I have a VERY interesting question for ALL you guys out there!

[battleknight24]

Have you heard about this teacher from Florida who has been arrested for having sex with a 14 year old boy? Her name is Debra Beasley Lafave. Here are a couple of links to some articles:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C124479%2C00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/06/29/teacher.sex.ap/

(If these links don't work, just search using yahoo or google...)

Also, do a search on yahoo or google and take a look at some of her photos... then answer this question.


* * * * *
- If you were the father of this 14 year old boy, what would you say to him when you found out he had sex with this woman:

a. "Son, if you EVER do something like this again, I swear you better hope I don't find out or I'll..."

b. "Son, I am very angry and hurt by your actions."

c. "Son, I am very dissapointed, but I understand what happened. She took advantage of you."

d. "Son," you try to say with tear-choked words, "I am so proud."

e. "Son, you are more of a man than I will ever be."

f. None of the above (please specify what you would say...)




Peace,

[JSJ]

1. son... it's time I had a little 'talk' with your teacher...

...do you think she's free Saturday nite?

[slinkerwink]

2. fuck the double standard! it was child molestation!

You know you'd be up in arms about it if it was some male teacher that had sex with a young 14 year old girl.

Instead you're cheering this molestation. Ugh. :puke:

[Itchinjim]

5. Were you ever a14 year old boy?

It ain't child molestation, it is like winning the freaking lottery

[Redhead488]

21. 'Zackly

the kid won the lottery. It's almost every straight 14 year old boy's dream.

[Susang]

104. Get some help, both of you

It was his TEACHER, he was molested. There is an inherent abuse of power here, and a 14 year old boy, no matter how horny, is not capable of legal consent.

Or have you forgotten how fucked up the boy Mary Kay Latourno (sp?) molested turned out? I believe he was about 13 or 14 at the time she started up with him.

[belladonna]

193. So I'm curious then

If the teacher had given him an ounce or two of marijuana, would your reaction be the same? I mean, that might be HIS idea of a dream come true. Or maybe if she'd taken him somewhere and gotten him drunk... hey!! to a strip club, perhaps.... now there's a dream come true for any 14 year old boy.

It IS child molestation, plain and simple... the fact that it's a teacher makes it doubly hard to stomach. How many 14 year old boys do you know who are capable of making adult decisions? Seriously? And what if it were your 14 year old son? Better yet, what if it were your 14 year old daughter? I'm willing to bet you'd change your tune FAST if it were your kid being taken advantage of by an obviously disturbed woman.

Just because a kid that age WANTS something doesn't make it okay for this teacher to use her position to prey on him to satisfy her sexual needs. End of story.

[slinkerwink]

24. no, it's not. if it's child molestation for a 14 year old girl, it's the

SAME for a young 14 year old boy. If this had happened to a nine year old or an eleven year old boy, would you still be saying he was so lucky?

[ProfessorGAC]

132. You & Susan Are Right

This is preposterous. The woman needs serious psychological attention. And, she committed a criminal act.
The Professor

[Susang]

155. Hi Prof!

Thanks for the support! :-)

[taxidriver]

64. i'll second that. god, i dont ever remember being as horny as when i was

14.

but still, she did take advantage of him, and his life did get pretty fucked up afterwards.

[battleknight24]

6. yeah... you have a very good point...

.

[JVS]

20. What she said

Slinkerwink is right.

[HuckleB]

166. Exactly. Abuse is abuse.

It's time folks learned to understand this. Puberty isn't an excuse for grown men to take advantage of teenage girls, and it's not an excuse for grown women to take advantage of teenage boys.

[Itchinjim]

3. F, none of the above,

I'd tell him that at fourteen I would have fucked mud, and he should consider himself damned lucky. But don't do it again until you're eighteen.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[battleknight24]

7. sorry...

.

[Itchinjim]

8. Well, not to YOU anyway.

[Swamp Rat]

16. It depends on the country. 23 and 14 is just fine in many countries.

"You're an idiot. Please don't ever say anything ever again."

[shimmergal]

185. So true. In typical American style, we're ignoring the

long cultural tradition of older women initiating teenage boys into the mysteries of sex. And vice versa (older men initiating teenage girls) also.

There's zero evidence that all such kids are traumatized or need extensive counseling. Overall, they may no more harmed than those that do it the more currently approved way; i.e. clueless 16-year-olds trying to "initiate" each other.

In this case, though, I do think the older woman acted irresponsibly.
Because; 1) she was his teacher, and thus in a position of trust and power over him, and 2) she broke the first rule of a liaison with a teenager. Instead of just sharing good sex and showing him how to shower pleasure and affection on a woman, she compounded the mistake by "falling in love." And apparently convincing him that it
was "love", too.

If you're going to color outside the lines, for Ghod's sake don't muddy it up by insisting that it's justified by "true love." Monica, in her naivete, made the same mistake.

Just my opinion, which I expect will be wildly unpopular.

[greymattermom]

9. 9 years

Dr. Laura says keep your differences in age to 9 years or less for a successful relationship :)

[murielm99]

10. Dr. Laura can go Cheney herself.

Have you seen her naked pictures?

[battleknight24]

11. Maybe it should be 8 years...

.

[JohnnyRingo]

12. I gotta admit.....

I somehow, didn't expect her to be so...uhhhh....atractive.

This kid can be writing the Penthouse forum for the next two years.

[fujiyama]

13. Yeah

she wasn't bad looking.

I don't think there are enough details about this case to make a decision. If it was consensual, I wouldn't say it's the same as rape - more like statutory rape.

Still, she was a teacher and was in a position of power much higher than the boy so that has to be considered as well.

[guitar man]

14. It all depends

Each individual boy is different at that age in terms of maturity and understanding. It is going to be important to get plenty of counseling for him, as this could be a very damaging experience in the long run.

I know when I was 14, I was just walking around with a perpetual stiffie looking for a place to put it. I think if it were me, I probably would have come out of the ordeal pretty ok with it. It may be vastly different for this young man.

My major concern would be what kind of feelings he has developed for this woman and if he winds up blaming himself for her going to jail. I believe it is going to be crucial for the counselors to make sure he isn't eaten up by guilt over all this. While the sex itself might not have been a traumatic experience for the boy, the sudden seperation, shame, humiliation and guilt certainly might be.

[unblock]

15. "if this relationship will stand the test of time,

then it will stand the test of time without sex until you're 18.
there are potential consequences to having sex that, as a 14 year old, you are not prepared to deal with. you probably FEEL prepared to deal with them, but you are not.

for instance, i'm sure you used birth control. you DID use birth control, didn't you? well, in any event, birth control can fail. she might have said she'd get an abortion if that happened, but she might change her mind. sometimes women do that once they become pregnant. either way, that can be a very traumatic thing to deal with.

more importantly, it has implications for our whole family. once you're 18, you're legally and morally free to make your own decisions. but before them, we're legally responsible for you. if a baby is involved, your mother and i could be forced to help raise the baby. how would you support a family while you're still in school? and no, you are NOT dropping out. did you ASK your mother and i if we'd be willing to raise another baby? no, you didn't."


of course, all this assumes that my understanding is that there is an actual relationship here. it's more likely that it's all about the sex. if that's the case, then my answer is more authoritarian:

"it's over. end it NOW. no sex until you're 18."

[neverborn]

17. What the fuck is your problem?

Slinkerwink's right. This is bullshit sexism. Think if it was a 14 year old girl that had sex with a 23 year old MAN.

She is a child molestor and belongs in PRISON.

[RC]

18. And if she was seduced by the 14 year old...?

Two things every one needs to remember:

1) The United States is very sexually repressed. (Read psychotic and paranoid)

2) The human mind has a infinite capacity to rationalize absolutely anything.

[slinkerwink]

25. doesn't matter who-seduced-who

it's still child molestation and statutory rape.

[Redhead488]

27. Yeah, it is...but it's silly

I think for it to be a crime, someone had to have had some "harm" done. Ask the kid if he thinks any harm was done to him.

[slinkerwink]

29. you don't know the kid....he probably was harmed by this

especially a kid who wasn't ready for sex, and who was taken advantage of by a teacher. Teachers aren't supposed to molest children or teenagers. This one did.

[Redhead488]

31. How do you know he wasn't "ready" for sex?

I sure as hell was at 14. I think that MOST guys (not all) see this differently, as we were once 14 year old boys...he KNOW what 14 year old boys are thinking...and trying to do. Sorry, but you need to accept that boys are wired differently.

[chicaloca]

93. Please provide some proof that boys are "wired" differently.

The only difference between a 14-year-old girl's sex drive and and a 14-year-old boys is that boys feel they can talk about their sex drives, and the media tells them it's okay to be horny. I was horny as hell when I was 12, for fuck's sake, so don't give me this "guys like sex more" bullshit. It's stereotypical and old-fashioned as hell.

Furthermore, if he's so goddamn horny, why didn't he have sex with a girl who was closer to his age? Or get a pocket pussy? That's worked out perfectly well for my brother. But instead he was coerced into a sexual relationship with SOMEBODY WHO HAS POWER OVER HIM. As a manager at work, I'm not allowed to date the people I supervise, and my boss (a guy) isn't allowed to date any of the lower-level managers or, well, anybody at work. And quite frankly, we manage fine. Nobody was putting a gun to this teacher's head to make her do this. She took advantage of a naive kid, plain and simple. And the law, quite rightly, isn't going to make exceptions for a child molester just because she happens to be "hot".

