"Intruder banging door killed by homeowner" Translation: Murderer off hook

[lostnfound]

Here in Houston, the Chronicle never ceases to impress me with their diligent reporting. Check out this article from yesterday's 'News Briefs':

Intruder (sic) banging door killed by homeowner

A homeowner fatally shot an intruder (sic) who refused to leave his northwest Houston home after repeatedly banging on the door. <...>

The 52-year-old homeowner heard loud knocking on his front door in the 8900 block of Lomax around 9:30 p.m. Wednesday, saw the unidentified man outside and told him to stop. But the intruder ignored those warnings and kept banging on the door with enough force to nearly open it. The homeowner grabbed a pistol.

When the intruder disregarded another request to leave, the homeowner fired several shots through the door. The intruder then walked a short distance down the street and collapsed.

[Spiderm0n]

1. Do they expect to charge him with a crime? nt

[dodgerartful]

26. He commited no crime,

here merely defended his property. I had something like this a week ago, guy pounds on my door, I come out of my shop, ask what he wants, has no reason to be there, told him to leave, he left, had he not I would have shot to wound. Period. We are responsible for our own safety-duh.

[lostnfound]

84. Very odd that the article didn't even give the name of the homeowner..

So you can shoot someone through your door and as far as we can tell, there won't even be an investigation?

Shot more than once?

I'm not saying the homeowner should be locked up, but I'm shocked at the extreme casualness of this report.

[lostnfound]

90. Link to story -- there's very little detail; that's what really bothers me

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2333539

[lostnfound]

93. Further digging shows: These guys were NEIGHBORS..

Yahoo maps shows the two addresses as one-tenth of a mile apart. http://maps.yahoo.com/dd_result?ed=xuibceV.wik6w66HvJEf2JVYLAtyQMSlz6cZJ1cRDltQgxEpyJbOWY0rNg--&csz=houston+tx&country=us&tcsz=houston+tx&tcountry=us

Maybe Mr. Coronado was banging ferociously on the door because he was having some kind of an emergency..!

[lostnfound]

100. Further digging: The victim owned his house for 15 years.

Right around the corner from the unnamed shooter.

And the victim's house has an over-65 exemption (while some are free to imagine PCP, I am free to imagine that he was trying to get help for his aging mother-in-law who had just fallen on the kitchen floor).

(By victim I mean the victim of the shooting, not the victim of the fearful experience of someone continuously knocking at the door.)

[Karenina]

184. Well I sho' do wish

if you have any more clarifying details that you will post them forthwith. No one in Texas, or any major American city, should be surpised at the sloppy reporting, hell, folks get shot and killed with daily regularity in the good ol' U.S.of A. However I WOULD warn anyone new to this thread and determined to read further that there is an alarming array of replies below that would cause ANYONE who values human life to simply :puke: :puke: :puke:

One man, in his fifties, fatally shot another man, who lived around the corner from him- also in his fifties, through his closed front door. If you choose to read further please do keep in mind that THIS IS ALL THE RELIABLE INFORMATION WE HAVE ABOUT THIS INCIDENT.

[KG]

2. how nice.

shooting people thru the door outside your home to protect it. can't be too careful these days, i guess.

won't be too long tho before some DUers tell us how justified this murder was.

[HEyHEY]

4. I won't say it's justified

But if I put myself in that same position, I would be afraid and not thinking rationally. I doubt I would have fired SEVERAL shots in to the door. But this person was banging on the door hard enough to almost open it (says the guy). WHy? do we know? Was there an accident and he needed to use the phone?

[DoNotRefill]

7. Hmmm....

If a guy is in the process of breaking down your front door, knowing that you're inside, don't you think a reasonable person would think the person breaking down the door meant you harm?

What was he supposed to do, wait for the guy to finish breaking it down and kill him before he acted to defend himself?

The blame on this one lies on the guy breaking down the door, not the homeowner.

[Eric J in MN]

9. I blame the homeowner. If we're talking about a normal door and a man

I blame the homeowner. If we're talking about a normal door and a man knocking with his fists, there is no way he could knock the door down.

The guy knocking probably didn't even hear him say to go away through the door.

The homeowner should have called the police.

[arewethereyet]

21. it is very doable to knock down a door

he should have called the police and they may have even gotten there in time to do something about it. till then, he should have waited till the pest had actually entered his home before he shot him.

having not waited for that would put him in prison here in VA.

of course a round or two low or high may have scared him off as well.

but it is not normal behaviour to inanely pound on a door and the guy did have reason to defend himself.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Have you ever seen someone on PCP?

If you had, you might choose differently if that was your fear. People on that drug can take bullets or physical pounding and never notice.

As for your fantasy about firing low or high, no you don't do that. Fire high and you endanger others across the street. Fire low and you endanger yourself and others. No, if you fire your gun, you aim it at your target.

[arewethereyet]

130. hes concealed, where is the target ?

shooting knee level with a proper weapon would be fine and tend to keep you out of jail.

[Solomon]

131. You Guys disgust me. There's absolutely no excuse for killing

someone like this. All the rationalizations for why it's okay to kill someone knocking on your door. Just speculate that he COULD have been on PCP so go ahead and blast away.

We are a sick sick nation. The fear is so palpable it's suffocating.

Let me add one more rationalization. The report doesn't say so (like it said nothing about PCP), but suppose the door knocker was black.
No question he should have been shot dead, right?

Posts on this thread are disgusting. Cases like this always reveal how unprogressive a lot of DUers really are.

Why is the fear so palpable? If someone were knocking on my door I would immediately ask what they wanted.

[GCP]

137. I agree

The fear in this nation is so huge that we've become like the wild west, people would rather shoot someone than find out what's going on. Michael Moore is dead on with this.

It's like the poor Japanese student who was shot to death at Halloween because he went to the wrong house, and the moron who shot him got away with it.

What's up, people? Why do you find it no big deal that this guy got shot?

America is a laughing stock to the rest of the world for crap like this. In the UK, the home-owner would be up for murder, and rightly so.

:grr:

[DoNotRefill]

143. If we're throwing out race hypotheticals...

what if the guy who got shot was white and a Klansman, and the shooter was black? Different result?

I haven't seen ANYTHING stating the race of the shooter and the dead guy.

In this case, the guy DID ask what the person wanted according to the report. When he didn't answer, the homeowner then ordered him to leave. The dead guy didn't respond, and continued to try to gain access. It's not like somebody was ringing his doorbell and he just shot him.

[Muddleoftheroad]

148. Again, it's perspective

It depends on how you view the world and your interactions with it. If you have never had any reasons to fear, maybe you wouldn't have assumed this idiot trying to break in meant to do you harm.

But many of us HAVE had reasons to fear. Crime, attacks, friends who have hurt or killed. In OUR world, someone trying to break into our homes is a big time threat.

And as for someone being black, I AM black. I lived in about the worst neighborhood you can imagine in Southeast D.C. There, someone breaking into your home wanted your stuff for a quick hit on a crack pipe or PCP or heroin or something and they would do whatever it took to get it. If you got in the way, they would hurt or kill you. I didn't care if they were black or white or purple. I cared because they threatened my family and me.

[Pithlet]

164. I also agree

If the intruder made it into the house, well that is an entirely different matter.

I can't believe it is okay to blow someone away for banging on your door. That is what the phone is for. Call the damn police.

[Walt Starr]

212. Now I know the world is about to come to an end!

We agree again!

[DoNotRefill]

25. Doubtful...

"having not waited for that would put him in prison here in VA."

Under §18.2-32 of the Code of Virginia, it's likely that the person would NOT be prosecuted unless there were some other extenuating circumstances that the article didn't mention.

The prior conduct of the attacker (the guy beating down the door) and the reasonableness of the conduct of the victim (shooting him) would come into play.

In Virginia, you don't have to wait to actually die to defend yourself, and I seriously doubt that a jury would find the man's actions unreasonable.

[arewethereyet]

129. the intruder must be presenting you with iminent threat

that is generally taken to mean face to face. Actual court cases demand that this is generally be in the house and facing you. That is to say, if the person is shot in the back, the shooter is at fault. Same thing if he is outdoors and you are not excepting if he is pointing a weapon at you from outside that you can see, proving actual threat.

I am educated as to what I am allowed to do regarding protecting my home and tactics to aid me in doing this.

[DoNotRefill]

139. Agree and disagree...

yes to the imminent threat part, no to the must be face to face part. There's plenty of caselaw out there regarding shootings that occurred when there wasn't unfettered "face to face" contact, for example when one party was sitting in a locked car, and the other party was outside of the car trying to get in. The general rule tends to be if the person is trying to get at you and sucess is imminent, it'll be hard to prosecute sucessfully.

The "you can't shoot people in the back" bit comes from Tenn. v. Gardner, in which a police officer shot and killed a kid who was running away. It's not "ironclad", though, and sometimes it can be justified to shoot somebody in the back, for example if the person's back is to you but they are posing a threat to somebody else, or if there's reason to believe that if they escape, they'll immediately harm or kill somebody else.

