Question about reparations -

[Madrone]

Yes, out government should pay reparations to black americans - or no, our government should not?

I've been thinking about this all morning. I just got a new Dead Prez cd and listened to it earlier. For those of you that haven't heard of Dead Prez - they are a political, underground rap group. (I'm one weird pushing 32 year old white chick, I know)

Anyway, as I was listening to the cd I was checking out the paper insert in the case. Printed on the inside is this exact message:

**All yall wannabe down white people must support and demand reparations from your government for the stolen wealth, power, resources, and freedom of the black, brown, and red people!**

This got me thinking about this subject. I guess I would say I'm not firmly settled on for or against, and I'd like DUers input on this. I'd especially like to know what black DUers think. I'm not at a place in my life currently where I have any black friends to ask. (I'm not currently living in a mecca of diversity)

I guess my general feeling on the subject is that I'm against it. I fully appreciate the struggle of black people in this country. Our history of slavery and the snatching of africans from their homeland sickens me. I find it especially disgusting that the true nature of slavery and the treatment of blacks is glossed over (if discussed at all) in schools. I believe that is an important part of our history we must face, and understand. Every time I've heard a white person utter the words "they can go back to africa if they don't like it" I am appalled at the ignorance behind such a statement. I'm damned near 100% German in heritage, but no one alive in my family has ever been to Germany. No one would ever think of telling me to "go back to Germany" - I'm an AMERICAN, damnit.

That said - I don't think reparations now are the answer. Because no one alive now dealt with slavery, it just doesn't seem to me like a check from the government to all black people is what it takes to wipe the slavery slate clean. I think that money could be better spent on better education (instead of the glossed over crap they feed in schools now) to the true nature of slavery and its effects, college grants for any black american that wants to go to school, grants to start businesses, cleaning up neighborhoods, providing people someplace better to live than the "projects" - ect.

I really hope this doesn't start a flame fest - please don't allow it to degenerate into one. I'm looking for honest, respectful discussion about this issue. I don't know if I was able to express myself as well as I would have liked to above - I'm hoping my intent is understood.

Discuss.

[skooooo]

1. what about women?

i just don't think it's practical, and it ain't gonna happen.

[Madrone]

4. You can't equate women's struggles in America

with what black people of both sexes went through. There's NO comparison.

If I had to choose between going back in time to the 1800's as a woman or a black person, I certainly wouldn't pick being black.

Women's struggles is another subject entirely. It's apples and oranges.

[skooooo]

18. You know...

...I just don't get into discussions like this because they don't seem to go anywhere.

[bluestateguy]

2. Reparations

The only people who should pay reparations are those whose families are still benefitting from slavery. That is, wealthy families who owned slaves or traded in slaves, and only if they are still wealthy.

You're going to have a hard time convincing a taxi cab driver who makes $25,000 a year that he should pay more in taxes for something that happened 150 years ago.

Neither, I nor any of my relatives were here until 1910, so I just can't justify being made to pay reparations for something that I was not a part of.

[JohnKleeb]

10. I like that idea Bluestate

If they are still benefitting from the slave trade but if they are poor now, I think they shouldnt have to and people whos family werent here shouldnt have to pay period, we suffered too mostly, my grandparents were called hunkies, and all my grandparents probably experienced anti Catholic prejudiced.

[NightTrain]

3. Perhaps instead of making direct payments to individual citizens...

...the government could set up a general fund to be used specifically for the needs of the African-American community.

But I definitely think we have an obligation to make reparations for slavery, no matter how long ago it was abolished. Despite the considerable progress made in the 20th century, America still has a lo-o-o-ong way to go as far as race relations are concerned. And reparations for slavery are a necessary step, IMHO.

[strategery blunder]

5. I would support reparations for Jim Crow

and for minority groups who lost economic opportunities as a result of segregation.

However, slavery is a bit too far back to be paying reparations for as no one who suffered through it (in this country anyway) is still alive.

[leftistagitator]

14. Who would pay for those reparations?

Jim Crow was mainly a set of state laws and business policies that supported those laws, but the federal courts did support it for a long time. Should businesses, states, or the federal government, (or all three), pay reparations?

