How should homeless folks outside of businesses be treated?

[Delano]

I live in San Francisco, which is famous for its huge numbers of completely bonkers homeless folks. You have to run a gauntlet through them just to get into a store or a fast-food joint. They're often aggressive, and sometimes threatening.

Apparently, the city of SF has not intention of ever doing anything about obnoxious vagrants. The tolerance and liberalism of this city is one of its strongest suits, but personally, I think they've let the homeless problem get out of hand. New York isn't nearly as bad.

This is such a wonderful town but it's sad that the homeless make it so squalid. There are certain storefronts that just REEK of urine. I've been homeless brriefly, and I did my best to keep clean, and would never piss in a place like that. At least find a bush (;)) away from foot traffic...


Also, I wonder why Clinton didn't try to reverse Reagan's decision to let all the mentally ill out of the hospitals to roam the streets? That was one of the worst things Reagan did, IMO.

Anyway, I don't know what the legality of it is (would be interested if anyone does know), but what should be done about it?

[Delano]

1. Tolerated no matter what? Even when they are harrassing customers?

Sometimes I think I'm on the wrong forum. That is NOT what a civil society is about. Being homeless doesn't give one a right to bug people trying to go about their business.

EDIT: I added an extra choice to differentiate between loitering and harrassing.

However, inside of a closed space like a restaurant, a person who hasn't washed in days or weeks IS harrrassing by his presence. It makes it nigh on impossible to finish your meal without getting sick from the stench.

[GOPisEvil]

2. Why don't we stop with the band-aid approach?

Let's get the homeless that are ill some help. That will resolve the majority of what you describe. Think about that $87 billion spent on Iraq. (And more to follow, of course.) How much good could that money be doing?

There will always be a certain amount of people that desire to reside on the streets, for whatever reason. As long as they aren't bothering people, leave them alone. If they are, then it's a police matter.

[wtmusic]

9. Good pt. Treating the symptom, not the problem

:thumbsup:

[Donkeyboy75]

33. I usually agree with you, GOP, but this poll isn't about that.

It's about what to do with the problem at hand. I agree there are better ways to fight the problem, but this is really a question of what to do here and now.

[wtmusic]

3. NY isn't nearly as bad, because of the weather

They would die of exposure if left outside

Not a simple problem, not a simple answer. Many places haul them off if they get complaints, probably not a bad solution. If they want to be peaceful most people don't mind having them around.

[bigwillq]

4. They should be treated equally and be tolerated by all

I love when the homeless folks ask me for money.

I respond by saying: "Hey, I was going to ask you for the same thing!"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Having belonged to a legal advocacy group for the homeless for years..it

really irks me to see this sentiment on a liberal web site...maybe we should just criminalize poverty so as to not inconvenience the bourgeoisies.

San Francisco is actually one of the WORST and most brutal cities to be homeless or poor in. For all the proclaimed liberalism and progressivism of the city, the problem you see when you walk down the street is due to years of neglect by San Franciscans to deal humanely with their homeless problem.

oh and for the record..on edit...I am wealthy and work with homeless women in tent cities and on skid row in LA to help them dress, interview for jobs and get on their feet. I know what I am talking about.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

8. I was just telling a friend....

... as we were coming back from KFOG's KABOOM when he glared at me for speaking to a homeless person.

"You know, I don't have to give them any change, but I don't have to give them any grief either. I always try to say 'I'm sorry but no' when I'm directly asked for a handout".

He just shrugged.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. With the cost of rent in the bay area, many people are a paycheck away

from joining them...not really wise to look down upon them too sternly.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

12. I shut my boss up once...

... we were sitting in our shared cubicle space...

He was spouting off after lunch about all the homeless around the area and how sickening it was and they should just 'get a job'.

I smiled and said 'Well, you can hire. Why don't you go put one to work?'.

He never said anything about the homeless again (at least in front of me)

[Delano]

15. Yeah, it's definitely not as simple as that.

Although there are some who look to be very healthy, 25 years old, sane and able to work, but they choose to stand there with a sign. It's hard for me to fathom that mindset. I'm usually more inclined to give a little to the handicapped, since I know how hard it would be to find work, especially in lower-skilled sectors, but I can't afford much. I gave $100 to Howard Dean last fall and that tapped me out for quite some time...