[Redhead488]

112. I'm sorry, you are right.

Boys and girls, men and women, are EXACTLY the same. There are no differences between the sexes. We both react to and respond to sexually stimuli the same way. Women have the EXACT same hormonal makeup as men. I'm sorry, I did not realize that. Please forgive me.

[chicaloca]

121. I'm sorry, you're not a woman

And as such, I don't understand why you think you know so goddamn much about women's sex drives. Just because somebody told you women don't like sex as much as men doesn't mean it's true. Also, you still haven't provided any credible evidence that 14-year-old girls are less horny than guys of that age. Sometimes it helps to reexamine things you've always just assumed to be true. It's called questioning your assumptions.

[Redhead488]

124. I didn't say ANYTHING about women's sex drives

I just said we are DIFFERENT. And I knew plenty (well a few) of horny 14 yo girls.

[chicaloca]

135. Okay, so....

You accept that 14-year-old girls are horny as well. Then do you also think that it would be okay for a male teacher to have sex with a 14-year-old female student?

[Redhead488]

140. No.

I don't think it's EVER okay for a teacher to have sex with one of his/her students.

[chicaloca]

158. All right, but...

You said you don't think what the teacher did was a crime. Would it be if it were a female student and a male teacher?

[HallowsEve]

149. Being horny and

the MOTIVATION for that horniness are totally different.

[HallowsEve]

148. 2 things

Have kids if you need proof of the different hardwiring.

Laws are laws and bullshit....but since we live in a legislatively addicted society, yes the woman broke the friggen law and yes she can go to prison and it will prove that Americans don't take no shit!!

One reason men and women are treated differently when it comes to sex is that women take a person INSIDE of them. Many hetero men do not. That is a big difference physically, emotionally, spiritually and mentally. This is not prejudice, it is common sense in my opinion. If I were a woman I would be more careful BECAUSE of this fact. If I were a gay man I would be more careful because of this. Not only for disease, but the spiritual bonding that occurs in our society where the casual sex myth is SO well propagated (the myth being it is healthy and positive to f**k around) 10~31 ~O~

[HuckleB]

169. What a ridiculous question. She is the adult.

This has nothing to do with "sexual repression."

Power differentials are very clear in such a situation. It's abuse, pure and simple. She's a mandatory reporter of abuse. She knows what's what.

[Redhead488]

22. It's one of those things that is just "different"

can't really explain it...but boys at 14 are STILL sexual predators; we'd screw anything that let us. The teacher did. She maybe needs mental help, but NO WAY does she deserve prison.

[slinkerwink]

26. so then...

with your logic of 14 year old boys as sexual predators, it's okay if they rape girls just because those boys are assumed to be sexual at that age?

[Redhead488]

28. Where did I say it was okay to rape anyone?

Fourteen year old boys ARE sexual predators; they will screw any girl that lets them--that doesn't mean they resort to violence. Rape, as women so often shout, has NOTHING to do with sex; it's about violence.

[slinkerwink]

30. you're wrong on that

many young boys are NOT sexual predators.

[Redhead488]

32. BS

At 14, boys want sex (if they have passed puberty). They talk about it, fantasize about it, masturbate thinking about it, think about it some more, and dream of ways of getting it. Maybe "predator" is the wrong word...opportunist is better. If the opportunity is there, they will screw.

[Catholic Sensation]

34. I must have stepped into an alternate universe

where adults can have sex with kids.

You know if you give kids the opportunity to do cocaine, some will do it too, what kind of bullshit excuse are you trying to give here?

[Redhead488]

37. I'm not giving an excuse

She was "wrong." Does she deserve to go to jail, no. I feel that if no harm was done to the kid, she should not go to prison. Mental help, yes. Prison, no.

[Catholic Sensation]

38. SHE COMMITTED RAPE

WHEN IS RAPE NOT A CRIME?

[Redhead488]

40. It's STATUTORY RAPE

as opposed to rape; there is a difference; look it up. She doesn't deserve to go to jail, IMHO.

[Catholic Sensation]

42. sorry what is the last word in that two word crime you just posted?

there are different types of rape, just like there are different types of cancer, but guess what LUNG CANCER IS CANCER JUST LIKE TESTICULAR CANCER IS CANCER.

She deserves to go to jail for this.

[Redhead488]

45. Wrong...look up the definitions of the two types

of "rape." They are not the same. One is without consent, the other is WITH consent. The kid was not a victim here.

[Catholic Sensation]

47. okay fine

I'm 21 years old, and for the sake of my argument, let's say you have a 12 year old daughter. If she gave her consent, would you mind if I had sex with her?

[Redhead488]

49. If she gave her consent,

No. But I sure hope I had raised her better than that.

[Catholic Sensation]

50. i don't believe a word of that

[Redhead488]

52. Don't

[MichiganVote]

97. Consent

The law determines that a 12 year old or a 14 year old cannot give informed consent.

[Catholic Sensation]

111. BINGO

and that's why this is rape.

[MichiganVote]

115. As defined by the law, yes.

Yes, yes, and yes this is considered criminal behavior. As defined by the opinions whose knowledge of child development approaches that of the rusted backend of a pick up truck parked in the bayous of Lousiana--no.

[Redhead488]

114. Not true;

if that were the case, then sex between 14 year olds would be rape as well...it isn't.

[slinkerwink]

43. it's still RAPE

you have NO idea whether the kid gave consent or not, and regardless of that, he is too YOUNG to be fucked by an ADULT.

[Redhead488]

51. Yes we do know that he gave consent

otherwise she would not be charged with STATUTORY rape!

[slinkerwink]

54. it's still rape.

and it's WRONG for a teacher to take advantage of a 14 year old child.

[slinkerwink]

36. of course they'd fantasize about sex, but in actuality, they are NOT ready

for sex and a young 14 year old boy being taken advantage of by a 23 year old teacher is still sexually molested by her.

It's so fucked up that many here would immediately slam a 23 year old male teacher who sexually molested a 14 year old girl, and yet cheer on a 23 year old female teacher sexually molesting a 14 year old boy. They ignore that the same "hormones" exist in both genders at that young age, but that boys are equally as unable to really deal with sex at that age with an older woman. That older woman took advantage of him and sexually molested him. What she did to him was WRONG.

There are MANY teenage boys who won't screw at the drop of a hat because *gasp* many of them want to be in a happy monogamous relationship with a woman that they're ready to have sex with at an older age.

[Redhead488]

39. Uhh , 14 year old boys ARE ready

for sex. They've been doing it for millions of years. Don't give me that "emotional" crap...it's not the same for boys.

Sorry, the VAST majority of teen boys would happily jump that 23 yo teacher if given the chance.

[Catholic Sensation]

41. and you have statistics to back this up I assume?

because as a fourteen year old I wouldn't have had sex with a 23 year old teacher. But I guess I was weird, because I was only attracted to girls around my age...

[Redhead488]

46. Don't need stats

for that. Gimme a break, EVERY 14 yo boy I knew would have done her.

[slinkerwink]

57. fuck that. There are plenty of 14 year old boys that don't want

sex at that age because they know they're not ready for it. Plus, there are many 14 year old boys that are interested in girls their own AGE.

[Redhead488]

59. Sure, there are SOME

but they are in the minority.

[slinkerwink]

63. how do you know based on your errant anecdotal evidence that

they're in the minority? where are the stats?

[Redhead488]

73. Perhaps we need to conduct another study

along the lines of "College students drink more when beer is cheap" (an actual study, btw). It's pretty common knowledge that most 14 yo boys wanna fuck, I don't need a study to tell me that.

[slinkerwink]

79. *shakes head*

you're so in the wrong here.

[Redhead488]

82. In your opinion

Not in mine. Does she need mental help? Yes! Jail? No.

[HallowsEve]

153. If they are not "READY FOR IT"

it is because they would come so fast and lack confidence and skill. Emotionally, it cannot be predicted. NOTHING CAN BE!!

[slinkerwink]

44. I call bullshit on that

[Redhead488]

48. You're a girl, right?

What do you know about the desires of 14 yo boys?

[slinkerwink]

53. what do you know about the desires of 14 year old girls?

we've got sex on our minds too at that age. It does not mean that boys or girls at 14 are ready for sex, or ready to be sexually molested by an older person, especially a teacher.

[Redhead488]

56. Who are you to determine

if a person is "ready" for sex? Nature determines that all on it's own. Newsflash: Teens have sex ALL the time!

[slinkerwink]

60. who ARE you to determine that just because you're a guy that

you automatically assume that ALL 14 year old boys would've done her? One of the posters, NeoProgressive, just said that if he was 14, he wouldn't have had sex with that teacher.

[Redhead488]

66. I didn't say ALL

I said majority. Neo, may be gay for all I know, and would not have done any girl. Neo may have been afraid of girls. Neo is just one.

[Catholic Sensation]

69. do you have a reading comprehension problem

I said I was attracted to girls my age. Jesus Christ.

[Redhead488]

76. Sexually?

Did you wanna screw them?

[Catholic Sensation]

84. no, hannibal lecter, grammatically attracted to them

you see I wanted to be a playwrite when I was fourteen and girls spoke much better English than boys, so I became grammatically atracted to girls.

A stupid question deserves an equally stupid answer.

But because I know you don't get what the hell I'm saying. I was sexually attracted to girls ONLY my age. I would never sleep with a woman 9 years my senior when I was in the 8th grade.

[Redhead488]

101. I was making a joke...sarcastic...rude perhaps

I bet those 13 and 15 year olds missed out...since you ONLY were attracted to girls your own age.

