So if it's okay to spank a kid

[belladonna]

Then it follows that it's perfectly okay for a man to smack around his wife if he feels she's out of line? Right?? That makes so much sense to ME!!

I mean, WTF??? How can a person be outraged over a man beating his wife... or to be fair, a woman beating on her husband... but then say, oh, well a kid who's out of line? Suuuurrre, spank that little monster and show him who's boss. Can anyone explain to me why spanking a child is acceptable, but beating your ADULT partner, whatever gender they may be, is unacceptable??? Edumacate me, puh-leezzze :wtf:

[mzmolly]

1. I don't spank. So I can't help you out on this one cause I agree.

;)

[7th_Sephiroth]

2. spanking is a way

to teach a child who either does not know better, or does, and doesent care, that thaere are concenquences for thier actions, beating ones spouse serves no purpose other than violence, tho spanking ones spouse can be quite fun, if they mutually agree it is

[belladonna]

3. No, spanking is NOT a way to teach a child

Unless you're looking to teach them the I'm bigger than you and I'll kick your ass if you don't do what I want philosophy of life.

[7th_Sephiroth]

4. would you rather send them to thier room

to think about what they did? *lol*that never works, take it from me, my parents tried that on me, all i thought was i was getting away with things without concenquence

[belladonna]

6. Kinda simplistic

Sending a kid off to his room.... is that the only option you can think of? If so, I guess I'm glad you don't have kids.

[7th_Sephiroth]

9. what else is there?

a harsh talking to? cant do that cause you'll hurt the childs feelings
bed without supper? Cant do that cause you'll be a negelctfull parent
Spanking? cant do that cause its physical abouse, not dicipline
what else is there?

[belladonna]

13. You can't be serious

There is taking away privileges that the child enjoys, and being CONSISTENT with that. That really is the key to it all, the child knowing that you mean it when you say you're taking away his Playstation for a week, or phone privileges. C'mon, I've seen your posts here... surely you're more creative than this?

[7th_Sephiroth]

16. my parents tried that with me

i just ignored them

[belladonna]

19. And?

What happened when you ignored them? I'd really like to know

[7th_Sephiroth]

20. i got spanked

diddent do much to me either, but i have allways been extra stubborn

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

43. There's also

natural (logical) consequences. Ever heard of them? They work wonderfully.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

142. Consequences do not have to be physically painful

Denying a child privileges sends the message without teaching the lesson: "If people don't do what you want them to, it's ok to slap them around".

Spanking is the easiest form of punishment, because it requires no thought, no creativity, and it offers a primal outlet for parental anger. When you become a parent, it's easy to see why an overtired, overworked mom or dad occasionally "loses it" and strikes their child when patience runs dry.

When that happens, the parent can teach a valuable lesson to their offspring by apologizing and promising to think very carefully the next time the child needs discipline.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Teddy_Salad]

8. But do YOU have kids?

I fucking hope not! :wtf:

[belladonna]

10. I do have kids

Three of them, to be exact. And I had a smartass, willful teenage son who sorely tested my commitment to the no spanking philosophy. He turned out just fine, despite my failure to show him who's boss with my fists... go figure :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

24. A SMACK IN THE MOUTH!!!! WTF?!?

I have no words to respond to your ignorance.

[cocoabeach]

30. Don't need your reponse. My son never did it again.

And thats good for me.

[Misunderestimator]

33. And you smacked him on the mouth, and you think that was a good thing...

to do? Unfreakingbelievable.... No matter what the end result.

[cocoabeach]

37. Yep

The end result was that he learned that disrespecting and cussing at his mother is a zero tolerance offense.

[Forkboy]

42. And we too have learned something about you

[cocoabeach]

46. Lesson.learned...my son will not be direspectful to his mother.

Learned your lesson? Now here is another for you. Don't judge parents who spank or smack a foul mouthed teenager in the mouth.
I raised my kids and I did the very best I could. Lecture someone else. Your argument is wasted.
Abuse is one thing so get off your high horse. When you master the art of "time-out" then let me know.

[belladonna]

49. Letting you know

Worked just fine for me

Hey, you said let you know :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

53. Yeah, my dad used to say "he did the best he could have done"

I'm grateful that he's realized how wrong he was. I hope you do too one day.

[Forkboy]

59. I wouldn't say you did your best

and I'm willing to bet,as someone who has been there,that your son learned something else to.

But we do agree on one thing.My argument is wasted on you.

[Teddy_Salad]

5. Not so simple I'm afraid

I can say this from personal experience as my father used to beat the crap out of me.
Yeah, I could be very naughty at times but never to the point that deserved the physical beatings he would deal out on me.

