Alright, I've had it! Give me everything immoral that's in the Bible.

[LostInAnomie]

I am so tired of the fucking fundies. I live in a particularly bible thumping community where the RW christians have been in an uproar lately, and I am tired of it. Not only are they insulting every non christian religion, but agnostics and atheists as well. So I am looking for a little ammunition here.

Tell me about any slaughtering of people, approved stoning, selling people into slavery, polygamy, sexism, or anything else that can be construed as immoral in the Bible.

Any church sanctioned immorality would be helpful as well.

[King Of Paperboys]

1. Doesn't matter

No matter what you point to, they say "Oh, that was negated by the New Testament."

What the fuck? God's Word can be overturned?

Don't try to teach the pigs to sing.

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

2. Yet

They continually point to the Old Testament when it suits them i.e. same sex marriage and the death penalty.

[LostInAnomie]

4. According to Jesus the old is as good as the new

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[denverbill]

7. I've heard that argument myself.

Supposedly, Christ created a 'new covenant' that negated all of the Old
Testament's proscriptions against things like eating pork, working on the Sabbath, charging interest etc.

However, the exact same people will condemn homosexuality based on quotes from the Old Testament or preach 'an eye for an eye' while stuffing their face with ham.

[skippysmom]

10. they claim the New Testament forbids homosexuality too

so that "new covenant" doesn't cover that, or so they say. I guess Paul said something about it in one of his epistles. Of course, he's not Christ -- and he did also write that terrible letter about wives submitting to their husbands.

It's all moot though...as the BIBLE IS NOT THE LAW IN THIS COUNTRY.

(at least, not yet)

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

20. technically

The men credited with those "words of wisdom" weren't actually the ones who wrote them. They weren't written until decades after they were dead. Ever play telephone? Not to mention that the words were translated several times over and over again, handwritten over and over again(no printing presses), with no doubt some additions and subtractions based on whomever was doing the translations and writing. It's lunacy to believe that those people didn't add some bias somewhere along the lines. Like in telephone the story grows and changes based on the person telling it.

[Bertha Venation]

23. that does not matter one iota to a Fundy

It's all inspired by God. "Like a leaf borne by a stream" (leaf is man who wrote, god is stream) "Like a hand in a glove" (glove is man who wrote, god is hand)

The bible is right because the bible says so.

There is no way to defeat this circular logic when you're arguing with a fundy.

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

30. true

But it's always fun to argue that point. The blank stare says it all! Guess I'm a troublemaker at times.

[Bertha Venation]

38. Hey, Troublemaker: You ever kissed Hank's ass? see link

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

42. Now that is hilarious!

Gonna have to send that to a couple of like minded individuals ;)

Thanks for the laugh!

[Sequoia]

3. The Song of Songs is pretty racy

[DinahMoeHum]

48. It is best recited while breathing heavily. . .

:evilgrin:

[SarahB]

5. Sexual intercourse during menstruation....

Grounds for both parties getting stoned to death.

Makes sense. :eyes:

[Fenris]

8. Man, am I going to hell or what?

Done that. Many times. I don't care, of course. In the words of Reverend Lovejoy, "The Bible says a lot of things."

[LynneSin]

11. ewwww....no way

I don't want no Moses parting my red sea thank you very much.

I don't even want to be touched for the first 48 hours

:eyes:

[SarahB]

16. It helps with cramps.

:D

[mede8er]

44. What she said.........

:smoke:

[Brahma Bull]

36. That's gross dude!

:puke:

[LynneSin]

6. Just remember to ask them about the Lobster, Shrimp and Crabs

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

BTW, this is from the same book of the bible that says man lying next to man is an abomination.

PS: I'm heading to Harry Savoy's Seafood House for lunch. I'm planning on eating their excellent soft shell crabs and I'm looking forward to hanging out in hell with all you wonderful gay men of DU

:bounce:

[GOPisEvil]

13. Damn...I'm going here (look inside) for lunch. Shrimp PoBoy for me.

http://www.genesrestaurant.com/

Guess I'm going to Hell. Oh well.