[Catholic Sensation]

108. first post on this insanely stupid topic I said around my age

sorry I didn't know I needed to make everything 100% clear everytime I posted.

[Redhead488]

110. Neo, chill

Can't you see that I'm just messing with you? ;-)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

137. Redhead, since when is pedophilia something we should be joking about.

You make me wanna :puke:
Duckie

[wjsander]

105. Oh man...

Let me tell ya... you're missin out. :7

[Catholic Sensation]

55. because both genders know absolutely nothing about the other gender

:eyes:

[Redhead488]

58. A girl doesn't KNOW how a 14 yo boy feels

period. No way, no how. NO woman understands what it is to BE a man. How can you even debate that?

[Catholic Sensation]

61. because I'm not stupid?

[slinkerwink]

62. you're assuming that girls have less hormones than guys do

which is bullshit.

[Redhead488]

67. Where did I say that?

But, boys and girls ARE different.

[slinkerwink]

70. doesn't excuse the double standard

fuck that.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

81. FUCK THAT! I do not excuse SEXISM just because that's the way it is

[Redhead488]

83. Sexism?

Sorry, but the "sexes" are not the same. Men behave differently, it's a fact of life. Get over it.

[slinkerwink]

86. it's not a fact of life....

it's sexism.

[Redhead488]

87. Blame God or the Goddess

or whomever for making men and women different.

[Catholic Sensation]

89. you're talking like we're two different species

[Redhead488]

91. No. Just from different planets! :-)

[chicaloca]

210. Because then nobody will blame the real culprit

Sexist people who tell women to "just get over" sexism.

[chicaloca]

207. Yeah, and people of color should just get over racism.

What a clever attempt at telling somebody to shut up.

[Misunderestimator]

212. Now THERE's a progressive attitude for you.

Is this still a progressive board? I'm beginning to wonder, really.

:freak:

[Catholic Sensation]

217. wow i wish i had seen that a couple hours ago

A guy who screws 1o0 girls is a stud; a girl who screws 100 guys is a slut. It's not fair, but that's the way it is.

is this your personal view, because you really need to sort out some issues you have with women if you believe this.

A guy who screws "1o0" girls is nothing but a lowlife scumbag.

[AngryAmish]

99. Most females have way less testosterone than males

Lots of testosterone tends to increase sex drive.

Guys who are cycling steroids are extremely horny when on an up cycle, and have little or no sex drive when on a down cycle.

Can women know how men feel? Sure, they can empathize and can discuss issues that relate to men. However, if one has not walked in another's shoes one is at a disadvantage.

[chicaloca]

131. But...

" In males, testosterone of gonadal origin is converted to estrogen in the brain by an enzyme, aromatase, which is also present in females."

http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/content/abstract/743/1/61

[AngryAmish]

139. And that means?

My biochemistry is a tad rusty.

[chicaloca]

156. This article is a little more clear.

Basically, estrogen helps cause "copulatory" behavior (ie, makes people and animals want to get it on) and testosterone is converted into estrogen once it reaches the brain. Also, outside influences, more than biology, are responsible for many of the sex-drive differences we observe between the sexes. That's not to say that there are no differences other than anatomy between the sexes, just that there are a lot fewer differences than conventional wisdom would have us believe.

Crews uses this research to argue against the simplistic theory that chromosomes cause gonadal sex, which through hormones causes masculine or feminine characteristics and sexual behaviors. In particular he argues against the notion, which goes along with this understanding, that males are the "organized" or differentiated sex, and females the "default" sex (that is, that the action of androgens causes males to develop, while females are produced in the absence of androgens).6 Part of his argument here is evidence that both of the so-called female hormones--estrogen and progesterone--may play an active role in male sexuality. In some species, including humans and rats, testosterone is converted to estrogen in the brain and activates both male and female copulatory behaviors (Crews 1994, 103; Ehrhardt 1984, 40). As Rogers states,

Males secrete the so-called "female" sex hormone, oestrogen, and females secrete the "male" sex hormone, testosterone. Indeed, some females have higher plasma levels of testosterone than do some males. In the brain, where sex hormones are meant to cause sex differences in behavior, the distinction between the sexes becomes even less distinct. There are no known sex differences in the binding of oestrogen in the hypothalamic area of the brain, let alone binding at higher levels of brain organisation; and testosterone must be converted to oestrogen intracellularly before it can act on neurones. (1988, 44)

As both Rogers and Crews point out then, animals do not form entirely male or female brains, and, in animals such as rats, female nerve circuits are not lost in males, hormone administration can cause them to be activated (Rogers 1988, 45; Crews 1994). It is the interacting roles of the social, environmental, and hormonal that cause any particular male or female behavior in animals.

These examples of the interaction of the social and the biological in nonhuman animals are useful challenges to the theories outlined in part one, because they demonstrate that even in supposedly "simple" animals such as rats and chicks (animals that are used as models in these sciences to argue for biological causality of behaviors), and lizards, birds, and fish, sexually differentiated behaviors are not caused by biology. Even though hormones are understood to play an important role in the production of these behaviors, this role cannot be theorized in isolation from the animal's physical environment and its interactions with other animals. If the behavior of "simple" animals is not caused biologically, then how can a legitimate claim be made in relation to humans, who are perceived within science as more complicated and complex than these other animals?

http://iupjournals.org/nwsa/nws12-3.html

[MichiganVote]

102. Informed consent

is not the same as readiness for sex. This person is a predator. that makes her a threat to society. But you want to offer the mutt a home, be our guest. We save the money on jail and you become her keeper.

Have at it.

[taxidriver]

65. we're really not cheering on the teacher...we're cheering the 14 y/o.

and i bet all his friends did the same freaking thing.

ever hear 14 year old guys talk about that kinda thing?

[slinkerwink]

72. they talk, and think about it....it doesn't mean they're READY

besides, there have been plenty of 14 year old boys who were sexually molested by older teachers, and they've been mentally damaged as a result. The same'll happen to this one.

[taxidriver]

77. true, we'll see how he is 10 years from now.

[Redhead488]

Still with a GREAT big smile on his face everytime

he hear's Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher"

[Redhead488]

78. Really?

Show me some of the "plenty" who were "mentally damaged" by this.

[slinkerwink]

85. here you go!

One of the long-standing myths about sexual abuse is that men or boys are rarely victims of sexual abuse, especially with women as the sexual aggressors—that a woman cannot make a man have sex with her against his will. This timely article by the Doctors Struckman-Johnson helps to disabuse us of this myth. Prevailing stereotypes about boys and men are that they must "want it." Stereotypes about women's physical weakness, disinterest in sex, sex-role passiveness and gentle nature lead many people to assume that women are not capable of such an act, as Dr. Peter B. Anderson (Anderson and Dr. Cindi Struckman-Johnson pointed out in 1998 in the book they edited, Sexually Aggressive Women.
Debunking the myth

In reality, the authors of this article point out, research has long shown that substantial numbers of men are subjected to the sexually aggressive behavior of female strangers, acquaintances and lovers.

Over a decade ago, Dr. Struckman-Johnson found that 16% of a sample of 268 men at a small Midwestern university reported that they had been forced to have sexual intercourse on a date. A bit later she and Dr. David Struckman-Johnson reported that 30% of another sample of 204 college men had experienced an incident of pressured or forced sexual contact with a female perpetrator. For 20% of the men, the incident resulted in sexual intercourse. In yet another survey, 43% of 318 men reported having had at least one coercive sexual experience with a woman since the age of 16, culminating in sexual intercourse for 27% of the men (Anderson and Struckman-Johnson, 1998).

Other researchers have found the same thing. One study found that 24% of 171 men at an Eastern college had been coerced into sexual intercourse. Another found that 24% of a sample of 182 college men in California had unwanted sex with an insistent woman in the past five years. In a survey of two Canadian universities, 24% of 156 men had experienced some type of sexual coercion in heterosexual dating. Among a sample of 165 fraternity men at a Western college, 21% experienced unwanted sexual contact.

How does it happen?

How does a woman accomplish sexual coercion of an adolescent or adult male? The Struckman-Johnsons do an excellent job of laying out the dynamics:

... women are most likely to use psychological pressure such as verbal pleading and arguments, emotional blackmail, and deception. Another common approach of sexually aggressive women is to take advantage of a man's intoxicated state. A typical scenario, according to male victims, involves a predatory woman who encounters an inebriated man (or contributes to his drinking) and pursues him until he falls asleep or passes out. The woman then manually or orally stimulates him to erection and mounts him for sexual intercourse.
Sexually aggressive women only occasionally resort to force tactics, which we define as intimidation with size, threats of harm including blackmail, physical restraint, physical harm or use of a weapon. In our surveys, about 12% or less of male victims reported that a woman used force against them, but in most cases, the force was not extreme. Women locked men into cars, blocked their retreat from a room, grabbed at them, threw them down on beds and floors, sat on them, and tied them up. In some instances, women pinched, slapped and hit men who tried to stop their advances. A few men reported that women blackmailed them into having sex by threatening to divulge damaging information to parents, employers or girlfriends.

How do Men React?

The Struckman-Johnsons tell us that only a few studies have exclusively examined the effects of female sexual coercion of adult men. In 1982 Masters and a colleague reported on the emotional impact on 11 men who had been sexually molested by females. In the course of counseling for sexual problems, the men revealed recent and past incidents of forcible rape, abuse by a baby-sitter, incest and assault by a dominant woman. The authors documented a posttraumatic reaction involving depression and sexual aversion and dysfunction.

