why is it "acceptable" for men to be topless, but not women?

[Heddi]

I only ask this because across the street from my house is a golf course, which I look down upon from my 4th story apartment.

Just a few minutes ago, a guy took off his shirt, swiped his head & armpits with it, and resumed his game without a shirt on.

I know that there is quite a large segment of society that view women's breasts as being 'sexual', or 'sexually provocative'.

The reality is that women and men both have nipples, and in some situations men can actually express milk from their breasts (again, in isolated situations).

Female Breasts are biological in nature. The only sexual organs in our bodies are our brain, our testes, and our ovaries.

The penis functions as a tract for urinary & reproductive systems, but as we've seen through various fertilization techniques, a "penis" is not needed for sexual reproduction. Neither is a vagina. In fact, the penis and the vagina, as well as the breasts and pubic hair, are 'accessory' sexual organs.

The breasts are only considered "accessory" sexual organs in a female because they go through changes during adolesence, but again, female breasts are not a requirement for reproduction of any kind.

So I wonder why so many people get in a tizzy when the idea of women walking around w/o a shirt or a bra, or with a see-through shirt, comes up in conversation.

And I should say for the record that I don't want to see ANYONE without a top on. I think it's very...distasteful for a man to walk around without a shirt on (in public I mean...around the house or the yard is another thing).

I know there are a few cities that have rescinded their laws against public decency with regards to women walking around topless----but that doesn't mean that people ACCEPT it, or WILL Accept it....and I think that's very....hypocritical to say the least.

I'd just like to hear other DU'ers thoughts on the 'acceptablity' of men walking around without shirts (regardless of whether they have 'the body' to do so or not, considering the large number of men who do not have Herculean bodies that feel the need to......force a view of their guts, hairy back, hairy chest, sweaty pits, etc, on me and anyone else who happens to catch them w/o shirts)

[TrogL]

1. It's acceptable in Ontario, Canada

The Supreme Court (probably in a fit of giggles) overturned the conviction of two girls sunbathing topless.

[Drifter]

84. I have no problem ...

come on over to the house, and I won't care one bit.
Uhm ... you're not a dude are you ?

Cheers
Drifter

[zekeson]

2. Gotta agree with you Heddi

whats good for the goose. And you are right, some people, myself included, should just not be seen nekid from the waste up - er, or down, for that matter.

[Heddi]

5. ha! -- msg --

you know, I don't want to see, or even BE SEEN, naked----My body isn't 'hot' in any way, and I would never 'force' someone to be in view of my flabby belly and jiggly thighs (except my husband---he HAS to look. Thats why i got married :) )

I feel the same way about Public Displays of Affection.

Yes, it's cute to see people holding hands, but I don't think that's a PDA--that's people holding hands.

However, I DO NOT like having to sit on the bus while 2 17year olds are at third-and-a-half base in the seat in front of me.

I don't like going to dinner and seeing two people making out at their table---I don't give a shit if it's an anniversary or birthday or whatever---It's gross, distracting, and quite rude behaviour considering you're in PUBLIC...not everyone wants to see it.

And the same with the topless men. I don't want to see it. And I wouldn't think differently if every guy had a hunky body. I think it's gross. I don't want to see your armpit hair. I don't want to see your tattoos. I don't want to see your belly or navel or any other part of your body.----and that goes for women and men.

And before anyone suggests that I'm a prude, or "what next---mandatory turtlenecks and long-sleeves for everyone" type of comments---don't be retarded.

There is a big difference between someone wearing CLOTHES and someone NOT wearing clothes.

I expect to see half-naked people if I go to a beach or a pool.

I should not be expected to see half-naked people when I'm shopping for groceries or walking to the bus, or sitting on the bus---

which is ANOTHER gross thing---shirtless men sitting on the bus, sweatting all over the seat---that is just GRODY, and the sad fact is, that someone who gets on the bus AFTER the shirtless sweat-man gets off is none the wiser to what they're sitting IN when they occupy that seat :yuck:

[arcane1]

3. I've always found it odd...

for much the same reasons you describe. Latent holdovers from the repressed religious right?

and don't get me started on the oddness of pasties :eyes:

[ibegurpard]

13. Good point on pasties

So that somehow covers them up? Whatever.