[arewethereyet]

191. don't do it in VA others did and discovered their mistake

I'd say in a car is face to face as you can see through glass.

I think we're on similar pages...

[okieinpain]

66. I disagree. person has a right to defend himself. and if someone

is banging on your door and will not stop. then you have the right to bust a cap in his butt. my opinion, might not be right, but with all of the crazies out there better safe then sorry.

[bleedingheart]

3. why didn't the homeowner call the police?

the guy didn't enter the house...he was banging on the door...if the homeowner was that frightened he should have called the police...

Now if the guy had broken the door down then all bets are off...but shooting someone through a locked door is really stupid.

[DoNotRefill]

5. Call the cops and then call Papa John's...

and see who gets there first.

[lazarus]

127. My daughter

over the summer, disappeared. We were sure she was off at a friend's house, but which friend? We had called all of them we knew, and nothing.

So we called the cops, because we're less than an hour from the border, and there have been abductions in the area.

Within 10 minutes, there was a car here. Within another 5, there was a helicopter.

It takes Papa John's about 35 minutes.

Oh, yeah, my daughter's fine. The cop sat her down and told her a few very graphic True Stories about abducted young girls he had found over the years. She hasn't run off like that since.

[Muddleoftheroad]

128. Ten minutes

Ten minutes doesn't do a damn bit of good when someone is breaking into your home. That means they will get there after you might well be dead.

[DoNotRefill]

159. Given this age of "amber alerts"...

you'd expect a quick response time for that kind of call, wouldn't you?

What kind of priority do you think the police would give a "There's somebody knocking on my door, please make him go away" call?

[haele]

190. Four years ago I saw someone in my front yard at 8:30 at night -

Standing by the tree in the middle of the yard, looking at the front window.
At that time, I was living in a "bedroom community/country town" 3 blocks from a major interstate, right off a main street with freeway access - at the end of a long, three-house driveway.

Called the cops; within three minutes, one squad car was up the driveway with the cop check my detached garage, storage building, and the neighbor's detached garage, a minute later, the canine unit came by to help look.

We weren't exactly a "white" neighborhood, nor were we well off - heck, there was a known crack den rental that had been under surveillence off and on across the street over the years, but they were pretty durn quick coming up when I called just for someone looking in.

A lot depends on what is going on in your community, and whether or not there's community policing.

However - someone knocking on the door hard enough to seem to be on the verge of breaking down a door (must have been a pretty flimsy interior type door, or perhaps just the screen door...) can be dealt with in a far different manner than just shooting him or her through the door becuase one thinks someone might "break through" - the operative words there - was the door actually broken or cracked? Or did someone just get panic'd or pissed off and just shoot a neighbor that he may or may not have been having an ongoing dispute with?

Looking at this on a case by case basis - (don't bring up "what would happen if it had been a junkie breaking in on a family - this case wasn't...)
The first case - a door actually broken or in the process of being broken by a threatening stranger might be a clear defensible act. The second - someone - especially someone that could potentially be an aquaintence - just pounding on a door and not stopping when told to - is more like a seriously bad judgement call that ended in an unjustifiable killing.
Once people start thinking that vigilance means vigilantism and justice only belongs to that which is justifiable, we're starting to go back in terms of civilization and the worth of a human life. The right to defend oneself does not mean one can give up any responsibility for one's judgement and actions.

Haele

[DoNotRefill]

199. Locally...

we had a guy who was bludgeoned in the chest and head with a hammer, and was out in the street bleeding profusely from multiple headwounds. It took almost 15 minutes for the first cop car to get there after the call. The paramedics showed up 20-25 minutes after the cops. The police station is less than a mile away, and the rescue squad is 5 blocks away.

I guess it varies by locality...

[HEyHEY]

6. Or yelled

I am about to shoot you through this door.

[bleedingheart]

8. still wouldn't do it... what if you missed the guy and someone

across the street got hit???

I would think that any respectable gun owner would want to know what they are shooting and wouldn't want to make a blind shot..

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Respectable gun owners

Are the ones who live to see the next day. If you try that behavior in most communities, the homeowners would not respond well.

[bleedingheart]

13. so banging on someone's door is something to be shot for?

wow...this could really reduce the Jehovah Witness problem in our community...

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. There are matters of degree to anything

There is a huge difference between flirtation and rape. And there is a huge difference between knocking and trying to knock down.

[Eric J in MN]

17. Since the homeowner had a gun and the knocking man didn't, why

Since the homeowner had a gun and the knocking man didn't, why not open the door and the man knocking what he wants?

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. How was the homeowner to know this?

Somebody is trying hard to break into your home even though you warn him off. I think it's safe to assume that he's nuts, on drugs, armed or all of the above.

And, in case you wish to disregard that list, item two is especially important. Police have been known to put several slugs into someone who is on Angel Dust and the person keeps moving.

[Eric J in MN]

30. Who says he was trying to break in? If he really wanted to

Who says he was trying to break in? If he really wanted to break in, he would have gone through a window. He may have needed to use a phone or had a wrong address.

You don't have a right to assume a man is armed, and kill him without giving him so much as a chance to surrender.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. If someone repeatedly pounds on your door

Like they are trying to break in and you warn them away and they still do it, you have a good reason to believe they are, in fact, meaning to break in.

[Spirochete]

132. It's only the word

of the homeowner saying he was pounding that hard in the first place, isn't it?
I guess if I lived in that state, I could shoot some Jehovah Witness selling Watchtowers through the door, and claim he was pounding the door down and scaring the shit out of me.

[Karenina]

135. I'm glad to see someone point this out.

There's so little info here. Bottom line is someone upset by another one pounding on his door, which provided at least SOME MODICUM OF PROTECTION against the "another" makes a decision to shoot through it killing "another." Never mind the force of the pounding is subjective. Too many unanswered questions.

The shoot-to-kill, ask questions later mentality is DISGUSTING.

[DoNotRefill]

145. So, if there's physical evidence....

that the guy was in fact breaking down the door, it'd be OK?

Breaking down a door tends to leave physical evidence. It's very possible that there is such evidence in this case, possibly in the form of damage to the door and jam.

[Karenina]

149. I'm not trading in "ifs"

My point is there is very little information here.

[DoNotRefill]

158. And the information we DO have...

is that the guy tried to find out what was up, got no response, went and got a gun, tried AGAIN to communicate and order the guy to leave, but the guy continued to beat down the door and got shot for it.

Those are the facts as we have them. Please feel free to explain why you think the facts as reported are somehow inaccurate, and that there was NOT damage to the door, which such an attack could reasonably be expected to produce.

[Eric J in MN]

193. It would take an extremely flimsy door to be broken down by knocking.

Think about it, if you wanted to break down a door in an emergency, would you do this by knocking?

No, you would throw your whole body against the door.

The man knocking probably wanted to ask a question or tell the homeowner something.

[DoNotRefill]

201. Or...

he was beating the hell out of the door...

You can't have it both ways.

If the door was flimsy, then there's no reason for the person outside not to hear and respond to the homeowner, right?

If the door was not flimsy and was thick enough to make it hard to hear what was on the other side, then it would take a hell of a lot of pounding to knock it down, right?

You have no basis for your conclusions that the guy was there to ask a question or tell the homeowner. The report we have contraindicates your conclusion.

[drdigi420]

136. good

jahovah witnesses are evil incarnate

even satanists dont come banging on my door early on saturdays

[Muddleoftheroad]

138. He is the witness here

Who else should we ask?

[Eric J in MN]

192. knocking on a door isn't the way to break into a house

Knocking on a door isn't the way to break into a house.

Saying something, including "go away," through a closed door isn't a good way to be heard.

If the homeowner didn't want to open the door, he could have called down from an upstairs window.

He could have called the police and then waited while holding his gun.

Opening fire through a closed door was the worst option.

[TexasMexican]

62. maybe...

he was just crazy, who is to say that he didnt intend to just pounce on you once you open the door, gun or no gun.

The guy didnt respond to the homeowners questions satisfactorally, he was warned to leave, he didnt.

I agree with the homeowner on this one.

[Eric J in MN]

194. Isn't a more likely explanation that the man knocking needed to tell

Isn't a more likely explanation that the man knocking needed to tell or ask the homeowner something.

If he didn't want to open the door, he could have called the police and waited while holding his pistol, in case the man actually broke down his door.

Which is unlikely, since most doors can withstand knocking.

[DoNotRefill]

202. then why didn't he tell the homeowner whatever through the door?

If the door was flimsy, there should have been no problem hearing through it, right? So why no response and continued beating on the door?

"Which is unlikely, since most doors can withstand knocking."

Depends on the kind of knocking, doesn't it? Doors are generally not too hard to breach, even steel doors with deadbolts, as they're only as strong as the doorjam.

[TexasMexican]

60. yeah thats real smart...

there is some fucked up guy ponding on the other side of my door, and he doesnt respond to my questions in a reasonable manner.