Most of the information about male reactions to female sexual coercion comes from surveys of college men. The survey of college fraternity men mentioned earlier discovered that the men who had experienced sexual coercion had more depressive symptoms, more alcohol use and more alcohol-related problems than fraternity men who had not been sexually coerced. Another found that male victims had a range of positive to negative reactions to unwanted sexual contact at the time it happened. Nearly 40% of male victims reported being not at all upset, whereas 17% were extremely upset at the time of the incident. One-fifth of the men indicated that the incident decreased their involvement in social activities, and 19% had impairment of academic functioning.

The Struckman-Johnsons' own research bears out that college men have mixed reactions to female sexual coercion. In their 1988 study, 25% said they felt good about being forced to have sexual intercourse, 50% felt neutral and 25% felt bad. One-fifth of the victims reported that long-term effects had occurred. In their 1994 study, almost half of the male victims rated the incident as having no negative impact, but 23% reported moderate to severe negative impact. We found no differences in sexual self-esteem between men with and without coercion experience. In a similar survey in 1998, 33% of male victims rated the incident as having no effect, 30% were mildly to moderately upset, and 14% had a severe negative effect. Overall, they say, at least one out of five men has a strong negative reaction to sexual coercion from a woman.

We speculate that many men are not upset by female sexual coercion because men are expected to initiate and to pursue ever-increasing levels of sexual intimacy with female partners. When a man is confronted with a sexually aggressive woman, he is likely to view it as a positive opportunity to have sex, not a violation of will. One researcher speculated that female sexual coercion may even enhance a man's reputation and thus prevent negative effects. Men may also feel that they have little to fear from a smaller, weaker female perpetrator. It is also possible that men deny or minimize their victimization because of masculine standards to be self-reliant.

The researchers found that men distressed by female sexual coercion particularly when:

A woman uses physical restraint against him. Even if the man knows that he can escape, he is still likely to feel shocked, confused and possibly frightened by a woman's use of force.
A woman exploits him while he is intoxicated, especially if the woman is unattractive. (Dozens of men in this situation told researchers how upsetting it was to be unable to physically stop the sexual interaction. Others resented the woman for taking away their right to choose who they would have sex with.
A young man with conservative sexual standards loses his virginity to a sexually coercive woman, who is usually older. Numerous young men reported that this type of incident prevented them from having their "first time" with a partner who was specially chosen and well-loved. When a sexually aggressive woman causes a man to betray another woman in his life.
When the woman is a powerful authority figure. For example, in a recent study, we found that some men in prison were profoundly upset when female staff coerced them into sexual activity.

The Struckman-Johnsons' own research did not systematically assess the nature of psychological trauma experienced by male victims. Written survey comments and interviews, however, revealed that men who are very upset by an incident of female sexual coercion are likely to experience subsequent distrust and wariness around women and to have relationship difficulties.

Men who are sexually coerced by either a woman or a man are unlikely to report the incident to the police, tend not to reveal the sexual incident if they seek medical treatment, and are unlikely to seek psychological support or therapy for subsequent emotional problems. The authors suggest that psychiatric and medical professionals should be encouraged to address this hidden victimization by asking their male clients if sexual assault has occurred in their past and, if so, to provide or refer them to appropriate treatment.

It is encouraging that this article, based on research from 1984 to 1998, hit the psychological mainstream with its publication in the Psychiatric Times. It's a comprehensive and well-balanced article. Perhaps it is more suited for counselors and hobbyists in psychology rather than for a broader lay audience. But at least studies like these are finally emerging from the halls of academia and makiing it onto the radar screen of the helping professions. Maybe 50% or more of the guys do feel "lucky". But at least one in five don't. One in four women are victims of childhood sexual abuse. We don't ignore them because of cultural stereotypes and because 74% of the women aren't. Pherhaps we should be offering help to, rather than jokes about, the one in five victims of unwanted ssexual coercion who suffer moderate to severe negative effects.

The article is available on-line at Psychiatric Times.

The article contains the following references

Anderson PB, Struckman-Johnson C (1998), Sexually Aggressive Women: Current Perspectives and Controversies, Anderson PB, Struckman-Johnson C, eds. New York: Guilford.

Fiebert MS, Tucci LM (1998), Sexual coercion: men victimized by women. Journal of Men's Studies 6(2):127-133.

Isely PJ, Gehrenbeck-Shim D (1997), Sexual assault of men in the community. Journal of Community Psychology 25(2):159-166.

King M, Woollett E (1997), Sexual-assaulted males: 115 men consulting a counseling service. Arch Sex Behav 26(6):579-588.

Larimer ME, Lydum AR, Anderson BK, Turner AP (1999), Male and female recipients of unwanted sexual contact in a college students sample: prevalence rates, alcohol use, and depression symptoms. Sex Roles 40(3-4):295-308.

Lottes IL (1991), The relationship between nontraditional gender roles and sexual coercion. Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality 4(4)89-109.

Myers MF (1989), Men sexually assaulted as adults and sexually abused as boys. Arch Sex Behav 18(3):203-215.

O'Sullivan LF, Byers ES, Finkelman L (1998), A comparison of male and female college students' experiences of sexual coercion. Psychology of Women Quarterly 22:177-195.

Pino NW, Meier RF (1999), Gender differences in rape reporting. Sex Roles 40(11-12):970-990.

Sarrel PM, Masters WH (1982), Sexual molestation of men by women. Arch Sex Behav 11(2):117-131.

Scarce M (1997), Male on Male Rape: The Hidden Toll of Stigma and Shame. New York: Plenum Press.

Sorenson SB, Siegel JM (1992), Gender, ethnicity, and sexual assault: findings from a Los Angeles study. Journal of Social Issues 48(1):93-104.

Struckman-Johnson CJ (1991), Male victims of acquaintance rape. In: Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden Crime, Parrot AL, Bechhofer L, eds. New York: Wiley, pp192-214.

Struckman-Johnson CJ (1988), Forced sex on dates: it happens to men, too. Journal of Sex Research 24:234-240.

Struckman-Johnson C, Struckman-Johnson D (2000), Sexual coercion rates in seven Midwestern prison facilities for men. Prison Journal 80:379-390.

Struckman-Johnson D, Struckman-Johnson C (1996), College men's reactions to hypothetical forceful sexual advances from women. In: Sexual Coercion in Dating Relationships, Byers ES, O'Sullivan LF, eds. New York: Haworth Press, pp93-105.

Struckman-Johnson C, Struckman-Johnson D (1994), Men pressured and forced into sexual experience. Arch Sex Behav 23(1):93-114.

Zweig JM, Barber BL, Eccles JS (1997), Sexual coercion and well-being in young adulthood: comparisons by gender and college status. Journal of Interpersonal Violence 12(2)291-308.

link at: http://www.dateviolence.org/batrsexcoer.htm

[Redhead488]

90. First of all, this "study" says nothing about them being

"Mentally damaged."

Secondly, I question ANY study that says "16% of a sample of 268 men at a small Midwestern university reported that they had been forced to have sexual intercourse on a date."

There is NO way ANY woman could force me, or any man I know, to have sexual intercourse. See, it just doesn't WORK that way!

[slinkerwink]

92. here you go...another study

Prevalence: Studies - Review to July 1996
Contents


Approximately one in six boys is sexually abused before age 16.
Why only to 1996? That's when I conducted a comprehensive review for my masters thesis, and since then I've been much less focused on rates of sexual abuse among males than on how all kinds of abuse can affect men and women. This section will still be useful to people who want to understand how different research methods yield different prevalence statistics. (Full citations for all articles referenced in this section can be found in the following section, "Lasting Effects.")


The following review is grouped into three sections, according to the sample studied:

Male college students.
Men from an identified community.
Men receiving mental health services.

As noted above, please keep in mind: All of the rates below are likely to be underestimates of the actual prevalence of the sexual abuse of boys in our society. This is so because:

There is evidence emerging that as many as one in three incidents of child sexual abuse are not remembered by adults who experienced them, and that the younger the child was at the time of the abuse, and the closer the relationship to the abuser, the more likely one is not to remember. Please see the section on Linda Williams' research on my Web page, Recovered Memories of Sexual Abuse: Scientific Research & Scholarly Resources.
1. Studies of male college students have found prevalence rates from 4.8% to 28%. At the lower extreme of 4.8% is a study by Fritz, Stoll and Wagner (1981) in which 412 students responded to a self-report questionnaire that required them to label their experiences as "abusive"--a method guaranteed to cause under-reporting (see discussion in section above). Risin and Koss (1987) obtained a rate of 7.3% in a national sample of 2,972 male college students. They used eight self-report behavioral descriptions about sexual behaviors before age 14. As pure behavioral descriptions, none of the items included the word "abuse." Finkelhor (1979) used a similar list of behavioral self-report items in a study of 266 college students and found an 8.3% prevalence rate; he included non-contact experiences and used specific age criteria (if under 14 there had to be a 5 year age difference with the perpetrator, if 14-15, a 10 year difference).

Higher prevalence rates of 20% and 24% came from Fromuth and Burkhart's (1987) study of students in two separate schools. They compared the effect of different definitions of sexual abuse on prevalence rates. However, their questionnaire utilized a gate question. The highest rates of 20% and 24% came from the most inclusive definition: the same as Finkelhor's 1979 study (including non-contact and age differential criteria), but with the addition that sexual contact between peers involving force or threat was categorized as abuse.

