I would like to personally tell our Liberal Men on DU

[Misinformed01]

how very much I appreciate them!

When I see a single mother skipped over for promotion, and she is kinda..well..you know, dumpy looking....I am thinking of you guys!

When I see a post by a female DUer that she got dumped by a young man because her behind was "too big," I am thinking of you guys!

If you are the Liberal, Progressive men that women are depending on to be on our side...well, we are in a world of shit now, aren't we? When your mothers, sisters, aunts, friends, or any female that you care about could write anything that I just wrote above....or is objectified in some way by a man....Look in the mirror and know without a doubt that it's because of you, and other people such as yourselves.

You are either part of the solution, or part of the problem.


On edit: removed links to locked threads.

[Burma Jones]

1. Your Links don't work n/t

[Racenut20]

2. It is nice to be thought of that way....?????

Well, actually I don't know. Hmmm, have I ever been thought of as a somewhat dumpy looking woman with a big butt ???? I should go to happy hour at the local pub and ask that question around. hehe

[GiovanniC]

3. Hey, Don't Put Us All in the Same Boat

I'm 100% for male/female parity. I work side-by-side with women in my job and they do it just as well as I do and deserve to be paid just as much as I do, as well.

I respect women. Do I look at women and think they're attractive? Sure, and hopefully they do the same to me and we're all even.

So if you've had some sort of bad experience with a guy or guys on DU, don't just assume that all DU males are bad.

[Misunderestimator]

8. She wasn't putting you all in the same boat, but was reacting...

to yesterday's torrent of threads and posts that were ignorantly continuing the cycle of keeping women down. Sounds dramatic, but it's exactly how it happens to keep us down. Put up a picture of our soon-to-be VPs daughter and salivate all over her... when there haven't been ANY posts that actually treat her like anything but an object. Yeah... that's insulting as hell.

And... I like your attitude, but you have to understand that we're not STARTING on a level playing field. The equality is NOT there so we have to work for it. And when we work HARDER than some of the men around us only to find that what's right above us is a glass ceiling... then yeah... even the smallest remarks made by liberal men on this forum that help continue this pattern are extremely frustrating.

[Misinformed01]

11. I was trying to think of one man that was arguing the

women's side on those threads. I need to go back and look, because I might be wrong (they got really big) but I could only think of one right offhand.

[Misunderestimator]

15. Yang had a thread last night and made some good points...

Of course it was met with the same defensiveness from others.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1953628

[Misinformed01]

18. Cool! Thanks! Go Yang!

:)

[Lars39]

24. Yes, his comments won't be forgotten. Ever.

[GiovanniC]

31. I'm Not Sure Which Threads You're Talking About

Obviously I didn't read them, but even if I had I can't respond to every topic that outrages me... I'm suffering from Liberal Outrage Fatigue (www.theonion.com).

[smirkymonkey]

35. I think it was Paranoid Pat...

he was at least one of the men who was being understanding.

Thanks Paranoid Pat!! :hi:

[LincolnMcGrath]

19. Only women are objectified?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1375601

[Misunderestimator]

Is that a politician's son?

Or is it just a model, which by pure definition means that the body is a tool to sell something... therefore an object (besides the fact that I believe that that thread was started by a man, but I can't tell from the profile).

And even if men are sometimes treated as objects... take a read at this to understand why it's not the same thing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1953628

[LincolnMcGrath]

32. Sounds like special rights

Only straight-white-middle-age-pervs are NOT allowed to Objectify.

[GiovanniC]

28. I'm a Liberal Man on DU

Whenever the original poster sees a single mother passed over for a promotion because she's "dumpy looking", the original poster will be thinking of me because I'm in the overall group she addressed in her post - liberal men on DU. She didn't just address the ones who were offensive in some way in some posts I didn't even read yesterday.

[LincolnMcGrath]

4. no working links

[Kenneth ken]

5. none of your links work

I'm sorry if people who post here post things that hurt and upset you. I try to avoid posting hurtful things.

I also don't much care to post in threads that are highly argumentative, by the time they get to that point, there isn't much "listening" occurring.

If you feel I personally have failed you, by not verbally arguing on your side, I'm sorry for that too.

I do what I do, if that isn't enough, it simply isn't enough. I don't know you well enough to be shamed or embarrassed by your words.

:hug:

peace

[Screaming Lord Byron]

6. Nothing like slamming an entire group for the sins of a few, eh?

Maybe you can recap what went on in those threads for the benefit of those who have no idea what's going on here.