I have a gun and can shoot him, but he cant yet attack me, so I should just open my door and expect him to behave in a rational manner once I do so, and not just lunge at me and try to take my gun? wtf?

Why would I want to open the door and give the guy any kind of advantage over me?

[Occulus]

56. Hey, MUD,

who's left alive to dispute the homeowner?

Nobody?

And you automatically believe the homeowner?

What shit. What utter, utter shit.

[DoNotRefill]

63. Ummm....

if the guy nearly broke down the door, don't you think there might be some evidence of that?

[Muddleoftheroad]

153. Yes, I believe the homeowner

Clearly, the deceased did enough to terrify the homeowner.

[okieinpain]

68. yep, if your doing it in a threating manner. and yes there is a

difference.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

70. ROTFLMAO !! Well said.

[tkmorris]

18. By your reasoning

Anyone who shoots straight and does so first is a "respectable gun owner". I am thankful that the law is a little more stringent than that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. There is a saying

"Better to be tried by 12 than carried by six."

This case seems an ideal expression of that sentiment. You take a risk either way. Clearly, the homeowner decided to take a risk while still alive.

[Eric J in MN]

31. It's not asking for that much bravery for an armed homeowner to

It's not asking for that much bravery for an armed homeowner to open his door and ask a man who was knocking on his door what he wants.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. Wrong

Clearly, you believe this person is up to no good. If you open the door, all you do is give him a chance at you. That door IS there for a reason.

[Solomon]

134. Muddle. You do a disservice to

your avatar with your shoot first position. I wish you wouldn't use Martin, talking like this.

[Muddleoftheroad]

140. Try living in the city sometime

You will see how you respond to someone trying to break in and do you harm.

[Karenina]

146. You DO NOT KNOW

that the "door pounder" was trying to break in. You DO NOT KNOW that the "door pounder" intended any harm to the inhabitant. You DO NOT KNOW why the "door pounder" was so insistent on getting the inhabitant's attention. All that is known is in absence of any information a man shot his neighbor to death through a closed door upon which the neighbor was pounding.

[DoNotRefill]

150. we have few facts...

one of the facts we DO have is that the person had beaten to the door almost to the point that it was forced open by the beating.

this wasn't some girl scout ringing the doorbell repeatedly. that's just annoying. This was somebody who, according to the media report, was trying to gain access to the house and the person inside by an act of violence.

[Karenina]

162. "...beaten to the door almost to the point..."

We DO NOT KNOW that. These are no more than paraphrased words in the news brief.

Did these neighbors have a "history?"

Might the shooter have a vested interest in representing events in a way that justifies his taking another life?

As there was a door between him and his "intruding" neighbor, might a shot at foot level been quite enough to convince those feet to go walking elsewhere?

[DoNotRefill]

163. Everything we know about this case...

comes from the newsbrief. Those are the only facts we have to go on.

If the facts are materially different than what the news article states, obviously we're ALL operating on suspect facts. However, given what we know and what I paraphrased from the news article, and caveated on the fact that the reality of the situation may be different from what was reported, I stand by my assessment.

BTW, the "aim for the foot" bit is generally seen as nonsense. This is why cops aren't taught to shoot the guns out of the hands of criminals.

[Karenina]

166. A homeowner is NOT a policeman.

However, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that a warning shot fired through a closed door would go unnoticed.

[DoNotRefill]

171. Right.

Policemen have an obligation to protect society at large, but not any individual. A private individual who is being threatened, however, does retain the same exact rights to self-defense as policemen do. In case you didn't know this, originally policemen in the US weren't supposed to carry guns. This changed when people realized that just because cops were "on the job", they didn't give up their right to self-defense as a citizen, so they were allowed to carry guns not as a special "perk" of being a cop, but because of their rights as a citizen.

[Muddleoftheroad]

152. What you do know

Is that the homeowner was so scared that he feared for himself enough to shoot. In my book, that takes a lot.

[Solomon]

217. Muddle. You and I have something in common.

I was born and raised in DC too. Bad neighborhood. Had guns stuck in my belly many times, stabbed in the shoulder, etc. Saw a man killed right from my front window. Still doesn't make me want to shoot first and find out later. I do live in the suburbs now. But even when I lived in DC I didn't own a gun. I grew up with the philosophy that having a gun marked you as a person to be shot before you could shoot someone else. I was always nervous when my friends carried their guns.

[solinvictus]

51. Open Door

All it takes is an open door to be overwhelmed in a home invasion. Maybe the homeowner didn't want to expose his loved ones to the probability of being murdered. Call the police?!? Hah!! In Birmingham, AL, a carload of kids shot up the convenience store across the street from my townhome. I called the police immediately after it happened. Response time? Over 35 minutes. No thanks, I'll trust my loaded pistol or carbine every time over the cops.

[okieinpain]

69. dumbest thing in the world to do. I hope you think about that

before you do something like that. I had a experience like that once, but it worked out for the kid and me. he was being chase by some other kids from a night club. he said that he banged on my door because my kitchen light was the only light on. but afterwards my wife reminded me that there was more then just my life on the line, and to not do it again. I think that she made a good point.

[solinvictus]

72. At the door

The person should have responded rather than attempting to force their way inside. In Birmingham, I was on the second floor near a bad area, so I kept a weapon handy at nearly all times. At one point, there were three B&E's resulting in rape near my home. Again, a bad area.

[Solomon]

133. Quintessential american way. Shoot first and ask questions later.

I got mine, and fuck you. America is sick sick sick. The report said the man was knocking hard enough to open the door, not break it down. There's only one reason to knock that hard. The fucking homeowner said nothing to him. You ever knocked on someone's door who didn't answer? You tend to knock harder don't you?

[Muddleoftheroad]

141. Breaking in

I have NEVER knocked on a door hard enough to open it or even nearly so. To do so is clearly an attempt to BREAK IN. Where I have lived, that puts you in immediate jeopardy for your life and the lives of all those who live under your roof.

[Karenina]

151. It is only the word of the homeowner

that the knocking was forceful enough to "nearly" open the door. We have no info.

[Muddleoftheroad]

156. Yes we do

We do know that the homeowner felt threatened enough to shoot a gun. Surprisingly enough, that is a huge leap for most people. Even in the military, where people are trained and trained to shoot, many hesitate or simply won't fire the gun. Among civilians, the numbers are far higher. Many people, even when threatened with harm won't fire their guns. For this homeowner to do so required a big leap and certainly the perceived threat to himself or others in the house.

[Karenina]

168. Pure speculation.

Here's some more. Perhaps the shooter recognized his neighbor and was COMPLETELY aware of why he was banging on the door. Perhaps he also knew his neighbor was likely unarmed and saw an opportunity to settle their differences for good.

My scenario is just as "valid" as yours.

Bottom line in terms of the story:
Person A is at person B's door. (We have NO reliable information that "pounding" even occurred, only the word of Person B).
Person B fatally shoots person A through a closed door.
End of story.

[Muddleoftheroad]

172. Life is speculation

Bottom line, it takes a lot to shoot someone. This homeowne mustered it. Till it is proven he did so for a reason OTHER than self defense, he should be free.

[Character Assassin]

144. Oh, please.

Quintessential american way. Shoot first and ask questions later.

Quite incorrect and utterly irrelevant to this set of circumstances. Two requests for the individual to leave.

The individual is acting in a violent, threatening manner at a residence and it's after nightfall.

The individual used such force that a closed door nearly opened, indicating damage to the hinges.

I got mine, and fuck you.

Equally irrelevant.

America is sick sick sick.

No, you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

The report said the man was knocking hard enough to open the door, not break it down. There's only one reason to knock that hard. The fucking homeowner said nothing to him. You ever knocked on someone's door who didn't answer? You tend to knock harder don't you?

Get real. The account clearly states he was requested twice to leave the property, over a period of time.

The home owner obviously did say something to him. "Leave."

[dodgerartful]

27. I would not care, that is not the time

to be worried about some one accross the street.

[okieinpain]

67. I think the homeowner is justified, but you make a good point

[Columbia]

11. How do you he didn't?

I don't think there is enough information in this article to pass judgement either way. Even if we did have more information, you'd have to put yourself in the shoes of said homeowner and try to understand what type of distress he may have been going through. Who's to say you wouldn't have done the same if you were scared for your life and the lives of your loved ones?

[HEyHEY]

12. in my post above I echo those same sentiments

[Columbia]

15. Got it

[Eric J in MN]

14. Distress of someone knocking on your door doesn't justify shooting through

nt

[Columbia]

50. Doesn't seem like

The guy was knocking on the door to borrow some sugar if his "knocking" almost tore off the door.

[DoNotRefill]

58. did he have to wait to be killed...

before defending himself?

trying to beat down a door is generally seen as a sign of ill intent to most people.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

71. What will follow is two posters that will justify virtually any shooting

by anyone for virtually any reason outside of satanic sacrifice.

There's no logic to be had. Give up.

:toast: I'm with you, though!