And did these beatings stop me from misbehaving?
No.
They made me want to rebel even more and I did.

Physical abuse or violence, no matter how mild is NEVER the answer.

Hell, my dad would start out 'mildly' and in the end he'd lose control.

The government we have does enough of a job of teaching kids that violence solves problems without parents doing it as well.

[Misunderestimator]

26. Ditto here...

[sundog]

60. that's sad

I'm sorry Teddy :hug:

[put out]

11. I'm with you, belladonna.

So, those of you who like to spank, or, less delicately said, hit and slap younger and smaller people, do your best in front of me. And when the child tires and is submissive, or has learned how to lie a bit more skillfully, here's what we do:

I shall do my best upon your body. I'm really small, it shouldn't damage you very much. I will continue to hit you until you have learned that violence is not good. If you persist in your misbehavior, or protest the spanking or hitting or slapping, then you will be hit until you learn that violence is not good.

Sooner or later, you will have learned a lesson.

[cocoabeach]

15. And your point is that your not violent? Point lost

I can count on one hand how many times I have smacked my kids. The first time my daughter was spanked was because she ran in front of a car. It scared the hell out of me. Spanking or sacking on the ass isn't intended to hurt. Emphasize yes hurt NO. For those of you who don't spank.....good on ya. But don't lecture and judge those of us who do.

[belladonna]

17. And I suppose you would call this EMPHASIS??

Your very own words... "Another trick I learned when they were young. Put a balloon in front of their face and punch as hard as you want. It doesn't leave a red mark."

Sure you're not counting on your toes too???

[cocoabeach]

21. Joking about the balloon- lighten up

Like I said before, don't assume that your way is the best way. Time out is totally worthless.

[belladonna]

27. Joking about the smack to the mouth?

Just curious....

[Misunderestimator]

28. My question exactly. n/t

[cocoabeach]

32. Nope

If it were to happen again I wouldn't be sorry.

[Pithlet]

93. I'm going to be sick.

The person you quoted abused their children. I'm really going to be sick. I'm glad that post was deleted, because I don't want to know what else was said. :mad:

[put out]

41. I am not violent.

But I would absolutely defend a smaller, or younger person, or a person who seemed to be disabled in some way, against the violent impulses of another individual. No person needs to be hit or hurt in order for another person to convey an important message.

As I said, perhaps some think it would be better if people were hit, in order to emphasize that the more powerful person has the greater will.

I guess I'm judging. I'm no gift to parenthood, but I will say:

Don't smack around those you love and whom you have pledged to protect.

[olddem43]

12. I used a combination of very infrequent spanking and

death threats. They turned out OK, generally.

[texas1928]

14. My parents spanked me

And let me tell you I did not do the things I got spanked for again. The worst punishment they gave me though was not letting me go outside. My mother's favorite punishment was making me take a 5 gallon bucket out and fill it with rocks. Depending on what I did was how many buckets I had to fill up. But when all else failed I got my butt busted. but they did not get carried away. And they stopped when I did not cry anymore. Spank when nothing else gets through, I have met some children that need to have their butts busted, and some that just need their parents to give them some attention.

THis debate has gone on along, it depends on the parent and their beleifs.

[lojasmo]

18. how did "spanking is acceptable"

become your premise? Is this a given somewhere? I work in health care, and NOBODY who I work with spanks as a routein matter.

[belladonna]

22. I should clarify

This thread was spawned by the Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child thread and is only directed at those who seemed to think it acceptable THERE.... better? :D

[lojasmo]

144. Much

Violence is wrong, especially when directed at loved ones.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

23. These arguments are ridiculous and you're totally being melodramatic.

Spanking was used in my ENTIRE family when we did something totally stupid and we weren't abused. We were simple spanked on the butt. For stuff like if we got into our grandmother's things, we got our hands slapped, and we didn't do it anymore, or if we ran out into the street, we'd get spanked on our bottoms. Or if we bit or did something to someone else, we had that same thing done back, had a little talk about it, then we got a spanking. It's not that big of a deal. We learned not to run into the street, break grandma's picture frames and not to bite our cousins. I never feared my mom, I think she's an idiot, but I never feared her. I feared my dad when he was drunk, but otherwise, he was great. There are certain cases where spanking's not bad, but after a certain age, when they start to understand and start to acquire hobbies that you can take away from them, yeah, negative reinforcement works. I'm sure you guys are going to flame me for this, but I don't care. My cousins and I turned out pretty well. I don't have kids yet, but my kids will be spanked. Not beaten, not tortured, but they will be spanked.
Duckie

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Misunderestimator]

36. You sound like my dad... I hope you can come to see the errors of your

ways the same way he did... after he realized the damage he did.

[Pithlet]

100. "pussies"?