[trotsky]

7. How neat, a sexist post that condemns sexism.

eom

[BigMcLargehuge]

9. allow me to personally respond, as a liberal man

1. use the thread ignore feature (my logical solution).

[Misinformed01]

17. I started the original thread in GD

so, I didn't want to put it on ignore.

If you were there arguing with the men who objectified Kerry's daughter, or trying to explain to other men why the Man Show is sexist, then I apologize to you: I missed it, and am truly sorry.

[BigMcLargehuge]

30. No, I didn't argue with anyone, and I didn't participate

you don't like the man show (and neither do I)... here's how I get around it. I don't watch it. However, unlike you, I don't piss all over those who do. Some of the fans of that show are my friends, and all around good people who like a little bawdy humor.

As for Edwards' daughter, she's attractive, she has nice legs, and a nice smile. She any better than other women? Well, she certainly has better legs than some, and a nicer smile than some. Since i don't know her, and won't ever have the chance to get to know her deepest profound thoughts, legs and smile is all I have to go on.

Before this devolves into a discussion on objectification let me finish with this...

I deal with sexism where it's important, in the real world, not on some message board.

[Misinformed01]

34. So, what issues do you deal with on a message board?

I thought DU was designed to deal wtih "real world" issues--

Interesting way to devalue people's thoughts and posts.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

37. mispost, sorry.

[BigMcLargehuge]

38. it's a MESSAGE BOARD

you'd rather we spent our time and energy here rooting out sexism and chastising those with whom we disagree/disapprove...

before I allow you to goad me into becoming uncivil, let me finish with this.

Use the thread ignore button and alert the mods.

[Misinformed01]

40. I started the thread

?

Why would I put it on ignore?

[BigMcLargehuge]

42. which one?

the trampoline thread, the objectification thread, or the Edwards' has a pretty daughte thread?

I read all of them.

[Misinformed01]

45. The "Institutionalized Sexism" thread in GD

I skimmed the Edward's daughter thread only after someone on a different thread said it bothered them-

Stephanie

I am sorry I started this one now, to be honest. I don't think that the men here "get" this one, somehow. I don't hate the guys on DU; it just makes me incredibly sad that the sexist attitudes in the US that are so pervasive and incredibly damaging are being either ignored or practiced by the Liberal men. I guess it never really hit me how much until last night.

How sad is that.

[BigMcLargehuge]

47. it's sad only in that you're basing it on the content of an anonymous

message board.

Do you seriously think the majority of we DU men wouldn't step up and confront sexism in the workplace, or social situations, when we encounter it?

I'll go out on limb here and say that virtually all of us support:

equal wages for women
elimination of the glass ceiling
the right to choose (i.e. being pro choice)
the right to choose roles, (i.e. reversing/ignoring "traditional roles" for men/women)

So where's the sexism?

[trotsky]

51. Well put, BML.

eom

[Misinformed01]

55. What's even sadder is that you are unable to see

that I am not basing my opinions solely on an internet message board.

When I came home and posted what I wrote yesterday, it was from something that happened out "in the real world"...not just to me, but to another female.

The rest of that story is personal, and I'll not go there...but, I will say this: every single woman on this board has either suffered from sexist attitudes, or will as soon as she gets old enough to not be sexually attractive-

Every single one. This is not an internet board problem.

[southpaw]

10. Come back with it, Misinformed...

I feel a bit pissed-on by this seeming blanket accusation you felt compelled to throw over us guys.

The links are obviously a bust, but you can sum it up for us can't you?

[BigMcLargehuge]

12. they were the objectification threads

one about actually objectifying women, and women wanting to be objectified
another about Edwards' attractive daughter showing a bit of thigh
and another with girls in trampolines

The horror... the horror.

[Misinformed01]

13. Were you online last night?

Did I miss all the sensitive men on DU telling the few insensitive ones that they were wrong?

Did I miss the sensitive guy post on the Kerry's Daughter thread saying, "hey guys...this is wrong, and sexist?"

I mean, I might have overlooked them--were you there? If you were, I very much apologize.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

20. No, but the point is, we weren't there and we had nothing to do with it.

So we don't deserve your slam. I tend to avoid posts that look like they're going to turn into flamewars or just hold no interest for me.

[Misinformed01]

23. I am sorry sexism in the US has no interest for you

didn't mean to bore you.

