authority that was lost with severance from the English Crown. These grants of power were generally considered to be comprehensive, except as limited by the “inalienable rights of man,” often listed in accompanying bills of rights. This view of state power was so commonly assumed at the time of the Founding, that during the New York ratifying convention, Alexander Hamilton – no friend of the states – made this simple allusion to the pervasive reach of the police power, and its relationship to federally delegated powers: There is an "obvious and important principle in confederated governments, that whatever is not expressly given to the federal head is reserved to the members. The truth of this principle must strike every intelligent mind. In the first formation of government, by the association of individuals, every power of the community is delegated, because the government is to extend to every possible object; nothing is reserved but the unalienable rights of mankind, but, when a number of these societies unite for certain purposes, the rule is different, and from the plainest reason – they have already delegated their sovereignty and their powers to their several governments; and these cannot be recalled, and given to another, without an express act” (Jonathan Elliot, ed., Debates in the Several Conventions, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, as Recommended by the General Convention at Philadelphia in 1787, 2d ed., vol. 2 (Washington, DC: Jonathan Elliot, 1836), 362-63 (emphasis added)).
This Court has repeatedly recognized the great potential reach of state authority in the exercise of the police power. As examples: In one case we acknowledged, while upholding a local ordinance regulating certain business practices, the existence of “the power of the State, sometimes termed the police power, to prescribe regulations to promote the health, peace, morals, education, and good order of the people, and to legislate so as to increase the industries of the State, develop its resources, and add to its wealth an prosperity.” Barbier v. Connolly, 113 U.S. 27, 31 (1885). In another we admitted, even while striking down a state law for being incompatible with the federal constitution, that “There are, however, certain powers, existing in the sovereignty of each State in the Union, somewhat vaguely termed police powers.... Those powers, broadly stated and without, at present, any attempt at a more specific limitation, relate to the safety, health, morals and general welfare of the public. Both property and liberty are held on such reasonable conditions as may be imposed by the governing power of the State in the exercise of those powers....” Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 53 (1905). And in a third case, while upholding the practice of forced immunizations, we declared that “The authority of the state to enact this statute is to be referred to what is commonly called the police power, – a power which the state did not surrender when becoming a member of the Union under the Constitution.... This court has ... recognized the authority of a state to enact ... all laws that relate to matters completely within its territory and which do not by their necessary operation affect the people of other states.” Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 24-25 (1905).
The virtually unlimited scope of the police power has allowed states to historically outlaw a multitude of private “sexually-related” practices, including adultery, fornication, sodomy, homosexuality, sadism, bestiality, contraception, and abortion. At this time, laws in at least 29 states bar the dissemination of contraceptives or contraceptive information. If the private right of contraception is among the “unalienable rights of mankind” that Hamilton mentioned, then it was surely reserved outside the bounds of state power at the time that the state governments were chartered – and every state legislature and court in American history that has either created or enforced laws regulating sexual conduct have been in grave error. But, I find it hard to believe that the American people did not long ago notice such a gross infringement on their retained rights. It is far more likely that such a right is not unalienable, and was not retained by the people, and in fact was given over to the keeping of the state legislatures. In fact, a common recognition that the states had in fact been granted authority to regulate sexual relations is the best explanation of why the efforts of the states to do so have not been brought into question until recent years. If the people of Connecticut want this right given back to them – so they can regulate their own sexual conduct – they are welcome to initiate appropriate constitutional change in their state, but we should not (and legitimately cannot) do it for them. It is not the place of this Court to redo the delegation of powers in Connecticut by judicial fiat – that is a job for the People of Connecticut.

