Catholics for Free Choice, and other Catholic questions -PLEASE no bashing

[4_Legs_Good]

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I know there are many anti-relgious types here and I wholeheartedly respect you and understand that (some of) you believe that religion is a farce or brainwashing or whatever. I have no problem with that, but could we maybe keep this thread to people who are pro-religion (perhaps currently or ex-Cathoilcs/mainstream Christians), just to avoid getting into a tiff?
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I've been a Catholic all my life, and really like it, but I'm getting more and more upset at the Church's political moves toward the right. We have a great pastor in my parish at the moment, but it's only a matter of time (2 years or less, I think) before he's moved on, and we'll roll the dice and probably get a conservative. There is one other Catholic parish in my town and it is already ultra-conservative.

I am Pro-Choice, though still not an abortion fan (who is?). I am adamantly pro-gay marriage and double plus pro separation of church and state. I am also pro-social justice, anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-vegetarian, anti-gun, pro-environment, pro-population control, pro-religious tolerance, anti-conversion (prostelization?), etc.

The question is: Is there room for me in the Catholic Church? I don't want to leave, but I find that the right-wing factions of the Church are getting very strong, and the left wing factions are getting weaker. The headline in a recent issue of "Our Sunday Visitor" (which I never read) read "Why good Catholics can and do disagree with Rome on the Iraqi war." Never, ever have I seen the OSV headline read, "Why good Catholics can and do disagree with Rome on choice and contraception."

Does anyone have any good information about "Catholics for Free Choice" or other progressive organizations? What am I to do if all the parishes near me start putting up crosses all over their lawns every Roe v. Wade day. We already have one tombstone for "all the aborted babies", and the other parish in town is swamped with them. I can't go all the way to Boston for Mass (I live in California)!

How are the Greek or Russian Orthodox churches on progressive attitudes?

Anyway, sorry to go on. I've just been getting more upset lately at the way things are going...

david

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

1. I am with you 100%!!!

There is a difference between the Church, its spirituality and ritual and the political/social activities of the Vatican.

[Cursive_Knives512]

2. I hear ya

Just remember the basic messages of Jesus's teachings, not just the Church's. Jesus, as Christians say, is the one true leader. I read this somewhere, I can't remember where, that many of the Church's teachings follow Paul, not Jesus. I'd advise you to read the New Testament for yourself, and decide what is the best way for you to worship.

Good luck!

[Warpy]

3. When I was surviving Catholic school

...the one useful thing I was taught was to listed to that "still, small voice within," because that was the voice god used to communicate with us. Catholics by and large are out there listening to that voice, and it's telling them that butchering women by making abortions illegal is not the right thing to do.

The main cardinal who is raising the rumpus over Kerry is a Nigerian who is bucking to be the first black pope by being as far to the right as he possibly can be.

I guess he never heard of rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Christ knew that combining religion and government was a rotten idea, since it inevitably diminished both. It's a pity Rome hasn't caught a clue.

I find I love Catholics. I just hate the church hierarchy.

[vi5]

4. Hopefully I can phrase this without offense....

I often pose this general issue to my parents all the time. They are devout, practicing catholics who feel the same way you do on all of those issues. They are social, political moderates to liberals who almost always vote dem.

What I cannot understand is why anyone would be willing to compromise that much on something that is supposed to be the entire foundation of your existence. If your religion isn't important to a person then I can see where they wouldn't care about these things. Like someone who doesn't vote but also doesn't like to talk or care about politics. But religion is VERY important to my parents, yet rather than choosing their religion based on their actual belief system, they continue to stick with a religion that does not reflect their beliefs simply because of what I call spiritual inertia. I could see if there were no other christian denominations out there that reflected their beliefs but there ARE. So if they like the bible and like the teachings of jesus and they believe in god, then why would they continue to support an organization which based on what they believe, betrays those ideals.

I realize it's a thorny issue but I honestly respect my parents faith and their belief so I hate to see them admit that the only reason they stay with it is because of tradition rather than a reflection of core beliefs.