[aquart]

9. We all have our favorites.

Mine is at the end of Judges where we get the Enquirer version of Sodom and Gomorrah. After his concubine is gang-raped and killed, the guy who threw her out to the crowd tosses her body on a donkey, takes her home, cuts her into 12 pieces and MAILS ONE PART OF HER TO EACH OF THE TWELVE TRIBES, asking for justice for what was done to HIM! And then it just gets better.

Or the part (don't know where it is) where the Israelites are allowed to return from the Babylonian exile, and the purists decide to leave the BABYLONIAN WIVES AND CHILDREN BEHIND. Yeah, that's a shining moment.

Of course, the fundies will probably take these stories as behavior guides.

The best response is the one from Aaron Sorkin writing for Bartlett on West Wing where he attacks a fundie by reciting all the Biblical restrictions we've chosen to simply ignore.

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

17. My Favorite

Episode! Have to watch that one every time it's on Bravo

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

28. The Quote

For those interested, here is the quote from West Wing. The president walks in and there's a woman like Dr. Laura there:

Bartlet: "Forgive me, Dr. Jacobs. Are you a MD?"

Dr. Jacobs: "PhD."

Bartlet "A PhD?"

Dr. Jacobs "Yes, sir."

Bartlet "In Psychology?"

Dr. Jacobs "No, Sir."

Bartlet "Theology?"

Dr. Jacobs "No."

Bartlet "Social work?"

Dr. Jacobs "I have a PhD in English Literature."

Bartlet "I'm asking, 'cause on your show, people call in for advice and you go by the name of Dr. Jacobs on your show. And I didn't know if maybe your listeners were confused by that, and assumed you had advanced training in Psychology, Theology, or health care."

Dr. Jacobs "I don't believe they are confused, no sir."

Bartlet "Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination."

Dr. Jacobs "I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does."

Bartlet "Yes, it does. Leviticus."

Dr. Jacobs "Eighteen twenty-two."

Bartlet "Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, and always clears the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath, Exodus 35:2, clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important, 'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes us unclean, Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing, while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tightass Club, in this building, when the President stands nobody sits."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. Ask and ye shall receive

http://www.freethoughtdebater.com/FBibleManual.htm

My favorite: The prophet Elisha, while walking by the road, was teased by a bunch of children who shouted, "Baldy, baldy!" God's response was to send two wild bears on the children. 42 were killed, and that was advertised as a Good Thing™. 2 Kings 2:23-24

[Swamp Rat]

45. Oi!

Falar de os religiosos... tem crentes doidos perto da casa de minha enamorada que sempre canta a Jesus os sabados, e o outro lado da casa tem as católicas (obreiros da tarde) tambem cantando a Jesus e atras da casa tem forró ruim (e dois clubes de forró perto da casa também)... que barulho! O que eu gosto é o chôro (pixinguinha, etc.) e a música de Tom Zé, Bosco, Hermeto Pascoal, etc. "Super legal!" como disse o sapo Jo Soares.

Eu prefiro a religião dos Indios como o Warí (Rodônha), Yanomami, etc. e também o candomblé. Gravei (filme) uma festa de candomblé fora de Fortaleza - muito legal!

Inté

[teach1st]

14. Try The Skeptic's Annotated Bible

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I like family values

Gen.38:8-9 "And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground."

Lev.15:16-18 "And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even."

[cprise]

15. "Why I Am Not A Christian"

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm

[Sandpiper]

18. Hope this helps

My personal fav is Genesis 19:30-38. It's the story of Lot and his two daughters. And that's all I'll say about that one.

[GCP]

21. A bit of that holy incest

Fundies conveniently forget those bits of the bible.

[Mnemosyne]

22. Is he the one?

that gave his daughters to the crowd to protect the "strangers/angels"?

if so, nice loving father, if not anyone remember who it was?

[Sandpiper]

26. Yes

But he didn't actually give them over, the angels stepped in and rescued them before the the deed was done.

But yes, he offered his daughters to a band of rapists.

[Mnemosyne]

43. thanks sandpiper, my memory has been bad lately.

[noonwitch]

19. The stories about Jacob in Genesis are pretty wild

He stole his brother's birthright, he married Leah and Rachel, and encouraged the sisters' rivalry, he stole the best cattle from his father in law, and in addition to his polygamy, he also had concubines on the side. But God liked him, so he was the founder of Israel.