3. But, even if I assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a legal controversy in this case, and that an inalienable right to privacy – particularly with regard to the distribution of contraceptives – does exist, I still cannot rule for the appellants. For, even if such a right exists, it was not infringed in this case in any way for which a remedy lies in the federal courts.
In this case the Court has ruled that Connecticut is barred by the Due Process Clause of Fourteenth Amendment from infringing on the supposed right of privacy. The logic of the argument is this: The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits states from depriving "any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” (U.S. Const., amend. XIV, sec. 1); the right to privacy is a liberty protected by this clause; and thus, even if the right to sexual privacy was once rightly regulated by Connecticut through its exercise of its police power (as I have argued above), the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment removed this ability from the state. The enforcement of the Connecticut statute thus is an unconstitutional exercise of a power that the Fourteenth Amendment removed from state control. Such a constitutional claim must then be enforced by this Court, by striking down the offending law.
Though on the surface this may seem a compelling argument, it has a fatal flaw: It is quite doubtful that privacy is a liberty that the Fourteenth Amendment removed from state control.
We have previously claimed that the Constitution’s guarantee of due process protects liberties that are “so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental” (Snyder v. Com. Of Massachusetts, 291 U.S. 97, 105 (1934)), or that are “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty” (Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937)). If the right to sexual privacy (even within marriage) fits these definitions, then every government in America – which means all state governments and the national government (if we consider its regulation of military personnel) – which has historically regulated sexual activities (even within the bonds of marriage) has shown itself to be completely ignorant of what the traditions of its people hold as fundamental, and to be devoid of “ordered liberty.” This is a patently absurd claim. Not only is it absurd to think that an item so essential to ordered liberty could have been systematically overlooked for so long by the people and their representatives in government, but it is also internally contradictory to claim that a type of regulation that has been leveled throughout American history by all levels of government is somehow out of step with the “traditions ... of our people.” Clearly, the “right” being claimed here has not been historically recognized and is not implicit in the concept of liberty. Thus, by this Court’s own binding reasoning, it was not protected from state regulation by the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. We cannot now graft a protection of “privacy” into that amendment by our judicial WILL (simply to satisfy our own biased perceptions of what sort of laws the states should be allowed to enact). This Court should not presume to rewrite constitutional passages to service its own whims of what is right or wrong. The awesome power of amending the Constitution is reserved by Article V of that document to a combination of two-thirds of the members of Congress and three-fourths of the states (who truly represent the overwhelming will of the people), NOT to five elitist intellectuals in black robes who represent only their own ideological prejudices (which were forged in realms far removed from the experiences of common citizens).