[4_Legs_Good]

9. Good question...

And your parents' responses ring true for me too. It's hard to explain, but I like being Catholic. I like the notion of Apostolic succession. I do believe that the Church itself is something worthy of adhereing to. I like being connected to the rest of the Church across the planet. I like the mythology of the Saints. I like being part of the 2,000 year history.

However, the Church also commits great evil, and the question is for me, at what point do you try to weather the storm and at what point do you finally jump ship.

I think that I agree with the Church's teachings most of the time, but there are some key issues that it chooses to focus on e.g. Abortion, lack of need for population control, contraception, an infantile view of sexuality, lack of women in the heiarcy, and, perhaps above all - Tolerance, which for me are KEY issues in the opposite direction.

I suppose I should do more research on how the mystics and spiritualists of the past survived through the very difficult times of the Inquisition, etc.

So, it's not *just* that it's how I was brought up, though that is an important part, and I still hope that I can help bring a better awareness.

But again, it's a question of how far I can go without going over, and how many times I'll have to roll my eyes during the Homily.

david

on Edit: spelling

[LDS Jock]

5. Greek Orthodox Church

I only have one to go by, the one I have visited regularly is fairly liberal. I don't know whether that is a true indication of the Greek Orthodox churches nationwide or not. The one I'm familiar with seems more concerned with Christian values than politics. If you are looking for a new church home, I suggest the Episcopalian Church. Some common ground with the Catholics, but to my knowledge not turning political. I think you might find a better spiritual home there.

[lovedems]

6. All of this is happening at the totally worst time for me.

My oldest son will be receiving his First Communion May 2 (this Sunday). I have always liked our Msgr. He hasn't really struck me as the ultra conservative type. However, last week I learned that he would deny Dick Durbin communion! (Our 4 kids attend parochial school)

I am soooooo torn because on the one hand I want to share my sons first communion with him but on the other hand my social values (exactly like yours stated in your 3rd paragraph) are important to me and I feel this need to go to communion and state, "I am a pro-choice catholic, therefor I am not worthy in your eyes your receive". I want to protest and share with my son at the same time!

I am soooooo mad that all of this is happening but worst of all, the timing totally sucks too!

Edit:
I always believed the Catholic Church taught that your concious reigns supreme and in all honesty, my social and economic values are good honest ones so there is room for people like us in the catholic church. I always say to myself that I wouldn't agree 100% with any religion or their teachings but Catholics, despite their faults believe in universal health care and taking care of the vulnerable in society.

[4_Legs_Good]

15. Ugh! That's a hard situation...

When kids get involved, it gets even stickier! My son is almost 2 and he was baptized Catholic, and I would have a harder time switching religions because of that.

Your problem is even tougher, though. I personally wouldn't pass up Communion even in protest. I try to look past the individual priest to the sacrament itself, but I can certainly understand where you are coming from.

I have a similar problem (though easier) with something we have in the L.A. Archdiocese called "Together in Mission". It's a diocesean-wide fund raiser to help subsidize parishes and schools that don't have enough $. Now while I'm all for helping out parishes, I'm actually not a proponent of Catholic Schools (or any private schools) because I'm so pro-public school. Also Mahoney is notoriously right-winged, and I don't want to put any more money in his pocket. But if a certain parish doesn't meet its goal, the parish itself has to fork out the dough, so they've got you in a tough spot, 'cause I really do like our parish right now. What to do, what to do?

Good luck with your choice! I wish I could offer more advice...

david

[lovedems]

16. Thanks!

I decided that I am not going to protest communion at any date. I believe my values are good ones and it is also a good lesson for my sons. I want them to be good catholics but I also want them to be thoughtful. I don't by any means want them to embrace a social issue based on what the church tells them but instead what THEY think is right.