[strategery blunder]

27. I would say all three

However, businesses that did not exist during the Jim Crow era, or businesses that could prove they were integrated at the time, should be exempt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. i think reparations are not such a great idea

i think building black neighbourhoods in a constructive manner is...better education...prenatal care...quality health care ...etc.

[Nikia]

7. Well, they were promised

I forget how many acres a freed slave was suppose to get along with a mule. That never happened. Several generations have passed so I don't know if direct payments should be given or not to descendants of slaves. Having a more collective program such as improvement of black schools could be good, but could also be problematic.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. I want reperations from the Italian government

because the Romans oppressed and enslaved my ancestors.

[RoyGBiv]

9. No, but with a caveat

I've discussed this subject with others, largely historians, a great deal. It's a running subject of debate among some of my acquaintances, and I think I'm correct in saying that except for the most entrenched minds, it's not an issue that lends itself to firm pronouncements of "yes" or "no." There's a lot of in-between on this, but those afore mentioned entrenched minds at the polar ends of the issue tend to capture the debate for themselves and control it. I find no utility in participating in that.

I don't think I have the mental energy right this second to get into my full thoughts on the matter, but I thought I'd summarize where I stand at the moment and give some brief bit of an explanation how I get there.

If reparations means cash payments, then no, I am firmly against it. There are numerous reasons, but high among them is the impossibility of arriving at a concrete number of what the stolen labor is worth. As a corollary to this, who gets the payments? Does a person with black skin who moved to the United States in the last ten years get a share? If not, then what is the standard for receiving a payment. The most commonly held opinion on this is that one would have to prove ancestry, and as I am all too aware from my efforts to help some of my African-American friends find their ancestors, doing this prior to 1865 is sometimes literally impossible. Slave owners didn't keep good records of this variety, and most of the knowledge we have of who, today, is the descendant of a slave is based on stories handed down through generations. This is not said to indicate that I believe these stories to be false, rather that the potential for fraud is excessive.

The other big reason for my not supporting the idea of cash payments is that this assumes, or at least implies, a dangerous paradigm. In the event cash payments were made, the strong associated assumption would that those payments would be the end of it. The United States stole from you; here's your compensation; now we're done. This is wrong-headed.

But, there are other ways to provide compensation besides cash disbursements: an active, clearly defined affirmative action type program, financial assistance to the perpetually poor, free job training, etc. And that's why I say "no, with a caveat." The United States as a nation owes something to those who have been marginalized by both the slave system and the century of ongoing racial oppression that has come since. But, what it owes is beyond what can be defined by dollars.

I'll now go find my flame suit and come back later.

[Madrone]

13. I mostly agree with you -

Although I think assistance to the perpetually poor, etc doesn't really do it - that should be a GIVEN, and is certainly not exclusive to black people.


I definitely agree with this statement:

"In the event cash payments were made, the strong associated assumption would that those payments would be the end of it. The United States stole from you; here's your compensation; now we're done. This is wrong-headed."

I find that distasteful, and I also think that would be the overall feeling behind it.

I still think education about that portion of our history is soooo important. There are very few (if any) black people that don't understand the horror and oppression of their enslaved ancestors, but I don't think there are many white americans that understand or appreciate it. I've often said that the book Roots, for example, should be REQUIRED reading for all highschool students. I don't understand why it's not, actually.

[ant]

11. a moral if not legal obligation

People tend to think of slavery as so long ago, but really it wasn't. There are people alive today who knew their former slave ancestors. (If you visit the voices of slaves website - http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/vfshtml/ - you'll note that the interviews took place up to 1975.) If you consider the effects of Jim Crow, it was even more recent. We're talking maybe three or four generations here, not a lot.

Slavery had some very serious long term economic and social consequences that we - all of us, black and white, because we are all part of the same society - are still dealing with.