Research on college students also has been conducted by David Lisak and his colleagues, including myself (Lisak & Luster, 1994; Lisak, Hopper, & Song, 1996). The college samples in these studies were not typical, but consisted of men who commuted to an urban university, were an average of 25 years old, and from socioeconomic background more typical of the surrounding community than many college student populations used in this research. This work yielded prevalence rates of:

Approximately 17% for child sexual abuse of males involving physical contact.
Over 25% when non-contact forms of abuse were included.
Non-contact experiences (e.g., a relative exposing her or his genitals to a child) were investigated because such acts are sexually exploitive and can have negative long-term psychological and interpersonal effects. However, this definition also includes experiences, like a single "flashing" episode involving a stranger, that many would argue are not abusive because the subject suffered no significant or lasting harm, if any at all. As clarified below, Lisak and his colleagues (1994, 1996) deliberately chose to weight their definition of sexual abuse in terms of the power differential accompanying significant age differences and the older person's presumed deliberate sexual use and exploitation of the younger subject. So long as significant differences in age and power existed, Lisak and his colleagues defined incidents as abusive, regardless of subjects' emotional appraisal or lasting effects (the latter were not measured).

Lisak and his colleagues (1994, 1996) used an anonymous questionnaire which has 17 behavioral descriptions of possible experiences and an 18th item for "other" experiences subjects describe. If subjects endorsed an item, they were then directed to provide further information about the experience, which was used to categorize the experience as abusive or not. If the subject was age 13 or younger when the incident occurred and the other person was at least 5 years older, the incident was classified as sexually abusive. If the subject was age 13 or younger when the incident occurred and the other person was less than 5 years older, two criteria had to be met for the incident to be classified as abusive: the subject reported feeling "negative" about it and reported that some degree of coercion was used by the other person. Similar principles apply to incidents occurring when the subject was age 14-15: the incident was classified as abusive if the other person was at least 10 years older; if the other person was less than 10 years older, the abuse classification was assigned only if the subject reported feeling negative about it and reported some level of coercion by the other person.

Though the definitional criteria in Lisak and his colleagues' studies are complex, they address two important issues.

The reality of the power differential which characterizes relationships between adults and children, and between young children and adolescents, because whether or not a sexual experience is abusive can depend on this dynamic.
The fact that whether or not a sexual experience is abusive can also depend on one's subjective appraisal and emotional response to the incident.
Lisak and his colleagues argue that the criteria they employed to assess sexual abuse are clear and relatively conservative in their treatment of the issues of power and subjects' responses.

A prevalence rate similar to the Lisak et al. studies was found in another study of college males. Collings (1995) used an anonymous questionnaire and defined sexual abuse as "unwanted" sexual experiences taking place before the age of 18. The term "unwanted" is likely to bias rates downward, as noted above, but the inclusion of subjects aged 16 and 17 is likely to increase the found prevalence rate. Not surprisingly, Collings found that 29% of the 284 male respondents had been sexually abused, with 20% reporting non-contact abuse and 6% reporting abuse experiences involving physical contact.

2. Studies with community samples have ranged in their prevalence rates from 2.8% to 16%. Again, methodology has been crucial. Kercher and McShane (1984) mailed a single self-report question including the word "abuse" to a random sample of Texas drivers. They found a prevalence rate of 3%. Given the wording of their single question, this rate is not surprising.

Two random-sample telephone interview studies by Murphy (1987, 1989, cited in Urquiza & Keating, 1990) also demonstrate the profound effects of single questions including the word "abuse" rather than instruments with multiple behavioral descriptions. In one of the studies (1987) the former method was employed, and it produced a rate of 2.8% with a sample of 357; in the other study (1989) the latter method yielded a prevalence rate of 11% with a sample of 777.

Bagley, Wood and Young (1994) conducted a community study of men aged 18 to 27 in the Canadian city of Calgary. They first contacted subjects by phone, then administered anonymous questionnaires in their homes via programs on portable computers. Their questionnaire asked about "unwanted" experiences before the age of 17. This wording is likely to result in under-reporting because people who have been sexually abused, but especially males, are sometimes convinced that they wanted and were responsible for the sexual contact. Bagley and his colleagues found a prevalence rate of 15.5%, and that 6.9% of their subjects had experienced multiple episodes of sexual abuse. Interestingly, this rate for multiple episodes was identical to that found for women in a previous study that employed the same methodology, despite the fact that the prevalence rate for any unwanted sexual experiences in that study was 32%, or double that found for males (Bagley, 1991).

The highest community-sample prevalence rate of 16% was found in a random telephone survey of 2,626 men, known as the "L.A. Times survey" (Finkelhor, 1990). However, these findings are very difficult to interpret, since the wording of the questions would be expected to produce contradictory effects: each question used the word "abuse," but ended with the phrase, "or anything like that?"

In contrast to studies with women, published studies using face-to-face interviews with men have yielded very low prevalence rates, perhaps due to subjects' adherence to stereotypes about males not being victims (Urquiza & Keating, 1990). Finkelhor's (1984) face-to-face interview with Boston-area fathers yielded a rate of 6%. Siegel and colleagues (1987), using gate-question interviews with 1,480 Los Angeles-area men, found a prevalence rate of 3.8%. Baker and Duncan (1985) used a single question that described various sexual acts and found the highest face-to-face prevalence rate of 8% in their random sample of 970 men in Great Britain.

3. Studies with clinical samples have obtained prevalence rates from 3% to 23%. The lowest rate was reported from a study that used psychological records of 954 male and female patients of a large regional medical center (Belkin, Greene, Rodrique, & Boggs, 1994). In a chart review of emergency room records of a Buffalo, New York hospital, Ellerstein and Canavan (1980) found an 11% prevalence rate. DeJong and colleagues (DeJong, Emmett, & Hervada, 1982) reviewed several clinical studies and found rates from 11% to 17%, and in their own hospital population found a rate of just under 14% (1982). Metcalfe and his associates (1990) found a prevalence of 23% in their survey of 100 male psychiatric inpatients.

However, it is important to note here that assessment for sexual abuse histories in hospitals has traditionally been extremely poor, and remains so in many settings. Thus these rates, based on reviews of records, are likely to be vast underestimates. For example, Briere and Zaidi (1989) reviewed intake reports on women presenting to an urban psychiatric emergency room. They randomly reviewed 50 charts before and 50 after the intake staff were instructed to question clients about previous sexual victimization. The first 50 charts had recorded rates of 6%, and the second set, 70%.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Possible Lasting Effects - Basic Information & Outline
Contents


This section provides some basic information on the complexity of this issue, then reviews research on long-term effects of childhood sexual abuse in men's lives. At the end of this section, several articles and books are listed along with the symptoms and other effects. The complete citations for these articles and books, which you can get from libraries and bookstores, are in the next section of this page (Recommended Books and Articles).

Of course the sexual abuse of male children can lead to a variety of problems and suffering. But it's not that simple. My aim in this section is to provide some basic information that, while conveying the possible effects of the sexual abuse of males, helps people appreciate the complexity of this issue and avoid unnecessarily pessimistic beliefs.
Therefore, I will start with four basic points:

Being sexually abused is one of many painful and potentially damaging experiences that a human being may suffer in childhood.

Whether and to what extent child abuse and neglect (or other painful experiences) have negative effects depends on a variety of factors - related to the abuse itself, but also to relationships, in which the abuse and the child's responses occur.

Child abuse, in itself, does not "doom" people to lives of horrible suffering.

If a person has been sexually abused and experiences some of the problems or symptoms listed below, the abuse is not necessarily the primary (let alone only) reason for such suffering.




Child Abuse and the Human Condition
It is important to consider these issues in relation to what some people refer to as "the human condition." By this I mean:


All human beings suffer painful experiences, and some of these occur in childhood.

All caregivers of children are sometimes unable to protect them from painful experiences.

We all need love and support to deal with the effects of painful experiences.

Everyone must find ways to cope with the emotions generated by painful experiences - whether or not we get love and support from others.

Many coping or self-regulation strategies work in some ways, but also limit people in other ways. For example:

Ignoring painful feelings may reduce one's conscious experience of them. But it also prevents one from learning how to manage them in smaller doses, let alone larger ones - which makes one vulnerable to alternating between feeling little or no emotions and being overwhelmed and unable to cope with them.

Avoiding getting close to people and trying to hide all of one's pain and vulnerabilities may creating a sense of safety. But this approach to relationships leads to a great deal of loneliness, prevents experiences and learning about developing true intimacy and trust, and makes one vulnerable to desperately and naively putting trust in the wrong people and being betrayed again.

At the extreme, getting really drunk can block out painful memories and feelings, including the feeling of being disconnected from others - but cause lots of other problems and disconnections from people.

Some people suffer more painful experiences than others, and abuse is one of many possible causes of extreme emotional pain (others include life-threatening illness, death of a loved one, physical disfigurement, etc.).

Some people get more love and support from their families and friends than others, and families in which abuse occurs tend to provide less of the love and support needed to recover from abuse. But families in which abuse does not happen can also experience significant problems, and can make it hard for family members to deal with the inevitable painful experiences in life.

Finally, because everyone needs caring relationships and love, emotional neglect can be more devastating than abuse, particularly in the earliest years of life.

[Redhead488]

106. BTW, who were the perpetrators in this study?

Men or Women?

[slinkerwink]

162. women.

[slinkerwink]

94. it's easy for a woman to force a man to have sex

through blackmail, threats of humiliation, death, or taking advantage of the guy when he's intoxicated or unable to give consent.