Like I said above, I have always believed that my concious is my guide and I can take communion with good concious because it feels right to me even though it is in conflict with my Msgr. I really love our parish and I love the school. I also love my values and ideals and as a result of the latest actions, I really struggled. But, I will take communion with my son this sunday and I will do it with good heart and with pride! The rest of the pro-choice, catholic democrats in my family intend to do the same thing. (I can't tell you how many calls I got this past week from my family "what are we going to do! Pro-choice Catholics shouldn't take communion!)

I am sorry about your dilemma! Hopefully you will find a parish that suits your needs. I know there is one out there.

[Jokerman]

7. My Mom & The Catholic Church

Mom was raised an Irish Catholic but at age nineteen she found herself married to an abusive asshole. In spite of the church's stance on divorce, she finally left her first husband and was thrown out of the church.

Thirty years later, after remarrying and raising three kids, she returned to the church and had her first marriage annulled.

Although she remained a member of the catholic church until the day she died, she was also a card carrying member of the ACLU, NOW and NARAL. She marched on Washington for womens rights several times over the years.

She loved the catholic church but knew from personal experience that church leaders were not infallible.

[Fenris]

8. My grandmother is 84 years old

For as long as she has lived she has attended Mass at least once a week; prays when she wakes up, before she goes to bed, and before meals; sings in the local Church choir; and has a faith that is unwavering. My grandfather was the same way. But he was also a liberal, being a member of the factory-working class, and participated in a great many strikes during his working life. I cannot be certain about his opinion of the Church contraception ban or abortion ban, but he did have 5 children, so I'm inclined to believe he practiced some form of contraception after 1960.

A few years ago, my grandmother came down with my other grandparents, and on Sunday I decided that I would be polite and respectful and attend Mass. Not being religious myself, I had to push myself to do it, but it was for my grandmother, mostly. The priest only spoke briefly; the Deacon, however, spoke at great length about how contraception and abortion were sinful and how people who use in vitro fertilization were creating a child out of selfishness and not out of their love of God. I was so angry by the end of his "sermon" that I left fifteen minutes early and sat in the car.

When everyone got back to the car, I was surprised when the subject of the sermon came up how they were taken aback by it. My grandmother said she didn't agree with what he said, and my other grandmother and grandfather said that they didn't think it was right, and their evangelical Christians. Which is understandable: my aunt and uncle were only able to have children through in vitro fertilization.

I came across a chart in my high school government textbook that showed which parties Catholics tend to support. Over 50% supported Democrats.

If "good Catholics" can disagree with Rome over the Iraq war, then good Catholics should be able to disagree with Rome over contraception and abortion.

[Warpy]

10. They can, and they do, and that was my point

...and the church teaches people to respect what their consciences are telling them, or at least it did ages ago when I was in Catholic school.

Some poeple choose to stay, and honor the history and the spirituality that manage to remain despite the antics of the hierarchy. Some move on to more congenial denominations, realizing that what they put into the collection plate could find itself in the coffers of Operation Rescue or Opus Dei against their wishes. I think most are torn between the two.

The angriest I ever saw my Irish Catholic mother was when on very stuffed shirt, full of himself priest (who later left the priesthood in disgrace after an affair with a female parishoner was discovered) gave a sermon about how the only place for women in the church was cleaning it. My mother was literally shaking with rage, but it took her another 30 years to leave. The pull of that church can be very powerful, and I don't think any of us can second guess anybody for either staying or leaving.

Whatever you decide, if it's in accordance with that little voice inside you, it will be the right decision.

[4_Legs_Good]

14. The *worst* sermon I ever heard...

... was one year ago, when I was visiting in Connecticut. The sermon compared the Iraqis to the Israelites after God freed them from Egypt, and how there was all this fighting because they were like children. It was insulting to EVERYONE in the scenario, except, of course, the USofA, which is equated with God. Insane. Then the kicker was that all priests were supposed to read a letter from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops about the War and how it was morally ambiguous at best. The priest read it and then kinda tossed it and said "For whatever that's worth."

