Marriage sucks

[Paragon]

I wouldn't know, I'm single. But I've always imagined it does...and here comes Laura Kipnis to confirm my suspicions. Check this out: Ouch!

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087897/

Kipnis' answer is that marriage is an insidious social construct, harnessed by capitalism to get us to have kids and work harder to support them. Her quasi-Marxist argument sees desire as inevitably subordinated to economics. And the price of this subordination is immense: Domestic cohabitation is a "gulag"; marriage is the rough equivalent of a credit card with zero percent APR that, upon first misstep, zooms to a punishing 30 percent and compounds daily. You feel you owe something, or you're afraid of being alone, and so you "work" at your relationship, like a prisoner in Siberia ice-picking away at the erotic permafrost.

[kstewart33]

1. Oh, please

She sounds like a sad, very angry woman. As for you, don't knock something until you give it a try. When you find the right man or woman, it's simply great. I married for the first time at 42, and I've never been happier. Married 8 years now and can't imagine ever being without him.

[deutsey]

2. I don't know...

My wife and I like it pretty well. 10 years this October.

We're thinking of renewing our vows next month, with the theme of "The Triumph of Hope Over Experience". :-)

[slackmaster]

3. Yes, and so does divorce

I've done both and presently have no desire to repeat either experience. Most of my marriage was good, very good, and I'm glad I did it. But when things started to go downhill it got very bad and I wa powerless to stop the decline.

[mmm]

4. marriage is great

try it

[rainydaywoman]

10. I agree!

I've been married 10 years, and we are home w/each other all day, every day.

[Paragon]

5. For the curious...

You can read an excerpt from Chapter One of her book here:

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375421890&view=excerpt

[cjbuchanan]

6. Yeah it does suck...

I mean spending time everyday with someone who you care more about then anything in the world and who feels the same way back is awful. It is also horrible to know that no matter what the problem is, there is someone there who will fight for you and comfort you. Oh, and waking up every morning to see the beautiful face of this person next to you, I can't even begin to tell you the hell of it.

Yes, I guess overwhelming happiness is a capitalist trick. When you stop to think about it, homosexuals should stop complaining and start thanking the government for not providing them with the same rights as heterosexuals. I mean the government must be trying to save homosexuals from all this capitalist nonsense.

[rbnyc]

19. LOL. Great post.

I guess my partner and I did have all those things before we got married, but I'm so happy that I did marry him. It has framed our happiness and our devotion to one another in a very meaningful way. And it made it a lot easier for him to negotiate with doctors on my behalf when I was in the hospital.

[blondeatlast]

30. LOL! Well put.

I love my husband, even during football season!

[onehandle]

7. That morbid description could be applied to any relationship...

Mate, Family, Co-worker.

Is it just that easy to sell a book?

[amazona]

8. actually, kids and having to support them caused by sex...not marriage

Odd quote here: "marriage is an insidious social construct, harnessed by capitalism to get us to have kids and work harder to support them."

Anyways I was under the impression that agricultural, tribal societies had more children per family than industrial, capitalist societies but what do I know? I didn't know marriage caused pregnancy, I had always blamed the sex act for that!

[blondeatlast]

31. See how misinformed you are?

Explain MARRIAGE to your kids, not sex.

[slappypan]

9. new frontiers in self-absorption

This woman will probably do quite well with her book, exhorting Americans on to ever-greater levels of narcissism. For many people, marriage has already been replaced by shopping.

[regularguy]

12. Yup.

Plus, the stress of actually choosing a mate is pretty high when you see yourself as God.

[Robb]

11. Easy to write a book against the norm

She's going to have no problem getting on talk shows, speaking engagements etc., because she's taken such a contrarian position. Big deal.

I got an "A" in college for a paper I wrote making a coherent argument that certain bible stories were all operating in favor of homosexuality. I certainly didn't believe it, but I made the argument very well. Wonder if she believes her position (or if she's bright enough to know the difference)....



Probably pays better than her filmmaking ever did, too.

[Paragon]

14. It's "A Polemic"

By definition, it's one-sided. Who knows, maybe her next book will be "For Love: A Polemic".

[Paragon]

13. On Bill & Hillary

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2003/08/13/kipnis/index1.html

She's reasonably sympathetic to Bill and Hillary Clinton on the subject of their highly public marital woes. But she also has a long and sharp memory, and she reminds us that Hillary, while stumping for her New York Senate seat, once asserted that our leaders should "start talking about the importance of marriage."