[slackmaster]

123. Here in California the only proper response would be to call the cops

However, the incident occurred in Texas where the laws concerning deadly force allow shooting someone who is messing with your property after dark.

[electricmonk]

22. A couple years ago in my town

A 82 year old man shot and killed a 15 year old girl when she knocked on his door. Some other kids had been messing with him earlier and she went to give him something back that they took from his property but when she knocked on the door he shot through the door and killed her. He had been convicted of murder 50 years ago but this time he wasn't even charged.

[GCP]

142. That is so sick and so sad

Where do you live?

[Nlighten1]

24. Moral of the story?

Don't go banging on someone's door with enough force to almost open it and then refuse several requests to stop doing it. In Texas this is as good as a death wish.

[dodgerartful]

28. yep.

[Eric J in MN]

33. He may not have heard the homeowner telling him to go away

He may not have heard the homeowner telling him to go away.

It's also unlikely that the person knocking was strong enough to break a door down with his bare hands.

The decent thing would have been for the armed homeowner to open the door and ask the man what he wanted.

Or even wait holding the gun.

Not to open fire though a locked door.

[DoNotRefill]

34. Decent, but stupid...

"The decent thing would have been for the armed homeowner to open the door and ask the man what he wanted."

If somebody was violently beating your door down, and you yelled to him to go away through the door, would you REALLY open the door?

Would it make any difference if he said "Landshark" beforehand?

[Eric J in MN]

195. He could have called down from an upstairs window then.

A closed door is difficult to hear through.

[DoNotRefill]

203. Was it a two-story house?

or should he have run up onto the roof?

[economic justice]

36. I Agree

I don't trust the local cops to be there to help me all the time. If someone is trying to knock my door down and won't respond to requests to stop, identify, etc.......my family comes first. Houston 2004 - same situation: I shoot the gun.

[meisje]

44. having a heart attack and needed help....

or a child laying in the street after being hit by a car
how would your moral apply to this???

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Perhaps hollering for help

Rather than breaking in. Hmmm, common sense? I guess not.

[DoNotRefill]

59. most people having heart attacks don't tear doors down....

to get into a house. They generally lay on the floor gasping for breath. And if a kid had been hit by a car, don't you think a normal person would scream "HELP!!" while pounding on the door? Or maybe answer when somebody inside yells "what do you want?"

[Isome]

29. I wonder if he was running from someone, or was hard of hearing...

It would be so ironic if he was running from someone he thought was going to hurt him and the homeowner did that someone a favor. That would be something wouldn't it?

Back in the early 80's I read a story in a magazine about an Asian kid on his way to the prom. I think he stopped to pick someone up and it was the wrong residence. But, before he could walk up the walkway to the front door, the man stepped out of his house and shot him dead. So that's how the kid's life ended... dressed to the nine's in his powderblue prom tux and bleeding out on the front walkway of a stranger with a deathly fear of Asians. Nice ain't it?

[DoNotRefill]

32. Sorry, not even close.

The case you're referring to involved a kid on his way to a halloween party. He was a Japanese exchange student. He approached the house, and the wife answered the door. The kid started screaming at her, apparently copying some Japanese shock TV show. The woman screamed for her husband, who got a revolver and came to the door. At this point, the kid was out fooling around with the car in the driveway. The man went outside, the kid saw him, and started approaching him. The man told the kid to stop, but the kid kept coming. The man pointed the revolver at the kid and told him to stop again, and the kid kept advancing. At that point, the man shot the kid.

The man was acquitted after a trial by his peers. And I never heard allegations that the shooting was motivated by dislike of asians before.

[Isome]

39. No, I remember that one too... this was different.

The guy was on his way to the prom. I read it in People magazine... I used to read that back in the day.

That's the one I'm referring to, not the Halloween tragedy. Mmmkay?

[DoNotRefill]

57. Got a link?

thanks.

[Isome]

77. From the 80's? Do you?

I could use that information to do a more comprehensive search of my own.

And after that's done, what exactly do you believe it will have proven: that two Asian kids died from gunshots in the 80's, or something else?

[DoNotRefill]

79. Nope...

a google search for "japanese exchange student gunshot" turned up the incident I'm referring to almost instantly.

Given the lurid details in your story, I'm wondering exactly why nothing turns up when I search for it. That makes me think you're "misremembering" the facts.

[Isome]

82. I don't recall posting anything about a "Japanese exchange student"

I just checked; I didn't write anything about a Japanese exchange student. Making assumptions and then attributing them to someone else is a mistake on your part.

[DoNotRefill]

85. Please read post #32.

in it, I referred to the Japanese Exchange student, and explained what happened.

I'm thinking you have your facts badly distorted. The Japanese exchange student that I referred to in post 32 getting shot came up easily on Google. Your blue tuxedo-wearing asian kid on his way to the prom being shot by somebody who feared asians didn't.

Please back your post up with a link or more information. You claim something happened. I'm asking you to prove it.

[Isome]

92. The sense of urgency isn't there...

but perhaps that's because I'm still unclear as to what exactly it would prove that is relevant to the discussion of the man shot through the door.

A simple search also fails to turn up the former LAPD officer whose head was shoved through glass after a racial profiling stop, and this video was shown on television. Does that mean it didn't happen, either? Of course, not. It takes more information to finally find the actual story, but if one doesn't have the information...

Feel free to continue the search for the story that has no consequence to the initial post of this thread, though. It appears to be important to you.

[DoNotRefill]

96. I assume you're referring to....

the case involving former LAPD detective Don Jackson?

I guess my simple search was a lot easier to conduct than your simple search...

Google: It's a wunnerful thing... ;-)

[Isome]

103. If you have the name ... if you don't... it's not so simple a search.

But, that may have helped you in some way.

[DoNotRefill]

111. Sorry, I don't live in California.

I didn't know his name, I used the facts you presented and found the name in under a minute. My search terms were something like "former LAPD glass window racial profiling video". It popped right up.

[Llewlladdwr]

170. Ummm, Isome?

If your story (or at least it's veracity) is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, why'd you bring it up in the first place?

[Isome]

42. By the by... I didn't write about a "dislike" of anyone in that post.

You read it wrong.

[DoNotRefill]

52. You said...

"dressed to the nine's in his powderblue prom tux and bleeding out on the front walkway of a stranger with a deathly fear of Asians. Nice ain't it?"

If having a deathly fear isn't dislike, what is?

[Isome]

78. Fear is fear...

dislike isn't. I don't believe he would have been shot if the man wasn't afraid of the thin Asian teenager. Do you? Do you think the man's fear was prompted by his dislike of Asians? That would make it a hate crime! Is that what you're insinuating... that it was really a hate crime?

[DoNotRefill]

80. Sorry, you're confused.

I don't think race had anything to do with it. You're the one who said the shooter feared asians. And I know very few people who fear something they like.

[Isome]

81. He shot him... he must have been afraid... in fear.

That's the only time people use guns, isn't it... when they're afraid? The boy was Asian, the man shot the unarmed (no gun, no baseball bat, no zipgun, no nuttin')Asian boy. He had a deathly fear of THAT Asian.

That should clear it up for you. If it doesn't, then sadly, it is you who will remain confused of the definitions of "fear" and "dislike".

[Columbia]

83. Maybe he was just afraid

of him as another human being? I don't know anything of the man, but accusing of him of being racist just because the other person was of another ethnicty is quite presumptuous.

[Isome]

95. No one mentioned racism except you. n/t

[Columbia]

102. You guys are the ones saying "dislike of Asians"

[Isome]

107. No, only one poster used that phrase as a statement. n/t

[Columbia]

110. Wasn't that poster you?

"Back in the early 80's I read a story in a magazine about an Asian kid on his way to the prom. I think he stopped to pick someone up and it was the wrong residence. But, before he could walk up the walkway to the front door, the man stepped out of his house and shot him dead. So that's how the kid's life ended... dressed to the nine's in his powderblue prom tux and bleeding out on the front walkway of a stranger with a deathly fear of Asians. Nice ain't it?"

[Isome]

118. No, I made another statement. Try reading it again. n/t

[DoNotRefill]

87. you've got a lot of unlearning to do...

Plenty of people use guns without being afraid. I shoot regularly at a range. Going by your statement and how many rounds I pump into the backstop, I must really fear that dirt backstop and paper target. It's strange. I never really felt afraid while messing with guns. I guess you can speak for how I feel though. I'm not terribly surprised.

[Isome]

94. That changes things quite a bit.

Someone may be able to explain it better. Using a gun in self-defense requires one to express (to authorities) that they were IN FEAR. Is it your contention that in the instance you're referring to no FEAR was necessary to use lethal force?

Personal assessments are inappropriate. The topic at hand is enough to discuss, or not.

[DoNotRefill]

97. not necessarily.

If the person poses an obvious danger of imminent death or greivous bodily harm to another person, lethal force is justified. Fear does NOT have to be an element.

[Isome]

104. Mmm hmmmm...

Some people aspire to be experts at circumvolution, and others come by it naturally.