Probably you should just hit "ignore" on this one too.

Sorry to bother you; I apologize.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

26. I wasn't even online last night, so it's a moot point.

The point isn't whether or not subjects interest me, but that some subjects are not worth dealing with online because they generate way more heat than light.
Still, your original slam on 'Liberal Men on DU' is unjustifiable.

[ProfessorGAC]

56. An Honest Question

What is sexist about pointing out that Kerry or Edward have daughters that are very attractive? Isn't the tenor the real critical parameters?

Now, i can understand that there were some posts ("i would do her", for instance) that could be offensive to some. But, it could offensive for reasons that have nothing to do with sexism, no? Just looking at a picture & posting "i'd do her" is probably offensive. If you did that about a picture of a man, i'd think many would find that just as out of bounds.

Perhaps it was the adjective "hot" that rankled you on that thread. That is more understandable as well.

Pointing out that a good looking woman is good looking is neither sexist nor objectifying. The tone is everything.

You would appear to understand that, given the tone of your original post on this thread. You obviously were trying to set the tone. So, tone is, indeed everything.

One last note: I have never believed that it's constructive to take the position "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". Sorry, but i think that what could be called the opposite is true. "If you're NOT part of the problem, you ARE part of the solution." Since you will never read anything written by me that disparages anybody because of gender, race, disability, etc, I AM PART OF THE SOLUTION! Your blanket generalization is as offensive to me as those threads were to you.
The Professor

[Mikimouse]

14. I am at a complete loss in attempting to understand...

what prompted this post? If I am on the list of guilty parties, I certainly don't know it, and would be amazed if I was. I have often argued about the BS that we call 'The American Beauty Myth', and the nature of gender stratification based on physical characteristics. Where di all of this come from????????:shrug:

[cleofus1]

16. I voted for the ERA way back when...

And I find women attractive for a variety of reasons...classical beauty is not one of them (I'm serious). I respect my female co workers and never feel threatened by them...nor do I hold it against them if they are promoted over me. I never "dumped" a girl because she was "ugly" (I'm no beauty myself).

I hope you can get past your bad experiences with men. It's a hard road we all must travel.

[Misunderestimator]

22. Not bad experiences with men... Bad experiences yesterday...

with men's comments about women.

And that was a pretty insulting thing to say, btw.

[cleofus1]

29. i'm sorry...

I did not mean to offend...i must have misunderstood something...

were you talking to me?

[Lars39]

21. I just gotta say.....

the threads in question were read top to bottom(and before the mods started deleting) by a young teenage female relative of mine. She found them very informative and eye opening. Her reaction could best be described as outraged over many of the views expressed.

[Misunderestimator]

25. Exactly.... and I'm with Misinformed01 on this...

To know now that those views were expressed here on a liberal forum is quite disheartening.

[Misinformed01]

27. The worst part to me is that I can now only name 2 men

on DU (I know a ton of very cool DU guys were not logged on last night...I hate that they are reading this and thinking, wtf??) that were arguing for the women's point of view.

2.

That hurts.

[RetroLounge]

33. "You are either part of the solution, or part of the problem"

and you are with us or against us...Oh wait, bush* said that...

Please think of me next time you get:

skipped over for promotion
dumped by a young man because your behind was "too big

I will be smiling that one more poor victim of male tyranny can place blame elsewhere and feel better about herself.

Glad to be of service...

RL

[bratcatinok]

36. I didn't read every post on each thread

I don't have a problem with men stating someone is hot. I do have a problem with a man's whole post being comprised of "I'd do her" as if the only worth she has is whether her vagina and looks are good enough for him to stick his precious penis in it. That kind of comment is offensive and extremely sexist.

[Lars39]

41. It also makes it sound like the act would happen whether she was

willing or not. The ego that says, "I'd do her." never seems to realize that, or to realize that the object of his lust probably wouldn't "do him" if her life depended on it.

[mistertrickster]

39. To rise to "flame bait" or not--that is the question . . .

Somehow, I don't see "liberal men" as the root cause of this problem. I work in a job setting in which all the top administrators are women. Ever heard of the "queen bee" syndrome. They tyrannize THE OTHER WOMEN that work for them. Strangely, they leave us men alone for the most part.

As for women not getting promotions because of their appearance, hey, life is unfair. It's not right and I don't condone it, but how many Oscars would Julia Roberts (whom I never cared for as an actor, btw) have won if she looked like Momma Cass? How far could Michael Moore get if he ran for Congress.