Native Americans got their reparations. So did the Japanese. So did Jewish people. What blacks went through was so much worse, and it went on for so much longer, that I can't understand why they are the only group still being denied justice. And in fact, some of the early free men were given reparations, but they were quickly taken away again. There's a great history on the subject here: http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1994/4/94.04.01.x.html

And that's what it's about, I think - justice. Punishing murderers doesn't bring back the dead, but we still do it. Reparations aren't going to undo what happened, but they will be a sign that this country recognizes the great harm it did and is willing to stand up and right that wrong. It doesn't matter that none of us were directly involved - our government was - and whatever justification and rationalizations people want to offer for avoiding this responsibility now appear to me to simply add insult to injury.

Implementation is a matter of debate, and I'm not familiar enough with the subject to have an opinion on this point. Whether we're talking checks or serious community investments, I don't think it matters. The concept of reparations by itself is valid.

[Madrone]

15. Thank you for your input.

Do you believe every black american should recieve a check from the government? If so, for how much? If not - how should reparations be made?

[Deja Q]

12. Not to mention other white people...

Not all whites were in the exploitation of other colors. Worse, some whites even exploit their own.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

16. A real owning up to the fact that Blacks have been trampled on for 400yrs+

is due.

Monetary reparations are a joke.

I think an apology for evil and genocide is due.

I am sorry!

Malcolm X spoke of this eloquently. Everyone should read Mr. Shabazz's autobiography - it will open your eyes no matter who you are.

[Madrone]

19. Don't be sorry!

Your opinion is very valuable, I think.

I have a MalcomX book around somewhere, but I haven't read it yet. Not sure if it's his autobiography, or just a biography. I collect books faster than I can read them - so I haven't gotten to that one yet. Thanks for putting it in the forefront of my mind, however. I will make it a point to find it and move that one up to next on my list.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. It really changed the way I look at, not only this country, but the world

It's one of the most powerful things I've ever read!

[Madrone]

26. That's how I felt about Roots.

As well as the other book Haley wrote about the maternal side of his family, Queenie.

Two of the saddest and most humbling books I've ever read.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

28. You know Haley was the writer for Malcolm's autobiography?

Malcolm dictated it to him. It took a while for Shabazz to trust Haley but it became a very fruitful friendship

[Madrone]

32. I knew Haley wrote a Malcom X book -

But I didn't know Malcom dictated his "auto" biography to him. Or, if I knew ( and it seems odd to me I wouldn't based on all the reading I HAVE done) I've since forgotten.

Actually - you got me curious and I just went in search of my book to see if it was Haley's that I have. It's not - I have "Malcom X: The Man and His Times" - published 1969.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

35. Who's the author?

Haven't heard of that one

[Madrone]

37. You know, I was trying to figure that out -

so I could mention it in the other post. *L*

The cover says John Henrik Clarke -

The cover page says "Edited, with an introduction and commentary, by John Henrik Clarke - Assisted by A. Peter Bailey and Earl Grant

The contents seem to suggest numerous authors - each that have known Malcom and wrote an essay about his life.

It's divided into 6 parts - with each part containing essays in relation to the heading.

The 6 parts are:

Part I - Malcom X, The Man in Retrospect

Part II - Malcom X at Close Range - Personal Views

Part III - Dialogues with Malcom X

Part IV - Malcom X Abroad

Part V - Malcom X In His Own Words

Part VI - Appendix

[skooooo]

21. Ok, who exactly should say what...??

Since you have a definite sense that something is owed in the way of apology....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

24. I don't know - but I have heard and read that a collective apology would

make alot of people feel like they are on the road to recovery.

What we seem to have now is a kind of econimic and spiritual disenfranchisement that keeps black people in a sub-category in this counrty. We all feel great about the civil rights movement - we've come so far! But have we? Sure, lynchings are down, there's integration - all of this, fantastic, it is good, however, what about the past? This nation needs to honestly adress it's history. How? - that still is a question I wrestle with every day.

[Madrone]

29. I agree that a sincere apology is needed.

I think the need for "white america" to be fully educated on the practice and effects of slavery is a HUGE part of that.