Perceiving imminent danger, or grievous bodily harm, is inextricably tied to the fear of it.

That fact is: one has to be in fear of one or the other before a homicide will be considered justified. No one defends themselves against charges of shooting at someone else by saying they WERE NOT afraid, but they "perceived imminent death" or "grievous bodily harm".

Fear is fear, dislike is dislike. Two separate things. Google is wonderful, yes, and so is dictionary.com.

[DoNotRefill]

106. please back that up. Come on, quote some code.

"That fact is: one has to be in fear of one or the other before a homicide will be considered justified. No one defends themselves against charges of shooting at someone else by saying they WERE NOT afraid, but they "perceived imminent death" or "grievous bodily harm"."

Sure they do. This is often the case in "defense of others" scenarios. "Your honor, he was pointing a gun at him and screaming that he was going to kill him, so I shot him." Judge: "Case dismissed." Ability, opportunity, jeopardy, but no fear.

Same deal with defense of self: "Your honor, he said he was going to stomp me to death with his boots. I took him at his word, so I shot him to protect myself. These other people all saw it." Result: case dismissed.

[Isome]

108. Please set the example.

Take the lead and post statutes, from any of the states, wherein "fear" (using any synonym) of "iminent danger" is NOT a requisite for the use of lethal force.

I contend that defendants cite fear for their life, child's life, etc. as their sole reason. But, again, take the lead and post a source wherein a defendant says something to the effect of, "No, your honor, I wasn't afraid. But I knew bad man/woman/child was going to hurt me, so I bravely pulled out my weapon and shot him/her."

[DoNotRefill]

112. I already did. Read #105.

eom

[Isome]

116. There's no source to a case saying the defendant was NOT afraid.

The statute issue has been addressed in previous posts. It's the posts about fear being inextricably linked to the perception of danger/death/bodily harm. Obtuse arguments to the contrary are... just that.

There is no source referenced wherein a defendant proclaims they weren't AFRAID, but they knew death was imminent, so they had no choice but to calmly/ bravely/ stoicly kill or shoot someone. Even police officers dispense with any notion that they're not afraid when facing dangerous situations. But, for the sake of a combative, obtuse argument, it seems the very idea of fear must be disputed.

It will be interesting to read further stories about the individual who shot the would-be intruder. I anticipate the word "fear" will creep in the story somewhere.

[DoNotRefill]

147. I offered the code...

which contains NO "prong" that there be fear, only that there be imminent danger.

You say there must be fear for it to be justified. Fine. Show me where it says that in the code. I've posted the code for you, so it should be pretty easy. If you want to look at the unedited code, try http://www.findlaw.com and have at it.

[slackmaster]

124. Note use of the words "disregarded" and "ignored" in the article

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2333539

Kind of rules out a deaf person or someone who didn't understand English.

Of course the press never gets facts wrong, eh?

[maggrwaggr]

35. One time somebody was banging like crazy on my front door

I was in the bathroom taking a shit.

I was very annoyed. They wouldn't go away. Wouldn't shut up. I was angry.

Finally i wiped my ass and got up to see what the hell was going on.

My garage was on fire.

The people were trying to help me out.

[Solomon]

218. LOL! Sorry to laugh in such a dreadful

thread, but you really hit the spot.

[DrWeird]

37. NRA wet dream.

They get to shoot somebody and get away with it. I'm sure the guy was happy as a clam. And not the least bit worried about his personal safety.

[economic justice]

38. Read minds, huh?

If they disagree with you on an issue they must not even have a heart? FYI, many progressives (like me) have awakened to this issue under this administration.
edit: Meaning, this administartion scares me to the point that I believe it's essential for democracy to survive -- for the people to be armed. It's a new world.

[DrWeird]

45. Read minds? Hey at least I didn't shoot the guy.

You'd have to be a mind reader to think that somebody pounding on your door was trying to kill you.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Or just a crime victim

Amazing, some people actually have been victims of crime. Or they know those who have. And, guess what, they don't want anything to happen to themselves or their family.

[maggrwaggr]

41. I think that's a stretch

these kind of people are scared shitless at the littlest noise outside their windows.

They think the boogeyman's coming to get them. They watch way too much of the local news and see the crime crime crime and they think it's everywhere right outside their doors.

The guy was probably peeing his pants when he pulled the trigger.

[DoNotRefill]

53. If that's the case...

"The guy was probably peeing his pants when he pulled the trigger."

then the shooting was justified.


rule #1: If you're trying to scare the piss out of somebody, don't be surprised if you suceed.

[Paranoid_Portlander]

40. Violent pounding on my front door,

last year at 7:00 on a Sunday morning. I had my cell phone with my finger on 9, as in 911, when the pounding suddenly stopped. The plan was to run out the back door with the cell phone and hide in the dense shrubbery while calling the police. The pounder would have been easy to spot with his T-shirt that said "I can fix anything."

[meisje]

43. It's a crime and he should be charged

You simply cannot shoot someone for banging and nearly opening the door, maybe they need to look at the definition of "intruder". You also cannot shoot a man in the back who broke in to your house and is running away. It is not a crime if he is in your house and coming at you or in your general direction, fire away. U.P.S. bangs on my door like a drum and you don't see me taking shots at them.

[opihimoimoi]

54. The Homeowner shooter was prolly banging the victims wife

who just found out and was coming over to a clean clock.

Bingo.

"Honest, officer, I donnu who this fellow is."

[DoNotRefill]

55. Please cite the code...

that's applicable in this case and says that it's a crime.

[DoNotRefill]

61. This is kind of funny in a sick way.

Some people here seem to prefer that the guy allow himself to be killed rather than kill the person breaking into the house.

[maggrwaggr]

65. Well .....

I think most people find it a bit suspect.

If the guy's life was indeed in danger, of course he was justified.

If he was just being stupid and paranoid, well then no.

Like I said above, I had someone frantically pounding on my door once and they were trying to tell me my garage was on fire. What if I'd've shot them instead?

I think a lot of people here are equating it to the situation where the redneck asshole shot the Japanese foreign exchange student because the poor kid couldn't understand him when he said "FREEZE"

[DoNotRefill]

73. It'd depend....

"Like I said above, I had someone frantically pounding on my door once and they were trying to tell me my garage was on fire. What if I'd've shot them instead?"

on if they were working on breaking your door down, didn't respond when you asked them "what's up" and then to leave, and then continued to try to gain entrance.

[Serenity-NOW]

64. Texans don't have back doors?

How clever does an armed person need to be to call the cops and then exit the back door and get the drop on this guy?

Shooting blind... never a good idea. Two questions, was the 'intruder' who never intruded deaf maybe? What does 'nearly broken down' mean? My deadbolts stop anything that doesn't break the door jam. Just another testament to the fear we live with these days...

[0rganism]

74. Now we have exactly ONE side of the story...

We will never learn WHY the "intruder" wanted to get in. He is dead now, and the dead are notoriously reticent.

Was he really just banging hard on the door, or was he yelling "Help, help!"

Did he speak English? Was he crazy? Was he on drugs? Was he deaf? Was he retarded? Maybe some of these can be answered in the long run.

If he wanted to break in, why didn't he go through a window when the homeowner was gone?

Did he just want to earn a spot in the Darwin awards?

"...not even the wise know all ends."

[DoNotRefill]

76. Anybody want to bet....

that there's a history of alcohol or drug abuse for the guy that got shot, or that he had alcohol or drugs in his system when he was shot?


Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Hippo_Tron]

75. If serving on the jury I would NEVER vote to convict this man of anything

Not that I think that all burglers should be killed or that this man deserved to die, however, I believe that if you break into somebody else's property you run the risk of being killed plain and simple. Don't do it and you won't get killed.

[FDRrocks]

86. Call the police, and shoot the guy if he breaks in... the guy is a murdere

Seriously, the fact that some DU'er condone this is disgusting. The man could've easily trained his aim at the door and waited for it to either come down or the victim to leave. If he was knocking hard enough to knock it down, why didnt it fall.

This is gross murderistic buillshit.

[DoNotRefill]

88. Because...

rather than giving the guy the opportunity to be inside the house and start beating the old guy to death, the guy shot him before he was able to knock the door down completely.

If you've got a guy running towards you with a knife acting like he's going to kill you, do you wait until the split nanosecond before the knife enters your chest to defend yourself? You can, but that's an excellent way to end up dead. It's a far safer bet to shoot the guy when he's 10 feet away. It's not as dangerous to you, and it's legal.

Murder is defined as a human being illegally killing another human being with malice aforethought. Given that shooting the guy was apparently legal, it's hard to see how it was an illegal killing. That precludes it being murder, or even manslaughter.

[FDRrocks]

89. Murder is defined in 3 different degrees...

The guy was obviously aware of the circumstance. If he sat far enough from his front door to wait for the guy to either stop or break in, I wouldn't give a shit.

This guy is a murderer. Seriously. He shot a guy knocking on his door. It didn't come down.

