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The bottom line in health care, taxpayer’s money and conservative illogic.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:38 PM
Original message
The bottom line in health care, taxpayer’s money and conservative illogic.
I love my husband’s clinical nurse. She is a dear sweet woman, a true nursing professional and alas also a rabid Republican. She believes without a doubt that everyone should pull themselves up by the bootstraps and if they have to work two or three jobs to do it then they should. No one should be looking for handouts. She is adamantly against welfare.

Yet, she seems unaware that her salary comes mostly from taxpayer’s money. How? Well she’s the head nurse at our local dialysis clinic. You see if you have end stage renal disease very few private health care plans provide coverage, so the burden falls on Medicare to provide care for these patients who need dialysis, transplants and all the other clinical care involved in these diseases.

Medicare covers most patients with end stage renal disease no matter what their age is and very few are elderly. Most are people in the prime of life when struck with kidney failure. Without dialysis they have a death sentence. With dialysis, they can lead productive lives. My husband’s care exceeds $3,000 a month, something we couldn’t manage on our income without help. No private insurance company or HMO wants to pay for this. Without a government program, most of these people would die from lack of medical care even though it is available because the cost is beyond the reach of the average wage earner.

Since Medicare pays only 80%, we must come up with the other 20%. We do this with a Medigap private policy, but he would never be insured if laws hadn’t been passed preventing private insurers from discriminating against insuring those with pre-existing conditions. So you see again we all have to rely on the government to get the care he needs and our health care providers the payments for services they need. Yet, this fact is lost on this nurse.

Another thing that people, who are against entitlements, are unaware of, is that the health insurance industry, by cherry picking the healthy in providing coverage, leaves the burden of those with diseases like my husband’s to government plans that many times don’t offer adequate coverage. As things stand now, politicians are eroding the funding even more in order to pay for wars and enrich the coffers of corporations. My husband’s nurse knows that it is the taxpayer who funds these programs and yet seems unwilling to admit that her wages comes from that money and if the spigot is turned off, she will be out of a job.

Sure, she probably will get another job, maybe one that doesn’t pay so well, because she will be competing with all those other nurses who have been put out of work because Medicare has been privatized and money will be diverted to profits, not health care. Yet for some strange reason, otherwise intelligent people can’t admit that they too should benefit from their tax dollars.

They effectively go through life blindfolded, not seeing that they are on borrowed affluence, until it is too late. Many don’t want to know that their wages are paid for by taxpayers either directly or indirectly.
I once had to point out to my proud Republican father, that if the government hadn’t provided his company with all kinds of subsidies, he wouldn’t have a job because the company would fold, which is exactly what happened once the product wasn’t needed anymore, because it had been replaced with a space age improved version.
Yet, it always amazes me that those who are on the government payroll, like policemen, firemen, and the military are the most rabid Republicans around.

Also, what about welfare? Many children, whose parents can’t get it, must go without a health plan. Are the children expected to go get jobs so they can get health benefits, food and a roof over their heads? What about the disabled and the elderly, should they get jobs? Even those who want jobs, can’t find many employers who will hire them. A few social programs like health care, day care and subsidized rent would go a long way to pulling a lot of these people into the mainstream, yet conservatives feel that for some reason they have their hand out looking for freebies.

Now what about those old people, who need some free pills? Were they not the soldiers, mothers, workers, teachers and healers of former generations, who now need a helping hand? Why are they accused of having their hand out? Do they not deserve to live their lives normally and not die from lack of medicine, food, or heat after all they have contributed to society? Why did their needed prescription drug money go to the pharmaceutical industry and privatized HMO coverage instead of directly to them as they need it?

The problem with conservative logic is that they don’t carry their thinking all the way through to the logical conclusion. They don’t understand that disasters, accidents and other unexpected twists of fate happen, and the ordinary working class person is ill-equipped to handle these emergencies alone, no matter how hard working they are. They also don’t seem to realize that when they grow old, they will be sick a good part of their golden years and they will need health and other types of care until they have the final illness that causes them to die. They will be too ill to work through these times. No one will want to hire them either.