That word right there says a lot. I bet most parents who are abusive don't think they are. Most of them think they're great parents. I hope you're really just pulling our legs here, and trying to get a rise out of us, and these things you've said in this thread aren't true. I really hope so.

[Misunderestimator]

31. I'm happy for you that you feel you did not suffer ill effects...

however, many of us did... and most people are not capable of controlling themselves by tempering their violence to just "spanking"... my father wasn't. Yeah, I turned out pretty well too, with a bunch of scars that took years to overcome. HITTING IS ALWAYS BAD, especially when the person hitting has TOTAL control over the person being hit.

[belladonna]

34. Thank you

You took the words right out of my mouth on that one :hug:

[Misunderestimator]

45. It's unfathomable how people here could blithely disregard the real...

experiences of other human beings on this board who have first hand experience with this.

And thanks for the hug. :hug:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

35. You were abused, not spanked. So let's call it what it really is...

Some parents can control themselves and do know the difference between spanking and abuse. I'm sorry those horrible things happened to you, but you were abused, not spanked.
Duckie

[Misunderestimator]

39. Most can't ... and why take the risk...

A seemingly harmless "spanking" (or smack in the face) to a child by an adult more than twice their weight and size, is much more harmful than you can imagine.

[Teddy_Salad]

38. Sorry, too a fine a line between "just a spankin'" and "physical abuse"

My own father would always start out with the old...."just a spankin'" but it would soon become what I would term physical abuse.
He never knew when to stop.

And he never stopped when I acquired hobbies that he could take away from me either.
He stopped when I became bigger than him and told him I wasn't taking his crap any longer.

I'm not going to flame ya but aren't you asking for it with such a provocative and demeaning title to your post?

Just askin'.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

47. I meant the first arguments...the ones in the first post?

Comparing it to beating your wife?
Duckie

[belladonna]

51. Why not compare it?

I see outrage all the time here over domestic abuse, mostly as it pertains to women being hit and abused by their spouses. So where's the outrage and sympathy for the kids?

[johnnie]

44. I'm with you here

I was spanked, and I didn't do that same thing again. I did other things to get a spanking. I never had welts and I don't sit around at 40 years old and blame mom and dad for anything that goes wrong in my life.
I will say I don't have children and I don't tell people how to raise theirs, I can only speak for my own upbringing and observations.
My generation and friends I hung out with as a child were raised close to how I was. I still talk to many of them and they are all good parents and have great kids. They aren't being convicted of spousal abuse and aren't violent people.
I also know of many of the generation under me who have no respect for others, no respect for themselves and no respect for their parents. I have seen some of these kids hitting their parents, and the parents try to talk to them gently. I laugh my ass off at those people and feel sorry for them when their child gets a bit older.
This is just a no win argument. If I had a child and someone tried to tell me that I wasn't raising my child to their standards and tried to be a tough guy and knock me on my ass, I wouldn't hit back, I would sue their ass and continue to raise my child as I see fit.

[belladonna]

48. I don't think it's melodramatic at all to point out the obvious

So fine, we'll give the benefit of the doubt here and say maybe 10% of parents can give their children a swat on the butt and be done with it. What about the rest of them? What about when the swat on the butt doesn't work anymore and the kid no longer cares about that minor inconvenience? Will said parent just change tracks and go in an entirely different direction or will he or she pull out a belt, or a switch, or begin to use a fist? You and I can agree to disagree, I suppose, but in my view, it's unreal that anyone would think it's perfectly okay to harm a child... even a little bit.

[ScreamingMeemie]

66. I think it's more than 10%. I am a non spanking (not beating as

I said in the other thread) parent, and I think there is a major difference. My parents spanked (they didn't beat) me, and I turned out pretty darned good. Many times the problem is, the woman who swats her child on the rear in a grocery store for pulling down a display of cans is hauled away by the cops who should be down the street arresting the monsters who beat (not spank) their children in the privacy of their home because they know that what they do is wrong.

My philosophy as I said in the other post has been to lecture and reward. It's worked, but I'm not calling the cops on the mom in the grocery store who smacks her child on his fat covered tushie for not minding.

[Misunderestimator]

68. I wish someone had called the cops for me n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. I wish they had too.

I just wouldn't have called them if you were spanked on your rear for unbelievably bad behaviour. But it sounds like your story was far more than spanking. I am glad no one called the cops on my father. He is a wonderful man, a terrific grandpa, and a best friend. I owe most of who I am to him...spankings (not beatings) and all.

