Forbes Poll recreated here: Should the obese pay for 2 seats?

[Superfly]

<snip>

NEW YORK - In June 2002, Southwest Airlines began enforcing its longstanding rule of charging extra-large passengers for two seats. One month later, a man and his sister threatened to sue after they were denied boarding when they refused to buy extra seats. The airline later refunded the cost of the original flight and apologized, saying the siblings had not been asked to pay for extra seats at the time of purchase.

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Link

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. No airlines should make larger seats to acommodate all sizes

[redqueen]

2. This making sense thing you're doing

Very easy to agree with. :)

[rocktivity]

3. Yes, that's the real problem

I'm not comfortable in your average airline seat, and I am far from overweight. At least that way they could justify charging for an additional seat.

:headbang:
rocknation

[wryter2000]

4. Yup

Thank you

[Mrs. Venation]

9. I Agree

I am not obese, but I inherited my mama's big butt, and airplane seats are just too damn small! I'd gladly pay a bit more for a more comfortable seat.

[Delano]

13. That will significantly increase the price for all.

Besides they havve bigger seats. It's called "first class"

[VelmaD]

15. Not on Southwest...

no first class seating. No assigned seating either. They don't call it "Cattle-call Airlines" for nothing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. No one should be compelled to pay more than market price for a seat

if the market includes a sizable (no pun intended) portion of the population that requires larger seats.

Commercial planes were redesigned to fit MORE seats in them back in the late 70's early 80's.

Airplane seats are not designed according to any median but according to how to squeeze more seats into less space.

IF Americans are getting larger than plane seats should too.

[Vladimir]

18. Quite n/t

[greatauntoftriplets]

32. And more leg room for us tall people!!!

I hate getting my knees banged.

[AntiCoup2K4]

42. Abso-fucking-lutely!

I can always lose weight, but I ain't getting any shorter. There's more legroom in the back seat of a 2 door Geo Metro than there is on a lot of airplanes. Of course you can always grab the emergency exit rows....

...IF you happen to be booking your flight a month or so in advance... which isn't always possible (say if relatives drop dead in another state or something).

Most flights aren't sold out anyway. Lose a few rows of seats and spread em out a little.

[VelmaD]

5. Uh...how exactly was Southwest supposed to know...

they needed the extra seats at the time of purchase. They likely bought their tickets over the net or the phone. There's no way the airline would know to ask them to purchase the extra seats at that time. It would be up to the passenger to tell them that...which these two obviously did not do.

As someone who used to be very large I can understand the embarassment these people had to suffer. But I also know how hard it was to show-horn my butt into those little bitty airplane seats. It's a bad situation all the way around but I figure there's plenty of blame for both sides.

[eyesroll]

6. I think it depends

What are you buying? Are you buying a seat, or are you buying passage from point A to point B.

(I don't have an airline contract of carriage in front of me, so I don't know the answer.)

If you're buying a seat, and you need more than one, it's only fair you pay for what you need.
If you're buying passage, then I think regardless of how much space you occupy, you've paid for the trip in your original purchase.

Although, yes, I agree -- more space, period, would be a good thing. I don't have a problem myself with airline seats (I'm short), but plenty of people do.

[Lizz612]

11. Thats the most logical

dissection of this issue I have ever heard.
I wonder what the answer is.

[Interrobang]

37. My dad's a pilot; I've read a lot of ticket boilerplate.

You're definitely buying "passage," not the place in the seat.

Personally, I think that if you're so large you're skewing the average passenger weight upwards, you should have to pay extra. This isn't discrimination, it's simple physics. It's also got nothing to do with "obesity," either. My comments apply just as much to an obese person as they do to somebody like Gokor, the Mongolian wrestler, who's 700 lbs of nearly solid muscle.