[DoNotRefill]

91. and EVERY degree of murder...

requires the illegal killing of one human being by another human being with malice aforethought. Manslaughter is defined as the illegal killing of one human being by another human being without malice aforethought (this is broken down further into voluntary and involuntary, but the illegal killing of a human being by another human beings is necessary for a manslaughter conviction of any stripe, too).

In short, if the killing ain't illegal, by DEFINITION it's neither murder or manslaughter. And definitions of crimes is extremely important in the criminal justice system.

Please cite the applicable law that's pertinent in this case which criminalizes what he did. After you do that, I'll quote the applicable statute which says it's OK.

[FDRrocks]

98. malice aforethought is murder one...

accidental killings are manslaughter. This is not what happened. You do not accidentally pick up a weapon and fire it at a 2 foot wide are where you know another human is.

Say whatever you want... the person wasn't posing a threat to his life. The man did not pose a real threat since it could've been a frantic kid for all he knew. Force to knock down a door would knock down a door.

This is murder.

[DoNotRefill]

99. You need to go back to the statute books....

ALL murder charges require the illegal killing of a human being by another human being with malice aforethought. "Murder one" (aka "capital murder") is generally murder with special circumstances, like the illegal killing of a police officer engaged in official duties or the killing of a person during the commission of another felony.

[FDRrocks]

101. capital murder reguires the victim being robbed in the process

How do you justify shooting someone through a door? When you don't know what they are knocking for? I say knocking b/c the defendant claims the victim knocked on the door witb force enought to knock it down...but it still stood.

The man should be tried.

[DoNotRefill]

105. In what jurisdiction???

Here's a slightly abbreviated copy of Texas's murder statute:

§ 19.01. Types of Criminal Homicide
(a) A person commits criminal homicide if he intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence causes the death of an individual.
(b) Criminal homicide is murder, capital murder, manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.

§ 19.02. Murder
(b) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual;
(2) intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual; or
(3) commits or attempts to commit a felony, other than manslaughter, and in the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempt, or in immediate flight from the commission or attempt, he commits or attempts to commit an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a felony of the first degree.

§ 19.03. Capital Murder
(a) A person commits an offense if he commits murder as defined under Section 19.02(b)(1) and:
(1) the person murders a peace officer or fireman who is acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty and who the person knows is a peace officer or fireman;
(2) the person intentionally commits the murder in the course of committing or attempting to commit kidnapping, burglary, robbery, aggravated sexual assault, arson, or obstruction or retaliation;
(3) the person commits the murder for remuneration or the promise of remuneration or employs another to commit the murder for remuneration or the promise of remuneration;
(4) the person commits the murder while escaping or attempting to escape from a penal institution;
(5) the person, while incarcerated in a penal institution, murders another:
(A) who is employed in the operation of the penal institution; or
(B) with the intent to establish, maintain, or participate in a combination or in the profits of a combination;

§ 19.04. Manslaughter
(a) A person commits an offense if he recklessly causes the death of an individual.

§ 19.05. Criminally Negligent Homicide
(a) A person commits an offense if he causes the death of an individual by criminal negligence.

Now here's the Texas self-defense statute:

§ 9.31. Self-Defense
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

-AND-

§ 9.32. Deadly Force in Defense of Person
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31;
(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and
(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor.

OK, I know it's a lot of text. Here's the general gist though, as applied to this case. The guy who was shot was beating down the guy's door. That's an attempted use of illegal force. Somehow I doubt that a reasonable person would think the guy breaking down the door to enter the house was doing so to ask the homeowner to crumpets and tea. given that, I don't see how you could say it was NOT justified. On top of that, the last (b) section directly above this paragraph is dispositive in this situation.

[Speed8098]

113. How Dare you

I am appalled at the posts from you and Muddleoftheroad.

You naturally assume that the guy banging on the door had some sort of dark motive for being there. Why would you do that? No facts are published, you have no idea WHY the man was banging on the door.

You keep saying that he was trying to BREAK IN. Why?? Where is the evidence that this probable senior citizen was BREAKING IN?

ANY OF YOU THAT CONDONE THE ACTIONS OF THE SHOOTER SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES.

Is this what we want our country to turn into? Shoot first?

That is *'s America, not mine. You advocates of this action disgust me.

[DoNotRefill]

115. "who dares, wins".

How dare WE????? Heh. How dare YOU second guess both the shooter AND the cops! The article doesn't state that the shooter was arrested, does it?

The article DOES say that the guy was banging on the door with enough force to nearly break it down, AND that the guy was told to leave but continued beating the door down. Given those facts as reported, what on EARTH makes you think there was NOT a dark motive? What explanation of his behavior would POSSIBLY be plausible given the facts as reported? Hmmm... When confronted with a locked door, the guy tries to beat it down. When ordered to leave, the guy not only doesn't leave, but continues to beat down the door while refusing to answer the guy.

Obviously, he wanted to watch the People's Court, right?

How dare we? HOW DARE YOU!!!!

:evilgrin:

[Speed8098]

120. The cup is half empty in your eyes obviously

(on edit:fixed typo)
Look, the problem I have is that the shooter shotthrough the door without knowing the intentions of the person doing the banging.

The only testimony is that of the shooter. I wonder what the dead man would have to say.

Look at posts 93 and 100 of this thread, check the yahoo map. I've only been on my block for 6 years and I recognize the people that live around me. According to one poster here, this guy lived there 15 years.
Even if there was no recognition, shooting through the door is not the way to handle that situation.


What explanation of his behavior would POSSIBLY be plausible given the facts as reported?

Maybe there there was actually a real intruder in the house of the guy that was shot. Maybe the guy was having a heart attack. Maybe a vicious dog was chasing the guy. Maybe the moon was falling, hell, we could speculate all day long. For every suspicious reason you have, I have one that is totally innocent.

I do not want to live in a world where my neighbors shoot through their doors without knowing why I'm there. Do you?


The only way to fix this shit is to get our country out of the hands of these warmongering rednecks in the worst administration in history.

The shooter was wrong.
And you are wrong.

Read my sig line.

(on edit:fixed typo)

[DoNotRefill]

157. How many people having heart attacks go around trying to break down doors?

You offer rationalization after rationalization with NO facts to back it up.

If the guy was being chased by a dog, then why didn't he respond either time the guy tried to communicate with him? Oh yeah, he was deaf and having a heart attack... If there was a real intruder that the dead guy was trying to warn the homeowner about, or if the house was on fire, why didn't the dead guy respond either time the guy tried to communicate with him? Oh yeah, he was deaf, having a heart attack, and was being chased by a pack of wild dogs that didn't manage to catch up with the guy while the homeowner tried to talk with him, went and got his gun, and tried to talk to him again.

You forgot to mention the possibility that the guy breaking down the door might have been actually selling girl scout cookies, or raffle tickets to support the local rescue squad, or candy bars to finance his child's band trip, or whatever other completely implausible pipe-dream you care to put forward.

The article provides very few facts. What it DOES say is that the guy repeatedly tried to communicate with the dead guy, that the guy ordered the dead guy off of his property but got no response, and that the dead guy came close to beating the door down and gaining access to the homeowner. Of course, I'm sure you'll hypothesize that he was just trying to invite the homeowner to a birthday party in an unconventional manner or some other such nonsense.

[Speed8098]

173. I'm not the one who speculates wildly

You are. The point I made is that there is a variety of innocent reasons someone would be pounding on THEIR NEIGHBORS door.

The article provides very few facts. What it DOES say is that the guy repeatedly tried to communicate with the dead guy, that the guy ordered the dead guy off of his property but got no response, and that the dead guy came close to beating the door down and gaining access to the homeowner.

How do we know this?? Because the shooter said so??

I read the article, where is the witness statement?

Fear is a powerful tool, and it looks like it has worked on you. Your fear has turned into a anger at me because I won't follow your rationalization.

You may choose to shoot, me, I step back from the door 6 feet and wait. If this is an intrusion, the guy is dead before he crosses the threshold, if it's not, I still sleep well every night.

We can do this all night. I still maintain that the shooter was wrong, and as you can see from the posts to this thread, most people agree with me.

I refuse to let myself be a part of *'s America. Fear will not dictate my life. Once again I ask you to read my signature line. It applies.

[DoNotRefill]

175. I'm not angry at you...

I don't even KNOW you.

Just as you don't know me, or the level of fear I live with (which is very low, btw).

And opening a door to a raving maniac who is beating the door down doesn't strike me as a life-prolonging idea for the person opening the door.

[Speed8098]

176. "And opening a door to a raving maniac "

Again, my point is that we don't know the reason he was beating on the door. I don't go around assuming someone is a raving maniac because they are having a moment of panic, especially if there is a LOCKED door between us.

And by the way, I never said I would open the door. I said I would step back 6 feet and WAIT. If I've got a gun, what do I have to lose by waiting for a moment to see what happens? I have the door in my sights, if it opens and there is actually a threat to my life, I shoot.

But on the other hand, the pounding could stop. The fact is, we don't know why the man was at the door.