Also, the children of these elderly seem to not be aware of the fact that if there are no safety net programs for grandma and grandpa not to mention mom and dad in the future, they will have to take on the full burden of taking care of these relatives themselves, and usually this comes at a time when families are trying to send children to college and generally helping to give them a start in life when they marry and have the first grandchild.

So what does it take to change conservative logic into common sense logic? It’s usually the day that something awful happens and they watch everything they had worked for evaporate before their eyes. I have never seen a Republican refuse to line up for government relief funds at times of disasters like earthquakes and fires. So why do they renege it if their tax dollars are spent on those who need the relief of health and welfare programs instead of making a lot of rich corporations and their stockholders richer? They may think their tax money is wasted on helping the poor, the sick, the disabled, yet when it’s their turn they are up at the government relief counter like everyone else.

So how do we convince them that it’s okay to help out your fellow man when he’s in need and that you too will have your turn at the table when the time comes? How do you tell him charity doesn’t have to be through a church, but that the government can effectively distribute help and are better equipped to get the dollars to those who need them without any corporate or religious middle man needed. How do we break the myth of fat, lazy, people looking for a handout? Our social systems are reaching a crucial breaking point now and we have to fix it by convincing people like my husband’s nurse that entitlement programs are not evil and are an efficient method of helping everyone in society.

All societies have functioned more or less on social principles. The fit and able do most of the work, caring for the children and elderly. They share their bounty as well as their misfortunes. We have gotten to a stage in civilization that there should be no reason every person on the face of this earth doesn’t have his basic needs met. It will always be the population in the middle of their lives that provide for the young, the old, and the disabled. They provide for their own children, but also the generation who raised them. When it is their turn those children will provide for them, or so that’s how our society should work.




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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why do you hate America? Why are you trying to start class warfare?
What's good for corporations is good for America.
Go back to your appliances of convenience in the kitchen and watch soaps...there is no problem here.

You make way too much sense, of course...this is well done.
Even W says that free societies provide health care for all citizens...so either he lied, or we don't live in a free society.
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. ...
"Even W says that free societies provide health care for all citizens"

I want this quote...when did you hear it?
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've talked to pubs about this
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 12:59 PM by leftyandproud
Believe it or not, it is NOT that they want people like your husband to die. They believe these people should be taken care of, but they have completely different view of HOW to accomplish this. As impossible as this sounds to us, and regardless of how much it goes against our basic instincts, THEY believe in the private sector as a problem solver FAR MORE than we believe in government as a problem solver!! They have much more faith in the Godly power of "the market" than we have. It really is an extreme, extreme conflict of visions...a clash in views of how the world works and how people react to certain incentives. They believe if government burdens were reduced...if tax rates were reduced 90% across the board, charity would explode...volunteer organizations would eplode with donations...people wouldn't feel that they have "done their part" by paying into all the mandatory welfare programs as they do today, and would be more likely to donate to charity or personally care for their elder family members. This is the general idea. They have some magical faith that people will do the right thing with their money if the government just left them alone. I disagree, and think if this were to happen, people would simply hoard their extra cash and wouldn't use it for the right purposes...Most of them would be selfish and wouldn't help those in need...they would not increase charity donations..They would just buy more STUFF. This is why we must make certain things involuntary...certain programs should be funded with payroll taxes to ensure society as a whole is benefited. It's just a fundamental disagreement. I've spoken to many about this...and regardless of how WRONG the other side's views are (and how catostrophic we think they may be), ultimately it is NOT a question of ends, but of means to an end. It's about the PROCESS by which we get to the common result...This is where the big disputes are. Does this make sense?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, this is true and when you point out situations and
places where their vision is in place, like the state of Idaho, you find that the Republican system of hodge podge charities and for profit health care industries, doesn't work. Why do people in Idaho go out into the woods to die when they are no longer able to afford medical care? Actually, Idaho and surrounding Repiglican cultural issues would take a whole other post. When you point out that Medicare, as underfunded as it is, works really well, with a maximum overhead of 3% administrative costs, they refuse to see it.
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Idaho..
still has all of the federal programs...The freeps won't be happy until the entire welfare system is defunded and the money returned to the communities and individual taxpayers...Only then will we see this supposed "miracle of the market"
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Also a lot of people don't realize that the 7.5%
deducted from the first $80,000 they earn a year plus the 7.5% that their employer adds is less than what it would cost them to care for one parent or grandparent, let alone two of them. So it really is a better deal for looking after the family, and what would happen if their parents outlive them, who will look after them?
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I'd love to conduct a little experiement,
or big experiment as it were. If the "free market" is the crown jewel to konservatives, let's set one up. Let's take a state like Idaho and transform it into a free market utopia. No OSHA regs, no minimum wage, no government interference whatsoever.
BUT on the flip side there would be NO government assistance at all to person or business. Make the reich-wingers put their $$ where their mouth is.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Well, except for a few federal programs hanging in there,
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 07:13 PM by Cleita
it's almost there. Do you know that a couple of years ago the federal government gave Idaho some money to fix their state highways because they had become so dangerous from neglect that interstate truckers were complaining loudly.
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. *ahem*
they are actually trying this...