A government official standing up and saying "Our country apologizes for the mistreatment of black people" isn't going to cut it. A large percentage of white people in this country still won't give a shit or understand the horror in that part of our history. As a result, black americans are still left invalidated.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. However - just look how the 9/11 victims' families viewed Clarke's

apology.

We need to start somewhere.

[Madrone]

33. Didn't Clinton do something like that?

I don't remember the context or the exact words, but I seem to remember something about Clinton making an apology along those lines. Am I correct?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

36. I believe it was in discussion but never materialized

In his heart I think he ha apologized

[skooooo]

34. Simple economic justice..

..is what's needed, imo. You're not going to get apologies or reparations for a myriad of reasons -- and they may all be bad reasons, to your mind. But other people are just as sincere in thinking that they are valid reasons.

What we can do is make the country work like it should. I think that's the best we can hope for, and it would be pretty good imo.

[AspenRose]

31. The United States Government.

(Who should apologize)

I am too proud to accept any kind of monetary check BUT I believe educational and economic opportunities should be strengthened so that we don't HAVE to depend on hand-outs.

So when strong black brothers and sisters make it big, it is not with an * by their name (e.g. "oh they got where they are because of fill-in-the-blank, instead of on their own merit").

Make the level playing field a REALITY. In education, in government, in economics.

Having said that, however: You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. All the strengthening of infrastructure and opportunities in the world won't matter if people DON'T TAKE ADVANTAGE or DON'T WANT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE.

[goclark]

17. Thank You For Asking

I certainly hope that your kindness in asking the question doesn't get flamed. I am still extremely upset from the other discussion at DU about this issue.

I am a proud African American and I believe that Reparations is so complexed that my opinion would not give the topic dignity,which it deserves.

I have read over your thread just before I posted this response.I was glad to see that this discussion is calm and not threatening to the hearts of my people.

I pray that this attitude can continue. After all, DU should be able to have pros and cons without making African American posters feel as if they were at RU instead of DU. Remember, my people are not the enemy, Bush is...

I would also suggest that DU members visit blackcommentator.com from time to time.There is an extremely thought provoking article there today, its about Bush not Reparations.

Another wonderful site that may help you understand the hurt that we still feel today is afrigeneas.com. Visit the slavery forum and put yourself in the place of some of the posters there.

Again, thanks for your sincere efforts to seek the truth.
I pray for a civil discussion.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

22. How do you feel about Brother Malcolm's feelings about this?

Just a question - last time I stated my views I met real vitriol!

[goclark]

38. Brother Malcolm is My Hero

After enduring the indignities of "advanced slavery" in the 60's
his words of empowerment were music to my ears.His autobiography changed my life and certainly changed the way that I feel about justice and truth and self determination. In my view, it should be must reading for everyone.

He dared to speak out for our people and ultimately he spoke for all those who had/have little or no voice in this Bush driven society.
Because of Malcolm and others,I feel that my thoughts and opinions matter.

I am a double minority - an African American and a Liberal Democrat! When I read the rage that comes out at DU- from me as well as others :) it is the same kind of powerless feeling that Malcolm talked about. Malcolm was talking about oppression and what we need to do about it.

His thoughts on Reparations do not scare me. Being a Liberal Democrat I want to scream.." Give me back my country,by any means necessary! Give me my forty acres and my mule!"

Nothing Malcolm says should disturb anyone at DU.
Feel the rage in the pit of your stomach and you'll know that you are tired,after less than four years, of being enslaved by GWB. Multiply that by 100's of years and you can get a touch of what it feels like to be Black in this country.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

58. That's what I'm talkin' about!!!

:toast:

[Madrone]

25. I must have missed the other discussion.

And thank you for your answer. :)

Actually, your answer brings up another question for me re: the use of the term "african american." I usually use the term "black" because "african american" feels odd to me. I'm (as mentioned above) damned near 100% german, but don't refer to myself as "german american" - which also would be odd to me. I have (or actually HAD, as we've lost touch) a good friend back in MI who was from Liberia. I would consider HIM african american, as he's now an american that came from Liberia. I don't know - I'm curious what your personal take on this is.