[Misunderestimator]

76. And my father would never have taken it far enough for you to call the

cops... but his behavior in public was just a precursor to his behavior in private. PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE IS NEVER NECESSARY... there is always another way. Using spanking as a tool to discipline a child is a COP OUT. There are MANY other ways... sure they are more difficult to administer and take time to sink in, but violence in whatever form is NOT the answer.

[ScreamingMeemie]

77. I disagree. I was not harmed by it. Many are not. It was never taken

too far, and I deserved it. I could go on and on with this but neither of us is going to change the other's mind. I see nothing wrong with it. My pediatrician sees nothing wrong with it. My children do well with lectures and the reward system.

Too many times the wrong people are punished...leaving those (like your father I surmise) free to abuse.

Spanking does not = beating in my book.

[Misunderestimator]

80. Many are not harmed by it (or so they think)... but many are n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

87. Like I said, we'll go on and on about it and my mind still won't change

nor will yours. If they know they are not harmed by it, then they are not...so there is no so they think unless one is to judge them. Nope, haven't been harmed by it, nor have I ever beaten (or spanked) my children for that matter.

[Misunderestimator]

91. Thank you for never spanking your children... I have total respect ...

for that.

For the record... I had blocked out all that had harmed me until I went into therapy and began to realize the effects of the physical "discipline" I had received. For those who did not experience quite as much abuse as I... I think that it may be even more difficult to see the harm in what happened to them. The fact that a person turns out "ok" doesn't mean that what happened to them was necessary or right. I turned out pretty darn well, all things considered.

[ScreamingMeemie]

104. I am glad that you turned out so well. I turned out more than ok. I'm

successful in my personal and professional lives, as are my brothers. I am also glad we could debate this in a calm manner. :hi:

[Nikia]

25. Well for one thing, spouses are suppose to be equals

Neither one of them has a right to punish the other one.
I don't really agree with spanking, but children must be disiplined to learn what is acceptable and what is not.
It is best for a marriage if both partners treat one another as adults. Displining your spouse has no place in a marriage.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

40. I can't help you either, as I agree

I don't hit my husband, he doesn't hit me and neither one of us hit our daughter.

The classic scenario is the mother in the grocery store smacking her kid while saying "DON'T HIT!" because they hit the sibling.

????

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

50. Not only should children be spanked

They should be chained and locked into a soundproof closet until they're 18, at which time they should be kicked out of the house.

And any parent who EVER takes a small child into a movie theater or restaurant should be executed on the spot.

[Pithlet]

109. Ha Ha

Funny.

[Colin Ex]

52. Man, I hate kids. nt

[Amaya]

54. This is too much...

:eyes:

[Teddy_Salad]

55. I agree

Who cares about kids being knocked around by people many times their own size.

I have much more important things to be concerned about...like, "Fuck, I hope Ken Jennings wins on Jeopardy tomorrow night!"

Eyes indeed. :eyes:

[Amaya]

56. Spanking a child isn't "knocking them around"

nt

[Teddy_Salad]

57. No but it's the beginning of it in far too many cases

I know.

[Misunderestimator]

58. Inflicting pain ... how is that a constructive thing?

[Amaya]

61. "Inflicting pain"

isn't constructive. Discipline is.

Saying all spankings are *bad/wrong/or abusive* is just ridiculous.
If you don't believe in it... ok, fine. Enough.

[Misunderestimator]

67. If dolphins can be trained to jump thorugh hoops with fish...

as a reward, and dogs can be trained with a clicker as positive reinforsement for positive behavior... why is it humans that think they are above the animals, can't manaage to train their children without violence? :shrug:

[put out]

143. I believe in spankings,

because so many people insist on doing it, and insist upon their right to do it.

So, go ahead and hit children. For that matter, you can have the right to hit anyone you feel deserves it. Hit them especially if you feel you know better than anyone what they should be doing. Sometimes a mild slap will do, other times you dang near need to grab another object and whap them with it. Although, you may find yourself on the wrong side of the law. But after all, if you can hit your kids, who can't you hit?

Plus, it gets much quicker compliance with your wishes. That discipline deal takes effort and patience and consistency and some emotional maturity, but hitting someone else gets immediate results. The results don't last long, but you get your way right then. The threat of having a loved one hit you will get a small person right in line, real quick. And all it teaches them is to get in line, real quick.

Now, if you personally wish to be hit by a loved one when you violate their wishes, that's alright for you, I guess. I'm not signing up for it. :(

[StopThief]

62. Interesting theorem.

Saying "then it follows" does not quite take the place of making an argument that it follows. Having really enjoyed my logic class, I look forward to you expanding on your reasoning that the two acts are equivalent.

[Angelus]

63. How can you compare hitting a child to hitting a woman?

It's uncomparable. Smacking a child is MUCH different from smacking a grown woman.