Oooh, and there was another awful one after the 2000 election but before the 2000 Selection where the priest (who replaced the Newman Chaplain at my old University) babbled on like a drunken man about how George Bush was going to save the country for Christianity. It was GAWD AWFUL. (as if the Country wasn't already more than safe enough for Christianity!)

And then there was a few weeks ago when we had a visiting priest who spent most of the mass yammering on about how staying until the end of Mass was far more important than anything else you could possibly do, and if you left early you were Judas, and he encouraged everyone to take a look at the people standing next to them so that if they left before Mass was over you could know that they were Judas. It was HORRIFIC, and his sermon wasn't much better.

david

[Iris]

12. oh. The deacons. Don't get me started on that.

Lay people (MEN) trained to do priestly duties as an attempt to continue the ban on female priests.

[Iris]

11. There is a group called "A Call to Action" that

works to make changes within the church.

Me? I have always been in congregations with liberal priests including one who would admit in small groups to being pro-choice. But when he left and another beloved, free-thinking priest became ill and left our parish, it went downhill fast.

I've attended the Episcopal Church a few times and believe that my husband and I will eventually become members of one of the many Episcopal Churches in our area.

Good luck with whatever you do. I admire people who can stay. The last straw for me was when I went to the Atlanta Diocese website and read the sermon the Bishop gave on right-to-life Sunday - he pretty much said there's no excuse for an abortion, not even when the mother will die as a result of a pregnancy or childbirth.

[4_Legs_Good]

13. I had a bishop once tell us that God is pro-choice

and, of course, to me at least, it's true. He was one of the Holiest people I ever met (again, in my estimation). He, of course, has left the priesthood now under questionable circumstances.

Another of the greatest Priests I ever knew committed suicide after being accused of sexual molestation some 20 years previous.

I gotta admit, it's all kinda wacky.

I will check out "A Call to Action". I know the Catholic Worker is a very progressive organization, and there are others, but I do believe that the Priesthood is becoming more conservative all the time. The old conservatives are dying off and retiring, but instead of new open minded thinkers we're getting (in the US) an influx of 2nd/3rd world priests who come from areas far more conservative, where the Church performs a different role and the Priesthood is a viable way of digging oneself out of poverty.

david

[Iris]

17. "influx of 2nd/3rd world priests who come from areas far more conservative

yes, that is exactly what happened in my parish. So now, I not only are we getting lectured about marriage by men who are not married, but the sermons are coming from people who are just now learning about our culture and have little idea about what is can be like living day to day here.

[4_Legs_Good]

19. I like it when we get traveling priests from 3rd world countries

Who give their sermons on the poverty of their own countries and how we have a social obligation to help them.

What I don't like is when they come and explain that we're not conservative enough, that other religions are evil, and that we need to fall back to pre-Vatican II times.

It seems to me that traveling and immigrant priests have soooo much to offer us in terms of getting us to learn how the rest of the world lives. It seems so pointless to focus on the fact that we should go to Confession every week or pray 500 Hail Marys every day, etc.

I gotta admit that I do get nervous when they talk about the "Church's mission" in their poor countries. While I'm 100% on board if that means alleviating poverty and suffering and bringing human rights. I'm leery that it means, rather, destroying cultures and converting the Heathen - ideas that I hope are more in the past.

david

[Iris]

29. I wholeheartedly agree.

I didn't mean to sound anti-3rd world priest! I do think they serve well in the capacity you describe.

I, too, have difficulty with the idea of the "Church's mission" especially given our world seems to keep getting smaller and smaller.

There was an interesting article in The Atlantic some months back about thre rise of fundamentalism throughout the world. While I know Catholicism isn't exactly fundamentalist, you might still find it interesting.

[4_Legs_Good]

35. of course, of course!

I was a bit nervous to post the "3rd world priest" stuff too, 'cause someone who hasn't been exposed to it might not understand. I just find it so weird that the 3rd world "breeds" such fundamentalism and conservatism.