[Delano]

13. Like I said, I'm there. Dirt-poor myself.

And being homeless doesn't absolve you from consideration of the people around you. Toiletries are available in convenience stores, there is a way of bathing in a public restroom - I've done it.

I realize that the mentally ill are another story. I've lived in nothing but big cities with a lot of homeless for years, and yet the homeless here seem twice as crazy as those in other cities. I don't know if it's fallout from drugs in the 60s or what...

One time my wife and I were standing by a bus stop with our kids and I was reading the schedule when a homeless guy with a shopping cart full of wire clothes hangers started to threaten us and our kids- merely for having the nerve to be there. He was like "You. yeah you, motherfucker. 5 seconds." I was all "What?" and he goes "Five seconds. Get the fuck away from me before I kill you. I hate you. You motherfucking kids too. I'll kill them too."

Of course he didn't know me from Adam, he was just dangerously crazy. Why are people like this walking the streets?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. If someone breaks a law beyond being homeless...call the cops

No doubt some of it is due to drugs and alcoholism....but your post seems to criminalize the homeless themselves.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. Exactly. Not having a place to sleep is not a crime.

Or at least it shouldn't be. Harassing people, public urination, etc. are all illegal and those laws should be enforced.

[Delano]

10. Really? I understand that they have gotten a $400 stipend from the city

for years. That's a lot more generous than most cities. I personally am glad mayor Newsom is changing it to a housing voucher. Also, as deranged and aggressive as many of the homeless I've encountered have been, it's pretty difficult to respond kindly to them (although I do, when they are nice.) I agree that it sucks to be poor here. I am poor, and can barely get by working my ass off. That's what makes me resent these folks harrassing me everywhere I go. Go knock on doors in Pacific Heights dammit, I can barely feed my own kids and I'm drowning in debt!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Read this

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/hatecrimes03.html

I also am suspect of the distribution..not that 400$ a month goes far. I suspect that if more focus were placed on drug treatment, outreach programs for the mentally ill, etc...we would see an improvement.

[2Design]

36. Glad you are helping

When I passed a homeless person in San Fran a couple of years ago, I had a french loaf of San fran bread, I broke it in half and gave them the other half....they said thank you....that is all I can do.

When I see them I say a pray, it could be me.

It is hard, not to get angry, but the anger is misplaced. You have no idea what happened to bring them there. The propoganda says drugs. Sometimes that is true. A lot of times it is not.
Our system has failed.

Sometimes, I give money.
I follow my intuition.
It is hard not to have a multitude of feelings come up. Across the whole range.

[sandnsea]

6. Increase community treatment

That is what was supposed to happen. I think it was ruled against their civil rights to keep them locked up in institutions. I mean really, why should they be forced to live in an institution if the worst thing they do is pee in an inappropriate place. If they aren't a danger, they should have some right to freedom of movement. But if we'd taken the money we were spending on institutions and spent it on community based home treatment, we wouldn't be having this problem. I know they got more funding under Clinton because the local organization was in a panic about funding cuts under Bush. But we need to figure out that we've got to find moral solutions to complicated problems.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

7. I thought Newsom & co have already passed stronger....

measures against aggressive panhandling etc?

But then again, unless people are going to take the time to track down a cop and point out the offender, what good is it going to do?

The Care not Cash is being started also. Will it help? Who knows.

The thing about the homeless is that everyone can find things to complain about them... but ways to actually 'cure it' is another.

It's bad that you were homeless, but let's remember a large percentage of these people are homeless because of mental or drug problems, not because they have no other place.

[DEMVET-USMC]

14. Homelessness is a serious problem. I `have been homeless a

number off times in my life. I also know many of these homeless can be more than annoying at times. I would like to see this problem addressed by the Kerry Administration. Yes it will cost money but many of these homeless can be rehabilitated if given a chance and become productive members of society again. Some cannot and housing would have to be provided prermanantly for them. Many Nations especially in Eurpope have come up with viable solutions to this problem We could look at their programs for some guidence. This is a tragic problem wich can be resolved. With this so called Globilization and it`s resulting loss of well paying jobs I believe it will only get worse as time goes by. ...Oscar

[Delano]

17. Yes. I hope it happens.

I know my question is much more of a short-term thing. I get the feeling that many of the homeless advocates feel that we should be subjected to abuse from the homeless until something is done. (And I realize that if they are merely whisked away "somewhere else" that it makes it that much easier for folks to turn a blind eye.