Kids need to be spanked to be taught a lesson to never do the thing they did wrong again.

[Misunderestimator]

79. How can you NOT see the comparision?

Oh... I forget who I'm talking to... Never mind.

[kiahzero]

128. Simple

You say "Hitting a child is like hitting a woman." Comparing things isn't that hard... I'm sure it's a skill that you'll learn one day. One day, you might even graduate to being able to make an analogy, or use a metaphor!

Kids need to be spanked to be taught a lesson to never do the thing they did wrong again.

Or, you could punish them with logical consequences of their actions. But that might teach them rational thinking, too, rather than simply fear. It might even make them more moral people, since they could quite possibly learn not to do things for reasons other than "because it will end up hurting me."

[Pithlet]

134. One of the most sensible posts in this thread.

I hope some who think of spanking as necessary and harmless actually think about what you said.

[TufNeck]

64. Portland Oregon or Bust

Quote:There is taking away privileges that the child enjoys, and being CONSISTENT with that. That really is the key to it all, the child knowing that you mean it when you say you're taking away his Playstation for a week, or phone privileges. C'mon, I've seen your posts here... surely you're more creative than this?

Not every kid is a teenager and if you have to spank a kid for years, it's not working. I don't believe in spanking BUT I do consider it and do it as a LAST resort, when everything else has failed. I almost never do it. I also feel it's better suited to boys since they are more aggressive and less emotionally "fragile." Let's see how good it does to take something away from a two year old that bites another kid in the face. That's it, no more blanky for you! And you can forget about that playstation missy!

[belladonna]

72. Oh gee, let me be clear

I applied these methods throughout his entire LIFE.... not just when he was a teenager, and to my girls as well. That response was a specific reply to another about teenage boys.

[kiahzero]

129. Oh look! Sexism!

I also feel it's better suited to boys since they are more aggressive and less emotionally "fragile."

Good to know that sexist thinking regarding males is still alive and well.

[shimmergal]

135. Taking away privileges that the child has counted on is worse

than a mild spanking!

That was the way my mother usually disciplined me; taking away my allowance (for weeks on end) or some event I'd been looking forward to. It didn't teach me anything, but the sense of frustration and powerlessness it gave me was immense.

I'd much rather have had a spanking! The few I did get (with the hand on the bottom, only) waeren't very painful, and then the punishment was over. No cloud of gloom and resentment to hang over me for weeks! Actually, the hand spankings didn't hurt any more than shots at the doctor's office, or a trip to the dentist. Is anybody going to defend "protecting" children from these things as well?

I myself, as a parent, tended mostly to sit the kid down and have a talk with her about why what she did was wrong. Don't know if it "worked" or not, but my daughters still remember my "long, boring lectures," and not very fondly. Actually I think that, any form of discipline a parent tries, a kid can turn upside down. Most children grow up and become good citizens and moral people because of the examples they see around them and because it's expected of them, not through any "magic" form of discipline.

And why are we worrying so much about kids learning to use force and violence from spanking, when the biggest offender in this area is popular culture? How many movies show the "good guy" setting things right by bashing (or worse) his adversaries? Even cartoons do this. It's so ever-present, most of us don't even notice how many movies etc. are showing violence as the way to solve problems, until the violence gets truly over-the-top.

[HEyHEY]

65. If you wanna compare women to children......

DOn't find it a bit of a strange comparison?

[Misunderestimator]

69. Not at all... one is the stronger and one is the weaker. n/t

[belladonna]

70. I am comparing the outrage, or lack of outrage towards hurting a child

I'm sorry you don't agree or don't understand what I'm getting at. Just the fact that I'm seeing otherwise very cool people say with no qualms whatsoever that hitting a child is MORE okay than hitting a full grown woman is creeping me out enough that I'd really rather not continue this thread.

[TufNeck]

74. maybe

you have some issues of your own. Were you a victim of child abuse or of domestic violence? Spanking should only apply to young children. If you want to know about spanking teenagers or adults smacking eachother, that's just wrong all together. No discussion necessary on that.

[belladonna]

75. I CANNOT believe you just said that in a completely serious manner

Spanking should only apply to young children????? How young should we start teaching our children that we're bigger than them and we'll hurt them if they don't follow the rules? Do I have issues of my own? Sure, I was spanked as a kid, and yes, I have been a victim of domestic violence.... does that change anything?

[HEyHEY]

82. Honestly, I got spanked...but I think it did me well, I know others have

Differnt stories, but that's mine

[Misunderestimator]

86. How did the spankings benefit you?

and do you really think there was no other alternative?

