I am now an ex-Catholic

[Midwest_Doc]

The Vatican will withold communion from those who are pro-choice.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20040423/pl_nm/campaign_kerry_vatican_dc

This is the last straw.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

1. This is a very foolish decision on the part of the Vatican.

Perhaps they're tired of being in the Church business. This decision will only cause them to lose many people from their members and further their slide into oblivion. It would be tragic if it wasn't so predictable. Whatever happened to 'Love the Sinner, not the Sin' or 'Judge Not, Lest ye be Judged'?

[stopthegop]

3. not foolish....they appear to be standing on the doctrine..

people can make a choice to follow RC doctrine and be in good standing, or go some other way...

foolish would be to follow trends and change basic beliefs to stay popluar...

FWIW: I am not Roman Catholic

[freetobegay]

2. Why the Catholic church has survived is beyond me.

I feel for you, but do remember there are religions out there that are not hypocritical.

[JPJones]

39. Bullshit

Name any religion and I bet DUers can come with a long list of hypocrisy in that religion.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Why ANY church has survived is beyond me.

But then again, I'm a filthy intolerant atheist who strives to send all God-fearing people into concentration camps and impose the metric system on America.

[Az]

47. Evolution

The systems that survive propogate. A few changes here and there over time and repeat. The ones that do not accept change die.

[redqueen]

4. Joe Conason is on The People's Agenda at 10 CST here

Wish I could listen. He'll be discussing how certain people are trying to turn the US into a theocracy. Hope someone mentions this for discussion.

Also isn't this more of a GD topic? Just wonderin'.

[Loonman]

5. Well, they still have no problem with

Priests fucking little kids.

[redqueen]

7. Policy of covering it up

Can't say the RCC has many redeeming qualities when compared to that decades long policy. :mad:

[dedhed]

6. RE: "I am now an ex-Catholic"

That's just incredible, isn't it?!? By that same logic, no Catholic male who gets a stiffy outside their own bedroom is deserving of Communion.

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

[Gasolinedream]

8. This is idiotic

Kerry is our future President. He may be totally against women having abortions for all I know, yet he is not for banning it. It's America, where you don't just ban what you don't like and we believe in Seperation of Church and State.

This is insensitive and improper, but this Bishop is being a big A-hole. Stay out of our Politics you jerk. THe church has always held this belief, why is he re-affirming this right now!!!???

I don't really hate the Catholic Church, but this gives me one more reason to dislike the Catholic Church.

Aren't these the same people who hide child molesterers??

[demnan]

9. Why should this surprise you?

The goal of the church is to manipulate public morality through private guilt.

Welcome to the thinking world.

[many a good man]

10. You're OK if you're "ambiguous"

<snip>
At a news conference presenting a Vatican document restating standing rules about the celebration of Mass, Cardinal Francis Arnize was reminded of the Kerry case and asked if a priest should refuse communion to a politician who is unambiguously pro-abortion.


"Yes," he answered. "If the person should not receive it, then it should not be given. Objectively, the answer is there."
</snip>

What about if you are privately opposed to abortion yet you agree to permit it BECAUSE YOU LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT SEPARATES CHURCH AND STATE ???

[Old and In the Way]

11. No discussion of birth control in the Bible.

Where does this good old boy network get off assuming what God thinks about this? I have no problem with them being pro-life....I do have a problem when they are coercive with their doctrine.

I find it amazing that an institution rocked with their own moral shortcomings has the audacity to take a position on this issue.

[VelmaD]

17. Actually the Bible...

does address this topic. It specifically states how long it is after conception before the spirit inhabits the body. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head but I know it's in there. It directly contradicts those "christians" who claim life begins at conception. I'll try to find my bible and find the exact reference after work.

[Bossy Monkey]

26. Well, not in so many words (at least not in the King James Version)

Here's the searchable KJV: http://www.bartleby.com/108/ Maybe you'll have better luck than me. I only found 3 instances of the word "conception"; none pertained. (Not saying you're wrong; just couldn't think of enough synonyms to find the quote you wanted)

[VelmaD]

28. I'm pretty sure about this one...

but will admit I could be wrong. It's just that I remember being really upset at one point because the timing was different for female fetuses than for males. I'm gonna have to do some serious searching later on today.