Sounds like a great Atlantic article. I'll see if I can dig it up!

david

[cmf]

18. It's hard

We are lucky because we belong to a very apolitical parish. Not once have I heard a political homily. Likewise, the prayers of the faithful never mention abortion.

Anyway, I'd hesitate advising you to leave the church. Because if you leave, then that just means that there is one less liberal, and the conservatives have even more control. Look into some of the progressive Catholic groups the others have mentioned. I refuse to let the conservatives drive me out of my Church. At it's core, the Catholic Church embraces mostly what are considered very progressive causes. Just because a very vocal minority has pushed some issues to the top, doesn't mean that everyone feels that way. :hug:

[4_Legs_Good]

21. Thanks, I think you're right...

Plus as an ultra-liberal myself, it goes against my agitator-grain to just bail out.

As you say, I think the right is very organized. It's time, perhaps that we progressives got a little organized ourselves. I've been meaning to ask my priest for some time that if I bought a 100 issues of The Catholic Worker every quarter, if I could add them to the "literature" rack, which is currently filled with pro-life garbage and radical right publications like "The Tidings", "Our Sunday Visitor" and the "National Catholic Observer" or whatever it's called. Nery a copy of the "National Catholic Reporter" is to be found...

Organize, organize, organize.

I'm learning from statistics, that even weekly church goers like myself are more likely to be pro-choice than otherwise. I always feel like I'll be run out on a rail if I speak up, but I bet a lot of other people feel the same way.

david

[Padraig18]

20. Stay and fight! I intend to.

If you leave, it's one less liberal voice left. :hug:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. I got your back Padraig!

All the way!

[Padraig18]

27. Cool!

It's our church, too! :thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

22. A thought for those torn between faith and their own values: UU.

I was raised in two faiths, Catholic and Protestant. I love the beauty of Mass and ceremony, but my beliefs run right between Protestant and Catholic (yes, I'm often confused!).

But I have recently been attending a Unitarian Universalist house of worship and find it, well, wonderful. I;m able to feel at home with my theory of God and sit with others amid everything that makes spirituality beautiful and powerful and, indeed, desirable.

I have met Catholics,Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Quakers, Buddhists, Pagans, and even Wiccans at worship. There truly is a palpable spirit in the proceedings, regardless of what that spirit is called.

Generally very progressive in terms of social issues AND politics.

[4_Legs_Good]

23. I've been wondering about Unitarians for a while...

I don't know much. It sounds like it could, though, be an interesting addition...

david

[Iris]

30. I investigate that route as well!

It's not really very broad as far as the types of people - mostly affluent white people, but I think they make efforts to address that. And, since I mentioned I'm thinking about the Episcopal church, I guess the too many rich, white folks argument won't work.

But where UU fell flat for me was the lack of belief in an afterlife of any kind. I just couldn't really fathom that.

[SOteric]

32. Deleted.

[bobbieinok]

24. what happened to the excitement of Vatican II??

I was raised in the Southern Baptist church (extremely anti-Catholic) in OK. In college in TX I had a Catholic roommate my senior year. We had both taken history of religion our junior year and found we had a lot to talk about.

In grad school I got to know 2 guys from Notre Dame very well. One was bitter because his Catholic HS had only recommended him to Notre Dame - they refused to write recommendations to the various ivy league schools he was interested in.

He was very excited about the changes in the Church from Vatican II. I remember lots of non-Catholics were too.

Is it the present pope, who seems to have become extremely hard-core conservative as he's gotten older?

I have read several books by Hans Kueng who was forbidden to teach as a Catholic after writing his book on papal infallibility.

So, how do you interpret the increasingly ultra-conservative stance on many things??

[4_Legs_Good]

26. I like Vatican II

:)

I think a lot of the conservative thought has happened because the Church is, as ever, trying to grow, but it now has much more competition from other evangelizing denominations, and hot irons and torture chambers are kinda out of vogue at the moment for conversion. So the Church is competing in the third world in a conservative vein.