[HEyHEY]

98. It taught me not to fuck around caused there'd be serious trouble

My mother tried to go the non-spank route...didn't work

[Misunderestimator]

78. WTF? First, why do you take it to the personal level of saying that

the poster must "have some issues" of their own... and second... :wtf: are you talking about? Young children?!? It's better for an adult to hit a child, than to hit another adult...????????????? Damn. I'm amazed.

[TufNeck]

92. are we

talking about "hitting" kids or "spanking" them? I did not say it was ok to HIT a kid. Also, spanking a kid has nothing to do with hitting another adult and is of no comparison. And yes, I mean young children. If you spank a teenager then you have issues and you probably should be slapped by another adult. Let me volunteer. I'm up for it. I wasn't implying anything when I asked if she had these issues herself. I was pointing out the obvious.
In a nutshell. Don't spank babies, don't spank teens, and don't "hit" ANYONE, regardless of age. Again, spanking, in my own experience, can be useful as a last resort. (ie: A 3 year old tries to put a paperclip in the electrical outlet or run in front of a car.....I'm not going to sit there and think about what I can take away so that I can get my point across. If I say NO, STOP, COME BACK! And my child laughs and runs toward the path of an on-coming car, a time out ain't gonna cut it, sorry.

[Misunderestimator]

97. Sorry, but I see no difference between spanking and hitting

They are both meant to exert control and are both painful. There are other ways to deal with a child that runs into the path of an oncoming car. Or are you just trying to give the child a taste of the pain that would be caused if they were hit by the car? :shrug:

[TufNeck]

110. I think you

need someone to show you the difference.

[Misunderestimator]

120. Ok, I'll bite.... what do you mean by that?

And welcome to DU btw

[Teddy_Salad]

88. Spanking should only apply to young children. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Fine philosophy that one.

If I smacked an adult on the arse or arms or legs hard I could be arrested.
But hey, I go and smack a 'young child' on the butt, arms or legs and all is right in the world.

But hey, I guess I'm just one of those bleedin' heart liberals who sees any form of physical punishment, no matter how minor, as rather sick and in far too many cases, a dangerous precursor to more violent actions.

I've been on the receiving end of it myself and it ain't pretty.

[TufNeck]

102. what

are you talking about? I'm not talking about smacking. I'm talking about spanking. And it's not a philosophy. Yes, young kids, as opposed to teenagers.

[Teddy_Salad]

131. What the fuck are you talking about?

There's a difference between spanking and smacking?

And why only spank or smack young kids as opposed to older ones?
Because the older ones might be able to kick your ass?

Unfuckingbelievable! :eyes:

[Pithlet]

106. They are both human beings

Children aren't human beings in training. They are people. They need boundaries, and they need to be taught right from wrong, but they are humans who are entitled to not be hit by anyone else, parents included.

[Misunderestimator]

73. To all the parents who spank their kids... I dedicate this song:

10,000 Maniacs

"What's the matter here"

That young boy without a name
Anywhere I'd know his face
In this city the kid's my favorite
I've seen him
I see him every day
Seen him run outside
Looking for a place to hide
From his father
The kid half naked
And said to myself
"O, what's the matter here?"

I'm tired of the excuses
Everybody uses
He's their kid
I stay out of it
But who gave you the right
To do this?

We live on Morgan Street
Just ten feet between
And his mother
I never see her
But her screams and cussing
I hear them every day
Threats like
"If you don't mind
I will beat on your behind"
"Slap you, slap you silly"
Made me say
"O, what's the matter here?"

I'm tired of the excuses
Everybody uses
He's your kid
Do as you see fit
But get this through
That I don't approve
Of what you did
To your own flesh and blood

I'm tired of the excuses
Everybody uses
He's your kid
Do as you see fit
But get this through
That I don't approve
Of what you did
To your own flesh and blood

"If you don't sit
In your chair straight
I'll take this belt
From around my waist
And don't you think
That I won't use it!"
Answer me and take your time
What could be the awful crime
He could do at such young an age?
If I'm the only witness
To your madness
Offer me some words to balance
Out what I see and what I hear
All these cold and rude
Things that you do
I suppose you do
Because he belongs to you
And instead of love
And the feel of warmth
You've given him these cuts
And sores won't heal
With time or age
I want to say
"What's the Matter here?"
But I don't dare say
"What's the Matter here?"
But I don't dare say

[tigereye]

81. I don't spank

I also recommend that people avoid physical punishment, when I work with families. And I don't think it is that effective. However, it is legal to spank in some states, and many of us had several spankings or threats of same and turned out ok. And many teens have taxed their parents to the point that they may occasionally lose control. Good decent parents that I have known included. Not sure that I am adding much to this that hasn't already been said, but... it is not good to judge people without really knowing the whole story. JMO

[sundog]

83. hey, that was the first band

& song that introduced me to liberal ideology at the age of 17... thanks for the reminder... there was also a great song by Suzanne Vega around the same time called "Luka."