[Catholic Sensation]

96. don't you know slink, we men can't be forced to have sex, we're always

willing, and consent is implied by the fact we're breathing.
</sarcasm>

[slinkerwink]

100. and that's why sexual abuses of young men go underreported

because they're supposed to want and to have sex at that age, but in reality, they suffer from it and from public shame if they file a report with the police. Then accusations of homosexuality are brought up if they say, "I didn't want to have sex with her" just like that poster did to you when you offered your opinion.

[Catholic Sensation]

159. you just summarized what's wrong with this country when it comes to

adolescant males having sex very well, though you were specifically talking about abuse. And it's totally fucked up for both genders. If a girl has sex with nobody, she's a prude and a bitch. If she has sex, she's easy and a slut. There's absolutely no winners in this bullshit, just losers.

And as far as him thinking I might be gay for not wanting to bang a woman nine years older than me, I couldn't care less if anyone thinks I'm a homosexual.

[Redhead488]

98. LMAO

If a guy is THAT intoxicated, he ain't having sex, Baby.

[slinkerwink]

103. men can still have sex when they're intoxicated...they can't give consent

and are taken advantage of wrongly.

[Redhead488]

107. Depends on the level of intoxication

doesn't it. At a certain level, the old hydraulics just won't work. They are soooo taken advantage of.

[HallowsEve]

157. Ummmm...yeah

there is also the womanly art of seduction (men have their own version not near as efficient!)

[Catholic Sensation]

160. what are you trying to get at?

[HallowsEve]

167. I just thought

the examples used of how women get men to sleep with them seemed all to have pretty negative implications. I just wanted to add that seduction is the oldest way of accomplishing it. Now, is it good, bad or ugly?? I dunno....

[chicaloca]

95. Care to clarify that?

"Rape, as women so often shout...."

I have a very sinister idea of what you're suggesting here, but I'm going to let you explain it before I go any further.

[Redhead488]

109. Women shout, and correctly I might add,

that rape is not a crime about sex, it is about violence. Do you disagree?

[chicaloca]

113. You could have said women "say"

Or you could simply have said rape is about power, not sex, without having to attribute it to women, as I would hope it's something men are concerned about as well. I'm sure you've heard women accused of "shouting" rape (i.e. accused of lying about it) and it seemed like you were trying to hint something along those lines.

And having had firsthand experience, I think rape is about power and sex in many cases, but that's a discussion for another time.

[Redhead488]

117. Thanks for your advice on how I could have said it

However, it's most often made, most vociferously, by women.

[chicaloca]

123. Well then, it was just a misunderstanding.

Let's leave it at that.

[JVS]

19. C

[eyesroll]

23. I'd be mad at the teacher, not at the kid

It doesn't matter that 14-year-old boys are walking hormones. She's in a position of responsibility, and she's not supposed to sleep with her students, period.

I taught high school for one year out of college; I started when I was 21. A couple of my students were 19; many more were 18. On the outside, I legally could have gotten into a relationship with these adults, and no one would have said anything -- it's a small age difference. But as a teacher, there were boundaries.

And while sexual contact with someone who is past puberty, I think, is different from child molestation (and it's not considered pedophelia, psychologically -- there's a different term for seeking out post-pubescent teenagers), it's still wrong for an adult, especially one in a position of authority, to do. In most states, it's statuatory rape; many states also have provisions against teacher-student conduct, even if both parties are adults. (I also believe the state university system prohibits certain staff from fraternizing with students, but that's not a criminal offense.) And this should be true regardless of the gender(s) of the participants.

I think reasonable people can disagree as to whether current age-of-consent laws are too strict or too lenient. Wisconsin's age of consent is 18 (although same-age couples generally aren't cited), and I consented well before 18 (but not to my teacher, and not to someone years older).

And if I had kids, I wouldn't reasonably expect them to stay abstinent until marriage, or even adulthood, either. But this isn't even about that. It's a teacher screwing a student, and a relatively young one at that. You just don't do that.

[KinkyDem]

33. Son, we need to ahve a talk

about when to keep your mouth shut.

Do I think that boy is scarred for life, hell no. He'll be more scarred from the media coverage and being told that what he did was wrong and about how he was a victom. Does this push the bounderies of consentual sex, sure. Do I think what that young woman did was a crime, well, obviusly, but I'm not willing to simply call her a monster and let her be stoned in the streets.

[Catholic Sensation]

35. i'd say option c

and i'd have the bitch arrested for doing that to my kid. If she were a 65 year old Catholic priest would anyone even think about excusing the actions then?

[taxidriver]

68. it would be interesting to see the effects of the same thing on a girl

honestly, i dont see a 14 year old guy growing up and having pyschological problems because of something like this.

[slinkerwink]

74. there are plenty of 14 year old guys that have pyschological problems

from being raped by an adult or being sexually molested by an adult.

[Susang]

119. Just ask the boy that Mary Kay Latourno raped

Funny how nobody seems to want to mention that case. Which is so similar to this one.

[Redhead488]

120. He wants to marry her now

[Susang]

134. No, I don't think so

He may have wanted to at one time, when he was younger. But obviously not now, as he and his family sued now claim he was a victim and even sued the school for damaged (they did not win).

from the Seattle Post:

Vili Fualaau was once the young boy King County jurors saw yesterday in a photograph, a regular kid posing on the school playground with the rest of Mrs. Letourneau's sixth-grade class.

Now he's an 18-year-old father of two. He's a severely depressed high school dropout, his attorney told jurors, and "everywhere he goes, he is known as the kid who slept with his teacher."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/63408_mary22.shtml

[Redhead488]

136. Really? Try reading the article you posted.

"He told jurors Fualaau still wants to marry the now-divorced woman and has her photograph tucked in his wallet."

[Susang]

143. Thanks obvious man

I did read it, but perhaps you should try again. The article is two years old. I posted it as a link to the lawsuit I referenced in my post.

Many thanks for the slam to my reading skills. Its refreshing to see someone who can debate in such a civil manner.

[Commendatori]

71. Ugh. Do I be completely honest with him?

Because if so, I'd say "Look, in your shoes at that age I've had done her too, but this is the day and age where kicking a French Poodle by accident gets you on the Drudge Report, so if you're going to boink your teachers, be more f*cking (no pun intended) discreet next time."

When I was 17, my math teacher was 26, and I slept with her for months. Back then I looked like I had real MLB prospects, so she might well have been with me for the payday, but back then I didn't care - she was hot, and I was horny enough to pierce concrete.

It would be nice if I could look and act disappointed with my son under such circumstances, but I'm not a good liar and could never pull it off.

[taxidriver]

80. prepare for flamage, you sick teacher banger.

<<but it wont come from me. you're the man>>

[Commendatori]

88. LOL, thanks for the warning

[Misunderestimator]

215. Too bad you just changed how I see you BOD

I didn't realize you could be that flippant about such a dire subject. :shrug:

[Susang]

116. I just want to register my utter amazement at this thread

So let me get this straight....

An immature underage student of 14 has sexual intercourse with his married (yes, I read the article) 23 year old teacher at her initiation, and many here think this is natural and something to be proud of and not sexual abuse?

It is okay that the boy had sex with an adult because he is a young male and is hardwired that way? Seriously, what fucking website am I on here? :scared:

If a person in power, as this teacher was, uses that power to convince a child to have sex with her, they are a sexual predator. Notice that she wasn't cheating on her husband with a legal adult male. Why do you think that is? And why hasn't anyone addressed the fact that, as a very attractive woman (yes, I saw her picture), she could have easily done so. She was doing far more than just getting laid here. According to the article she felt they had a relationship.

Now, before you flame me with accusations of repression and puritanism, I am not saying that the 14 year old boy doesn't have sexual feelings or urges. Just that the teacher is completely wrong and liable in this instance and celebrating her actions is completely fucked up.

[Redhead488]

118. Whoa

NO one is celebrating HER actions...I think she needs to get serious mental help.

[Catholic Sensation]

122. you're not celebrating her actions, but you are excusing them

[Redhead488]

125. By saying she needs mental help?

No, I'm not. She needs help, not jail time.

[Catholic Sensation]

126. no by saying what she did "wasn't that bad" and that her actions

can be excused because the boy is fourteen with an insatiable sex drive.

[Redhead488]

129. Where did I say what she did

"wasn't that bad?" I said she needs mental help, not jail.

[Catholic Sensation]

130. saying what she did wasn't rape

that she doesn't deserve to go to jail
because at fourteen we males are exceedingly horny that her actions aren't as bad

those all imply that you don't think she did something criminal, and criminal is the only adjective that describes what she did completely.

[Redhead488]

133. She committed STATUTORY rape

which I view differently than forced rape. She is sick. Needs mental help, not jail. There, I'm done.

Oh, and the boy loved every fucking second of it.

[Blue-Jay]

128. This has certainly been an entertaining thread.

Don't mind me. Please continue.

[Susang]

138. I'm glad you're entertained

I wish I was. I think too many people here saw a few too many bad eighties movies. Unfortunately, life isn't really like "Class" or "Homework". :eyes:

[Redhead488]

142. Chill, Ma'am

People are blowing this WAY out of proportion. Teachers should not have sex with students. Teachers who do have consensual sex with students need mental help. Teachers who have forced sex with students need jail.

[Susang]

147. You win no points being condescending

And telling people that they are blowing this out of proportion assumes that you have the right or ability to judge what is the correct proportion. Sorry, but that is not your choice to make and it is extremely insulting to suggest that you do, particularly in such a diminishing way.