But the thing is, it's mostly us liberals who have to put up with the homeless. We're the ones who prefer living in big cities. The rightwingers who couldn't give a damn about the homeless mostly live out in suburbs, in gated communities, or at least in trailer parks... They scarcely see a homeless, except occasionally from their car.

[DEMVET-USMC]

24. I do not feel you should be subjected to abuse:That one situation you

described about: you, your wife and children being threatened by a deranged homeless person is one in which the police should have intervened. The guy belongs in a mental institution where he might be rehabilitated. If he can`t he should stay there. I feel sorry for you and yes event him. Desperate people sometimes lose all sense of decency. You should not have to suffer for it. Maybe you should move to a safer place. I know that is not easy as I am in the middle of doing just that and it pisses me off that I have to. Good Luck and Take Care, ...Oscar

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. Other: They should be treated with respect.

Whether or not someone has a place to sleep at night should not be the determining factor in how they are treated.

For example, you mention public urination. That is, I'm sure, illegal in SF, irregardless of whether or not the person urinating has a home.

[Delano]

19. It probably is, but if you really have no place to go...

At least find a secluded bush. (Unfortunately, the many of the city's public restrooms cost a quarter to use)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. Well I guess I didn't express myself well.

My point is, the behaviors that offend people, for example, public urination, aggressive panhandling, etc., should be discouraged through consistent enforcement of common sense laws, rather than specifically targeting homeless people for state sponsored harassment.

[1monster]

21. They should be treated kindly and with dignity.

Educate yourself on the services available for homeless people in San Francico and California and offer that information and help in accessing those services to those homeless who cross your path.

Always remember: There but for the grace of (choose one or more) God, Fate, Karma, Other go I.

[Senior citizen]

23. When I was a kid

we were a rich country, and India was a poor country. One of my grade school teachers told us how bad it was in India. There were people so poor they had to sleep in the streets, while the Maharajahs got their weight in gold every year. People just walked by the homeless and ignored them.

Well, I doubt if any maharajah, in his wildest dreams, ever imagined the wealth of a fortune 500 CEO in this country today. And if we didn't have more people in prison than India does, we'd probably have more homeless than they do.

The answer, of course, is a more equitable distribution of wealth. Instead of taxing the peasants and giving it all to the maharajahs, you tax the maharajahs and give that money back to the peasants. That way you build a strong, solid middle class, and can fund low-income housing, homeless shelters, and social services.

I voted "other." What I'd do about the problem of homeless who are disruptive to businesses or neighborhoods, is find out who is claiming them as an exemption on their income tax, and tell that person that from now on they either support their exemption the way they claim to have been doing, or go to jail. If the person is a veteran, I'd tell the Defense Department that they may not process a single recruit until the homeless vet is fed, housed, and had all other needs taken care of, including whatever medical treatment or detox might be necessary. In the event that a person wasn't a veteran and nobody was claiming them as an exemption, I'd expect social services to step in, using the tax monies we'd gotten from the maharajahs, I mean CEO's, and do whatever was needed.

But what do I know--I was only homeless for 20 years.

:evilgrin:

[Rationality]

25. If they're harassing others or defacating/urinating on property, move 'em

I'm from Gainesville FL and panhandling is becomming a problem over here as well. Especially around the banks downtown, I am constantly confronted by a homeless guy demanding money from me. If they're not doing that, they're right next to the ATM pissing only a few feet from my shoe, and this aggrevates me tremendously. At the plaza near the courthouse they don't bother me too much even though I frequently pass by. Perhaps it's just the bank? I dunno... but as bad as their conditions are, the sane ones can certainly get out of that condition if they had better control of their money and tried to get a job. Even if they're working for minimal wage, getting such a position is very easy where I'm at, and in short order you can get some kind of shelter with it, without having to beg for money from college students who aren't making much money either.--pardon my rant.

