Will Dems lose Jewish voters in 2004?

[Pontus]

http://www.thevillager.com/villager_22/whatshedoin.html

I think there are a lot of Jewish voters who will agree with Koch. And though they would back Lieberman, Joe is taking a lot of flak from fellow Dems and maybe this will alienate many Jews from the party. Any thoughts?

[kalian]

1. Oh...and what will they do...? Vote for Bush...?

:shrug:

[Blitz]

14. Yes, they will vote for Bush

Koch speaks for many, many liberal Jews. Much of the immigrant Jewish community that I am in contact with plans to vote for Bush, largely because of his support of Israel and the perception that the Democratic candidate will abandon Israel. Whether true or not, that is the perception.

Also, don't forget that "Jewish support" involves a whole lot more that Jewish votes (which, as it happens, are in a position to influence close contests in states like Florida). In terms of influence, both political and financial, the Jewish community has power far in excess of its numbers and cannot be compared, for example, to the Muslim community.

[Blitz]

16. Here is some light reading on the subject

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jun/06142003/nation_w/66136.asp
">Jewish leaders praise Bush support for Israel

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm/include/detail/storyid/567013.html">Bush Appeals to Jews and Muslims

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5751
">The Jews and President Bush

The Koch transformation:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/12/4/201412.shtml
">Israel's True Friends

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0803/koch_2003_08_27.php3
">Jews must reward Bush for stance on Israel

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/24/152256.shtml">The Resurgence of Anti-Semitism

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/12/23/134639.shtml">Correcting the Record: Why I'm Voting for Bush

This is, obviously, a small sampling. Jewish support (not just Jewish votes) will be very much up for grabs in the coming election. A lot will depend on who the Democratic nominee is and what his positions are.

[LeahMira]

39. They will if Democrats abandon Israel...

Much of the immigrant Jewish community that I am in contact with plans to vote for Bush, largely because of his support of Israel and the perception that the Democratic candidate will abandon Israel. Whether true or not, that is the perception.

The attachment to Israel is the one thing that all Jews share, whether Orthodox or secular. But I think you read it wrong. There are differences of opinion among Jews as to what needs to happen in Israel, but Bush has given far too little attention to the Israeli-Palestinian issues other than to encourage Sharon to kick Palestinians in the teeth. Jews in America don't want that, although they don't want terrorism either.

Bush has not supported initiatives for peace. He seems to think that war leads to peace, or that somehow if you can force people to do the" right thing" in the "American way" they will eventually see that they are happier than they were before. At this point, this Jewish person would rather Bush just kept his nose out of the whole thing and I'll wait until someone who actually respects human rights gets into the White House.

Also, don't forget that "Jewish support" involves a whole lot more that Jewish votes (which, as it happens, are in a position to influence close contests in states like Florida). In terms of influence, both political and financial, the Jewish community has power far in excess of its numbers and cannot be compared, for example, to the Muslim community.

What you see is not so much "Jewish power" as it is "Jewish organization." Networks of communication are established and maintained constantly, so that when a crisis happens there's no need to invent that network before anything can happen by way of change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I am jewish

not only am I a proud menmber of the ABB party.

I will also work for one of the campaigns once the move is over, and no it is NOT lieberman's

[jeter]

3. Many Jews are liberals

So we won't "lose" their vote totally. But also remember that Jewish Americans and Muslim Americans make up about the same population nationally. 3%. The GOP won the muslim vote in 2000. So whatever we lose among Jews we will gain among Muslims.

[kalian]

6. Oh geez....

and then the repukes will just love to point out those numbers...
and then claim that the dems "harbor terrorists" and/or
"terrorist sympathizers"... :eyes:

[wildwww2]

30. And then? Since Dim Son allowed 9-11 to happen they`ve been saying

that we Democrats are "terrorist sympathizers" You did not see what they did to Dashcle and Max Cleland? So what is new about that?
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Actually I think

the Demo party will get the Muslim voters who feel betrayed, and keep MOST of the Jewish vote.

Though what is worrisome is that some in the leadership are turning towards Bush for the same reason many Israelis turned to Likud

[elfwitch]

35. another Jew in the house....

I'm on the ABB bandwagon as well.
I think that too many people overestimate the Israel thing in a Jewish vote. Reform Jews support Israel but not to the detriment of their own country. I think that most Reform Jews are more concerned about how GW is turning the US in to a fascist police state. The fear of being dragged off by his version of the SS for believing in the wrong God completely overrides the support of Israel.

