Any Pantheists, potential Pantheist, or Anti-Pantheists on board tonight?

[Kimber Scott]

Thoughts? Pro? Con? Why?

[newsguyatl]

1. pantheist here!!!

[Kimber Scott]

3. I've just discovered there is a word for what I've always felt.

Everything is "god" and we are all part on one organism. Have you always been a pantheist?

I had a discussion with a Frenchman about it and he said the problem with pantheism was there were no moral standards. I'm wondering what good moral standards have done in our world. I mean most people don't not rape and murder just because somebody told them not to. They don't do it, on the whole, because it is naturally wrong. What do you think?

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Why would there be no moral standards...

with pantheism?

Having an anthromorphic God, or gods, simply means that God can define and demand a certain ethic. Allah tells us what to do because he is Allah. And we are supposed to listen.

But, if God is not defined, as God is not defined in many religions, there is still an ethic. Animists, universalists, Quakers and other mystical Christian sects, Buddhists, existentialists, ethical culturalists, Confucionists... all manage to carve out a system of ethics and morality.

It's more difficult not having the authority of an Almighty declaring things from on high, but all religions and pseudo-religious philosphies have ethical systems intrinsic to them.

[newsguyatl]

6. i guess for as long as i can remember

i've been a pantheist, though i didn't discover the actual term until college, in a book on "journalism ethics," oddly enough.

i've always believed that the only "higher power" than us, is mother nature, the cyclical life cycle, our universe. to me, we're all part of the same energy, the trees, the ocean, the animals, all of us. and when we die, our energy is recycled and reused.

actually, there's a beautiful writing that i live by... it's called desiderata and it's my "bible"... :

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble, it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

[Jesse_W]

10. Thank you.

I hadn't read that before (although, oddly enough, I had heard a parody of it on a Dr. Demento record...) and I find it very sensible and good advice. That's a good thing to use as a "bible". Thanks for sharing it.

[Kimber Scott]

15. I have Desiderata hanging on my wall, a small plaque that's been there

so long, I'd forgotten what it said. Thank you for reminding me how beautiful and profound it is.

I actually discovered the idea of pantheism, or should I say the word pantheism, (I've always had the idea that nature is the supreme source, THE alpha and omega, but had never had a label for the belief), in an African American Literature class. We were reading Zora Neale Hurston's, "Their Eyes were Watching God." The more I thought about the God they were watching I realized Hurston was saying it - God - is everything. It is the people. It is the animals. It is the storm and the grass and the water and the concept suddenly seemed complete to me. It takes me a while to understand myself!

Oh, if we could but respect and worship all that IS and not worry about all that isn't. If we could learn to live instead of preparing to die, what would life be like here on this planet? It seems, however, from the beginning of time, we humans have been so obsessed with the here-after, we've made a pretty big mess of the here.

[joefree1]

2. My motto

All spirtual paths have value except when they're "exit only."


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganWarrior/

[toddaa]

4. Taoist Pantheist here

Gave up calling myself an atheist because it's too negative. I'd rather think of what I am rather than what I'm not. Pantheism gives me that. Taoism is my guide.

[Kimber Scott]

19. Interesting. Welcome to DU!

I've never looked into Taoism. You've piqued my curiosity.

:hi:

[Chovexani]

7. Hrm. My beliefs are pretty complicated.

I'm more of a Pan-Poly-Animist. :crazy:

I believe that there are many expressions of divine energy, and that it exists in all things. I believe in distinct deities also, but that they too ultimately come from the same cosmic source, if you will. Does that make any sense? It's kind of complicated for me to explain.

I think I've always sort of felt this way, I just didn't have the vocabulary to express it (especially since I was raised in a fundie Baptist/evangelical family). I've explored different spiritual paths, but for the past eight years or so I have identified as a Pagan. My beliefs are heavily influenced by Taoism as well, mostly because I am also a student of martial arts.

Have you ever read a book called the Tao of Physics? If not you should, it's a fascinating read and if you're into pantheism at all it will really make you think about things (well, even if you're not :)).

[Jesse_W]

9. Tao of Physics.

I read it. It was quite a lot of fun. I ought to reread it again.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any ideas of the names, duties, qualities of any of the distinct deities you believe in? I also believe that all gods are expressions, and I'm always delighted to hear about new ones. (Unless their followers are militant, violent, and political. That is just a scary, difficult, and tiresome problem to be solved, and we have more than enough fun problems out there...)

Thanks for posting.

[Chovexani]

12. I tend to go with the oldies but goodies

I'm a great lover of ancient mythology and I think the ancients have a lot to teach us. I find that the language of the old gods "speaks" to me the most, if that makes any sense. Myself, I tend to work with the Greek pantheon. I don't like using the word "worship" because that's not really what it is. It's more of a partnership.

I had a profoundly intense experience with Athena a few years ago, when I was at a really bad place in my life. I've stuck by her ever since. I am also rather close to Apollo. Ever since I was a small child I was always fascinated with the old Greek stories and those archetypes always struck a deep chord with me. They are distinct energies to be sure, but the stories are really just human shorthand. I think those two in particular mean so much to me because they embody things I hold dear...wisdom, the strength to defend those you love, the creative energy I express through my writing, etc.