[Bridget Burke]

29. Check the works of (Saint) Thomas Aquinas

Not the Bible, but pretty important to Catholics.

He held that the male fetus was "ensouled" after 40 days; the female, after 80. There's a long history of various popes' going back & forth on this doctrine, but the belief that human life began at conception is fairly recent. (Recent if you consider how long the Church has been in business.)

[VelmaD]

30. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of...

I was starting to wonder if somewhere along the line I got confused with the stricture on how long a woman had to wait after giving birth to go in the Temple and how long she was considered unclean...which is longer for girls than boys. Nice to know I wasn't completely out in left field.

[TrogL]

32. I suppose Onan was practicing birth control

(ambiguous)

but again I need to point out:

• he did not get in trouble for masturbating.
  
• he did not get in trouble for birth control per se.
  
• he got in trouble for disobeying God.
  

[sniffa]

12. weLcome to the cLub

dress is casuaL and you can Leave earLy on fridays.

[Az]

13. This is an aspect of religion that is curious to me

One would think that you follow a religion, not the religion follows you. Thus if you do not hold with a particular religious pronouncement of a particular sect can you really consider yourself a follower of that sect?

In reality each person has their own set of beliefs about what their religion should be. They get their ideas primarily from the sect they belong to but they are also influenced by their environment and experience.

This is what makes religions evolutionary. They do not pass their teachings on to its followers perfectly. Minor differences show up. New paths are found. Society, though influenced by religion, takes its own path sometimes. The religions that are not able to adapt, change, or force the society to change, cannot keep up with this change. They fade out. They pass away.

Its a tricky tact specificying a clearly defined moral precept in our changing society. As long as you stick to readily defined ideas as don't kill people, tell the truth, don't steal, you can remain fairly safe. But less obvious moral positions can run afoul of social change. This is why you will find that most surviving religions support a relatively shared set of moral values.

The Catholic Churchs Humana Vitae established their firm position of rejecting birth control and abortion. This was the line they drew in the sand in a time when the societal values were not ready to challenge their position. At the time it seemed a safe bet. Times change. Birth control has become one of the most effective tools in fighting poverty, suffering, and misery. The church now finds itself trapped.

When your claim to authority is based on your claim of being the arbiter of right and wrong as relayed from on high, it is vitally important not to say oops. It took them 500 years to say sorry to Galileo. Dogmatic Doctrine is about being right. Faith. Conviction. Certainty. If they back down on abortion and birth control they stand to lose their very identity.

[SOteric]

14. This isn't new. The Cardinal was reiterating policy already in place.

[Beware the Beast Man]

15. Counterpoint- from Church members themselves

As a Catholic, I found this very disturbing. So, I did a little research, and here's a good article, straight from catholic.org:

European bishops say they'd hesitate to deny politicians Communion
By Cindy Wooden

April 22, 2004

OME (CNS) -- Several European bishops said they would be very hesitant to announce publicly that a Catholic politician could not receive the Eucharist because of a political stand, even in favor of legalized abortion.

In telephone interviews they cited a number of reasons, including a reluctance to "stigmatize" individual Catholics and a reluctance to use the Eucharist as a sanction for a political position.

The issue was heating up in the United States with regard to Massachusetts Sen. John F. Kerry, the probable Democratic candidate for president, who supports legal abortion.

European bishops and a pro-life activist contacted by Catholic News Service said that while some Catholic politicians on the continent have supported legislation opposed by the church they could not recall a politician being denied Communion.


HERE'S THE REST:

http://www.catholic.org/cathcom/national_story.php?id=7363

I hope this brings a bit of comfort to my fellow Catholic DUers.

[Loonman]

If the Church wants to get involved in politics

Let them pay taxes like everyone else.

[qb]

16. What the Vatican says and what Catholics in the U.S. do are

two different things. Non-story.