[Misunderestimator]

84. You're welcome... seemed fitting here. n/t

[Teddy_Salad]

89. Yeah...Luka...

...was all about child abuse, wasn't it?

Heya Sundog! :hi:

I've missed ya man!!! :loveya:

[sundog]

101. I was in a serious funk, so I went for a run,

trying to detox my negative shit-- then I got back & this thread made me sad -- we're all feeling reflective tonight I think :hug:

[Misunderestimator]

108. And it's bringing back all kinds of shit....

and depressing as hell that people use the tame word "spank" and don't understand that it is really "hit"

[sundog]

112. some of us do our absolute best...

to block out our childhood ... I just looove unearthing crap from my subconscious mind -- ugh -- in the lounge of all places... oh, well...

I guess your experience puts you where you are... that's the best way of looking at it, for me at least...

[Misunderestimator]

118. Yes... and I wouldn't want to be anyone but who I am...

and my experience made me (hopefully) a more empathic and understanding person, and certainly made me stronger. It's frustrating to me though to see so many liberal people not understand the importance of this.

I really haven't given this much thought at all lately until these spanking threads showed up.. and yeah, in the lounge, of all places, to have to dig up the old shit.

:hi:

[sundog]

127. exactly...

I've learned after many years not to be hateful of the past, because it has only brought me to the person that I am at this moment.

If so many so-called "negative" things hadn't happened, I would have never sought my destiny with the fervor that I did. If I hadn't made conscious decisions, I could have easily just continued that cycle & there would have been no change. Things are passed from generation to generation & sooner or later someone has to step out.

Cool, I think you catch the drift :hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

96. I can see that dedicated to parents who beat their children, but not those

who spank them.

[Misunderestimator]

103. Spank, beat, hit... no difference to me n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

125. different to me...but we've gone that route together already...

:hi:

[Misunderestimator]

133. And I still don't see how there isn't an alternative...

After all, I meet belligerent people on a daily basis and I would never think of smacking them on their ass (well, I would THINK of it but wouldn't do it). There are alternatives to dealing with people that do not entail violence. Same with children.

[Misunderestimator]

123. Same f*cking thing. n/t

[slutticus]

85. Beating your adult partner is unacceptable....

...but spanking them is O.K.


:P

[taxidriver]

90. where did you get the inspiration for your SN? b/c there is a pornstar

with that stagename...

[belladonna]

94. Deadly poison... handle with extreme care N/T

[taxidriver]

107. what, BD is a deadly poison? or is calling your name a pornstar name pois

[belladonna]

113. Clarify? Your point?

Please?

[taxidriver]

116. i wasnt sure if you meant belladonna was the name of a poison, or if

i was stepping 'on poisonous ground' or something (i dunno) by implying that i thought it was a pornstar name?

[belladonna]

121. Google is a wonderful tool.....

Actually, I was being a smartass because I felt you were... my SN has to do with Stevie Nicks of Fleetwood Mac

[taxidriver]

140. ok. fleetwood mac is cool.

...and google "belladonna" searches are hella fun. yowza.

[Donkeyboy75]

95. Here we go again.

One size fits all parenting. Giving your kid a swat on the ass occassionally and beating the shit out of them are apples and oranges.

Different children need different systems of discipline. It's a fact. There is no one thing that works for everyone. And no, I'm not condoning abuse.

But I can say I was spanked a few times in my life. It worked best for me. Nothing else did. Belladonna, I'm glad your system worked for you, but time out would have been water off my back.

[ScreamingMeemie]

99. But you only think it didn't affect you Donkeyboy...or so I am now

being told by some. I agree with you wholeheartedly and am sitting here stunned by those who equate spanking to beating. My father spanked us and then spoke with us...on our level. Combined, it worked.

[Donkeyboy75]

130. *sigh* Yes, I know.

I always get pulled into these threads, even though nobody ever changes their mind. I think that people come from some many different perspectives, and this issue is (rightly so) so inflammatory, that people miss others' points of view. I thought discussion boards were for that purpose. :shrug:

[belladonna]

105. I don't remember saying that I exclusively used timeouts

I found a variety of ways to teach him that there were consequences for his behavior and I was CONSISTENT. I don't particularly buy into spanking doesn't equal hitting, mostly because it's just ridiculous. How do you spank a kid without using physical force and aggression against him or her?

[Donkeyboy75]

115. I didn't say that you did. I was using an example.

Look, I'm going to try to avoid a flame war here, because most posting in this thread (with possibly one notable exception :scared:) would agree: abuse is bad. I think some are sensitive to ANY sort of physical punishment due to nasty abusive childhoods. I understand that.