[liberalhistorian]

4. I don't think so, because a lot of

Jews don't support Lieberman (just because a candidate is a member of your religion doesn't mean you're gonna support him). And Israel wouldn't be a factor, either, because most of the Dem candidates remain strongly supportive of Israel, no matter what it does. Many Jews, in fact, feel that Lieberman is way too conservative, especially the more secular Jews.

[ButterflyBlood]

5. Koch is a joke

I read something by him on Israel, and while most American Jews are rather supportive of Israel, they aren't in the way he did in his bullshit, where he basically said he was boycotting anyone who ever made any criticism of Israel at all and accused them of being anti-Semetic, and encouraged the Freeperish France boycott. Fuck him.

The polls have shown Bush losing the Jewish vote consistentely.

[adamrsilva]

8. Yes, but we'll gain Muslim voters

So it doesn't really matter. I say let them go.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

11. say what? "let them go"...are you serious???....go away

[Pontus]

32. You are joking, aren't you?

[Turtleboy22]

9. The vast majority

of Jews will still vote for the Dem candidate, no matter who it is (except for Sharpton, ;) ).

However, the younger generation isn't as strongly loyal Dem as the older FDR New Deal generation, which is dying out.

So will the Dems lose SOME Jewish votes, i.e. will they get a lower percentage of jews in 2004 than they did in 2000?

Yes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Oh after the second

Great Depresion the young ones will come back

And yes we are in for a second Great Depresion

[w4rma]

10. Koch is a fruitcake, a nut. He's too erratic to court, IMHO.

Lieberman is taking flack because he's shooting flack at the Democratic base and the other Democratic candidates who many parts of the Democratic base support.

And neither of these situations have anything to do with their religion. For instance, Dean is widely popular and his wife and children are Jewish and the co-chairman of Dean's campaign, Steve Grossman, was the previous chairman of AIPAC.

[MysticMind]

13. I know of Jews that trust Arafat...

And hate Israel. I'm betting there are Jews who would support far left candidates. Howevere most Jews wouldn't support someone far enough left to oppose Israel.

[Must_B_Free]

15. Bush truly represents greater insecurity in Israel

Bush's hardline approach represents war and conflict. The premise of a "need for security" is an institutional perpetuation of aparthied. Policy should be solving the "needs for security".

Clinton, on the other hand almost had peace and was only foiled by Richard Perle. So in evidence of the last decade, how can one pretend to argue that Bush makes jews feel safer?

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. In a word, yes

One does not have to spend too long in the I/P dungeon to see the distaste that many on the left hold for Israel. The thing is, it still remains the homeland for the Jewish people and has widespread support as such in the Jewish community. After a while, that anti-Israel bias will continue to take a toll.

[Scurrilous]

19. I spend time in I/P...

..and have yet to see this 'distaste that many on the left hold for Israel.' Is there another I/P forum that I've somehow overlooked?

[kalian]

20. Its a quick generalization....

classic attack against the left. They even question your "leftness"
just because you doubt Sharon's policies. Pretty sad IMHO.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Go ahead and attack policies

That is what we all do. But to say that Israel should not exist as it currently does attacks its right to exist. THAT is part of what happens in I/P -- the demonization of Israel which exists in a sea of nations that have already ethnically cleansed themselves of Jews.

[Forkboy]

25. I visit I/P

and the distaste many of "my fellow progressives" hold for anything Palestinian or Arab is just as noticable,though maybe Muddle doesn't see it that way.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Well, there are multiple I/P posters who oppose Israel's existence

How is that for starters?

[sendero]

18. Jewish people...

... are not a voting bloc.

[Blitz]

22. They were

but you're right. Not anymore.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. On Israel they might be

And if we abandon Israel as some here wish, then we might lose them ALL.

[Darranar]

21. No, they won't...

I don't see what Bush has done in the past four years that would attract Jewish voters.

Jews are not all Likudniks, and those that are probably voted for Bush in 2000.

[HereSince1628]

23. Dems have no hope of attracting Likud party supporters...

[fujiyama]

24. I hate the idea...

of viewing ethnic/religious/racial groups as blocs and homogenous globs. I don't like the idea of viewing different groups as chess pieces, where you trade one group (Jews) for another group (Muslims).

Our agenda has to be ALL INCLUSIVE.

While I understand this board is a very big tent and I find the discussions very engaging (including some of the fruitcake conspiracy threads), we must always keep in mind that this board is hardly represenative of views and opinions of the general public.