Back to the reparations thing - I am sincerely asking this question because, as I said, I don't have anyone black in my life to ask this question of. Years ago I was almost exclusively associated with black friends, but as this subject never came up I never got their opinions on it. I DID get a huge education in culture however, that most whitebread girls from the "burbs" never get. I am very thankful for those experiences as I believe I am a much more well rounded person because of it.

Thank YOU for your input, and the websites you've mentioned. I will definitely check them out.

[goclark]

20. Thank You For Asking

I certainly hope that your kindness in asking the question doesn't get flamed. I am still extremely upset from the other discussion at DU about this issue.

I am a proud African American and I believe that Reparations is so complexed that my opinion would not give the topic dignity,which it deserves.

I have read over your thread just before I posted this response.I was glad to see that this discussion is calm and not threatening to the hearts of my people.

I pray that this attitude can continue. After all, DU should be able to have pros and cons without making African American posters feel as if they were at RU instead of DU. Remember, my people are not the enemy, Bush is...

I would also suggest that DU members visit blackcommentator.com from time to time.There is an extremely thought provoking article there today, its about Bush not Reparations.

Another wonderful site that may help you understand the hurt that we still feel today is afrigeneas.com. Visit the slavery forum and put yourself in the place of some of the posters there.

Again, thanks for your sincere efforts to seek the truth.
I pray for a civil discussion.

[MAlibdem]

39. Reparations in different ways...

Not money...but AA and at the very least (I don't know if this qualifies as reparations or just good national stewardship/human decency) urban renewal and job training etc.

[Laughing Mirror]

40. Yes Yes Yes. A Thousand Time Yes

The only thing America does understand is money. Reparations have to be paid.

Reparations (and I'm not talking about just a token amount) would send a warning to posterity and a future America, providing there is one. Try enslaving people and you'll pay. And you'll pay dearly.

Reparations would also draw attention to more contemporary forms of slavery (such as the prison industrial complex, which in many senses enslaves poor people of all races.)

Reparations should not even be a controversial topic as far as I'm concerned.

Pay up America. The only reason this country is as affluent as it is today is because of the riches that it accumulated on the backs of slaves. Admit it. Accept it. Apologize. Pay.

[goclark]

44. This discussion has restored my faith

This is the DU that I enjoyed!
I love the intellectual give and take by compassionate political beings.

Someone asked do I prefer to be called Black or African American. I like the term African American. To me that means, I am proud of my African heritage. I am proud that my ancestors came over on the bottom of slaves ships and helped to build this country.

They were here in the 1700's and slaved in the fields and in the homes of their Masters. They made a path for me that is filled with pain but rich in the struggle for equal rights.

I am an American. I was born here, my parents,grandparents, great grandparents,great great grandparents were born here. I am an American.

I never liked the term Black unless it's used as in James Brown's "I'm Black and I'm Proud!". My problem with it is that it brings back painful memories of my childhood. Black does not define me. I am African American.

[piouspete]

64. Sure,

I agree 1000 percent. But we need to do our homework on this. Reparations are also due to the descendants of the brave troops who died or were wounded in the civil war fighting for the Union. They were injured by this horrible institution as well

[Catholic Sensation]

41. if we're going to give reparations to every group that got screwed by us

I'd say the Native Americans deserve to be repaid first AND repaid a thousand fold more than any other group getting repaid. How many millions have been killed from our plagues, manifest destiny, war, etc.? To quote a fellow DUer, it might be the most effective genocide in this world's history. We kicked them off their land and put them on reservations. When these reservations were discovered to hold valuable minerals and the like, WE STOLE THAT LAND. We've hurt these people so much that alcoholism is one of the biggest problems facing a once proud group of people. What the fuck have we done for these people? Allowed them to grow mushrooms on their reservation? Given them the right to open casinos on their land? How generous of us. And unlike slavery, this continuous buttfucking of Native Americans continues to this very day.

This isn't meant to diminish the horrors of slavery, but to point out that there are others being neglected who might be more deserving of reparations.