[Heddi]

15. speaking of pasties

once when I was young and impressionable (4months ago), I went to a strip-bar, and it was a totally cheap and nasty place....these gals were *SO* not dancer-material----they were quite old...OLD old...

Anyways, one of the dancers came out and her 'pasties' were actually bandaids. A friend who frequented this club on a disturbingly regular basis explained that her boobies were too...um...they were affected by age and gravity in such a way that the pasties wouldn't stay on. The glue apparently wasn't strong enough to fight against the effects that gravitational pull has on items that are pointing straight down t'wards the floor :)

[pmbryant]

4. I agree that men should wear shirts in public

Unless they're at the beach or something. :-)

Otherwise, it is indeed rather distasteful, at least in my opinion.

:hi:

--Peter

[Heddi]

9. Hey yourself!

Beaches ARE one thing---so are pools, and other areas of 'recreation' like that.

I expect to see people w/o shirts on at the beach, or the park, or the pool---that's NORMAL.

What is NOT normal is walking into the local Safeway without a shirt, allowing your (not YOU...editorial 'your') nasty chest-hairs, back-hairs, shoulder-hairs, pit-hairs to potentially fall all over the wonderful selection of fresh fruit and veggies that we know Safeway offers at down to earth, at-home prices.

Oh wait.....I forgot I don't work in advertising anymore...pardon the last bit o'flagrancy :)

[pmbryant]

10. Ewww

Not sure I can go to the local Safeway any time in the near future with that image in my head.

:scared:

Fortunately, there are no Safeways around here! :-)

--Peter

edit: 2 typos!!

[dani]

22. well if men can

go topless at the beach then women should be able to also. But then I'm imagining creepy guys with digital cameras and camcorders rushing the beaches, so I guess that wouldn't work.
;-)

[tabasco]

6. Because our boobs are smaller?

Just a guess.

[trof]

18. tiny tits

That's it!
Except that the older I get the closer I come to needing a bra.
jeez
I can't believe I just said that.

[Heddi]

20. no, you need a Bro

as inspired by Kramer & Mr. Costanza :)

[trof]

25. Thank you, Heddi!

That brought a smile.
:-)
See?

[arcane1]

29. you mean the "man-zierre", right?

:silly:

[Heddi]

31. My husband calls Man-Boobs "Moobs"

I love that phrase.

A friend introduced us to the word "Mangina" and "Munt" and I'm afraid because of the nature of this forum, I'm unable to expand upon the exact meanings of both of those phrases :)

But please feel free to assign your own meaning to them as you will :)

[TrogL]

33. You forgot "tween"

and no, I'm not going to explain that either.

[Heddi]

35. Hmmm...I've never heard that....

if you PM me with what Tween is, I'll let you in on the sacred knowledge of Mangina and Munt :)

[TrogL]

45. Done

:evilgrin:

[polmaven]

52. I'm not so sure of that

I have seen men walking around topless with larger breasts than mine.

Now I admit I'm not "Chesty Morgan", but I'm not flat chested either.

The point was, though, why is it that so many people...yourself included, apparently, see a woman's breast as sexual organs? They are feeding tubes...nothing more. They are meant to feed babies.... not grown men.

[Alenne]

7. Because most people aren't that mature.

I can go out fully covered and still have women and men, old and young staring at the D cups. I can only imagine what would happen if I didn't have on a shirt.

[Heddi]

34. I hear ya....

I've worn a bra since I was in 2nd grade...and we're not talking an Underoo's Trainer either...I"m talking full A cup at age 8, which have just kept on growing, right past puberty...I swear by the time i reach 30 (too few years away) I'm going to look like I stuck two watermellons in my shirt...on top of the two watermellons that are already there.

But I digress.

It's so disturbing to have a guy (usually it's older guys) talk to me and for some reason, he thinks my eyeballs are located at the end of my nipples. I guess back then they really DID have inferior biology classes in School, but come on...eyes on boobs? I think not....

Or when you're talking to someone and they keep looking down at the boobies....like they expect them to spontaneously start singing "This Land is My Land" and shooting fireworks.

I had to deal with this alot when I was working in Sales.