4. But, even if I assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a legal controversy in this case, that a right to privacy does exist, and that it is protected against state infringement by adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, this does not mean that the prosecution being challenged in this case did in fact violate the Due Process Clause.
Too often do we forget, when reflecting on the Due Process Clause, that it contains more than a guarantee of “life, liberty, or property.” It also spells out the conditions under which a state MAY deprive a person of those things. The state may impose such a deprivation if it does so through “due process of law”! In other words, if fair, consistent PROCEDURES are used, a state MAY deprive a person of liberty – even of the liberty to distribute contraceptives. Did Connecticut observe the standard procedures of due process – such as making a proper arrest, staging an appropriate arraignment, conducting a fair trial, etc. – in prosecuting this case? Apparently Connecticut DID fulfill what is required by due process, since Griswold and Buxton, the two members of the birth control clinic staff who were arrested and fined, do not claim that there were any procedural violations.
What then can possibly be the foundation for the claim that the Appellants were not given “due process?” It is in fact the discredited child of Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45 (1905) – the bizarre doctrine of “substantive due process” – upon which their claim (and this Court’s decision) must rely. This is true despite Justice Douglas’s (who wrote the majority opinion in Griswold) disingenuous claim, in the Court’s opinion, that the “vertones of some arguments suggest that Lochner ... should be our guide. But we decline that invitation....” In fact, despite claiming that there was a violation of due process, Justice Douglas does nothing to show that any procedural requirement was not correctly fulfilled in the prosecution here in question. Far from declining the invitation, Justice Douglas, like a gentleman visiting a whorehouse, has shamefully embraced “substantive due process,” while vainly hoping that his penumbral cloak will prevent him from being recognized. I am sorry, but I can see through the disguise. It was in Justice Douglas’s opinion that we find the infamous reasoning that a “right to privacy” can be found in the “emanations” and “penumbras” of the Bill of Rights.
Substantive due process is a self contradictory concept. Though the simple meaning of “due process” obviously refers to process or procedure, substantive due process is not concerned about such things. Instead it is concerned with substantive outcomes, regardless of process. When courts invoke substantive due process, they do so to strike down a law not because there was anything wrong with the process of creating it or enforcing it, but because the substance of the law is considered inherently unreasonable. In effect, the court says to the other branches of government or to the offending state, “We don't care whether you followed due process or not – we don't like the substance of this law, so we strike it down!” Such an approach does not in any way enforce due PROCESS, and thus it is not an exercise in judgment or interpretation, but is simply a flexing of political will. The flexing of such power is rightly the providence of the legislatures, not of the courts – not even this Court.
The first use of substantive due process came in the dreadful case of Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857). This case implicated the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment – which restricts the federal government in the same way that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment restricts the states. Dred Scott was a slave who was transported by his owner into the free territory of Minnesota. (Since Minnesota was just a territory and not a state, it was administered by the national government, and thus the Fifth Amendment’s Due Process Clause was applicable.) Dred Scott believed that since he had been in a territory where slavery was illegal, that he should then be considered free, and he sued for his freedom. The case eventually came before this Court, with Dred Scott's owner arguing that his property could not be taken from him, despite Congress’s determination that slavery would not exist in Minnesota.
It appeared, in this case, that the requirements of due process had been fully enforced. At each stage through which the case proceeded, first in the state courts of Missouri, and then in the federal courts, correct procedures had been followed. But this was not good enough for Chief Justice Taney, who wrote the opinion of the Court. He did not like the substantive possibility that the Missouri Compromise (which created the free territory of Minnesota) might be used to free slaves, regardless of how fair the procedures. So he wrote an opinion striking down the Compromise, on the premise that “an act of Congress which deprives a citizen of the United States of his liberty or property, merely because he came himself or brought his property into a particular Territory of the United States ... could hardly be dignified with the name of due process of law.” Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 450 (1857). The result was that Minnesota was not really a free territory after all, and Dred Scott could not possibly be a free man. This was the first case of a Due PROCESS clause being oxymoronically interpreted as a restriction on substance rather than on process. The Dred Scott decision was eventually rendered inconsequential by passage of the Thirteenth Amendment which ended slavery in America.
The next occasion on which the idea of substantive due process raised its ugly head in these hallowed chambers was when this Court decided Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45 (1905). The Lochner case involved New York legislation which regulated maximum working hours for bakery workers. One employer sued, claiming that he had a right to contract with his employees to work as many hours as they saw fit. He argued, in striking similarity to what the Court argues in the case now before us, that his right to contract (like the supposed right to privacy) was inherent in the concept of “liberty” found in the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause. Again, as in Dred Scott, it nonetheless appeared that even if a right to contract did exist, all procedures demanded by “due process” had been properly observed in depriving Lochner of it. But, again, the satisfaction of “procedural due process” (an admittedly redundant term) was not good enough for this Court, and New York’s regulation was struck down on substantive grounds. For a second time, a Due Process Clause of the Constitution was bizarrely interpreted as a restriction on substance rather than on process.
Eventually the Lochner decision was overturned by this Court and its reasoning discredited. Nebbia v. New York, 291 U.S. 502 (1934). To “Lochnerize” has since even become a pejorative term meaning that a court has acted lawlessly to enforce its preferences without concern for what the Constitution actually demands. Both Dred Scott and Lochner are among the most disreputable decisions ever handed down by this Court. It is this obscene history that this Court now chooses to emulate. I will not be a party to such lawless, results-oriented decision-making. It is not the place of this or any court to dictate what is “good” public policy. To do so is not to judge but is to legislate. It amazes me, that in the “opinion of the Court” that Justice Douglas has the gall to claim that “We do not sit as a super-legislature to determine the wisdom, need, and propriety of laws that touch ... social conditions.” That is exactly what the Court has presumed to do in its majority opinion in this case.

5. But, even if I assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a legal controversy in this case, that a right to privacy does exist, that the right to privacy is protected against state infringement by adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, and that the doctrine of substantive due process is a legitimate way of protecting it, I still cannot rule for the Appellants.
The supposed right that is being protected in this case is a right to privacy – in particular a right to sexual privacy within marriage. But the behavior for which the Appellants were prosecuted did not involve sex within a marriage relationship. Instead, it involved a commercial relationship between strangers. Griswold and Buxton are birth-control counselors and suppliers who were prosecuted for supplying information and birth control devices for a fee – they were not a married couple who were making use of such devices when arrested. How the public sale of products and services can be seriously considered by this Court to be a private act is beyond my ability to understand. It is the very fact that Griswold’s and Buxton’s distribution of birth control devices was so brazenly public that led to their arrests. The marketing of products out of a store front is obviously a public act, but even if it were not, it certainly is not a part of the intimate marriage relationship that the Court claims to be protecting in its decision today. If a right to privacy within the “marital bedroom” does exist, these Appellants certainly cannot find shelter within it. Perhaps the law professors at Yale, the officials of Planned Parenthood, and the other members of their radical reformist gang, should try to arrange for a copulating couple to be arrested in their bedroom (rather than merchants being arrested at their very public place of business) – then I might be tempted to believe that “privacy” is actually at issue.