I find it very disturbing that whenever reparations are talked about, only one group of people is discussed.

[JohnKleeb]

42. they are after all the most poorest racial group in our society

[LDS Jock]

61. I agree with you Neo

It reminds me of what a friend in Germany told me when the movie "Dances With Wolves" came out. He was at the theater and some people behind him said its about time the Americans made a movie about their own holocaust.

[Dark]

43. The only people who deserve reparations

are the people who were in forced labor (i.e. concentration camps, war prisons) and not convicted of a crime and are still alive.

[mvd]

45. I'm pretty ambivalent

On one hand, with slavery we were completely shutting out any opportunity to live the American dream - and there was a lot of pain and suffering. It was dehumanizing. I favor cutting our waste and defense budget to do it, and now we can also roll back the tax cuts. Just a little compensation per person would suffice, IMO. The idea is too say the United States is sorry - and there are a lot of important expenses. I don't argue that reparations are a bad thing. On the other hand, arguments among different groups are bound to develop - so what turns out to be a good gesture might turn ugly.

[Madrone]

46. I've been away for a few hours and I have to say -

I am immensely pleased with the overall and continued tone of this thread.

You guys rock - all of you!

[radwriter0555]

47. uh our GOVERNMENT has never been IN the reparations ARGUMENT.

EVER.

The whole thing is about insurance cos and corporations who profited from slavery.

what made you think the government as involved with this crap?

[radwriter0555]

48. which makes the rappers even MORE stupid....

which is kinda FUNNY.

[Madrone]

50. You are thinking about the filed lawsuits against corps,

however, there is a movement afoot that believes the US goverment owes reparations to every person of african/black blood in this country.

Example:

Who would pay reparations?

The US Government would pay reparations in the same
manner as they voted for and paid billions to Europe through the Marshall Plan after WWII, or billions to Israel every year since WWII, or to Russia, or Eastern Europe, or to prop up some puppet African Government. Just as Americans did not, as Americans did not, as individual, pay for aid to those countries, they will not pay for the debt owed to Africans in America. Nor are we blaming individual Americans, we are simply holding the US Government accountable for its wrongs.



I'm suprised you haven't heard of this before.

[radwriter0555]

56. There are plenty of movements, which amount to absolutely nothing.

There is no sense even lending credence to such nonsense.

It's divisive and pointless.

[Madrone]

57. Ouch.

<<<There is no sense even lending credence to such nonsense.>>>

For a lot of people it's not nonsense. I brought it up because I wanted to discuss it in order to better understand it myself, and see whether or not others believe it to be an important issue.


<<<It's divisive and pointless.>>>

With all due respect, this thread has been exceedingly polite and cordial - until you posted.

[Cuban_Liberal]

49. I don't know, really.

Like most people of Cuban ancestry, I have the blood of African slaves in my veins, but I'm not sure that money would actually make a difference for the years of discrimination that all non-Anglo/Northern-European Americans have suffered. How would the damages be determined? Percentage of whatever minority is in your ancestry, etc.? :shrug:

A much better solution would be a national endowment for minorities that would enable them to get good educations, start small businesses, buy farms, build decent homes in decent neighborhoods, etc. . That would be a more viable solution and would go much further toward wiping out the lasting effects of slavery and discrimination, IMO...

[Laughing Mirror]

53. Well we know what percentage of slaves made up the population

Figure out the Gross National Product for all those years and give back the percentage that should rightfully have gone to the slaves.

For example, in certain states of the South, slaves made up more than half the population. Give back half of whatever the Gross National Product was for all those years, cumulatively. This money should go to African-American population of today, who will determine what they want to do with it.

Percentage of GNP. Today's dollars.

With interest.

[sleepystudent]

51. first off, depressed about the poll...

but that's what happens when issues dealing explicitly with black people are brought up on here.

