Definition of Middle Class?

[auburnblu]

Seems like Dean is now suggesting a middle class tax cut. Someone on here posted yesterday that they thought there were more poor people in the U.S. than middle class. I think $30,000 per year for a single person in New York City would probably be a low standard of living, but probably would allow for a decent quality of life in say Columbus Georgia.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

1. $30,000 a year in NYC is abject poverty

and you wouldn't be able to afford rent unless you moved to an outer borough. Same in Boston. My sister makes $40K here and has two roommates.

[LincolnMcGrath]

3. Same with Orlando

And the wingers went nuts when they tried to pass 8per hour living wage for city workers.

Same reason many contruction jobs have trouble manning up. Road warriors need to pay for a motel and their family at home. Per Diems are rare in the construction trades.

[lcordero]

2. what middle class?

Does the Middle Class even exist?
If a person isn't in debt, can pay their food bill, can afford to pay their car insurance, can afford to pay their own (or their family's)medical care, pay rent or mortgage, and still have something left over, and not have any worries about losing their job then they are middle class.
Again, what Middle Class?

[Woodstock]

7. actually no - MANY middle class people are in debt

that's why wise econmists are concerned

[lcordero]

10. Debt makes a person an indentured servant

whether they like it or not. An indentured servant is not "middle class". He or she is poor, just like the rest of us.

[Woodstock]

11. Most people use income as a measurement

It's a stretch to say a person making $100,000 a year who owes $5,000 on his credit card is "poor."

[abelenkpe]

23. agreed

that's why I never buy anything unless I can pay for it with cash. Oh, I have credit cards and credit, but I've never been comfortable with the idea of being owned by my possessions. So I only purchase what I can afford. Middle class? Is that really all one hopes for? I want to be free. Having to work everyday, even at an enjoyable job, is still an obligation one cannot survive without. Isn't that a form of slavery? Ultimately I would like to own (and I mean own outright) property, like an apartment building or land somewhere that would bring in money. Then I wouldn't need to work for someone else in order to afford basic daily survival. Don't we all deserve the chance to be free? What is all the hard work for if we can never leave it? Or spend any time pursuing our own dreams?

[doc03]

20. They are all in China now working for $1 a day!

[Name removed]

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[AP]

5. Anyone who, if you lost your job, would be in serious trouble in 2 months.

It's that kind of measure. It's not just salary. It's whether you work for a living, have rich parents who will help you out, employability, your debt load, etc. etc.

[Nikia]

9. What do you mean by serious trouble?

Many of us do not have significant savings. What I do have that distinguishes from some of our poorer friends is credit. We have enough credit card credit to last us half the year or more if we need it. After finally almost paying off our credit cards, we have found that actually using our available credit could easily put us into serious trouble, especially if we were uncertain about our future earnings.

[AP]

12. You'd become working poor or unemployed, and lose your assets,

like your house and car.

[Beaker]

14. many people consider the available balance on their credit cards-

to be their savings.

[Nikia]

6. Everyone thinks they are middle class

If they have an alright place to live, a car, and most of the modern appliances/toys, but don't think of themselves as rich, people think of themselves as middle class. My mother has always said that we were middle class both while getting food stamps and belonging to the more expensive country club in my home area. I suppose that there might be social issues involved in calling oneself middle class.
I'm not sure what middle income is. As far as the border between poor and middle class, I would say it involves living in a safe, decent home, having a reliable car, and being able to buy most things that the average person would actually eat at the grocery store. Depending on where one lives, the income necessary for this would range from $20,000-??? in urban areas with high housing costs.

[Woodstock]

8. Lots of techies are under some sad illusions

Good question. Lots of 100K techies out there think Bush's policies benefit them, but he's looking after fatter cats than them - these guys are just financing the operation.

[abelenkpe]

21. I couldn't agree more

and trying to convince them otherwise is a completely futile exercise.