We are forced to take the words of the shooter.

If you just shot someone who has lived 1/10 of a mile down the road for 15 years, what are you going to tell the police?

[DoNotRefill]

179. either...

"he was trying to steal my cheese", or "He was coming right for us!"

:evilgrin:

In reality, I'd tell them exactly what happened, the unvarnished truth.

Why? Because if forensic and other physical evidence contradicted my story, I'd be in a world of hurt. I also know the law, and wouldn't shoot unless it's justified.

[Isome]

117. It's worse than that.

Arguments are made in favor of killing first and asking questions later. But, equally adamant arguments are made doubting the veracity of the guilty pleas of known white supremacists caught in possession a cyanide bomb and transporting weapons across state lines. IMO, those are diametrically opposing stances to take.

[Muddleoftheroad]

126. Appalled

Where did you grow up or where do you live? I mean the question. It's not sarcasm.

Personally, I've lived in a bunch of places including Southeast D.C. Living with crime -- deadly crime, drug crime, assault, robbery, etc. -- is an every day fact of life there only a short distance away from the capitol.

Except there we aren't allowed to defend ourselves. I couldn't have a gun. I couldn't protect myself, my family, my possessions, etc. That, and the ongoing crime, lack of opportunity and bad schools, etc. are the reasons I got out.

So, depending on your perspective, you either see someone consistently almost breaking down your door as a prank or a major threat. Until you have seen four police offices try (and I mean TRY) to subdue some whacked out guy on PCP, DON'T try and tell me I am being paranoid under these circumstances.

As for this instance, it was made clear that the homeowner thought the man was not just banging on the door, but trying to break in. Once your actions start heading down that path, EVERY homeowner has a reason to fear for his life and lives of his loved ones.

And, sorry, some of us care more for the lives IN our house than those who appear to be trying to break in. That is not *'s America, that is the real America. You can let people break into your home. I will not.

[grayrace]

109. sad people are defending this obviously unstable person

someone is knocking on your door and your instinct is to shoot?

[DoNotRefill]

114. Nah....my instinct is to call out "who is it???"

and if they don't answer and continue trying to break down the door, then to draw a gun. If they actually break down the door, I don't bother asking who is it, I look at them to see if I know the person, and THEN I'd shoot.

Personally, I'd prefer to use a flamethrower for home defense, but my wife will not allow it. She thinks it'd be too hard on the drapes, et cetera. Bullet holes are relatively easy to patch, however, so she's OK with guns. :evilgrin:

Fortunately, I'm well known in the area I live in, and the locals wouldn't dream of messing with me, even to commit "DoNotRefill suicide". They go to the cops for that service, since "blue suicide" tends to be less painful. Non-locals would never come into the area, for fear that we'd kill, skin, and eat them. :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[Eric J in MN]

198. Can't your door withstand someone knocking? If you want

Can't your door withstand someone knocking? If you need to break down a door in an emergency, you throw you whole body against the door. You don't knock.

[lostnfound]

119. Amazing, isn't it? And it was HIS NEIGHBOR!!

See posts at the top which I added -- the guy actually lived a couple hundred yards away.

I've decided to investigate it for the local radio news and see what else is behind the Chronicle white-wash.

At this point, I'm betting it turns out that the victim was a) drunk (New Years Eve), b) deaf/hard of hearing, c) having an emergency and looking for help, or d) angry and/or was intentionally murdered.

[Q]

121. This is why America is the 'murder capital' of the world...

..with the 'shoot first and ask questions later' mentality.

- Anyone would be fearful of someone banging on their door. But common sense says that one should at least wait until the door is broken down before one starts shooting. Banging on a door is not a capital offense.

- Many Americans seem to suffer from the 'Wild West' syndrone where they think they can kill someone for simply being ON their property.

[Muddleoftheroad]

154. Actually, you are completely wrong

The reason America is the murder capital of the world involves mostly drug crime and murders related to it.

If someone is trying to break into your home, why should you wait to see if they are also armed? Once someone goes past the law and tries to break in and is undeterred by you telling them to go away, I think it's pretty safe to assume they also mean to do you harm and might well have the ability to do so.

[William Seger]

160. Neighbor

Actually, I guessed that they were neighbors when I first read it. We have a similar law here in Colorado (everyone calls it the "Make My Day" because you literally can shoot someone if you just feel threatened), and most of the cases I've heard of have involved neighbors and sounded a lot like this. Maybe the cases where someone shot a burglar in the middle of the night just don't get as much coverage, but stories like this are too common here.

This was clearly an irrational reaction to the threat and the guy should be charged with homicide. A couple of months ago, a co-worker who lives in an apartment building had an extremely drunk neighbor pounding on his door in the middle of the night and refusing to leave. (I don't know if they had any "history".) My friend called the police, then loaded his pistol just in case things got out of hand before they showed up. But they did show and hauled the guy away. It was a stupid and irresponsible thing for the drunk neighbor to be doing, but killing him for it would be just plain immoral. Had he broken down the door, then that would be a completely different situation -- the kind the law was intended to cover, I'd say. Shooting someone through a door should be a crime, but he would probably not be charged in Colorado, either.

[slackmaster]

122. The shooter violated a basic rule of safe gun handling

Or two, depending on how you break them out: Never fire when you are unsure of the backdrop, i.e. where the bullet will go if it misses or completely penetrates the target. Shooting blindly as it seems he did in this case can endanger innocent people or property that happens to be in the line of fire.

I wouldn't have fired unless and until the intruder actually came in. As for the guy who was banging on the door and did not leave when instructed to do so, too fucking bad for him. He may have been drunk and at the wrong address, or he may have been intent on breaking in. Either way he's largely to blame for his fate. You just don't do that in Texas.

[PSR40004]

125. I think the back stop was the intruder...

I'm not sure what I'd do, the story is too vague but when the intent is to shoot someone that is the back stop.

[bvar22]

155. Loud knocking on the door., even pounding....

...can also be:

1) a fireman whose ears are muffled by a helmet trying to warn the homeowner that smoke is coming from his attic....

or

2) a policeman trying to wake up the household because of a gas leak in the sewers,

or

3) or a Representative of george bush* warning of an eminent terror attack (snark!)


or

4) a frantic neighbor with a hearing loss trying to get help for an accident victim...

or

5) make up your own. the list of innocent reasons is endless.


Shooting through a closed door at an unidentified person is COWARDLY, PARANOID, DANGEROUS, A THREAT TO YOURSELF AND NEIGHBORS, INDEFENSIBLE!!!

[Pithlet]

165. If my baby were in danger

and I couldn't get to a phone, I would run up to the nearest door and pound frantically on it until someone answered. Like someone else said, there are many possibilities that could cause someone banging on a door, and not all of them point to intruder.

There is nothing defensible about what the shooter did. Nothing.

[DoNotRefill]

174. In your hypo, while you were pounding on the door...

don't you think you'd be yelling something about "My baby needs HELP!" or something along those lines?

If somebody inside asked you "Who are you and what the hell do you want?", don't you think you might TELL THEM?

If the person inside said "go away or I'm going to shoot you!", don't you think you'd run to another door?

Fact: breaking and entering is a felony. There are some justification defenses (for example, if you're freezing to death and break into an unoccupied place to take shelter from the elements), but those are up to the defendant to prove at trial.

[Pithlet]

178. I may

be banging on the door so hard it would be hard to tell. After my first son was born, I was home alone with him, and didn't know I had the ringer on my phone off. My husband and mother had been trying to call me all day. I had dangerous health problems after my baby was born, so my mom panicked and rushed over. When she was banging on the door, I could not hear her yells, only the banging. The door was shaking. I was terrified, not knowing who it was. Thank God I don't keep a gun, and don't have the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. It's a stupid one to have, period.

Regardless, the door was closed. He shot through a shut door. If the door broke open, then yes, the shoot would be justified in self defense.

[bvar22]

180. This was NOT a breaking and entering.

It WAS a neighbor knocking (or banging) on the door.

This incident may have DEVELOPED into a breaking and entering at which point the gunman would have been able to identify the intruder and choose the appropriate level of response.

AND...due to many circumstances, not the least of which is a closed and locked door, the knocker MAY NOT BE ABLE TO HEAR a voice from the other side.

SHOOTING THROUGH A CLOSED DOOR WITHOUT KNOWING WHO IS ON THE OTHER SIDE IS INDEFENSIBLE!

[DoNotRefill]

181. Ever hear of the legal concept of "attempt"?

the crime of breaking and entering wasn't completed. Why? because the criminal got shot before he could break the door all the way down.

[lostnfound]

182. My point wasn't whether it was justified;more that it needs investigation

and I have no confidence based on the newspaper report that it will get ANY investigation.

[DoNotRefill]

205. Why not?

there's a dead body with a bullet in it. The cops aren't just going to take the guy's word for it, they'll check the story out, and investigate things like both parties criminal background, possible chemical factors, and evidence at the scene of the guy's story. I'm sure they'll canvass the neighborhood for witnesses, et cetera. If it's an "iffy" case, they'll send it to the grand jury or local equivalent.