6. But, even if I assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a legal controversy in this case, that a right to privacy does exist, that it is protected against state infringement by adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, that the doctrine of substantive due process is a legitimate way to protect privacy, and that the act in question in this case is a private one (which, taken all together, would require a truly amazing abandonment of logic and common sense), I still would not be willing to rule for Appellants.
If this Court chooses to now sit as a super-legislature to decide what is wise public policy for the state of Connecticut – which is what it does in this case – then it should at least decide with wisdom. To do so, it must consider the ultimate consequences of its ruling. Under such consideration, ruling for Griswold and Buxton is clearly unacceptable.
The most fundamental unit of American society is the family – consisting of a mother, father, and children, responsibly bound to each other by commitment and law. It is within such a family that societal values of accountability, responsibility, and commitment are best taught. It is good public policy to encourage such families. But the opportunities to devalue and even destroy such families, which are created by this Court’s ruling in this case, are legion. The principles being espoused in this case will not and cannot be limited to private sexual relations within the bounds of marriage. In the future, I predict, this case will be used as a precedent to justify the “right” to everything from elective abortions to homosexual orgies to pedophilia. I have little doubt that as subsequent judicial decrees force society to embrace such behaviors, that society will become increasingly consumed by its own hedonism – with each rising generation feeling more entitled to indulge their every lust, and less concerned about personal accountability, responsibility, and commitment. If the judicial power – expressed through substantive due process – is to be used for the good of society, then it surely must be used to uphold Connecticut’s law, rather than to strike it down. To do otherwise is to rule unwisely.
Now, in making this argument, I may be labeled an unenlightened, fascist bigot. But then I must ask why the Court’s use of its power to liberate the oppressed birth control pushers of Connecticut is acceptable, while my proposed use of that power to protect the traditional family is not? An honest answer would reveal that both of these positions are dependent on subjective morality. If this is the case, then why should the nine black-robed “philosopher kings” of the United States Supreme Court decide what is morally acceptable in Connecticut, rather than the legislature of Connecticut or the People of Connecticut? Is it because we judges are smarter and wiser than the people and their representatives? Or is it simply because we are more sympathetic to the political agenda being pushed by radical interest groups that increasingly seek to use us as a tool to reach their desired social ends?
I am personally not wise enough to make policy choices in the place of the congresses that the people choose – and I know my esteemed colleagues are not wise enough either. But even if I was wise enough, I would refuse to pervert my solemn duty to uphold the Constitution into a license to remake America into my moral utopia. I am, after all, a judge, not a king.

7. Finally, as I wrote at the opening, I was tempted to rule for Griswold and Buxton. But my temptation did not come from any of the arguments expressed above. Rather I would look to a different clause of the Fourteenth Amendment – the Equal Protection Clause. This clause requires that states not “deny any person ... the equal protection of the laws” (U.S. Const., amend. XIV, sec. 1). It seems to me that an argument could be made that any law that is not enforced uniformly does not afford “equal” protection. Since the Connecticut statute in question in this case has been applied only twice in more than seventy-five years, it would seem susceptible to such an equal protection challenge. But, since such a challenge was not raised by counsel for the Appellants, nor were all the arguments for and against it fleshed-out before this Court, I cannot yet reach a conclusion on this point.
But, even if I became convinced that the prosecution challenged in this case did in fact violate the Equal Protection Clause, I would not strike down the statute involved. Instead, I would simply throw out the convictions of Griswold and Buxton and give Connecticut a choice: Either enforce the law as comprehensively as the practicalities of administration will allow, or do not enforce it at all.