I think the issue of Israel should be handled very carefully (I know this will piss some off) because it's so sensitive. I would stick to a Clinton type response, and a policy that makes sense, which is that the US shares a special relationship with Israel, but that does not mean we cannot understand the plight of the Palestinians. It may not satisfy everyone but I don't believe that not supporting Israel at all or being "Anti Israel" would be beneficial at all (monetarilly, as a matter of policy, and morally as well).

Koch is obviously an idiot, and any person that could endorse an ass like D'Amoto (WTF) can hardly be considered a democrat. He joins the group of so called democrats like Koch and Miller, who have a "D" next to their name for reasons I don't know of. Good riddance. However, does that mean I believe we should completely disregard what they have to say? No, because it is possible, even those views we should find frustratingly wrong, don't have any valid criticism. There are many on fringe of the party like Miller and Koch (Jewish and non Jewish), who are letting go over one reason -- National Security. It is very unlikely, that Dean will keep these voters in the party. I agree we can't get the votes of Likudniks, but it would be foolish to believe that those leaving the party are in reality all closet neo cons or likudniks.

Dean's problem is that he chooses his initial words very poorly, and then when backtracking and recanting, he swings to the exact opposite. It seems that coverage of many of his missteps, gaffes, and foot in the mouth statements, have died out shortly in terms of media coverage, but that is only for now. Many of his statements will very likely come back to haunt him in the general election.

Bush is unable to put coherent sentences together without the aid of advisors, speechwriters, and Carl Rove. I also believe Howard Dean is intelligent, and a man of integrity. However, one side has the media, money, and the ability to manipulate the public's feelings over the greatest terrorist attack on American soil.

We cannot disregard the fear that exists in this nation (some real and valid, others whipped up by this administration). We must be able to address these concerns about the war on terrorism -- What it is to the future of this nation and the world, why it has been improperly executed, and why it is still way to early to tell whether capturing Saddam (while is good news) really makes us safer and why the war wasn't necessarily worth it and why ths one nation shouldn't have been the sole focus of the WoT. I happen to think Dean was right about this and other things as well (the US should play a more balanced role in the middle east..us not being signifantly safer after capturing Saddam and the US can ply a more, etc.). It's just a matter of semantics. I don't like how he words these things and I think they can be misinterpreted very easilly by the majority of Americans.

[Blitz]

31. "any person that could endorse . . ."

". . . an ass like D'Amoto (WTF) can hardly be considered a democrat."

You don't consider Al Sharpton a Democrat?

[Obamarama]

26. I am Jewish and I will NEVER vote Republican....

Jewish Republicans are of much of an oxymoron to me as gay Republicans and black Republicans.

The GOP is a country club in which we will never be welcome.

My my hand wither and fall off should it ever cast a vote for a Republican.

[Pontus]

34. Actually I know many Jewish Republicans.

Please don't overgeneralize or we will lose the Jewish vote.

[BurtWorm]

33. Koch makes the same stupid mistake anti-Semites do

assuming the Jewish vote is more monolithic than it really is. This is an astounding mistake for a politician from New York to make!

[Blitz]

37. Where did Koch assume that?

A quote and a link, please.

[BurtWorm]

38. Sorry. My error. I thought Koch had made a statement about

Jews leaving the party en masse. Now I realize it was the original poster.

[_Jumper_]

36. No

I think the vast majority of Jews voted based on the interests of their nation, America. Blond-haired blue-eyed people aren't the only ones who vote based on American issues. :eyes:

[Ficus]

40. Zogby's take on it

http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=6632

Some Jewish and Muslim voters appear to be abandoning their past party affiliations and fewer evangelical Christians may go to the polls, adding to the volatility of the race.

The Bush administration's strategy to lure Jewish voters away from the Democratic Party seems to be working, said pollsters and Jewish leaders, who point to President Bush's support for Israel as one of the reasons for the shift.

Muslims, many of whom supported the president overwhelmingly in 2000, now are working to defeat him. Driven by outrage over what they see as a clampdown on their civil rights and by opposition to U.S. policy in the Middle East, Muslims across the country are holding registration drives, hoping to mobilize 1 million voters to try to oust Bush....

read this story. I don't know if the Jewish vote is "monolithic" but Bush's strong support of Israel certainly does work in their favor. I suspect the story is right as well in reference to Arab and Muslim voters voting Democratic.