[Karenina]

183. You DO NOT KNOW that

the NEIGHBOR was attempting to break in. None of us know, but for the paraphrased words of someone who has just taken a life, that "knocking, rapping, pounding" even occurred. For all we know the shooter may have seen his NEIGHBOR approaching the door, grabbed his gun and shot him through it IN COLD BLOOD. To characterize the deceased as a CRIMINAL is a bit over the top.

[DoNotRefill]

204. the report states...

that he was knocking so hard that the door almost opened.

That's what we have to go on.

That definitely conveys the impression that it wasn't some kind of light tapping, but rather a serious pounding that damaged the door to the point that it almost failed.

What would you call somebody who is beating down a door? Here, that's attempted breaking and entering, a felony. What would you call somebody who has no right to be on the property, is ordered to leave, and doesn't? Here that's trespass, a misdemeanor. So no, I don't think the sobriquet of "criminal" is over the top.

[Eric J in MN]

196. If he wanted to break in, why not use a window?

Is loudly banging on the front door a good way to break in to commit a crime?

If you needed to break down a door in an emergency, wouldn't you throw your body against the door instead of knocking for a long time?

[DoNotRefill]

206. Personally, I'd kick the door in.

it's surprisingly easy to do.

I'd bet money on it that the guy who got shot was under some kind of chemical influence, either alcohol or drugs. I don't have proof of this, but it's the most plausible explanation for his behavior, and I'm sure the autopsy will turn it up. If this is the case, trying to beat down the door isn't a surprise, since intoxicated people are famous for doing stupid things.

Criminals do stupid stuff all the time. Does this surprise you?

[Cronus Protagonist]

161. He was a pizza delivery man

And the pizza was getting cold....

"Lick Bush" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[mainer]

167. Is the homeowner lying?

How do we know the victim actually tried to 'break the door down"? Maybe it was just a frantic rapping on the door.

After all, this shooter is now going to have to defend himself in court, and the only other witness is now dead. You'd expect the shooter to make the victim sound as threatening as possible, just to make the shooting look justifiable.

I want to know a lot more about the victim who, after all, is a man in his fifties. Hardly what I'd picture as a vicious home invader.

[Karenina]

169. America has become

a VERY SICK and VIOLENT society. It's SO SAD.

[Deja Q]

177. Was this potential intruder running from somebody/something nasty?

Need more to go on.

It's like watching a video of a cop beating the snot out of some guy. It's out of context; what happens before the violence determines if it's justified.

[Z-axis]

185. The situation tells little, the posters tell volumes

A very few said simply, there is insufficient information to determine anything (other than its sad when someone gets shot).

All the other replies seem typical of rw/conservatives who like to fill in things with their own agenda whenever there is inadequate information.

This is supposed to be a progressive board, is it not?

[Karenina]

187. Don't blame the board

It's the AMURIKAN WAY!

[Judi Lynn]

188. Bless you!

Just what the doctor ordered!

Welcome to D.U. :hi: :hi: :bounce:

Glad you took the time to notice there are some here who are different from Democrats. They are not notable for their maturity or wisdom.

[Z-axis]

186. The situation tells little, the posters tell volumes

A very few said simply, there is insufficient information to determine anything (other than its sad when someone gets shot).

All the other replies seem typical of rw/conservatives who like to fill in things with their own agenda whenever there is inadequate information.

This is supposed to be a progressive board, is it not?

[bluestateguy]

189. A person's home is their castle

This is an unfortunate incident, but this would not have happened had the intruder heeded the homeowner's request.

[Eric J in MN]

197. It's difficult to hear through a closed door.

The homeowner should have called down from an upstairs window.

[DoNotRefill]

200. they must have different kinds of doors where you are...

We have a steel front door, and I can hear people fine and they can hear me fine on the other side of it.

[Judi Lynn]

207. I remember the same kind of situation happening to me

as a teenager, alone at night, with my mother and kid sister.

Very late in the evening, a man pounded on the door. I went to the door, and, in total fear, looked out of a tiny window, and realized I didn't recognize him, and that he was very large. As I was terrified, I believed he looked totally scary.

I ran back, told my mother, who called the police. In the meantime, I located a small pistol my father kept in one of his drawers and loaded it.

We stood in another room and waited for a few minutes, as I determined if he came in I would step simply show I was aiming a gun at him. None of us EVER imagined we should kill him.

The cops came, and talked with us, then with him, and learned his car had run out of gas, and he had seen a light on in our house, and wanted to use the phone.

He HAD said something outside the door, but I was so terrified I couldn't understand what the completely W.A.S.P.-ish man was saying.

The cop looked at the pistol and told me I had a bullet too large for the pistol jammed into the chamber and that it would have been somewhat unpleasant had it gone off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another time, on a warm summer evening, in a new house, I walked into my bedroom, and smelled cigarette smoke wafting INTO MY ROOM from outside. Somewhat scary, as well. I ran and turned off the light, then crept to the window, gripped in complete fear, pulled the curtain, and found myself looking right into the dark outline of someone looking into my room. My sister said that my screaming was as loud as a train whistle, it seemed.

Once again, we called the cops. They were there within five minutes.
They saw plants smashed down outside my window. They didn't find the person. At no time did ANY of us even dream of grabbing a gun and trying to shoot anyone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, one night, when I was alone in that house, I heard several male voices coming toward my house from the street, moving toward the car bridge we had in our drive, across a small stream. They were probably 50 feet away from the house.

I turned off the lights. I grabbed a poker from the fireplace, and planned to stand by the door and clobber whomever came through the door. Then I remembered to call the cops, and returned to stand beside the door with the poker.

The cops came within five minutes. They rounded up the guys. They were teenaged friends of my sister, and they had come to the house to T.P. the place, actually.

At one point, they had knocked on the door, and spoke very loudly, as in yelling. I was terrified, yet I didn't think of running off and getting one of my father's guns. Nope.

It was all resolved very patiently, and properly by the cops. The guys were thankful that I recognized one of their names and told the cops, and they were released.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think our message board has been invaded by a bunch of cowards, frankly. I don't think ANYONE can have such complete control over his/her life that having a gun will assure him/her he/she will NEVER need to fear again.

You can't shoot cancer, you can't shoot your car as it's heading for a head-on collision. Regarding your fellow man in such low esteem, you will raise your children to be twisted, hate-filled, disrespectful citizens who will become Republicans!

Magical guns are actually stupid. Real problems require intelligent solutions.

[DoNotRefill]

208. Glad you weren't hurt...

but there have been situations where being unable to access a gun has lead to deaths.

One of the most horrifying happened in California.

There's a child access prevention law there. Basically, it says that if a person under 18 can access a gun, there has to be a lock on it. There was a family where the kids were home alone, under the care of one of the teenaged daughters. the parents had complied with the law. Some nutjob cut the phone lines, and broke into the house. The girl had been taught how to handle and shoot firearms. She tried the phone, found it dead, went to get the gun, it was locked and she didn't have the key, so she ran next door to call 911. In the meantime, the guy murdered a couple of the kids with a pitchfork, really butchered them. Had she been able to use the gun, she could have saved the lives of her siblings. Instead, she had to dial 911, and they died.

Guns are a last resort, but in a last resort kind of situation, where all else fails, they can save your life.

[Loonman]

209. Self defense - justifiable homicide

n/t

[rman]

210. defense against... banging on door

...obvious justification for use of deadly force.
not

[Q]

211. The responses to this thread...

...show that the Democratic party must work even harder for gun control and to keep firearms out of the hands of the loonies.

[Muddleoftheroad]

213. Only if it wants to lose EVERY election

Ask Al Gore how well THAT attitude played in his home state.

[Romulus]

214. define "loonies" please

My guess is that would be anyone who doesn't:
1) read the NY Times,
2) drink lattes,
3) pooh-pooh military or law enforcement service as being a "lower class phenomena,"
4) or religiously listen to and believe everything on NPR.

:eyes:

[Q]

215. No...I would define a 'loony'...

...as someone that would shoot through a door before knowing the circumstances. People like this shouldn't be allowed to own a gun...for obvious reasons.

[opihimoimoi]

216. "All I wanted to do was use his friggen toilet and he SHOOTS me"

[DoNotRefill]

222. so how long should he have waited?

until the guy had suceeded in breaking down the door and was in the process of beating him to death?

How long should a woman about to be raped wait to defend herself? Does she actually have to wait until the crime is consummated before defending herself? Because then it's too late to prevent the rape, all she could do is end it, but she's already raped.

[Frangible]

219. A man's home is his castle

You use a battering ram, expect oil from above.

[Solomon]

220. One thing this thread is good for is finding out the true

paranoia of people. I had no idea! Moral of the story for me is next time I knock on anyone's door, I'm standing aside so as not to get shot.

[DoNotRefill]

221. If it looks like a duck,

walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is covered with feathers, odds are excellent that it's not a man looking to use the toilet.