Airlines have to calculate based on average passenger weights how much fuel the plane will need, how much baggage and cargo they can carry on a certain flight, and so on. Airplanes *do* have upper weight limits, and everyone who is over the average (185 lbs per passenger) to such an extent that it raises (skews upward) that average significantly based on the number of passengers aboard -- and I'm not talking about a 225 lb person, either, I'm talking about a *serious* skew -- could potentially create a safety hazard. (There has been more than one case where the guidelines were sufficiently wrong to cause a crash.) Besides straight weight limits, pilots also have to compensate for weight distribution -- if the weight is unevenly distributed around the plane, it can cause a crash.

Not only that, but it's more expensive to fly someone who is significantly over the average, in terms of fuel burnt, and compensating for their weight.

This weight limit and average calculation applies to baggage, too. Everyone who checks an "overweight" piece of baggage has to pay extra, because it costs them more to ship, handle, and arrange it, as well.

This is exactly the same praxis as caused the bans on smoking (clogs up the electronics and can cause serious malfunctions) and wearing very high heels (can punch through the floor, possibly causing pressurization problems) on airplanes.

Note: Edited to clarify my point about *size,* not necessarily obesity...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. this is such BS

poor poor airline will be so out of pocket to make a few larger seats...we should have compassion for them and not the obese who are already discriminated against

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Well gosh so was making drinking fountains available to people of

all colors in the South. So if we discriminate against a portion (and the obese are a growing portion of the population - again no pun intended) then who shall we discriminate against next? People with children?

The airlines are saying cry me a river but the fact of the matter is the population is larger. If they wish to service this market then they should accomodate it.

BTW...your "lardass" remark was really beyond reasonable in this debate.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. lard ass seats?

somepeople think that efficienct is not a societal hallmark..accomodation is...as is kindness and generousity...we call such people liberal

[Delano]

35. Fair enough, but there's a limit to everything and all things in moderatio

And as a person with a pretty sizeable arse, I've been called "lardass" a few times myself, but I don't blame it on anybody else. I can at least fit into an airline seat, and I'm 6'2", 240+ lbs. Obesity is a sad problem, but every reputable doctor I've EVER talked to and every reputable medical literature I've read has said unequivocally that ANYONE can lose weight by cutting calories and increasing exercise, INCLUDING people with thyroid disorders. Of course people carrying around an enormous tumor are an exception. Even wheelchair-bound individuals can lose weight by cutting calories. I've seen a few guys in wheelchair with massive arms...I'm rambling.


The point of the thread is about seats and tickets. It seems unfair that normal-sized passengers should be penalized. Morbidly obese people should have to pay for any seats they use. If the "lardass" comment hurt feelings, I take it back, but If I were 300+ lbs, and unable/unwilling to do diet/exercise, I would get bariatric surgery. Telling people that it's "okay" to be morbidly obese is condoning their suicide.

This ends my conversation with the professional offendees, because I know how they are, and how they love to turn a flippant comment into a flame war. So go ahead, lay your bait. I won't be back to this thread.

[thom1102]

39. Ok, I am a big boy, but...

My ass fits comfortably into the average airline seat, as does my ample belly, but I have extremely broad shoulders that exceed the average capacity of the allotted space. Now I try and compensate for this by choosing an aisle seat and leaning into the aisle for the duration of the flight. For your average short flight to DC etc, this is fine, but on your crosscountry flights, this just blows. I won't fly Southwest again. Not while they insist on their 3-3 seat configuration. I'll pay the extra whatever and fly American, or United, or Continental, or Delta, or US Airways. I insist on a modicum of comfort, and that can't be acheived on a Southwest flight.

[WillParkinson]

34. Lardass?

Yeah, sure, whatever. That's a really good way to 'discuss' something. Just start throwing out crude names. Remember, some people can't help being extra large. My aunt, who just died recently, had a condition all her life. She was a plus sized woman. It wasn't something she could control.

[Misunderestimator]

36. Oh yeah.... Like giving rights to gays would make you pay more too

And... it would. We could finally have survivor support SS benefits, company pension plan benefits, company health benefits.

And you would pay for it ALL.... BWaaahaaaaahaaaaaa

[NightTrain]

44. "Lardass seats?"