And, she reminds us, Bill Clinton, with Hillary's support, signed the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which she calls "a custom-built stockade fence to protect matrimony against infiltration by nefarious homosexual elements and safeguard the more panicky states from having to recognize another state's gay marriages, should any state actually grant the privilege, which none had." (She also devotes a few pages to the notion that as messed-up an institution as marriage is, the fact that gay men and lesbians want in only proves how ingrained it is in us that marriage is both necessary and good.)...

Clearly if there were a Starr Report on every American marriage, the institution would instantly crumble, never to recover. And what, then, of the republic? Citizens obviously have a duty to lie about their sex lives, as Clinton himself knew -- and tried valiantly to do."

[deutsey]

16. Mr. Starr, please start your investigation into my sex life anytime

You'll be pretty damn bored prior to my getting married (with very few exceptions). Because my wife and I have been faithful to each other, you might be bored by what's happened since we got married, too...but I can guarantee you that my wife and I have not been bored at all. :evilgrin:

[Cheswick2.0]

17. maybe I am missing your point here

but is the Clinton marriage her business? I don't think it is anymore the business of this woman than it was the business of all the freeper types and the repugs.

Marriage is nessesary and good....but not for everyone.

[Interrobang]

22. Why is marriage necessary and good?

Why do I need an outside socializing agency to legitimize my private interpersonal relationships?

I've never quite understood this one myself. I can understand the perquisites of having a single blanket contract that takes care of many of the politico-legal issues marriage (or legal union) encompasses, but surely one could accomplish the same thing using a power-of-attorney?

If one looks at the history of religious and civil marriage, it very obviously stems from property rights (namely, property rights to the female half of the unit, and her reproductive capacities, not to mention the right to take over any property or assets she might own in her own name or through inheritance -- yes, historically, a husband owned all his wife's property, even if it was willed to her directly), and ties in directly to extended property rights, such as inheritance and succession, as well as (co-joint) lineages (very important, particularly among the armigerous class and bearers of, for instance, trade marks).

Predictably enough, the Church of the time, in its benevolent wisdom (snort), responded by legitimizing these unions, and emphasizing the sinfulness of sex outside of wedlock, because the major part of inheritance descended on the male line, usually, and historically the only way to ensure absolute male-line descendancy has been to enforce female monogamy (only, hence the existence of that troublesome double-standard). (Actually, the whole concept of the sinfulness of sex outside of wedlock refers specifically to the problems of inheritance between 'legitimate' and 'illegitimate' heirs. One can see similar solutions in the historic Church's decision to enforce chastity and celibacy amongst its priests -- therefore no troublesome inheritance issues among clergy's sons sapping the resources of the Church.)

So I fail to see what you people's problems are. Marriage, I think, doesn't work for everyone. I don't need it; I don't want it, and I would certainly hate to be forced into it. (Actually, I resent that in many cases, married people enjoy favourable tax and other perquisites -- even childless married people -- that similar single people or non-married couples do not.) The point is, I think, to not only leave the options open, but to recognize these inequalities (and the problems) where they occur.

Actually, from the sound of her argument, she's kind of like me, only without the self-knowledge to avoid getting into the situation in the first place. (If someone can give me a non-bullshit, actual definition for what "commitment" actually means in the context of relationships, I'm still waiting...usually when I hear the word, I immediately think, "'involuntary', oh, and that should be committal.") I don't think it's "self-centred" to think that there are huge problems with marriage as a political institution; I think it's just honest.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. did you miss the part where I said "but not for everyone?"

I think a good marriage is a stabilizing force in family life. I think kids are better off when their parents stay together (not in a bad marriage but in one where they have done what it takes to make it better..if possible).

I also think I have heard your particular rant about 1000 times over the last 30 years and I can tell you that It doesn't impress me anymore. Do what you think is best but don't pretend that marriage is something only people dupped by "the church" do.

[Braden]

15. I would imagine being married to her

would suck.

its great if you marry someone you want to be married to....

[zekeson]

18. I'ved loved it, every time I have tried it

:evilgrin:

[trof]

20. We've only been married 34 years

and if this damn relationship doesn't start to sort itself out in another 20 or 30 years
I AM FREAKING OUT OF HERE!
<SLAM>
:argh:

[FlaGranny]

21. My, my, what a

self-centered person this gal is.

In all these 36 years of marriage I never realized. I always felt happy. So glad she has shed light on the subject that I've really been an unhappy prisoner all this time. To quote one of my favorite TV personalities, "Who knew?"

[Nikia]

23. I prefer it

Maybe that is because I am an introvert type. I prefer having a few close friends rather than lots of aquaintances. If I go to a party, I prefer to talk to people who I know or meet only a few people rather than everyone at a large party. While it is true that I might have a problem if my husband was the only person who I spent time with, I am quite satisfied at times when I am spending time with just him. Yes, sometimes I think that it might have been quite exciting to have dated more people before settling down (Married at 22 and dated my husband since 19). I met the right person though and I feel that I am happier having him in my life than not. It is nice knowing that the person who you most care about will be there every day for you.