[BiggJawn]

13. I used to fall into that trap.

No More.
Somebody mentioned $30,000 as being a "middle class" income.
I make $38,000, my girlfriend makes $29,000.
She owns her house (less than 5 kilobuck left owed) has a car and mini-pick-up both paid for (they better be! they're both old enough to VOTE!)and can barely make it.
Property taxes went up here. Her's DOUBLED...Her car has 189,000 miles on it (Honda. go figure) but it's rusting out and she doesn't think she can afford a new car. Her gas bill this month was $200.

she struggles. I don't consider her "middle class"

I had to file bankruptcy 4 years ago to "get away" from a house I hadn't lived in in 2 years, but could not find a buyer for. Presently, I'm paying over HALF my take-home pay for shelter and transport (I have a 2-y-o Ford)

I catalogued all this in another "class" thread so I won't repeat myself, but all I can say is if my GF and I are "middle class", then the middle class is is trouble past it's ass.

We're POOR. OK, maybe we're "getting by", as long as neither of us becomes seriously ill, or the cars don't pack it in, or something happens with her plumbing or electric that i can' fix, or my landlord doesn't raise the rent, or State Farm doesn't raise my insurance.......

But we're damn sure NOT "getting ahead"...

WHAT fucking "American Dream"? My Dad had it a hell of a lot better than me.

[LauraT28]

15. HA HA HA HA

30K almost anywhere sucks. I've lived in Florida (West Palm Beach), Missouri (small town), California (bay area),and now Alaska. 30K is just barely enough to have a $700 a month mortgage, $400 car payment, and keep food and utilities on. No big vacations to the Bahamas on that lofty salary! Oh... that's $14.42 an hour by the way.

Laura

[BiggJawn]

16. Must only eat every other day and have heat on alternate Thursdays...

If you're spending $700 on a roof and $400 on wheels.

Honestly, 30 kilobucks wouldn't leave you anything for food after making that mortgage, car payment, and utilities in some place like Indianapolis.

[LauraT28]

17. Just an example....

But that's a pretty typical new car payment, and say $125K house payment... not including all the fun extras like insurance and taxes.... 30k is nothing.

[BiggJawn]

25. That's' what I'm saying, 30 kilobucks won't buy that.

$30,000 gives you what, $380 a week take-home pay?
And your car and house cost you $1100 a month?
And that leaves you $105 a week for utilities, car insurance, medical co-pays, FOOD, some new clothes once-a-while so your naughty bits don't show at work.....God help you if you have a kid or two....

Can't be done, can it?

[lovedems]

18. I think we use to be middle class

but it is all comparable on mortgage, kids, etc. We have 4 kids and I am a stay at home mom. My husband was working for the state of Illinois making good money. He lost his job because of budget cuts. In the last 6 months we have lost our health insurance and his income. Trying to pay a mortgage and our disgustingly outrageous natural gas bills with unemployment compensation doesn't leave much left over for groceries and other bills. We are slowly cashing out our retirement plans to get by. My husband would gladly go back to work IF THERE WERE ANY JOBS (he is a network admin.) Under this administration, we are slowly leaving the middle class. At least it feels that way.

[abelenkpe]

24. yikes!

I hope you or your husband can find a good job soon.

[nancyharris]

19. At one time

the middle class was looked at as the social group between the working class (those engaged in manual labor) and the nobility (those whose wealth and title is inherited). It was comprised of professionals (business, academic and public service). Today’s common use generally refers to anyone not in abject poverty or luxurious wealth.

According to the US Census Bureau the middle-fifth household income range in 2001 was between $53,000 and $83,000

[jsw_81]

22. $30,000 income in NYC=poverty

You would literally be on the streets.

[JanMichael]

26. How about this: If you stop working your world collapes...

...then you're "Middle Class".

Or better yet go to the BLS and look up average salaries by profession.

Eliminate anyone under the official Poverty Line, maybe tack on 10-15k for luck, and you end up with something between $35,000 to $110,000 for all professions including Physicians.

Of course the number of people in the family matters as well as the region they live in.

What's staggering is the realization that the vast majority of Americans live within a 3-8x income ratio.

It's that top 2%, no the top 1%, that are really screwing us. They exist outside of the norm.