Has it occurred to you that some of your fellow DUers are overweight and may just take offense at a term like "lardass?"

When I referred to someone as a "cunt," it inspired a shitstorm of indignant replies, followed by my post being deleted and a moderator's warning going to my inbox. I wonder if the same will happen to Delano as a result of his little epithet?

[KamaAina]

46. You do realize that your namesake/avatar used a wheelchair

right?

I don't think every single place in the US should be required to have a wheelchair ramp

Of course FDR had Secret Service agents to function as his personal assistants, so as President, he could function without ramps. Most people with disabilities don't have that option.

[Skittles]

8. torn on this

I understand airlines are in the business of selling space but it must be very demeaning for obese people, who already face so much adversity.

[Snow]

10. They should fly Midwest Express instead of Southwest,

where all the seats are nice big comfortable first class seats and the prices are still standard fares, and it's a very nice company/airline that deserves more customers. I highly recommend Midwest Express for all of you - and you should see their meals!

[eyesroll]

23. They cut out the meals a couple of years ago...

Now you can buy not-quite-as-good meals for $10.

[Snow]

28. Did they really? ~sigh~ What I get for moving to LA, where I'm

mostly out of reach. I stop flying them, & they deteriorate.

[benddem]

12. I all for not discriminating

But have you ever been squashed between two 300+ pounders. That seat should be free. :nopity:

[VelmaD]

14. Yup, not seeing much consideration around here...

for the person next to them who is not getting to use all of the seat that they paid for. :shrug:

[SOteric]

16. Do anorexics get seats for half price? Will people with body odor

be charged for extra seats as well?

They should make airliners with seats big enough to accommodate a wide variety sizes in people.

My brother isn't overweight, but he's 6"7 and big. Many people are. He doesn't fit comfortably in one airline seat on most planes. Why should an airline determine that he should be financially penalised rather than to order the fitting of a plane with appropriate accommodation? The answer is greed. It's what those those inappropriately spaced seats are about.

[VelmaD]

20. I think part of the problem here is the airline in question...

Southwest bills themselves as a "low-cost" carrier. That means squishing in as many people as possible on a flight. As someone who has flown Southwest a lot you just kind of know that going in...that you're gonna be packed in like sardines. That's why I only fly them for short flights. I pick something a little more comfy if it's gonna be a long haul.

That said, I guess now I'm wondering if other airlines are squishing people in now too. Seems like every time I've flown American or Delta I've had plenty of room...even back when I was big. :shrug:

[Commendatori]

19. Yes, they should be charged double,

just as a heavier package costs more to ship.

However, people who get charged for two seats should get two meals if they want, too. True, if you're that big you might want to skip a meal, but you should be given the option. Airlines that charge heavy hitters for two seats only give them one meal, which is bullshit.

Also, they should get double frequent flier miles - they're buying two seats, they should get two seats' worth of miles. They only get one, which is also bullshit.

[felonious thunk]

21. Business Opportunity!

What smart airline is going to be the one that offers larger seats? Offer larger seats, at a slightly higher rate, no lack of dignity, no rules or laws, just a business smart enough to recognize a growth potential!

This is tongue and cheek, but really, with Americans getting fatter, I would think that at least one of the airlines would seize on this, put larger seats in and sell them for a higher price.

[camero]

22. Everything has been pretty much covered here already

Good posts. I would just suggest if it's possible that the person should book an early morning or red eye flight because most of the times those flights are not even nearly full and when I've flown like that I usually have either one or both seats in the row empty.

I don't think the airlines should charge people for the extra seat since the fare is by the trip and it's discriminatory. They should make bigger seats.

[Misunderestimator]

24. I'm surprised to see this here

If I was obese (and I'm not... but that's kinda like a straight person (which I'm not) saying they're not gay when talking about gays.... but anway)... If I was obese, I would expect that I should inform the airline that I might require two seats, but I shouldn't be expected to pay for them. If they're unable to accommodate me on a specific flight in advance, then we would need to work out another flight. If I did not inform them in advance, then the airline shouldn't be expected to be able to accommodate me, but they should make every effort to do so.