[Iris]

24. only if you are a conformist

[Deja Q]

25. As much as I long for marriage,

I'll check out this book!

[VOX]

27. You're half-right. My first marriage *did* suck. Ah, but the second one...

Is beautiful. I waited 25 years between the first and second marriage; my wife waited twelve years, so nobody rushed into anything. Her son is in college, her ex is a nice guy, so we didn't do it for economic reasons.

Heck, I guess we just love each other and enjoy each other's company, and prefer to live our lives as a team -- imagine that?

[Dirk39]

28. Agree and oppose...

it's a kind of dialectical thing. To oppose marriage as an institution is somehow the most "capitalistic" thing you can do. I don't like you no more, I can't profit from being with you anymore, there's something cheaper than you with better technical values? - F*ck up!
While at the same time, to stay in a relationship that is completely irrational for a promise once given, while it just has become destructive, is like the slavery capitalism still is for most human beings. While capitalism and the "bourgeois"-class were fighting all irrational relationships and tradition in general.
You're in a trap anyway and there is no solution. Like Adorno once wrote: Love is only love, if it even survives love.
I'm nearly fourty and I never was married and it's the right thing for me to do, but I would never offend people, who are married, besides all the problems they have (while I have mine). But I would never buy a book, that is "against" or "pro" marriage. At least I'm to old for this...
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Shanty Oilish]

29. Bolshoi

Anybody who'd call marriage a gulag, would surely be just as miserable alone.
I love being alone and I love being with my husband.
As for economics, desire is subordinate to it whether or not you're married. I think what marriage confers on a person is a better focus on that reality.

[Dogmudgeon]

32. Pity Poor Laura Kipnis

I imagine she was proposed to a couple of times by men she found "undesirable", and now has an animus against marriage.

Sure, there's a lot wrong with "marriage", but I think most of it involves what's wrong with our culture in general. Being unmarried subjects you to the other side of what sucks -- and that side sucks, too.

File this one with the pseudofeminist polemics that judge all men to be rapists -- and right next to the "dangerous thinkers'" books railing against Political Correctness Most Foul.

--bkl
Unmarried. Undesirable. Unimpressed.

[leftofthedial]

33. my personal experience

18 years of true bliss.

5 years of utter hell.

3 years of awkward boredom.

[noiretextatique]

34. actually, i agree with her more than i disagree

at least with her suggestion that the way some conceive of love and marriage is unrealisitic. she's actually saying monogamy is unrealistic, not just marriage, because of course, some married people are not monogamous. i remember a time when i didn't want a long-term, monogamous relationship, and i was happier then. i think there is tremendous pressure to couple, particularly for women.
and i agree that people often do stay in bad relationships because they are legally married, and also because some fear being alone. interesting this...now that i'm ready to take the plunge myself :D
one thing for sure: she will certainly strike a nerve, as evidenced by some of the comments here. :shrug: maybe she isn't bitter or lonely or going against "the norm"...maybe it is just a polemic :shrug:

[boilerbabe]

35. That's an interesting approach!!

I have never been married, at this point, don't even want to compromise myself enough to even go steady. I love kids, just give them back when I am done...since I make decent money and have my own home, and all that happy horse shit, I think it scares some and attracts some that I would just as soon give a pass on...can't win!!
I totally agree that (what I interpret anyway) many people settle for just any relationship, just to be in one, because they are societally (ok I made that word up it's been a looong day) programmed to do so...I just think I am getting too old and lazy and don't really feel the need to make myself into someone else's ideal...
And I am like the total goddess if you drink enough beers!!! Yooohooo I have references!!!
HA

[REP]

36. She's Almost Right

It's an archac patriarchal contrivance where a woman's fertility is sold to the highest bidder. All the talk of faithfulness was about women being faithful so ownership of the children (and marriage is supposed to produce children; just ask any fundy) could be established.

If people want to participate in it; fine, no skin off my nose. I do object to this religious ceremony having any legal status. I understand most people are more likely to do something if forced to - like get along; divorce is expensive thereby giving people incentive to stick out an unbearable situation; or pay for the care, food and housing etc that offspring require - and that our society has decided that a couple who marries after meeting the prior week is somehow more "real" than the cohabitating couple of 20 years and has deemed the newlyweds merit certain priviledges that the old cohabitors don't, and some may not wish to swim upstream to get those rights through other means. I think this can be remedied by a civil contract for those who feel the need, with religious marriages having no more sociolegal standing than a First Communion or Bar Mitzvah.