Oh---and I *HATE* the summer-time because that's when the air-conditioner is on. And of course, the air-conditioner can sometimes make the room chilly, thus giving you a 'nipply' effect. And of COURSE they're not nipply because of the cold---they're nipply because I'm so fucking turned on by the slob sitting in the cubicle next to me. Has NOTHING to do with his fan pointed directly at my desk pointing to my boobies. It's TOTAL SEXUAL :rolling eyes:

[Alenne]

51. Even more disturbing is

having some guy say damn her tits are huge to his friend while they giggle and nudge each other. I don't know if they think I will take it as a compliment or if they just don't care. It doesn't help that I am short and thin so my breast are very obvious. I used to think that it was by job to make sure people didn't stare but now I don't care.

[dofus]

8. Breast development in

human females is a secondary sexual characteristic. Not in males. In our culture some of those things (ssc's) are not considered fit to be seen in public.

Perhaps I'm a prude, but I don't want to see men or women going around topless in many places. There are also practical considerations for a lot of women -- breasts are best protected by a layer of clothing of some kind when out in public. Sort of like men's penises.

Yeah, I know that there are cultures where people don't wear clothes at all, but those are in warmer climates and where people live a much simpler kind of life.

[Heddi]

11. well muscle development in men

is a secondary sexual characteristic. Widening of shoulders, narrowing of the waist, loss of 'baby fat'---

but we don't suggest that men cover up their horrendously sexualized shoulders, or anything like that.

And why are breasts 'best protected' by a layer of clothing? I'm not suggesting the gals down at the manufacturing plant go swinging the boobies around machinery or anything....

ALL parts of our body are best protected by a layer of clothing when out in public (UV rays, anyone?), yet the only people we INSIST wear a layer of protective clothing above their waist when in public are women.

And I'm sure you've noticed, but quite a few men have breasts that are just the size of, if not larger than, the breasts of most women. Should they be forced to wear appropriate layers of protective clothing as well...you know...to protect their fragile nipples from unsuspecting dangers that lurk around every corner?

[Skittles]

14. why are breasts best protected by a layer of clothing

check out a few NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC magazines.

:O

[Heddi]

16. bras do NOTHING to keep breasts 'perky'

gravity and age and giving birth and the stretching of the skin cannot be 'corrected' by a brassiere----as evident by numerous grandmothers who, despite years of wearing an 18-hour, still have saggy boobies :)

[DoNotRefill]

39. Yeah...but just think...

Itf they HADN'T been wearing 18 hours all those years, they'd be sagging to the point that they interfered with walking!!! ;-)

There's sag, and then there's SAAAAAGGGGGGGG!!!!

[Skittles]

57. I beg to differ

there is no WAY bras don't help a BIT.

[Heddi]

67. Bras do not help

except for during the time when you're wearing a bra. They provide support and lift while you're wearing them, but once the bra goes off, all the support and lift you had while wearing the bra is gone gone gone.

The reason breasts get saggy during old age is the breakdown of collagen fibers--it's a naturally occuring process. The effects can be greater if you have larger breasts or have been pregnant. The effects can be less if you have smaller breasts.

The only thing that can be done to improve the taughtness of the breast skin is breast augmentation (where excess skin is removed, tightening up the breasts) or breast implants, which fill in the excess skin (or increase the size of the breasts if one is small chested).

Bras do nothing to prevent the natural aging of our bodies. They do not provide ANY TYPE of long term benefit because of their wear--

You could wear a bra 24 hours a day from the time you start puberty until the time you turn 85, and I guarantee you, when you take that bra off when you turn 85, your boobs will be JUST as saggy as they would have been had you never worn a bra in your life.

BTW---just so you know, this was explained in detail in both of the Anatomy classes I've taken over the last 12 months.

[ibegurpard]

12. I don't know...you're making my head hurt.

Yeah, theoretically there should be no difference. It's just a learned cultural thing. I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't react differently to a woman walking down the street topless than a man but I agree that it is inappropriate for members of either sex to go without shirts except in some venues.

[Heddi]

19. but can't we "unlearn" that conditioned thought?

and I'm not attacking you in any way--you're spot on with your assesment....

But there was a time when people, through learned (and acceptable) cultural norms, would have given a stinky-face to a black person walking down the street, or working behind the counter of a restaurant, or walking hand in hand with a white person.

But the majority of us have 'unlearned' those things that used to be quite acceptable cultural norms.