Why haven't people brought up the idea of simply exempting blacks and Native Americans from paying taxes for an extended period of time? That would include their black and Native American owned businesses, etc.(maybe) I'm black and honestly the idea of reparations makes me uncomfortable just because of the idea that whites in America would not allow any discussion of racism and injustice after the checks were cut. Look at some of the threads on here(supposedly friendly DU) just entertaining the remote possibility of reparations(not this thread-this is the sane, civil one). Because you know, in America, cash cures all! It seems too quick fix and I would also be worried about what would happen with the money-if it was used systematically and maybe communally to lift the most deprived then cool, but not if we are just gonna run to Target and basically give the money back(even though I guess it's your money, so you can do what you want with it).

But yeah, I don't think it will ever happen, but the more I hear some people get mad about it, the more I want to see it happen just to piss them off, though I think it would be more destructive to race relations than anything it would remedy.

[Catholic Sensation]

52. just what are you implying

with these statements?

but that's what happens when issues dealing explicitly with black people are brought up on here.

and this

Look at some of the threads on here(supposedly friendly DU) just entertaining the remote possibility of reparations(not this thread-this is the sane, civil one).

Please tell me what you mean by this*

When it comes to the second statement, I only see one other thread dealing with reparations, and I haven't seen a single inflammatory remark made on there.





*I'm not that stupid, but I'm simply giving him a chance to explain what he meant.

[Madrone]

54. I think he or she may be talking about reparations threads in the PAST -

someone, I think it was "goclark" also made a remark about a previous thread in their answer. Apparantly, it got nasty.

[Catholic Sensation]

55. fair enough

but i want an answer to the first statement I italicized

[Nevernose]

59. Black slave owners?Black Confederates?Northern slave-traders

What about the thousand or so freed slaves that in turn owned slaves in Georgia alone (at the beginning of the Civil War)?

What about the thousands of freed blacks who fought for the South? Maybe we should punish their families? (makes as much asense as punishing mine -- even thoug none of my ancestors, who fought for the South, owned any slaves).

After it was made illegal to import slaves to the South, it was still legal to import them to the North. In fact, the vast majority of slaves entering the United States from 1600-1861 came through Boston or New York.

Remember that movie {i]Amistad? Know what that freed slave did after the movie? He spent a few years collecting money from speaking before abolitionist groups -- then took the money, bought himself a slave-ship, and spent the rest of his days bringing slaves to Cuba.

What about all of the white slaves that were held unitl 1750 or so (I'm not talking about indentured servants -- I'm talking about slaves).

The point I'm trying to make here is that slavery is a far more complex issue than black or white, North or South, or even right or wrong. Besides which, enforcement of the 14th amendant and affirmative actions laws will help more in the long run anyway, IMO.

[brainshrub]

60. I voted no. But...

I am not adverse to creating a congressional committee to look into the issue and make a proposal that we could all debate.

Frankly, I think it's to late for reparations for slavery.

[Madrone]

62. I purposely did not vote in this poll -

as I laid out where my head was at in my post. And I wanted to hear what other people had to say, as I wasn't cemented in my views.

Something I've learned from this thread however, is that I don't think most of us have any clear idea of just WTF "reparations" means. I was thinking about it like GWB's $300 "cash advance" tax cut. Everyone would get a check, game over. Sorry for your troubles.

After following the thread, I don't think that's necessarily what the black community means at all.

Shit - I'm white and because of where I live don't deal with any diversity at this point in my life. I don't really understand the inner workings of this entire debate, which is the reason for the thread. I'm trying to figure it out.

[LDS Jock]

63. My thoughts

You ask if the government should pay. Which really means should WE pay. I don't understand why I should pay for reparations. I did not enslave anyone and I have not profited off of slavery. I am Mormon and like most Mormons have done a great deal of genealogy work. No one in my family has found any record of any slave owners, which isn't surprising considering the areas of the country we lived in. So, I really don't understand why I should pay anything. I thought Affirmative Action was supposed to help level the playing field for past problems. It has made some progress but of course has not solved all the problems. I don't believe reparations would either. I do believe it would polarize the population, much as we see on here. Some would think its due, some would think its not and be angry, and we could end up with a different problem than the one we started with.

[piouspete]

65. In the words of a prophet........

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?