Looks matter, they shouldn't so much and it's not fair, but go ahead and change the whole world. It's not that easy.

***************
And other thing--ever notice the women on the cover of women's magazines? Not just Cosmo but also Redbook and Ladies Home Journal. They are even more perfect and impossibly thin than Playboy centerfolds. I don't think "liberal men" are buying "Shape" magazine.

[oxymoron]

43. Liberal GAY man here.

I didn't read the offending threads, but your blanket accusation truly sux.

[No2W2004]

44. Lumps

I'm currently getting divorced. The kid's attorney thought it would be best if she and I took parenting classes from a local youth services agency. My ex wife raised hell, but it was fine with me, as I have no objection to being a better parent. So at the intake, my ex wife was accepted, but I was told that "they have no programs for men." What?!? What's the difference? Is there some secret parenting skills that only women may know? Do they assume that I'm gonna want to know how to teach my kids to burp and fart? (a couple of things my 6 year old daughter is FASCINATED with on her own, thank you very much) Why would helping someone be a better parent be so different between men and women?

I know it's a tiny, tiny fraction of the same thing women have faced for centuries, but know that it does exist for men as well. As for my views on the topic, 1) it's stupid for someone not to be paid the same amount for the same job, just because one doesn't fit some stereotype 2)If I see beauty, in any form, I enjoy it. 3) Just because someone shows a bit of thigh is no reason to start drooling. Have I passed a woman and thought to myself "nice ass"? sure I have. I'm human, and as such have human thoughts. Two seconds later, I'm thinking about the laundry.

I'm about to jump into the world of single people again, and the things that will be most important to me, as a man, will be
1)Sense of humor, 2)Kindness, 3)Intelligence. Anything after those is
just a bonus. As I have said more than a few times on these very boards...."Boinking" is nice, but you're gonna want to talk sometime!!

[TX-RAT]

46. Thanks for the flowers.

[trigz]

48. Am a DU'er, but a socialist, not a liberal

Oh well it's pretty much the same thing, apart from the welfare state and that :D

[jukes]

49. Mis

i skipped over most of those threads as sexist flamebait, & a waste of time.

i did glance @ the picture of edwards' daughter out of curiosity.

yes, she's pretty, but so what? had the poster chosen a different foto, & remarked on her classiness, bearing, & attractiveness it wd have been a different matter altogether.

i found the choice of foto to be insensitive, exploitive, tasteless and inappropriate to this forum. since i know nothing of the young lady & plenty of others were taking the poster to task, i declined to comment. had any1 posted a paparazzi like foto of chelsea clinton, a young woman i admire greatly, i wd have stormed in spewing napalm. a not-too-recent posting of a foto of ms. clinton, w/appropriate & respectful comments did not create any furor.

i'm hardly a prude; this IS the lounge, & a certain degree of playfulness is acceptable, but the objectification of 1 of our candidate's daughters is crass & disloyal.

[Blue-Jay]

50. I usually stay out of these types of threads.

And for good reason, I see. That said; Your broad brush is showing. As an adult, I don't appreciate a blanket dressing-down because you got offended by someone else.

Meh.

This whole thread is intentionally inflammatory and should be locked.

[Misinformed01]

60. Yes, I see that you stay off those particular social issues threads

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=1372126&mesg_id=1373993&page=

[Blue-Jay]

64. No, I usualy stay off of flamebait threads.

Assume what you'd like about me, but I'd bet that there are others here who know that you'd be wrong in your assumption.

[Misinformed01]

65. I am sure there are

If you consider discussing sexism "flamebait" then might I suggest that you are on the wrong thread now?

Stephanie

I assume that if you were not a great person that you wouldn't have cute pictures of you and statues on the internet. I actually assumed that you were a cool person about 3 months ago or so when the hints started getting dropped.

Too bad you couldn't make the same assumption about me, or maybe you just figured JanMichael married a flaming feminazi bitch.

[SarahB]

52. There's a balance to be maintained.

To deny human biology, to deny that men are visually stimulated (yes, even gay men, but there are different objects of their desire obviously) by those they find physically attractive is to deny why the human race itself has been able to perpetuate. Men who are somehow more "enlightened" politically are still men and still going to have physical needs and desires and to deny such is denying or negating the powerful role our sexuality can play within ourselves. Maybe I come from a different place. My father was always a man who considered himself a feminist, yet I knew he had nude paintings/pictures of women and appreciated the female form in a respectful way. He was never weird or anything, but I knew this. Sexuality and finding a woman attractive in my view does not equate with an inherent level of disrespect.