I don't really understand why this is the case and why inclusion of the third world doesn't make the Church more liberal instead, but it does seem to be the case. Perhaps it's because the "colonization" of these areas planted a very hard-core right wing sentiment in order to keep the original inhabitants in line, and now that conservatism is coming home to roost.

John Paul II is ultra conservative on some issues, but on others he is what we would consider insanely progressive in the US. Needless to say I agree with him there, but disagree elsewhere. The biggest problem is the Vatican's inability to separate church and state. I guess it's been in the Nation-controlling business for so long, it doesn't understand democracy.

JPII has, however stacked the deck of Cardinals, as I understand it, very well in favor of electing a very conservative replacment when the time comes, and that makes me nervous.

I really liked John Paul I. A shame he never got a chance to do anything. The Pope who smiled. He seemed like such a nice guy.

david

[Padraig18]

28. Except for reproductive and orientation issues...

... the Church is quite progressive; in many ways, it is 'far left', on most social-justice and economic issues. I'm not sure why the big hangup about 'pelvic' and 'affectational' issues... :shrug:

[candy]

31. I just walked out of the Catholic Church

This was thirty-five years ago (I was 35).

I thoroughly admire anyone who belongs to any church and truly believes in the teachings of that church,and that applies to many of my Catholic friends and relatives.

Find another church,one that better suits your needs and beliefs.

[SOteric]

33. Ultimately,

we Christians will stand in judgement and be asked to account for our beliefs and our actions according to those beliefs.

The leadership, the stewards of our church during the second World War took a chilling position with regard to the plight of the Jews. Given all I've come to know about Christ and his compassion that was a very wrong thing. If as a result of the perspective of the church at that time, a person had acted uncharitably toward a Jewish family, no part of me believes that the God I've walked with since my childhood would accept "The Pope and the Cardinals told me to" as excuse for reprehensible behaviour. We've been imbued with free will and with intelligence. If we believe in our hearts that a thing is wrong, Christ (who outranks the Pope) demands the we do what we know to be right.

In many places at various times and with regard to specific issues, the Church in Rome and the Church in America are more liberal and alternately more conservative. Our beloved retired Archbishop Hunthausen here in Seattle was as liberal a man of god as I've ever met. The Jesuit priests who work with and run the school where I teach are all but a small handful, liberal.

But politics and the church are two different issues and should ever remain so (however true it is that some aspects deeply intertwine). Regardless of our politics, we are called upon by God to act in ways that further our spirits, not our political agendas.

My family has a few assholes in it, and sometimes those folks even have a great deal of power and authority. I still have not changed my name and left the clan. Time changes everything, including who wields the power. My country is currently being run by a vast asshole conspiracy and I haven't packed up and left for Europe. I feel an obligation to guide my family, my country and my church in the ways I wholeheartedly believe to be right and honourable.

So too with the Catholic church. I stay because I feel the church needs a strong clear voice telling the catechuminates that Christ does not hate and does not teach hate or discrimination; that science is a gift from God and not an enemy of the spirit; that ignorance is not the fruit of a loving God; that we cannot and should not legislate spirituality. If the stewardship of the Catholic church believe that aborting a fetus is wrong, God would call us to change the hearts of individuals rather than legislate for masses.

:hug:

[4_Legs_Good]

34. Wow...

Very, very well said - thanks!

I guess, though, I'm kinda wondering what *would* I do if the Church denied me Communion because I'm pro-choice or pro-gay tolerance. If the choice is to be ostracized or find somewhere more me-friendly.

It's funny because ultimately, it's the teachings of the Church and Christ (and those who followed him - the Apostles and the saints) who have given me this sense of morality. I'm not pro-choice because it's politically efficacious for me or pro-taxation because I hate my money. It's all because of the moral lessons received by religious teachings - compassion, grace, tolerance etc. I can't and don't believe that these things are wrong.

Thanks again to everyone!

david