If you saw a woman walking topless, what would you think? How would you react? If you had a child, would you turn their head and cover their eyes ?

(again, please don't think I'm being antagonistic or attack-like. I'm genuinely curious how people think about these things)

[ibegurpard]

23. It would make me uncomfortable and yes it would take time

to unlearn that social conditioning. When I think about it, I really can't think of a logical reason why it SHOULD make me uncomfortable so I agree with you.

[TrogL]

17. sanitation, fetishes (incoherent babbling)

In a store or restaurant, people should be fully clothed for sanitation reasons (see the link in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=160874). Even in nudist areas, people are encouraged to carry a towel to sit on.

In public though, personally, I think everything should be permissible, even nudity.

There are some problems.

First off, children should not be over-exposed to sexualization. Nudity is fine in a naturist setting (eg. suntanning, sports) or in an adult context (the local gay bar is clothing-optional upstairs on some nights) (although that's more of a nekkidity context).

Secondly, there are those in our society who are incapability of controlling their impulsive behaviour and those who become highly sexualized at the drop of a hat (or piece of clothing). Until such time as society is willing to deal with them, it's probably a good idea for women to stay covered at least in North America.

The problem is the breast fetish. American men, for who knows why, are hypersexualized about breasts.

Public nudity is common in Europe. I sometimes visit hot springs near Banff and you can tell those visitors from Europe. They come out nude as a matter of course to a mixed-sex pool and need to be reminded that this isn't done in North America. Everybody laughs.

I read a description of a coal mining town. Every shift the miners would come home, strip off in the back yard and get hosed down by their wife. It was the culture of the area not to peek.

We are meat. People smell and sweat - that's the nature of living in meatspace.

[Heddi]

26. I totally agree with you

My uncle & his wife & kids are nudists....and they were telling us a story once of a guy that people just RAILED on because he didn't bring a sitting-towel and thought that being a nudist meant that you could do EVERYTHING nude while on the compound...they're just not like that. There are 'clothing optional" and "clothing mandatory" dinners and things like that, and this guy just couldn't get it through his thick (yet naked) skull that even with regards to 'nudists' and 'nudist colonies' there are appropriate and inappropriate times to be in the buff.

It's sad that us women must cover ourselves because of the madmen out there that no doubt see us as nothing but a walking fuck-hole (sorry) waiting to be fucked, and if we're naked, or scantily dressed, or wearing a skirt, or whatever, feel that they have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to get sex from us.

Of course, those people probably don't need to have something as complex as means or manner of clothing to expect sex from women, but the fact is as a woman, I have to second-guess everything I wear for fear that I will become a 'target' for some sicko-potential-rapists just WAITING for a scantily-clad fuck-hole to walk by him and arouse him.

I don't know---maybe because I'm a biology major, I just don't see why Boobies are the Be-All, End-All of female sexuality. THEY'RE NOT SEXUAL ORGANS---THEY'RE MILK FACTORIES...nothing more, and alot less...

[SiobhanClancy]

21. Democracy in action in Maine

http://free.freespeech.org/topfreedomusa/id4.htm

[TrogL]

32. I love the traffic argument

I suppose it might be a problem at first but no worse than the current situation. I've been known to drive erratically when confronted with a particularly hot number (either sex) walking down the street.

There's a Hooters at the local mall. There was a time when I had to spend a lot of time there waiting around for my partner to get off work so I'd sit near the Hooters and watch the action.

The problem was that for no adequately explained reason, they painted the inside of that area of the mall black and put little pinlights in the ceilings so it was really hard to see. The inside of Hooters was brightly lit. Guys (and possibly girls, although I never saw this happen) would walk down the hall, stare into Hooters and run smack-dab into a black lamppost.

[Old and In the Way]

46. That's the next town over from mine.....

Well, 2, if you count Corinna. Yes, "Desiree" caused quite a stir around these parts, mowing her lawn topless, last summer. From what I understand, it really wasn't anything to leer over, though.

[bucknaked]

24. What about this one...

Why is it that a seeing a woman, wearing a t-shirt and no pants is so f'n sexy, but to a woman, seeing a man with a t-shirt and no pants is at best, disgusting, and at worst (or usually) cause for alarm?

[Heddi]

27. well I'm not a man

but I can tell you I find no-one w/o a shirt or w/o pants to be sexy.