What is disrespectful or wrong on a larger scale is to bring those sexual feelings into areas that have nothing to do with sexuality- the workplace in particular. To place women in economic peril somehow because they don't live up to a man's view of beauty is wrong and unfair. To not give a women the basic respect of a human being as you would give to a man because she has or doesn't have some level of external beauty is also wrong. I do know that this issue is more complex though than men being simply Neanderthals or less evolved somehow.

Edit: I should say, I missed some of the locked threads. I'm willing to admit I could feel differently upon reading them. Not sure though.

[Zolok]

53. What DID I DO?????

Shit I'm out of work in four weeks...when I'm in line to collect unemployment I'll be thinking most benignly about every fat behind happily esconsed in cubicles all over this god forsaken building.

[harper]

54. Valiant try, Misinformed01

I did read all the threads last night, including Yang's before it was cleaned up by the mods...and I was very disheartened. What I took away from the whole dust up is that:

1. Its acceptable on DU to post a picture of a young girl and then sit around and talk about how you'd like to fuck her and...
2. Anyone who objects is a nut.

Interesting thing is that the original "Edward's daughter is hot" thread is still open and all the threads objecting to the objectifying have been locked. Cause they got ugly.

[VelmaD]

57. Excellent point

I think I'm gonna have to go Ask the Adminsitrators about that one. :)

[Misinformed01]

58. You know what?

my attempt was stupid. I had to bang my head against the wall again--for nothing.

Oddly, there are men here that I genuinely "like and respect" (never met them, don't know their real names---think they are cool on DU) basically telling me to go to hell--in so many words.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

59. Your case would be a strong one if you didn't preface it with

such a blanket attack on all DU men. By doing that you participate in sexism yourself, which only undermines your credibility on a subject that needs to be discussed. Remember that respect has to run both ways, or you will not achieve what you want. Why don't we start this again on a more rational basis?

[VelmaD]

63. The problem is this...

even if you are a man devoted to gender equality...you still benefit from a system that puts your gender above mine. I think that's where the blanket statements spring from.

You also have to know the history of men in the women's movement. Women as a group have a lot of pent of anger over years of having allegedly liberal men tell us they were on our side but when push came to shove they really weren't. Because you benefit from the system it's hard for us to have much faith in you when you tell us you want to overturn it.

It's sad. And I wish it wasn't true. And it doesn't mean I hate men. (Quite the contrary - I adore guys and almost all of my friends are male.) It just means that I don't rely on y'all for help on women's issues and I don't get surprised when guys who I otherwise like and respect show that they just don't get it sometimes about feminism.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

66. I don't see it purely as a male/female relationship

I see it as a powerful/powerless relationship. Working-class men, gay men and non-white men don't get all the benefits of patriarchal society. Your opponent is the same as mine, I think. Rich, white conservative males.
As an egalitarian guy, my intentions are good. It gets annoying when I get tarred with the broad brush, lumped in with a group of people I have little in common with. Still, that's the nature of human relationships and politics.

[Loonman]

61. Whew, thought I wasn't going to get my dose of self-loathing

I need to go castigate myself for being born a man and feel collective shame for my gender.

Maybe I'll go eat some meat and start a World War, since that's what us men do best.

[King Of Paperboys]

62. OK, I'll make a deal with you:

I promise to stop appreciating the female form.

YOU promise to stop dating ONLY men who have power, money or looks, constantly yammering on about Brad Fucking Pitt and Antonio Fucking Banderas and Johnny Fucking Depp. YOU promise to stop dating losers who treat you like shit, including hitting you, while a NICE guy has to listen to your constant whining about it. YOU promise to date smart, funny, kind guys, like you keep telling all the Cosmo surveys you WANT to, while you ignore those guys in favor of the "bad boy."

Do we have a deal? Is my fucking brush BROAD enough?

Remember: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

[Zomby Woof]

67. she's happily married to another DUer

So much for your "deal".

[Skinner]

68. I'm going to lock this too.

It has become clear to me that we all need a break from this particular discussion.

My apologies to all of you who were capable of having a thoughtful and respectful discussion. Unfortunately, some people need a break. Sometimes, that happens around here. It's not fair, I know.

Sorry.

Skinner
DU Admin