David did some pretty bad stuff(adultry, murder), but the prophets Samuel and Nathan always gave him a hard time about it, being the good advisors that they were. He also was punished when his son Absalom rose up against him. My sympathies to some degree are with Absalom, because he was defending his sister's honor after another half-brother raped her. Poor kid, he had to have a terrible childhood, considering his dad had hundreds of wives, and probably thousands of children. The stories about David are in the 2 books of Samuel, the first book of Kings and the Chronicles, which is kind of a summary.

My recommendation is a book called "Ken's Guide to The Bible" by Ken Smith. I found it in the humor section at the bookstore, but it may be out of print now. Amazon should have it.

[sus]

24. don't try to educate them. tell them you're going to "pray for them."

that always pisses them off.

[drb]

25. Here you go...

Lev 20: 9 - 10
Lev 20:18
Lev 21: 16 thru 24

Then you can ask them about the "rich young ruler," and why he went away sad. (Jesus told him to sell everything he had and give the money to the poor - he balked at that) Then you could ask them about how many people who go to their church drive either a Caddy, an Infiniti, a Lexus, or a Mercedes.

Then you can ask if their church has addressed the "blab it and grab it" heresy - that God will give you material wealth if you pray for it.

[Az]

27. Some examples

2 Kings
2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (think this one through, god made some people specifically to be damned)

Titus 2: 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; (slavery is not condemned)

Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed (again slavery is not condemned)

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. (must be a republican, so much for the handicapped)

2 Thessalonians
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(and you thought Satan was a deciever)

2 Thessalonians
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(lemme get this straight, god hides and those who don't find him get eternal fire? real moral)

[TrogL]

29. Don't get me started

Click my link below or go to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html

[Nadienne]

31. Well, I don't have any Bible verses,

But isn't greed a sin?

(Of course, you don't see any moralists trying to curb people from being too greedy.)

Isn't vanity a sin?

Gluttony and laziness?

Pride?

Envy? Hey, that would make the American Dream - a family, a house, a white picket fence just like every normal American has - kindof a sin, right?

[Az]

32. The seven deadly sins were add ons

Suggested by Evagrius of Pontus there were first 8 deadly sins. This was shortened to 7 by Pope Gregory the Great when he rolled vainglory and pride into one sin. So these as sins are really more interpretations than direct charges from the bible.

[Az]

33. Two key conceptual immoralities of the bible

Original sin. This is the notion that we are all tainted by Adam and Eve's failure in the garden. But lets examine this story closer.

Genesis
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This is the two lines that seem to have set us on the path of destruction. But what do they tell us. What is the nature of this tree they ate from. It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From this we may imply that Adam and Eve were without knowledge of good and evil. They were the ultimate innocents. They had no means of determining right or wrong.

Thus when God ordered them not to eat of the tree it seemed to them the best course to take. But when the serpant bid Eve to eat of the tree she had no means by which to judge this request with. It carried as much force for her as did God's commandment. As she could not determine right from wrong she had no freewill on the matter. She had no basis to judge whether the serpant's suggestion was good or evil. She could only comply.

It is this very issue that sends the entire story into a spiral. God created a situation where he should have expected failure. What other result could he have expected from this situation. You put a pair of peopel with no sense of good and evil in a garden with the ultimate evil and then toss in a tree with the literal forbidden fruit and you expect things to go along peachy?

Imagine if you will a mother leaving her baby in the kitchen with a bottle of poison on the floor. She tells the baby not to drink the poison and then leaves. The baby promptly drinks the poison and dies. Is she responsible for the death of the baby or is she innocent because she told the baby not to drink the poison?

The second conceptual moral failure in the bible is the fact that God made Hell. Let us imagine God as being the ultimate of ultimates. Nothing is beyond his ability. He can create the universe exactly as he wants it. In fact the only thing he can't do is self limiting things such as make a rock he can't life or make a universe that he does not know the outcome of. Thus it is within his capibility to create a universe where in free will is intact but everyone finds their way to him and enters the kingdom of heaven. A god that cannot do this is less than the god that can do this by definition. So the necessity of hell suggests that he wanted to toss some entities that he created into hell. He wanted some entities to suffer for eternity. He chose to create them just to have them suffer.