[IronLionZion]

18. I disagree with a lot of the church's positions

but I'm staying Catholic as of now. If they won't give me communion. I couldn't care less. Some of my relatives were ex-communicated for marrying non-Catholics and not raising their children as Catholic. They don't give a shit.

stupid :crazy:

[MsSnood]

19. TO be fair, this article is only referring to Kerry

and not all Catholics. But I commend your stand on this issue.


I am beginning to like Kerry more and more, since the right fanatics consider him such a Hethen.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

20. I understand how you feel...

I left Catholicism years ago because I did not agree with far too many of its teachings. Homosexuality, choice, birth control, a woman's role in the world, a woman's role in the church, abstinence for priests, sex outside of marriage -- these are all core teachings that I simply do not agree with in ANY way. Still, there are many, many Catholics who feel as I do yet stay with the church.

I simply can't do that -- I would feel the hypocrite.

[truthspeaker]

21. Good for you!

You've taken the first step into a larger world.

It's possible to obey God (assuming there is one) without obeying the dictates of fallible humans.

[redqueen]

25. Bingo!

Dump the dogma, keep the relationship with God / spirituality.

Dogma perverts spirituality, AFAIC.

[MaineDem]

22. After 13 years in Catholic schools

I was raised a Catholic and part of me still thinks of myself as catholic although I'm losing more and more of my ties to the church.

I agree with how you feel. I don't have time to go into detail because I'm on my way to Washington for the March for Choice.

I'm not pro-abortion and I don't know what I would have done if I had been in the position to make the choice but I'm all for women having that opportunity to chose. When I was young there was no choice at all and many women died. End of story, as far as I'm concerned!

My uncle was a Jesuit. Another uncle was a parish priest. I had 3 priests and a Monsignor on the altar when I got married. I've lost most all respect for the Catholic Church now.

[Old and In the Way]

27. Hi MaineDem

8 years of Jesuit education here. This is a far different church then I remember in the early 70s. They used to be focused on the plight of 3rd world peoples and the immorality of war. I'm sure people like the Berrigan brothers today are no longer welcome by this hierarchy. They are Republicans wearing collars, AFAIAC.

[johnnie]

23. So...

Catholic priests can molest children, then give communion, but pro choice members of the church can't receive it? OK, that was too easy and beaten in to the ground already.
To be honest, I was raised in the Catholic church, but came into my own when I was about 13. I have no problem with the church upholding their doctrine and if you don't like it "turn the channel" so to speak.
I can never understand why people want philosophies and religions to cater to their own needs and beliefs. Start your own religion if you don't like the one you belong to or if another one doesn't fit your style. I'm in no way bashing anyone for what they believe, but you are free to choose what you believe.
I knew a girl who was pissed off because she wanted a big Catholic wedding, but they wanted her and future husband to go to their classes. I guess she wanted them to change so she could get cool pictures of the big stained glass windows.

[LDS Jock]

24. No communion to those who support the death penalty?

I didn't see any mention of that. The right wingers who want to fry criminals would all be denied communion under such a rule. Seems like a double standard to me.

My favorite line of the article...

"Kerry has said he keeps his religion separate from his public life."

If only all politicians were like this.

[prolesunited]

31. Exactly!

I left the Catholic Church at 16 because of the hypocrisy. I used to get in screaming matches with my mother every Sunday morning about going because I refused to go. By that time, I was partying every Saturday night and engaging in other non-sanctioned activities. I just couldn't sit in the pews on Sunday morning.

Someone mentioned upthread about the church abandoning some of its traditional causes and embracing RW ideologies. I have witnessed that. The church used to be on the vanguard in the fight for social and economic causes, making a vocal stand.

Now, they have embraced the RW because of abortion issues and tossed all of the other interests aside.

Prior to the 2000 selection, they were distributing graphic videos on so-called partial birth abortion. They didn't exactly endorse Bush, but the message was clear. I discovered later that my father, a working class union man who has voted Dem his entire life, actually voted for Bush because of this video and the implied endorsement of the church.