Conclusion:
I cannot rule for Griswold and Buxton because there is no legitimate controversy at stake, but only a cynically staged fiction. I will not be a pawn in their pursuit of political change. Even if there is a legal controversy, it is within the bounds of Connecticut’s police power to create and enforce the law in question. Also, there is no constitutionally protected right to privacy that is being infringed by Connecticut’s actions – such a right simply is not a part of those historically recognized fundamental rights that were reserved from the powers of the states.
It is an illegitimate use of this Court’s power to evade these truths through the use of the discredited doctrine of substantive due process. But even if one accepts the idea of substantively protecting privacy through this Court, the action in question in this case was not a private one. And, if this Court is going into the business of social engineering, the policy choice it is making in this case is a fundamentally bad one.
Finally, this Court has no business substituting its moral designs for those of the people of Connecticut and their legislators. If the law in question is to be struck down, it should be done through the electoral and legislative processes of the state of Connecticut. It is fundamentally improper for interest groups to make use of ideologically sympathetic judges to gain what they are unable to achieve through democratic means.

For any and all of these reasons, I must respectfully dissent.
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uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Huh?
"In the future, I predict, this case will be used as a precedent to justify the “right” to everything from elective abortions to homosexual orgies to pedophilia. I have little doubt that as subsequent judicial decrees force society to embrace such behaviors, that society will become increasingly consumed by its own hedonism – with each rising generation feeling more entitled to indulge their every lust, and less concerned about personal accountability, responsibility, and commitment. If the judicial power – expressed through substantive due process – is to be used for the good of society, then it surely must be used to uphold Connecticut’s law, rather than to strike it down. To do otherwise is to rule unwisely."

I remember this rw talking point pouring out of so many wingers recently, that I think it might be tattooed on Bush's ass.

I suppose your idea of "morals" and "traditional family roles" and "equal protection" do not extend to those who have an alternative lifestyle, or may be (gasp) homosexual?

"Finally, this Court has no business substituting its moral designs for those of the people of Connecticut and their legislators. If the law in question is to be struck down, it should be done through the electoral and legislative processes of the state of Connecticut. It is fundamentally improper for interest groups to make use of ideologically sympathetic judges to gain what they are unable to achieve through democratic means."

Really?


For someone stating that the court should not be a moral arbiter, you spend a lot of time deciding what the essential elements of American society are and what can be construed as legitimate privacy as outlined in the Constitution.


"If the right to sexual privacy (even within marriage) fits these definitions, then every government in America – which means all state governments and the national government (if we consider its regulation of military personnel) – which has historically regulated sexual activities (even within the bonds of marriage) has shown itself to be completely ignorant of what the traditions of its people hold as fundamental, and to be devoid of “ordered liberty.” This is a patently absurd claim. Not only is it absurd to think that an item so essential to ordered liberty could have been systematically overlooked for so long by the people and their representatives in government, but it is also internally contradictory to claim that a type of regulation that has been leveled throughout American history by all levels of government is somehow out of step with the “traditions ... of our people.”

I know. It's amazing that bible thumpers have held sway over the issue of sexual privacy for over 200 years, but it's a sad fact. The "traditions of our people" are irrelevant. If these traditions have been codified in direct opposition to essential liberty, they are extremely dangerous and should be dealt with.
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. I think you missed the whole point of that post . . .
The issue isn't whether "traditions of our people" should be upheld in U.S. law. The issue is whether we are well-served by having the U.S. Supreme Court stand in as the sole arbiter of what exactly constitutes "freedom" and "liberty" in this country.

It is clear that a "right to privacy" is not written into the U.S. Constitution in any way. So there are basically three ways to deal with it:

1. Write it into the Constitution, through the amendment process.

2. Write it into the constitutions of individual states.

3. Legislate it on a state level.

The first would certainly be the most difficult, but it also would have been the most airtight method. The last would have been the easiest (and in fact had been started throughout the 1960s).

Relying on the U.S. Supreme Court to "discover" this right in the U.S. Constitution was a lazy, half-assed way of doing it. And we are paying the price for that laziness right now -- because the same U.S. Supreme Court that discovers a right in the Constitution can always decide later that it wasn't such a good idea in the first place. And thus we find oursleves in a position where we must fight these monumental battles over potential Supreme Court nominees.

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
73. If they're republican, then they are. PERIOD.
Selection 2000 proves it as they voted along party lines.

Gore should have won because of the popular vote and they should have investigated Jeb and Kathleen. But didn't.

Republicans are nothing more than degenerate scumbags who love licking the rectums of the megacorporations. I no longer have time for any of them. They are destroying this country and the quality of life for millions, and I do not want to be associated with them in any way, shape, or form.

Fuck 'em. And not in the good way.
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