[Senior citizen]

31. A common misconception

"Even if they're working for minimal wage, getting such a position is very easy where I'm at, and in short order you can get some kind of shelter with it, without having to beg for money...."

Yes, many of the people in our homeless shelters are employed full time at minimum wage jobs. (One recent report said 40% were employed.) The problem is that minimum wage enables them to eat and keep themselves clean and neat enough to work, and pay busfare to and from work, but does not allow them to save up enough for 1st & last month's rent plus deposit so that they could move out of the shelter. If shelters weren't so overcrowded that they had to turn people away (many shelters are seasonal and only open part of the year anyway), they could just continue working by sleeping at the shelter. But if you don't get lucky with the lottery for shelter beds that night, or had to work late and couldn't get in line early enough, chances are that you aren't going to get much sleep (not that it is easy to sleep at the average shelter anyway), and will jeopardize your job. Of course, since you are working, you can simply pay for a hotel or motel room for the night(s) you can't get into the shelter, but there goes two month's savings towards moving out.

People who can live at home or stay with friends while looking for work, and then continue to do so until they have enough for their own place, just cannot know that they would not have been able to accomplish the same feats of obtaining employment and housing without first having had housing. It's another Catch-22, and homeless people who come up against enough of them, tend to stop trying, stop caring, seek oblivion, become belligerent, and go insane.

[2Design]

59. you are so right minimum wage is ridiculous....wages are from the 60s

We still have 60s wages and 90s prices....people talk about how they worked and did this or that...but when the repubs refuse to bring wages in line with a living wage...people do not have a chance...

$5hr x 40 = $200 x 4 weeks = $800 a month before taxes. Rents are $600 to $1200 a month depending on the city you live in. Some of the lower rents are in very unsafe areas. The street in a nice area feels better than a apartment in a drug infested apartment building.

Now maybe that person can work two jobs. $1600 a month for 80 hours of work. After taxes they have maybe $1300 to buy rent, food, utilities, maybe some little extras. They have no life and can not get out of the life they are in. They need to develop skills. Learn computers. Find some other job that pays closer to $10 an hour just to make ends meet and pay off bills.

If they are not clean, job interviews become tough.
Welfare to work moms, is another one of those catch 22. If they do good enough to not need subsidies, they can't afford the child care.

With the bottom wages staying stagnant for almost 20 years while CEO salaries have risen about 1000 times, we have a HUGE gap happening.

No aggressive homeless people are really difficult to take. They are desperate. I assume they see no way out. They don't fit in. For whatever reason, they don't see a way out.

Help is great but we need to some how do so much more....

This post is not aimed at your answer but more to expand on it. More of the reasons why.....Raising wages for the bottom half of the population would help a lot.

Corporations and governments have redistributed money to the top 10% of the population - they have about 80% of the money. They have no interested in helping others. Not a good thing....

[lyrical di]

27. dignity and respect, yes

I was greatly impressed one day when a colleague of mine was showing me around a famous Nashville, TN landmark where she works part-time and a homeless person was lying on the sidewalk. She greeted him with, "Good morning, my friend" handed him her coffee and reminded him to get to the shelter area so he could get a good job for the day.
As the step-parent of mentally ill children, I care deeply about their prospects in the future. We have spent much money on medicines, treatments, etc. and at times have simply needed to hospitalize them. It is hideously expensive, usually short-term, and they aren't cured nor even capable of functioning without a great deal of help when they are released. It is insurance that determines when they are tired of "curing" them, not the realities of life.
For adults, the prospect is worse. We have had to have a court record for the 12 year old so that he has a paper trail and can get medical care someday when he turns 18.
I volunteer for the homeless with Room at the Inn. I sleep in a church basement one night a week during winter season on a thin mattress pad as the innkeeper. Actually, I seldom sleep because homeless people are often ill, coughing, and need a friendly ear. My other sons have attended with me and were amazed that their pre-conceptions of homeless people were so far off. They were sometimes mentally ill, sometimes drug abusers, sometimes ex-cons, sometimes victims of domestic abuse, sometimes good people who lost one paycheck and were evicted during a winter storm. Many were educated, cared about society, and were politically active.
Most respect the rules and laws of society and recognize that they need help to get jump-started again. They often were most aggressive toward any rule-breakers and would be horrified at anyone threatening others with coat hangers. Some have told me of how they turned in others so they would get treatment.
Sorry this is so long, but I care passionately about the plight of homeless in our country. My stepsons could be there someday.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Do not apologoze for effectively countering the thoughtlessness

expressed on this thread with a valid, compassionate look at the issue.