Why is a woman, in public, wearing no shirt and pants (at best), is whorish, overly-sexual, trampish, asking-to-be-rapedish, and cause for alarm?

[TrogL]

36. I don't find it all that sexy

(clarity)

Why is it that a seeing a woman, wearing a t-shirt and no pants is so f'n sexy

I'm also assuming you've got it backwards.

The whole purpose of upper-body nudity in all of these cases is primarily health/comfort related.

Over on my Speedo thread (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=160874) I was noting people's objections to Speedos. For me they serve two main purposes - comfort when I'm swimming, and cooling when I'm bicycling. I was riding for four hours yesterday and pretty much top speed in 30 C. weather. It gets HOT. Nevertheless, I had shirt and pants and shoes in my saddle bags so if I wanted to go into a public area, I could put them on.

[Deja Q]

28. Holy rationalizing, Batman!

That aside, you're technically correct...

Men should cover up their boobs too. :-)

And get a "wiener bra" so their well hung dicks don't look so provocatively delicious either, yes I look! :-9

[Heddi]

30. heh. Sorry---I can't help it :)

I'm a Nursing Student who takes very intesnse classes which require mucho rationlization for such simple things as the "Sodium/Potassium Pumps of the Kidney" and joyous conversation topics like that :)

Plus, I was going to be a sociology major B4 I chose nursing, but didn't know what a sociologist would do besides sit on a bench (or better yet, in their apartments) and write long diatribes on the social acceptability of half-naked men vs. half naked women...... :evilgrin:

[DoNotRefill]

37. I'm all for more nudity....

I'm naked right now!!! ;-)

Seriously, if you don't need clothing for protection of some form (from the sun, cold, bugs, or whatever) the fewer clothes the better. For me it's a comfort thing.

[Nikia]

38. I've wanted to take my shirt off

On really hot days during the summer, I've had the urge to take my shirt while doing things like canoing, throwing the frisbee at the park, or just sitting around outside. These are things that men do topless with the approval of most people. I've wanted to do so because it was hot and wearing a shirt keeps a lot of heat close to you. On the other hand, when I ran in college, we sometimes took off our shirts and ran in sports bras. We had all kinds of things yelled at us and honking horns. I suppose that it is socially conditioned but many people find breasts sexually attractive.
People should not go into places of business and public offices topless though. It just isn't polite or sanitary.

[TrogL]

41. Maybe if there was more public, non-sexualized nudity

People would get over it and just feel comfortable with it.

I've watched the female runners when I've been out bicycling and they looked uncomfortable and sweaty. Many, however, I suspect, needed the support a bra would provide.

[NightTrain]

40. I've often wondered that myself

Must be America's patriarchal, puritan heritage haunting us still!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. Equality for Women on This Issue!

And I am not at all saying that because I enjoy looking at breasts, so stop saying that!

:evilgrin:

DTH, Who Seriously Agrees With Heddi on This

[kathee]

43. Meat indeed, and electricity

But I differ in my perspective on the male body..

I ADORE a hairy man, pits and all. I think it's sexy, and beautiful.

I was surprised about the guy on the golf course, I always heard you not only had to wear a shirt, but a nice collared one. Guess he didn't get caught?
Mmm, give me a sweaty, hard working half naked hairy man to look at any day


And when in Rome...hey I sported my pregnant body on a Greek island when I was 21, in just my panties. Free tits, man I LOVED it!


I havent worn a bra in twenty years. All my friends who did, sag as much or worse than me. As someone above said, its the pregnancies, nursing, and age and size of breast, NOT the damn bra.

Stupid nipplephobia...and hell yes, I wear white tshirts. I seldom get stared at, but when I do, I smile. I dont get accosted. And it is mostly women who give me rude stares. Geesh, set em free!(though, I realize bigger breasted women like and may feel they need the extra support. Im a C, so I cant relate)

[Don_G]

44. Never Thought It About It Much

I don't go without a shirt, don't wear shorts unless I'm diving (worn-out cut-off jeans) and avoid a few bars in my city.

Forgive me. I never considered that a fat, hairy slob would be advertising or why....

[TrogL]

47. There is a culture that appreciates the large and hairy

People who are into "bears".