So I guess my answer is no, I have no plans to "chill".

[Blue-Jay]

151. I was being sarcastic about being entertained, Sue.

I forgot the little rollie-eyes guy.

[Susang]

154. I know, you big goof

The whole knowing sarcasm thing is hard to convey online, isn't it?
:-) We need more icons!

[dr.strangelove]

127. Late to this party but COME ON!!!

As a father, I would be very upset that my young child, and 14 is very much still a child, had sex with an adult. But my anger would be directed at her, not him. She is a disgusting human being. She not only cheated on her spouse, but she did it with a child. I have no place in my heart for pedophiles. If this is true, and she had sex with this child, I hope and pray she is punished to the full extent of the law.

As for the son, which is what this post seemed to center on, I would neither be angry or happy. I would be sad. I would understand why he did it. At that age, you are so filled with awe for seaual discovery. At 14 I was still just touching girls butts and breasts, so I don't know how I would have responded to sex, but it was certainly something I would have done if given the chance.

I would be sad that my son was put in the situation, and I would try to talk to him about why sex is better with someone on the same level as you.

[chicaloca]

141. I'd also be interested in how people here would react....

If the teacher weren't what is apparently considered "hot". I think that's the real reason many here are excusing an obvious crime. What if a 14-year-old boy were coerced into having sex with an overweight, short-haired brunette teacher who has severe acne? Would people here then consider it a crime?

[Catholic Sensation]

144. or if the teacher were a guy

they'd be calling for his head on a silver platter, because 14 year olds can only have sex with hot 23 year old female teachers without the adult being completely wrong.

[chicaloca]

161. Exactly.

Abusing power is abusing power, regardless of who does it.

Also, if we give leeway to this teacher for whatever bullshit reason people here are giving, where do we draw the line in excusing criminals? If they just got fired and went out and raped someone because they wanted to feel powerful, do we give them some leeway? If they just got dumped, is it okay? Where does it end?

[HallowsEve]

163. What does coerced mean again???

Because it seems like the wrong word. Coerce is what MEN do to WOMEN who are recalcitrant. MEn are rarely...14 y.o. boys?? BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA! recalcitrant??!!! COERCED???!!! BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!

[slinkerwink]

173. what the fuck?

:wtf:

[Susang]

174. You took the words right out of my mouth

:nuke:

[HallowsEve]

180. I was just expressing

how I felt about the idea of a 14 y.o. boy being coerced. I am sorry i let my emotions out...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

145. More "boys will be boys" crap

Perhaps if we weren't gearing young men to follow their impulses, they wouldn't and we wouldn't be dealing with the societal ills of kids that follow their impulse, be they boys or girls, with all the attendant issues that follow.

Many people on this thread justify the kid's reaction as a fantasy come true. Fair enough. But I think teaching an adolescent that some fantasies are REALLY meant to be only fantasies would be the appropriate response.

What if he had impregnated the teacher? Was he prepared for that outcome?

[Catholic Sensation]

146. I agree wholeheartedly

but then again for saying this I might be gay according to one of the posters :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

152. Those posters use other societies to justify their responses

I prefer the "all things being equal" comparison in that regard. In some societies women are set up to marry their cousins and it would be unheard of for a young woman to be introduced to sex by anyone but her father...those same societies have all sorts of practices that we would consider barbaric or backwards.

The justifications used on the young man's part on this thread are also a bit contradictory.

If HE is simply fulfilling a young man's fantasy and that is not wrong, how can the teacher be criminal or predatory? Is she not a HERO if he is "SCORING"?

The greater issue which I think no one has addressed...is if the young man fucks her, he is just a child...but if he KILLS her, he can be tried as an adult in some states.

America really needs to get it's shit together on definitions of children and adults...if he is TOO young to distinguish sex from love or to distinguish fantasy from reality, he is too young to be tried as an adult.

However, most of the people posting on this thread are adults...it's no wonder KIDS are getting such contradictory communications on what is acceptable and what isn't.

[HallowsEve]

164. ummm....

fucking and KILLING??? Well, only one is against the law, really....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

171. Wrong...not all fucking is legal..not all killing is illegal

Takes a bit of complex thinking beyond the binary to debate this point.

[HallowsEve]

186. Ummm, ohhhh...riiiiiiiight

"The greater issue which I think no one has addressed...is if the young man fucks her, he is just a child...but if he KILLS her, he can be tried as an adult in some states."

Sure seems to me you were talking about a 14y.o. boy f-ing her(the teacher, i presume?) which is not illegal for him to do and KILLING her, which is. Looking at your message, I didn't realize you meant such BROAD concepts as your mildly insulting reply to me suggested. Perhaps my reading comprehension lacks.

[Susang]

150. Excellent post as usual

Its amazing that the same excuses (men have urges, biological needs, can't control themselves, etc.) were used when my friend was involved in a statutory rape case back in 1981. Apparently, because she was so well developed ("and ready for sex" as another poster put it, but in reference to boys), he didn't feel he was to blame for carrying out a 6 month sexual relationship with her. He was her drama teacher.

[HallowsEve]

165. This thread BEGAN...

regarding what would you say to your son if...That is where all the lightness comes from. The Boy is not at fault in any way unless HE thinks so. The teacher was CRAZY to pull that in this society, but not so much for moral reasons as for career/reputation/legal repurcussions.

[Susang]

170. So am I to assume from your post

That you have no problem with 23 year old teachers sleeping with their 14 year old students?

"not so much for moral reasons as for career/reputation/legal repurcussions."

Or perhaps you meant something else by this statement and I misunderstood you.

[HallowsEve]

181. eh.

I have bigger things to concern my self with morally; I am not convinced this is a moral or gender issue. It seems like a legal/career/reputation issue to me.

[Susang]

188. What an in depth response to my question

You may think that a dismissive "eh" and an air of superiority will more than make up for the fact that you actually present no actual defense of your previous statements.

Though I'm sure you felt that you cleverly avoided having to answer my direct question by saying that you have "bigger things" to concern yourself with, so I feel compelled to ask it again. Are you okay with 23 year old teachers having sex with their 14 year old students?

[HallowsEve]

191. hmmmmm....ummmmmm....errrrrrrrrrrrrr

no.


teachers and students ought not copulate...it gets too complicated.

14 yr olds and 23 yr olds?? COULD be VERY complicated. Could be alright. I would say proceed with GREAT caution and be aware of the implications to each party.

you're mean....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Have a great friday! Have a laugh!

[Susang]

198. Why is it that people call you "mean"

Whenever you call them on their lame ass bullshit?

[HallowsEve]

202. Wow...

I was joking...text...emoticons...blahblahblah. I am glad that was the only part of my message you misunderstood!

[chicaloca]

195. Well, isn't it nice

that you can easily walk away from something like this because it isn't a big "concern" of yours. Some of us aren't lucky enough to say that rape and molestation have never touched our lives. So don't be surprised if people get angry at your blase attitude.

[HallowsEve]

199. I have a daughter...

and rape and molestation are certainly concerns of mine. I appreciate you bringing this up, because I am not sure this qualifies. I know about statutory rape and forceful rape. Letter of the law, I have NO interest in, sorry. Morals and making choices?? Now we are talkin! I do not think there was a moral failure here.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

175. Lightness is one thing...but many attitudes on this thread

justify the kid when in fact he IS a minor and needs to be taught SOME values....sex is wonderful, so is youth...but decisions are made in youth that carry into adult life and can have consequences.

[HallowsEve]

184. My goodness...

that just summed it all up for me. I agree completely. This is not an issue if the child is raised to understand the repurcussions. Beyond that, when these things happen, coping skills should be taught because one cannot avoid everything.

Too bad moms and dads in this SOCIETY (*ahem*)have to work 60-70 hours a week to keep up, perhaps our children may make better decisions than they do. We cannot rely on others to not SEDUCE our children into making bad choices; nor can we rely on government to lock up or microchip every dastardly person out there.. Barbara Ehrenreich(sp) does not address this in Nickel and Dimed, but it is incredibly relevant.

[HuckleB]

178. Indeed.

Good post.

[LWolf]

168. As this boy's MOTHER, I would be saying,

"Son, don't ever let anyone use you or take advantage of you. There are all kinds of relationships, but sexual relationships with someone who has authority over you is abuse. Adults who have sex with kids are predators. Don't allow yourself to become their prey. And don't have sex until you are ready to use birth control, protect yourself against STDs, and handle the fallout in your relationships. If you're ready for sex, you're ready for everything that goes with it."

And then I would nail that teacher to the wall with every legal means at my disposal. You lay a finger on one of my sons, and I'm no longer looking to be diplomatic.

As a teacher, I am appalled at the suggestions that perhaps it's ok, and we're all too repressed. Every day that I arrive in my classroom, I am aware of exactly what parents have done; they have entrusted me with the care of their children for the day. It's not only my job to teach them. It's my job to keep them safe. To provide them with a safe, positive environment to grow and develop intellectually, academically, emotionally, and socially. Having sex with a student is a profane violation of that trust, as well as that student. For every Debra Beasley Lafave, there are thousands upon thousands of responsible, caring teachers dealing with the loss of parental trust.

No mercy.

[slinkerwink]

172. exactly!

[Susang]

177. Rock on LWolf

I'm with you on that one. There are too many excellent teachers to be smeared with the stain of these few.

[HuckleB]

179. As his father, I'd repeat your wonderful words.

Thanks for offering such a concise, real-world post. I wish you all the best.