Thankyou for your long post...feel free to make it longer :thumbsup:

BTW...do you sing around town in Nashville? If so we probably have a few mutual acquaintances....I work on a big show associated with NAMM there every year.

[Delano]

50. Minor point...

The guy who threatened us HAD a cart full of hangers (I have no idea what for), but he was not using them to threaten. He didn't brandish any weapon other than a very insane glare, but I wasn't going to hang out there to find out what he did have.

As for your stepsons' eventual fate - have a little faith in them, eh?

[Lou_C]

29. They should be treated like a human being

[KamaAina]

30. If someone threatens you, that is a crime.

It does not matter whether the person is homeless or lives in a mansion in Sea Cliff. If someone threatens you, call the cops.

The sad thing is, being arrested would actually help this person get "three hots and a cot", for a day or two anyway. Thanks a heap, Reagan! :puke: There were supposed to be community services provided for these people, not just a one-way ticket to the streets, remember? Oh, right, guess not. :evilgrin:

[NightTrain]

32. What the hell is wrong with you people?!

This is supposed to be at a discussion board for liberals and progressives. Much of what I've seen in this thread could just as easily have appeared at Free Republic, fer chrissake! :grr:

Part of what radicalized me was the unbelievably large number of homeless people I saw while working in downtown Hartford, CT, during Reagan's eight-year nap. I simply couldn't believe the right-wingers' claim that those people were all homeless by choice, particularly when I hadn't seen any of them during the Jimmy Carter presidency. So I did some research on homelessness, which led me to research other social and political issues. And that research has yet to stop.

Without knowing it, Hartford's homeless population transformed me from a young, self-absorbed Generation X-er who simply followed his father's conservative beliefs, to the borderline Marxist I am today. I also give any homeless person who asks me a buck or two, even when I can't afford it. Hell, I'm only two or three paychecks away from becoming homeless myself!

So kindly pull your heads out of your asses and have a little compassion for people who aren't as fortunate as your perfect selves. Thank you!

[lyrical di]

34. here here

I often wonder when I hear some of those responses from self-righteous people. They can't imagine being in the situation of others so believe themselves better.

I too give a buck when asked. I also have taught my children to give entire meals (we buy an extra), give cards with our names as introduction to services and churches, and take people to job interviews to help restart their life.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. A fucking MEN!

[Deja Q]

37. Agreed!!!!!

The root post of this thread is appalling, forgive me my candidness.

The homeless and mentally ill are a symptom of this greedy godless society.

And the neo-cons take great delight in making many more homeless. They want a two-class system: Rich and poor.

[Delano]

43. Hmmm.

"The root post of this thread is appalling, forgive me my candidness."
Your candidness is fine - exactly which part appalls you?

"The homeless and mentally ill are a symptom of this greedy godless society."
Actually, the US is one of the most religiously fanatic societies on earth. I'd venture for many, religion has provided them an excuse to ignore to poor and destitute. How many times have YOU heard the "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day" story?

"And the neo-cons take great delight in making many more homeless. They want a two-class system: Rich and poor."

Well, and I agree with you there too, but what does that have to do with everyday folks not being able to move about the city due to being harrassed by homeless folk?

I voted for Clinton, I voted for Gore, I supported Dean and Kucinich in the primaries, giving money I DON'T HAVE. I do occasionally give to panhandlers, when the spirit hits me, and I don't look on them with general disdain, UNLESS they are aggressive, rude, violent, or disruptive.

Your attitude is just "suck it up until utopia comes". It must be really nice in the hermetically sealed gated community you live in. Or maybe you actually LIKE being bugged by panhandlers all the time. Or maybe you're in one of those towns where everybody drives everywhere, and you can just speed by them when you're not in the mood. I don't have that luxury here.