http://www.freestateproject.org
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I think your claim...
...that the same desired ends are universally shared is unfounded. I think that many a conservative mind feels "why should I pay" and have no problem letting the "cannon fodder" (GHWB) and "useless eaters" (Kissinger) simply die. THAT is the clash of world views, not simply the means.


(For attributions, google "cannon fodder Bush" and "useless eaters Kissinger".)
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. But when they can't make it, they want government help.
My father (retired surgeon) is a rabid Republican and "made it on his own". Actually he did work his way all through undergraduate and medical school.

However, he made his living in an industrial town where all his patients were union employees and had health care insurance that paid for their medical care. Otherwise, they couldn't have afforded it.

So, after living off the largess of labor unions, he hates unions. Go figure.

I have an uncle who is a West Point grad, retired military, with a second career at a defense contractor. Every single penny of education or money he received in his adult life came from the taxpayer - every single penny!

So, after living off the government (taxpayer) dole his entire life, he thinks government shouldn't provide anything for other people.

They both get really angry when I refer to Dad as "living off the labor unions" and my uncle as "living off the taxpayer", but Dammit, it's the truth.
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. this makes a lot of sense.
I have always said that corporate welfare does not improve the economy. Big profits for the most part only mean fatter CEO paychecks. The old axiom of the 'right' to 'let big business police itself' is a joke. We have seen the result of winking at corporate greed. The list grows every day: MCI, Enron, Tyco, Adelphia, Arthur Anderson.. The result is millions laid off, thousands who have lost life savings, so that the very few who caused the losses can become very, very rich.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. And so it goes:
"Democrats are fearful of being branded "class warriors" in a war the other side started and is determined to win. I don't get why conceding your opponent's premises and fighting on his turf isn't the sure-fire prescription for irrelevance and ultimately obsolescence." -Bill Moyers
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The man has a way with words, doesn't he?
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 07:04 PM by redqueen
We're already at irrelevance... next stop obsolescence.

on edit: IF we don't change our ways. We still can. Will we?
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. "We still can. Will we?"
Judging by all the "centrists" right here on this forum, I would say...

...........probably not.........

Kanary
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
16. And what will the children do?
What will the children do? The new Medicare prescription drug plan has so many holes in it, it's ridiculous. It's connected to state programs and it's a tangled web we're gonna weave. They are trying to fix something that really isn't broken. The broken--the children of the future paying off that debt. I do believe that if Bush is elected that all social programs will be cut completely out. There again, what about the children? There are 1 million homeless children in our country at the moment. What happened to America and what happened to people that care?
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hi ngGale!
Welcome to D.U.!

:hi: :hi: :hi:

:toast:

I hear you completely. I'll be one of those cut. It's very difficult knowing that hardly anyone will even care.

What happened? The US lost it's soul.

Kanary
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