And, technically, yes, spanking is hitting. But it certainly isn't "beating."

My father is about as left as you can get. He didn't believe in spanking, and my younger sister was NEVER spanked. Why? The discpline structure my parents used worked on her. For a multitude of reasons, they didn't work on me. They didn't just try time outs. They tried taking away my toys (didn't work...I always found ways to amuse myself), grounding me, assigning extra chores, etc. I was simply stubborn and bull-headed as a young child. They would never hit me during a fit of rage. I was sent to my room, and about ten minutes later I'd get a couple of swats on the ass. To me, no big deal, and my parents were good enough parents to know it was no big deal.

And as far as the point of some parents not being able to draw the line at spanking, and not beating? I agree. But that doesn't make the parents who CAN handle it bad parents. Again, congrats on raising great kids with your method. But I guarantee it won't work for all children. Human beings vary way too much from individual to individual.

[Teddy_Salad]

114. Here's my problem with that

And I agree that some parents may not go beyond a 'smack' but here's where I have trouble with the "Oh, it's only a smack" argument.

There are some parents who will start off with a smack but will then, out of frustration or because they can't be bothered to spend the energy and time working with the kid, who soon progress to hitting their kids hard, in a violent manner. Physical abuse.

And it doesn't matter if that's only a very small percentage of children it happens to.
One is too many.

I've been on the receiving end of a father who couldn't be bothered spending time with me and working through the problems we had with one another.
No, it was far quicker for him to smack me and then literally lay into me with a leather belt when his frustration became too much and then walk away, leaving me feeling bitter towards and hating him.

I know some here, and I'm not saying you do but there are some here who see sitting down and actually talking to a child to at least attempt to work things out as "wussy" and a "waste of time".

Well I've spent the past 20 odd years wishing my own father had of at least tried that instead of belting the living crap out of me and leaving a part of me hating him for it even to this day.

[Donkeyboy75]

119. I agree, and I think my post (115) addresses some of this.

I think the difference between our childhoods, then, was that my parents did reason with me, and explain their actions. Even with spankings I was told why I was disciplined. My parents did work through issues with me, which is why their system worked for me. They have always made it clear that they loved me, and I think they did a hell of a job as parents. And I was never even close to having the shit beat out of me.

I am truly sorry for any person who has been subjected to abuse. There is no excuse for it. I'm sorry you had to experience it.

[Misunderestimator]

137. And THAT will never go away.

My father and I after more than 20 years are finally talking to eachother on a somewhat regular basis. (Our hatred of Bush has brought us together... go figure.) But what happened in my childhood will never go away... even if the trauma and pain made me a better person, there will never be an excuse for what happened. With all we know now, no real liberal would ever condone violence against a child.

:hug:

[Zomby Woof]

111. Spank me!

[Donkeyboy75]

122. You must give us all a good spanking!

Ah, the Castle Anthrax. Need to visit there someday.

[HuckleB]

117. Good point.

Spanking actually teaches the wrong thing: That might makes right. It doesn't teach a kid why he should do something or shouldn't do something else. It's an admission of a failure to connect, to communicate with a child. It's a lazy way of parenting. I know some people don't want to hear that, but bottom lines are bottom lines.

[Donkeyboy75]

124. And reading lines out of child rearing books

is reading lines out of child rearing books. That's a very simplistic view of things. Spanking by itself may teach nothing, but then again neither do most disciplinary tactics. They must be used in conjunction with reason.

[HuckleB]

126. You can connect reason to violence?

Sorry, you can't. It's an admiission to failure of relationship and communication, nothing more, nothing less. Your attempt to simplify my statements by portraying them with cynicism is weak. Please don't feign as if you understand the complexities while I am but a petty simpleton. That's just baloney.

Reality is: The best parents I come across don't spank. There is a damn good reason for that.

[Donkeyboy75]

132. Really? Worked for me.

' "You can connect reason to violence?"
Sorry, you can't. It's an admiission to failure of relationship and communication, nothing more, nothing less. '

And you accuse me of oversimplifying? Mmmmmkay.... :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

138. And if spanking worked for you... are you saying that there was...

absolutely no alternative? Really? Then we really do live in a very violent society.

[Donkeyboy75]

141. In certain circumstances, for me, yes.

And yes, we do live in a violent society.

[Maine Mary]

136. An aquiantaince of mine once told me

That she spanked her child because he had been hiting other kids at daycare. I wish I had the guts then that I do now; as I would have asked her why SHE hit her kid because HE was hitting? :crazy:

[Misunderestimator]

139. Exactly. What the hell does that teach a child? n/t