[cally]

38. Absolutely right

I live near SF and this is absurd. Anyone running a business arpind here needs to think about how they appear. "So kindly pull your heads out of your asses and have a little compassion for people who aren't as fortunate as your perfect selves. Thank you!"

[Delano]

41. I'm a lot less than 2 or 3 paychecks from homelessness.

And I have 2 kids to feed in one of the most expensive cities there is. I occasionally give a little, but I don't feel I should feel guilty for not doing so, especially when so many are so wealthy, and nearly untaxed.

I disagree that the comments here have been "freeperish". You probably think that about me. Well pardon me for giving a damn about MY quality of life and not wanting to suck it up EVERY TIME I go outside. A agree with every post advocating more social services, more shelters, more help. This shit should NOT be left to the poor & working class (who are most often accosted by the homeless) It SHOULD be done by the government, and the wealthy should pay a proportionally higher amount of taxes to finance it.

But in the meantime, as long as our government is run by an idiot son of an asshole, who will never do anything about homelessness, It's San Francisco, for pete's sake - it's not like anybody here voted for the bastard. Sometimes, I really just wish the homeless would all go en masse to Wlnut Creek, Tiburon, whatever comfy enclaves that vote repuke and have plenty of money, and hassle THOSE people, and maybe then they'll be motivated to start voting differently.

[noiretextatique]

49. it's a hassle to be homeless

hungry and desperate too. especially in a society that is utterly contemptous of those living in poverty. it is indeed a sad commnetary on our society that we tolerate such savage inhumanity towards those who are least able to care for themselves.
i understand your frustration having worked in the financial district for many years. i now work in downtown berkeley and there are quite a few homeless people there also. the vast majority of them have some from of mental illness. and you are correct...you don't see these folks in downtown walnut creek or other wealthy enclaves.
it's tough to have to deal with this on a daily basis...and it's even tougher hanging on to your own humanity when doing so.

[Forkboy]

47. I usually skip these threads

I've been homeless and the asshole nature of some people in these threads drives me batty (short trip).I opened this one and saw manyof the dumbass comments I expected.

Thank you,NightTrain,for your post.It means a lot to me,and I'm sure many others.

[NightTrain]

60. No need to thank me, Forkboy. After what I saw in this thread, I...

...couldn't NOT reply. :pals:

[Vladimir]

52. Yes and anyway

treating the symptoms will achieve nothing here. With any luck, enough people will be inconvinienced eventually for something to be done about the illness...

[Beaker]

39. it depends on the type of business, and the type of homeless "folks"...

and i very rarely carry cash anymore- i've become accustomed to using a debit card just about everywhere i can, so giving money to them is often not possible.

If there's a beligerant wino outside a business, physically accosting/interfering with the customers, they should obviously be dealt with by authorities...if they're simply panhandling peacefully, unless there's an ordinance against it, they should be allowed(but not on private property, without consent of the owner)

[BlueStateGirl]

40. It depends. Quite a few homeless drug addicts hang out around

my bar.

Some of them are dangerous criminals. I've been harassed, followed to my car, screamed at for not giving enough change, and physically accosted. You lose your right to have me treat you with dignity when you slam me into a wall and try to search my apron pockets.

Obviously, this is not every homeless person in Philadelphia. Or every homeless person that hangs in front of my bar, but unfortunately it has effected the way I deal with many of them now. I can't afford to be as open and , frankly, niave , about it as was.

There are a few a know by name, that I'll gvie food and unclaimed jackets from lost and found . This past winter I carried extra blankets in the trunck of my car and passed them out.

But when I am closing up and there are three or four , obviously high homeless guys hanging around the door , I'm sorry I'm calling the cops to move them. If it makes me less of a liberal, well that sucks for me.

[Delano]

44. Thanks. Sometimes I wonder what bubble some of these folks live in.

I'll never forget the time a homeless guy asked for money, and I told him, no, but I'd pay for whatever he wanted from the convenience store. Instead of nourishing food, he got coffee and a donut. I asked if he didn't want some real food, he said no. (I still paid)

Or the other time when the grossly obese panhandler woman came up to me saying she was starving(!). Since I had a bag lunch from Mc Donald's that I hadn't touched, I offered it to her. She said indignantly "I'm a vegetarian!" and waddled away.