Needless to say, he regretted it within the first two months when he saw him speak and watched them go right after unions.

[mvd]

33. I had it with the Church a while ago

Catholics are going against Catholic doctrine all the time. I see nothing that should give a pro-choice view more scorn than usual. At a point where they should be gaining back the good will of people, this is a silly move IMO.

[galadrium]

34. Well its only for politicians who are PRO-ABORTION, not pro choice.

Im pro-choice, not pro abortion. Kerry does not advocate that women should have abortions. Therefore there is no conflict. Stupid Church.

[Canuckistanian]

36. How do you make that distinction?

And how would you explain that to a RWer?

[galadrium]

37. Somebody who is pro-abortion...

Advocates using abortion as a form of birth control. A pro choice person lets people make their own decision about abortion.

Personally I hate the idea of abortions and would try to talk anybody out of having one, but I believe that ultimately the decision is up to the woman.

[mvd]

41. The radicals don't care about that distinction

They have no problem using pro-abortion to label pro-choice people. I've seen a lot of mentions, with no distinction.

[Beer Snob-50]

45. THANK YOU!!!

This sums up the whole debate perfectly!!!

[Canuckistanian]

35. I thought the Church was against divorce and capital punishment too

Yet I don't see the Church withholding communion for those reasons.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. If Kerry has any brains he'll say just that.

This is a campaign move.

[U of M Dem 07]

49. the Roman Catholic church

does withhold communion for those who have had divorces. My mom's best friend is Catholic, and got a divorce because her husband cheated on her, but yet they do not allow her to take communion.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

38. I don't see this happening! It would start a revolt and new protestantism

Many in the Church are liberal and would abhor this "withholding of God" from people based on their secular responsibilities. I don't think this will go anywhere

[Canuckistanian]

40. You think it would start a backlash? n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

42. ABSOLUTELY - amongst layity and clergy!!! There's enough tension as is

I know a few Catholic politicians whoa re against abortions in their hearts and feel a duty to uphold the inherent secular nature of this Country. And I know of several clergy who would revolt. They'd lose Priests like rats jumping ship (I love the church so I hate using this metaphor and I hate the way the extremely conservative Vatican runs it).

It would be a new protestant revolt I promise you!

[Az]

43. Fixed morality in a changing society

The claim of the Church is that Morality comes directly from god. As soon as you disconnect this claim from god you get moral relativity (bad phrase in certain circles). Humans are not supposed to be able to figure out right and wrong. Thats why they need god to define it. Morality is not supposed to come from our collective efforts to work out a moral and ethical code. It is for god alone to determine.

The Catholic church sits as the supposed arbiter for god. Their strength of claim depends on their being able to correctly fullfill this roll. The pope when speaking on official matters or from the seat of Peter is supposed to be infallible. Even on matters where the pronouncement is not supposed to be infallible it is expected to be correct. As soon as you introduce doubt concerning the position of the Vatican you begin dismantling the Church.

So the Church is very cautious about issuing any specific claims of morality on issues it has not already defined itself on. A changing society creates a dangerous environment for them to draw a line in stone. Unfortunately a pronouncement called the Humana Vitae declared the official position of the Church was opposed to birth control and abortion. All subsequent popes have had to deal with this position in an increasingly changing society.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

48. The church is more organic than you give it credit for

There are 1,000,000,000 Catholics. Among the clergy there are very liberal people. This is why I predict revolt among the ranks if they start using these tactics!

[Az]

50. Oh I give it much more credit

It is an entity of its own and it evolves. But the Catholic church has a serious problem in the form of birth control and abortion. It will survive this, but it is going to cause a great deal of damage and there will likely be some form of schism.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

51. Please try and stick with us DU Catholics who are trying to fit out faith

into our political views. Not to sound weak but we liberal Catholics need help to weather the storm! Our hearts are on the right track despite what the upper echelons of our Church might be dishing out!

[NoPasaran]

52. You're never really an ex-catholic

Only a recovering catholic. I've been one for thirty years.