I think that there is some room for compromise on the airlines and their consumers here that would respect our obese citizens from discrimation.

I think I'm beginning to see that obese-bashing really is a protected sort of bigotry. But apparently it's ok to expect obese people to pay twice as much as we do. How about charging more for kids who have to have supervision, which is provided by the airline, and you are paying for it in the price of your seat?

Yeesh.

[VelmaD]

25. Charging extra for "unsupervised" kids is fine...

with me. Little brats kicking the back of my seat drive me up a freakin' tree.

[Misunderestimator]

27. LOL

Ok.... put that way, and having lived it myself, I agree with you. :)

[Missy Vixen]

31. Oh, goody! Time for another "fat people are less than human" thread!

>I think I'm beginning to see that obese-bashing really is a protected sort of bigotry.<

I agree. It's also practiced most by those who believe themselves to be permanently immune from this particular issue.

I'm happy to pay for two seats. I'd better get double the frequent flyer miles, though. Paying for an additional seat in a walk-up situation ensures that I'll be spending quite a bit more for my accommodation than most others on the flight.

Julie

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. I wouldn't back down nor would I pay a penny more than the

cost of a single seat...if that's the case and the plane hits turbulence and gets sued are you going to receive twice the indemnity?

It's bullshit..plain and simple...notice the thread isn't about muscle bound people who take up just as much space as an obese person.

[cheezus]

45. obese-bashing as protected bigotry.

You say this as though obesity is something that people have no control over. They're born this way (as in black, or woman, or gay) and it's out of their control.

Sure, people should be considerate, but the obese aren't a protected class, and people aren't bigots when they don't want to accomodate them.

As a discriminated against class I'd say it's more comparable to smokers.

On the other hand, there's stupid bashing left and right and those people were just born stupid!

[IronLionZion]

38. Somewhere between full price and free

but they damn well get an extra seat! Have you ever ridden between two very large people? No offense to large people, but it's a horrible experience for all.

Requiring them to buy an extra seat at say half price sounds extremely fair to me.

[Missy Vixen]

41. Airline policy small print

>Requiring them to buy an extra seat at say half price sounds extremely fair to me.<

Oh, sure, okay. I'll be happy to buy that second seat if it is for my exclusive use. The small print of the airline policy reads that the airline reserves the right to reseat someone else in the second seat I just paid for. It's absolutely true. We've also tried buying the seat beween us, and been refused on several occasions.

BTW, I think the following should also have to buy an extra seat:

Anyone over 6'2"
Bodybuilders
Those who smoke heavily
Those who bathe in their perfume
Those who fly while ill
Those who insist on changing their baby's dirty diapers in the airplane cabin
Anyone with a child who thinks it's "cute" when said child kicks the back of my seat for several hours

Julie

[LisaM]

40. No, but maybe they should charge more to TALL people

who lean back and take up all my reading/crossword puzzle/eating/drinking room on one side, and knee me in the back on the other.

[cheezus]

43. oh, c'mon. those seats recline the same amount for everyone

and that amount is (and this is the techinal term) "not very much"

[SmileyBoy]

47. I'm 35 lbs. overweight, but I fit fine in any seat.

Never in my life have I had a problem with the size of my chair, and I plan to keep it that way.

I've lost a little more weight, actually. I'm 18 lbs. less than my peak weight from last summer.

[seaglass]

48. My first reaction was yes, mainly because I've been stuck

next to people who could not fit well in their seat and overlapped into mine.

But then I thought of all the other annoyances that I've put up with on flights:

a skinny guy sitting next to me clipping his fingernails and letting them fly at me

a drunk guy trying to pick me up

an older woman who wouldn't stop showing me pictures of her dog dressed up in clothes - even while I had headphones on and a book in my face

So, my thought is no, even if someone is intruding in my personal space, that is certainly not the worst annoyance and it seems unfair to require only them to get another seat.