I realize there are a million different stories of how people ended up in such a state, and our economic structure obviously doesn't give everybody a fair shot, but there are a lot of homeless out there who are every bit as much of an asshole as Bush & Cheney, just without all the power.

[noiretextatique]

48. what do you expect?

if you want people to be grateful, then perhaps you shoud examine your motivations for giving. even an obese, homeless woman can make the choice to be vegitarian, even if you don't like it. and if someone who is living on the street prefers a coffee and donut to whatever you think he should eat...why do you care?
i hear people bitch all the time about homeless people using money to buy alcohol or drugs, and frankly if i were in that position, i might do the same. sleeping on the cold ground might not seem as bad if i could just pass out.

[Angelus]

42. They should be forced to leave if they are bothering...

customers, and by force if necessary.

If I owned a small business, and I had the homeless bothering customers outside of my store, I'd tell them to leave. If they didn't, I'd call the cops, no questions asked. I would be trying to run a business and earning money so I can live.

Don't get me wrong...if there were homeless who were outside of my store and they didn't bother anyone, I'd let them stay, just as long as they didn't bother anyone.

45. Yes, This IS a Liberal/Progressive Forum, BUT

There is nothing liberal or progressive about being browbeaten for not tolerating people disrupting a business.

The question was simple. If homeless people are disrupting a business, or annoying customers, they should be made to leave.

Being homeless is a tragedy, I've been there. I know what its like to sleep under a bush, or on the roof of a public restroom. I know what its like to not know where your next meal is coming from, or how your going to get a fucking job when you don't have a god damned address!

I also know that basic courtesy demands that you don't mess with the customers of any business, because that business may be all that keeps another person from joining you on that street corner.

Would anyone allow a tshirt vendor to set up a table by the door of your coffee shop or bookstore? Probably not. But, if I own a business I'm supposed to feel guilty and allow a pandhandler to sit by my door and hit up all my customers?

I don't buy it.

To those who think this is an intolerant attitude, I say, yep, you're right. I have no tolerance for over agressive begging.

Have I always felt this way? Nope!

I learned to be this way from living in San Francisco, where my 10 year old son would get hassled by panhandlers, where pandhandler's were not always homeless, where walking three block down Market street meant that you got asked 15-20 times for spare change. Where offering a panhandler food instead of cash might as easily get you a "Thank You" as a "Fuck You." Where giving someone 50 cents might piss them off and have them call you cheap because you didn't bring out the green stuff.

It wasn't always like that, but it was bad enough to take the shine off of my pretty little tolerant attitude.

There was one homeless man who lived on a corner near Polk and Braodway. He NEVER asked for change, and would not accept it if offered, but often bummed a cigarette. He was always wearing the same clothes, but never looked dirty or smelled bad. He had some self respect. His name was Bob, and locals called him Bob the Bum.

I often talked to him, asdked him why he never panhandled. He said he didn't need the money. He didn't want what money could buy, except smokes, so he bummed smokes. He lived on the street because he liked it that way. He got food stamps and a housing voucher. he used the food, but not the housing. He said that in housing, he was much more likely to lose his stamps, or his clothes, while he was asleep. He was safer, and happier, on the street.

He was a good person. I hope you're still safe and happy Bob :)

Homeless people are people first, homeless second. Panhandlers are another breed. Many homeless people beg, but not all beggars are homeless. In San Francisco, panhandling is a job...no - it's often a scam.

I have immense compassion for the homeless. I feel very little for panhandlers, because it is so hard to trust them, or to care much about a person who is so obviously contemptuous of yourhelp if it falls below their standard of profitability.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. The LA TImes forced me to think about you and this thread this AM

From the Ranks to the Street
Nearly a fourth of the homeless are veterans. Reasons vary, but many fail to adjust to life's randomness after the order of military service.

snip

This is the often-unacknowledged postscript to military service. According to the federal government, veterans make up 9% of the U.S. population but 23% of the homeless population. Among homeless men, veterans make up 33%.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-veterans29may29,1,7619786.story?coll=la-home-headlines

I am thinking of my aunt who passed away last year this morning...God love her. My cousin (female) was in the Navy in the 70's. During her service, she became addicted to heroin...very easy to obtain ON BASE at the time. Well...back then, the Navy put males through detox, but provided NO services for women. She found my cousin walking the streets of San Diego prostituting for drug money...fellow servicemen were pimping for her.