[Brahma Bull]

35. Um...you're wrong.

God didn't create Hell. Satan did after he was cast out of Heaven.

And your other point, God DID know Adam and Eve were gonna sin. He knew all along that they would eat the fruit off the tree. He knows all and sees all.

Get better arguments.

[Az]

37. You kinda missed the point

We are discussing morality. You will find that Hellfire and damnation get plenty of mention without the direction of Satan commanding it. God claims to have created everything. The bible even says god created evil(Isaiah 45: 7). Kinda tough claiming to be all moral and the source of evil.

As to knowing all and seeing all, that is part of the problem. He created this specific universe. He created it knowing exactly how it would turn out. A god that could create a universe with free will intact and no one being cast into the firey pits of damnation would certainly be a more powerful god than one that could not. So either god specifically chose to make this flawed universe or he could not do better.

[demgurl]

34. I went to a Catholic Girl's School

and one of the things my teacher taught us and laughed about was the atrocities brought up in the bible!!!! The one thing that always stuck with me was this one:

Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 1 Corinthians 11:4-5

He was using such things as this to teach us (in an all girl's catholic school) that the bible should NEVER be taken literally. He told us how silly it was that it was considered bad form for a woman to not wear a hat in church but that a man never should.

[pagerbear]

39. Terrific book

Ken's Guide to the Bible
Can't remember the author's name (Ken Something?), but you should be able to find it at amazon.com or bn.com, even if you don't buy it there. Highlights lots of things like that.

This book sort of takes Biblical statements on homosexuality at face value, alas--for a good source on that particular issue, try Jonathan Loved David by Tom Horner.

[niceperson]

40. sorry

double post

[niceperson]

41. Instead of things in the bible we don't follow because they're ridiculous

Why don't you focus on things in the bible said by Jesus which fundies don't follow but should. There's lots in the bible about not judging others, not being over literal with the bible, not flaunting how "devout" you are. They're all in the gospels, and all attributed to Jesus himself. That should shut them up

[Az]

46. Nope

Doesn't work. After years of debates and discussions with theists of all stripes I have found that the fundie variety holds only to what is in their head. A perfect example is found in what I call the Luke 6:30 bomb.

Whenever people gather that fundies object to there will usually be fundies with bullhorns present. They seem to think shouting their nonsense louder makes it more believable. I approach them and start a conversation about Jesus or some such probing whether they follow his teachings or not. I usually load this up with loving Jesus as a reason to follow his teachings.

Its here that I ask them to read Luke 6:30 (Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again). They get a confused look on their face. Thats when I ask them for their bullhorn. To date not one fundie confronted with this verse has given up their bullhorn(I did have one fundie offer to give me his jacket when I asked for it, I refused claiming I was only trying to make a point).

The following torrent of excuses is always interesting. The first is usually its being taken out of context. I challenge them to read the entire chapter. Its interesting to note that the very next verse is literally the golden rule. Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. No matter how carefully they read through it its pretty inescapable. Jesus is telling those that follow him that when they are out in the world and surrounded by those that would criticise them they should be giving to them. Material things mean nothing compared to the value of your soul. Yet these fundies cling to their material posessions as hard as any materialist.

One of the more entertaining excuses was "Its not my bullhorn!" When I asked who's bullhorn it was they refused to answer.

The whole point of this is that most people do not believe the bible. Not really. They will read something in there but if it does not mesh with their own interpretation of it the mind will reject it. People learn a smattering of verses and chapters and base their world view on this. When confronted with something in the bible they do not include in their world view it is as quickly rejected as the theory of evolution. So trying to force their own hypocracy in their own faces is usually doomed. They will only see your attempt to bring them down and dismiss your actions in that light. It may be entertaining for those witnessing such a tactic but its effectiveness on the fundie will be limited at best.

[exJW]

47. Ezekiel 23:20 - God sez: Size Matters! It's official.

Ok, so it's not immoral, it's just fun to point out.


Check out the Skeptic's annotated bible on the web.

[DinahMoeHum]

49. Try reading "The X-Rated Bible". . .

"An Irreverent Survey Of Sex In The Scriptures"

Link:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0922915555/qid%3D1087926919/701-8332834-1372364


:evilgrin:

[regularguy]

50. God constantly ordering genocide and ethnic cleansing in th OT.