Welcome to DU, btw. :)

[Jesse_W]

8. Devil's advocate, for the fun of it...

So, what is this pan-theism, exactly?

Everything is a god - if so, what qualities could it have that distinguish it, and allow you to call it a "god"?

Or, everything is one thing, and that thing is (sensibly) in control of everything (since it _is_ everything) - if so, is this a denial of free will; wouldn't that be rather depressing?

Or, since everything is divine, nothing can be harmed - if so, the question of what is harm becomes critical. Is harm anything which causes pain, or suffering? If so, does this mean rocks (assuming (possibly wrongly) that rocks cannot suffer) can be harmed (because "harm" doesn't mean anything in that case)? {Sorry- that last one doesn't make much sense. Feel free to ignore it.}

BTW, I'm pretty friendly with pantheism, myself. I just felt I ought to try stirring up some debate... No offense is intended, of course.

[Kimber Scott]

17. OK, I'm new at this thought process, but I will give it my best effort.

I have never been an atheist, closest I've been is an agnostic. So, I am pretty convinced I really don't know anything!

My idea of pantheism doesn't really involve divinity in any particular thing, but that all is divine. The stars, the nothingness, the rocks, the trees, the water - all matter and non-matter as it exists now and has always. I think the universe is one organism, possibly a speck in the existence of all existence - a molecule, maybe. It is the energy that moves all animate and inanimate objects. It is the energy that Is. As we become, we are a part of that energy and when our physical beings end, our energy remains as it was before. I'm not a scientist, but I believe energy never goes away, it simply transforms. Although, when a pendulum swings, it will eventually stop. I don't know about that. I just don't have the information right now to carry that thought through. Maybe, somebody can help me?

I believe completely in free will. I don't see any reason why being of one being would stop us from acting as we wish - within the limits of our genetic wiring. I believe there is much about who we are that is simply the way we are wired. The fact we are artists, or writers, or singers, or like to contemplate spiritual and scientific and political ideas is really in our genes. Nature made us this way. We cannot help that we are liberal, or conservative, by nature. We cannot help that we love a certain type of music, or play sports, or not. It is in our programming. So, really, is free will a mirage? It could be. But, though we may be wired to play classical piano does not mean we are pre-programmed to kill our neighbor. Some of us are more likely to do that, but our wiring is not absolute. We can overcome it - some of it.

I don't think anything is "in control" except for the laws of nature. Tree tops grow towards the sky and the roots into the ground for a reason. It is the way trees survive. I don't think there is anyone directing anything - this way, or that, but I hope, only because I don't like the thought of total independence, there is some way to tap into good "karma" so to speak - to seek positive energy - so I do pray. Whether it works, or not, it makes me feel better. I think it works. Who, or what, do I pray to? I don't know. I don't think it matters who, or what it is, it's the attempt at a connection with the energy that matters. It's the attempt that creates more energy.

I'm thinking about your reference to harm and I believe as there is positive energy there is also negative energy. Yes, things can be harmed, but rocks? I don't think a rock can be harmed - changed - not harmed. What do you think? Does any of what I said make sense?

[Fovea]

11. Pro

Everything that acts, works in the same system.
For a given moment we could all be the center of the Universe.
How can I not regard you then as Goddess, for her
spirit might flow through you at any moment.

And all things that touch once are always connected.

[starroute]

13. I'm sort of a pantheist if you define it loosely.

More of a mystical holist, really, and even my understanding of what that means tends to fluctuate a lot.

Probably the best way I can put it is in deliberately "dumb" terms:

There's something bigger than we are. We're all part of it.

Speculating as to the nature and purposes of that larger something is a fool's game. The best you can do is try to catch the wave.

All morality and all creativity come from identifying with this totality. All greed and destruction come from rejecting it and seeing our individual selves as an all-in-all.

Every work of art imparts a glimpse of this wholeness, and so does every science.

Every story teaches us how to attune ourselves to it, from the great religious myths to the cheapest trashy novels.

Every social advance has been the product of people with an intense sense of this wholeness and a determination to embody it more perfectly in their political institutions. There is no worthy human activity or achievement that is not a part of this same dedication.

However, trying to put a name on this wholeness or to define it too closely will only lead you astray. How can you define something that is everything? But what you cannot name, you can be.

[Chovexani]

14. That was beautiful.

And so true. :hug:

[Kimber Scott]

18. Very thoughtful. How can one define something that is everything?

I think that's what leads us to use terms such as "god" and divine, because the concept is nearly impossible to name. And, as you have said this need to define has its perils. History is proof of this. The brain being the way it is, though, does need some sort of label on ideas in order to know where to store them and where to find them when you want them back. But, I will take your advice and be careful not to label my ideas too narrowly.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

16. Pantheism reminds me of how

people say "namaste" to each other which, roughly translated, means "the light in me salutes the light in you".

I am officially Christian, but I don't disagree with pantheism (can I still be a Christian in that case?).

I also find a lot of understanding through a study of Buddhism.

I love to mess with my Christian friends and identify myself as a "Methodist Universal Unitarian Gnostic Buddhist". They get all peeved. Maybe I can add Pantheist to it and really make their heads spin.