[HuckleB]

176. I'm very disheartened to see this at DU.

I would hope that folks here had gotten beyond this type of crap, this societal nonsense that keeps so many boys of all ages from reporting abuse. How many kids and young men who developed major depression, drug and alcohol habits and on and on, after being abused and not reporting it -- largely because of the way we treat boys in this country, must I work with in my life? I dunno. But this type of crap only helps to keep those sad cases flowing my way.

Believe me, I wish I was out of business.

This is unbelievable.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

182. An intellectual response by a mental health professional

will get you lynched on this thread...I suspect a few posters need your services...

[taxidriver]

183. i want to say something, having just seen her pictures...

...she can 'rape' me anytime. do the people calling this rape understand the difference between male and female genitals? a woman cannot forcibly harden a guy's wang and force herself upon him. a guy can do that kind of thing to a girl. yes, she did take advantage of him, but RAPE?? geez. it wasnt rape. Rape is unwanted, forced, sexual intercourse.

you may flame me at will.

[Misunderestimator]

187. OMFG... I have stayed out of this thread, but this just takes the cake

What planet are you from? Really? WOMEN CAN RAPE MEN... and if you can get over your misogynistic crap for a second, you can understand how abusing your power over a child (male or female) is rape.

[taxidriver]

189. it wasnt mysogynistic. i was just stating that i'm pretty sure

it wasnt what i think of as rape (forced rape, like the shows on lifetime channel talk about) however, I suppose it could be counted as statutory rape because of their ages.

[Misunderestimator]

190. Yes, exactly why we have statutory rape, and in this case, frankly...

with the kid being only 14 and the adult KNOWING the child's age, there's no question that it is statutory rape.

[slinkerwink]

192. women can forcibly rape men

under threats of blackmail, death, or humiliation. The fact that men's organs respond to sexual stimuli does NOT mean that they mentally are responding to such stimuli. For example, women who are raped are sometimes forced to have an orgasm. That doesn't mean that it wasn't rape for them. RAPE is RAPE, no matter what the gender is.

[Catholic Sensation]

209. well what you think of as rape is worth about as much as a used condom

because the law specifically says this is statuatory rape, which if you would look at the word in bold, you'll notice has the letters "r" "a" "p" and "e" arranged to spell "rape" at then end of the crime. Seeing as how it has "rape" in its name, IT'S FUCKING RAPE.

Why don't some of you understand this?

[HuckleB]

194. Newsflash.

Just because the body can become aroused in such a situation, doesn't mean its not rape. Our bodies have all types of responses. Some women have a physical response when being raped, but that doesn't mean it's not rape.

Please take the time to learn about rape and abuse and its effects before making such comments.

Thank you.

[chicaloca]

200. You really haven't been keeping on top of the Iraqi

prisoner abuse scandal, have you? The same damn thing happened to those men as the two posters before me have just described.

[MadHound]

196. Folks, it wasn't that long ago in our nation's history,

And it is still the law in some states(Arkansas, I believe, for one) that the legal ages for marriage were consideribly lower than they are now. In fact there are still laws in some states stating sixteen as the legal age for marriage, no matter what, with twelve the legal age with parental consent. It was common for a man of twenty to be married to a fourteen year old. And it wasn't terribly uncommon to have a woman of twenty(or older) married to a fourteen year old(especially out in the western states, where women of any age were rare during the greater part of the nineteenth century).

This was the norm, and it wasn't considered harmful. And this is still considered the norm in various countries in the world. In fact, if you look into world history throughout the ages, sex and marriage at an age that we consider unconscienably young was practiced, accepted, and celebrated. It is only relatively recently that such relationships became taboo in Western culture. Part of this is due to modern Western prudity, part of this is due to the modern phenomenon of an extended childhood that has become prevalent.

But the fact is, whether you like it or not, but there has always been sex between "adults" and "minors", both with and without the sanctity of marriage. Yes, there are certain ages that people have agreed on when there shouldn't be sexual relations, but traditionally these ages have been pretty low, aprox. around twelve years. But anybody above those ages was considered to be of age and appropriate.
In fact, I'm sure if you all went through your family trees, you would find some rather recent ancestors who got married in their early-mid teens. My grandmother(maternal) was married to a man of twenty when she was fifteen. My grandfather(paternal)was married at the age of fourteen, to my grandmother who was also the same age(both these marriages took place in the 1910s). Both couples got along well, had wonderful lifelong marriages, and there was no apparent ill effect from marrying at such a young age.

It isn't that I'm defending what this woman has done, she violated current law, and current societal norms. But I also understand that our current law and societal norms fly in the face of thousand upon thousand of years of not only law and societal norms, but also humananity's sexual nature itself. Perhaps we need to take that into consideration before there is a rush to judgement.

[HuckleB]

201. Nice try.

I figured someone would bring out this old mishmash. "Yeah, since the powerful have always taken advantage of the young throughout human history, why should it change now?" We're still living in a society where some family members think that child abuse, including child sexual abuse, should be "kept within the family/handled within the family." It's not that long ago, that this was the prevailing method of dealing with child abuse, if it was dealt with at all. But I guess we should just go back to that, since we're clearly repressing our "sexual nature" if we don't. Come off it. This hasn't got a damn thing to do with sex. This is about power and abuse, and, if you haven't seen the effects on people of this type of abuse, I'll tell you that it's not something you want to see people go through.

Sorry, this is just another old-wives tale based on a partial reading of history. Thanks, but no thanks.

[MadHound]

206. Yes, there were some instances of abuse involved

But the vast majority of these "underage" marriages were entered into not only willingly, but also eagerly. Face it friend, lifespans were much shorter back in the day. Turn of the century only saw an average lifespan that went into the forties and fifties, with said average lifespans considerably shorter in women due to, in part, the traumas of childbirth. People packed as much life into those years as they could, and marriage in the teens was one way of doing it.

Hell, back in the 19th and early 20th century, something was wrong with you if you weren't married by the time you reached twenty, and in a lot of cases people wondered if you made it to eighteen without marrying. Again, this isn't about power structures or child abuse friend, this was the reality that life was short, brutal, and nasty, and you had better live it while you can, because you're going to die soon enough.

Another contributing factor was the lack of modern medicine. It was considered dangerous, if not downright deadly, for women to be having children after the age of thirty or so. We didn't have the medical technology or knowledge that would allow late in life childbirth. So if you were going to have the average family of four-six kids, you had better start early, while the woman's body was still healthy enough to take the strain. And this didn't just involve 4-6 pregnancies friend, there were usually a couple more, simply because the incidence of child mortality and miscarriages etc. were quite high.

If you don't believe me, go talk to your own grandparents, or great grandparents, or listen to those few oldsters in their ninties. They'll give you the same scoop I am. To them, it wasn't child abuse, or statutory rape, it was the norm, a practice accepted by society. And if you can't find somebody that age to talk to, there are many good sociology books out there documenting the same topics I'm talking about. Or hell, just go back and research YOUR family tree.

[HuckleB]

211. Thanks for continuing the oversimplification of history.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Been there, done that, know the road all too well.

You're out of context, as I already pointed out.

As for your "some" abuses, and attempts to say most of those "marriages" were gone into "willingly." Holy crap, but you haven't read much history, have you?

You really should hit the books before trying to espouse a theory that's based on a false reading of history.

[Susang]

216. So, by your own post

Comparing the society of the past and why they married early to the society today with it's greater lifespans and medical advances would be akin to comparing apples to automobiles or another completely dissimilar object, would it not?

[NightTrain]

197. Where the hell were those teachers when I was in school?!

:evilgrin:

[HuckleB]

203. Two words: Andrew Garver.

Missing Ore. Teen, Coach Found in Tenn.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040624_1984.html

So, dad, what are you going to say to her, if she was your daughter?

[matcom]

204. i was 16 when i made out with my 30 Y.O. English teacher

that is all

[HuckleB]

205. OK. I'm confused.

The continuation thread was locked because it was "inflammatory," but this thread isn't inflammatory?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Now I'm actually quite concerned about what's happening to or at DU.

[Misunderestimator]

208. Was wondering the same thing myself.

:shrug:

[Misinformed01]

213. I wanted to personally tell you

Your responses on this thread and the other one were amazing--you sound like an incredible person.

I do not know what is going on at DU, but I have a feeling that if I say what I think, or if I had responded to Skinner's thread on sexism this week, I would have been banned.

Since I want to stay on DU at least until Kerry wins (at which point, I will only show up on DU to see friends probably) I need to start just ignoring threads now. I hate that--but, there it is.

Stephanie

[HuckleB]

218. Thanks.

I know it's difficult to do that. Believe me. I should have spent more of my morning on other tasks, but I just couldn't let this one go.

I go through periods where I don't show up at all, or just check the LBN, editorials, and GD for news leads to keep me on top of things. I suppose that my recent absences (two months in the Spring while in South America and most of June, while I finally got on the yard and house repairs) have left me even more shocked by threads like these.

Anyway, I do hope that you stick around. Your advocacy is valuable here. And, who knows, maybe a few posters actually think a little bit more after reading your posts. I guess that hope is the only reason I keep posting here.

Best to you.

Salud!
-Kurt

[YellowRubberDuckie]

214. I am sickened by those of you who are defending what this woman did.

A 14 year old child cannot consent to sex with a 23 year old. I wasn't even thinking about sex when I was a freshman in high school, let alone having sex with my teachers. That was wrong, and anyone who will defend pedophilia is sick in their own right.
Duckie

[Skinner]

219. This was fun.

I'm locking.