My aunt (being the wife of an entertainer with ties to Hollywood and the press) threatened to make it a HUGE political issue that NO detox services were available to women...she singlehandedly forced the NAVY, via her celebrity to make the same services available for women. The women's restroom at the Miramar hospital facility was turned into a rehab ward until they got their shit together. Then a women's facility opened. My cousin got dried out..she was eventually HONORABLY discharged by the Navy.

Of course, in the late 80's Reagan cancelled ALL rehab services for drug addicted veterans and the policy became to DISCHARGE them and toss them out on the street.

So ...thanks to Reagan once again...the US military can turn human beings into animals but not provide the necessary services to reintroduce them into society (ya know....kinda like we do with PRISONS).

[Delano]

51. Okay, this is a great anecdote...

...but rather off subject. The thread is not about ALL HOMELESS PEOPLE. Just the very aggressive ones.

And it's pretty obvious to anyone who's been alive that long: pre-Reagan: almost no homeless problem post-Reagan: massive homeless problem.

It's a shame that kids today are growing up conditioned to see homelessness as a fact of life, totally numbed to it like the wealthy folks in Mexico who glide through desparately poor colonias in their bulletproof SUVs to their fortified mansions with nary a thought for the dirty, hungry millions surrounding them.

I hate that we are turning into Mexico. (and I'm not talking about the influx of hispanic immigrants)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. I get what you are saying...but I also think that many of these agrressive

homeless may very well have been in the military where they LEARN aggression as a way of life.

I also don't object to making sure that laws are not broken...I have had my share of run-ins with aggressive homeless people..but they are not the vast majority of homeless people. We have them here in LA as well.

If you go back and read your opening post..it lends itself to broad brush impressions. The poster Senior Citizen above makes a great point regarding your assertion that America is adopting third world practices.

On another languaging note: Notice how SHE makes her point regarding those third world practices versus how you did (Mexico) which you then promptly qulified so as to NOT lend yourself to misinterpretation.....it isn't really Mexico you are making a point about so much as the third world gap between rich and poor that leaves people on streets. Language matters...hers invokes the actual class struggle...yours invokes race/nationality where it isn't necessary and actually takes away from the point by making people go there (as you advise them not to)

[Delano]

56. I suppose - I guess not everybody grew up on the border as I did.

On occasion when I visited wealthy areas of Cd. Juarez, and later, Tijuana, I was flabbergasted at the contrast between the wealthy areas and the rest of the city.

I felt that using that image painted a more vivid picture of where we as a nation are going than just speaking obliquely about "the class struggle".

But Mexico is not a common point of reference for everyone, I realize...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Thanks for getting it. BTW, Cuidad Juarez is a great example of this

Looking at El Paso on one side of the 10 and Mexico on the other as you drive through. I get your point too.

[demosincebirth]

53. I give when I can, but...

won't give if I'm hassled.

[Angelus]

55. I don't understand why someone's liberal ideas are attacked...

here in this thread. If a person is outside of your business and he/she is bothering customers, why not escort them away from the premises, homeless or not? The point of a business is to attract customers and make money, and if homeless people are scaring them away, you aren't going to make the money you deserve.

It's simple logic. :shrug:

[Iris]

58. That's an interesting thought about Clinton

I wonder how easy that would be? I wonder it would be difficult to get the mentally ill to agree to be re-committed?

BTW - I didn't vote. I live in Atlanta,which has a huge homeless population. My husband and I never put anything that could be useful to someone (like food that we simply don't want) directly in our dumpster because inevitably someone will come along and take it. We also put a lot of our old clothes out there rather than take them to thrift stores.

But sometimes, I simply get sick of seeing my own garbage seeping out of a hole ripped into the bag and so I'm not always sympathetic to the plight of the homeless. I would not want to be in charge of making policy in this area, but I try to help out when I can.

[2Design]

61. good link about some homeless people you might want to help

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/20040529/ts_latimes/fromtherankstothestreet

[2Design]

62. here is the du post that brought me to the story

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x591390