[miranda]

48. I agree

I agree with you 100%- it's not fair, but i guess it's a fact of life and always will be. :shrug:

[TrogL]

49. I wouldn't be so sure

Culture norms in North American are changing rapidly.

10 years ago, the concept of "gay marriage" actually happening would put you in the loonie bin. It's a reality in Canada.

The nudist/naturist movement is very popular in Europe and has been for decades, especially in Germany, where it arose out of a fitness craze. Given North America's fitness culture's expansion, I could easily see it here in a few years.

[arwalden]

50. Bravo!!!

Very well written. Well thought-out. Wonderful!!

-- Allen

[Iris]

53. thanks, but my breasts get enough attention with my shirt on.

[ProudGerman]

54. But they aren't "just milk factories"

Generally speaking, women get lots more pleasure when their ta-ta's are fondled than men. Grabbing a handful of the muscle on my chest won't do much for me as well as just about every guy I've known (I've asked), but I've known women where doing that the right way will get the motor humming.

Then again, if they are "just milk factories" and NOT sexual organs, then men could touch them all they want, and wouldn't be committing sexual harrassment. It'd be no different than touching someone's arm.

Is it social conditioning for a woman to feel completely violated if I were to walk up and grab her breast? She might not like it if I like lightly grabbed her arm, or touched her shoulder, but grabbing the boob is a definite no no. Now if a woman I didn't know where to walk up and grab one of my pecks, I'd be a bit put off. If she were to grab my "junk", I'd probably knock her down.

For the record, I'd prefer if boobs were covered at all times. It makes that rare moment when the bra comes off oh so special. I also agree that dudes should put a shirt on as well.

[Heddi]

55. I think that the fact that it's an erogenous zone

doesn't make it any more of a sexual organ than say, the back of the neck, or behind the ear.

People are 'turned on' by stimulation to different areas. I have to say that perhaps I've just dated a strange sector of men, but I've known MANY men (both friends and "friends") who would love nothing more than nipple stimulation.

Buttocks aren't sexual organs either, yet it's sexual harassment should you go up and pinch the buttock of a woman who was not wanting that to be done to her. It would be sexual harassment if you rubbed the shoulders of a woman who did not want that done to her. It would be sexual harassment if you held the hand, or caressed the arm of a woman who did not want that done to her. NONE of those parts of the body are sexual organs, yet if touched in a way that was unwarranted and unwanted, it would be JUST as sexually harassing as if you grabbed their boobs, or crotch (the crotch being the only 'real' part of the reproductive system mentioned so far).

And I wonder if women enjoy having their 'ta-ta's fondled' more than men, or if men THINK women enjoy having their 'ta-ta's fondled' more than they (women) really do.

:)

[bloom]

58. It's a hormonal thing

I assume you haven't breast-fed.

Breasts most certainly are not like other body parts. I think of them as part of the sexual arena - ( and there is the reproductive function - if you don't consider bottles. Women are 'made' to enjoy breastfeeding - it's part of the package).

And men - like it or not are more visual. And the historical sensibility is that women have more to fear of mens harassment than visa-versa.



edit - spelling

[dofus]

62. Having breast-fed two children

for two years each, I can assure you that my breasts are not much of an erogenous zone as far as I'm concerned. Even though it's been well over a decade since I last nursed, I'd still rather they not be touched in an attempt to turn me on.

In cultures where women don't cover them up, they don't seem to be erogenous zones. In our culture we almost always do, and the exceptions (certain beaches or "clothing optional" places, certain places of entertainment) are such that women's breasts have an entirely different meaning than men's breasts. That plus the feeding function.

[bloom]

71. Differences

RE: "And I wonder if women enjoy having their 'ta-ta's fondled' more than men, or if men THINK women enjoy having their 'ta-ta's fondled' more than they (women) really..."

And in response to you as well...

Women must just be different. Apparently some women get aroused more before having ever breastfed - others more after - some maybe never. I don't know. I would have expected more similarities in something like that. Just goes to show you. You never know.

[carolinayellowdog]

56. Sociobiology and rape

If a barechested man turns on another man to the point of arousal, the danger of rape is lessened by the greater ability of a man to fight off an attacker. (Plus, gay men are less aggressive than straights.) Even if a man gets raped, he can't get pregnant.

A barebreasted woman will arouse 19 times as many males as a barebreasted man will (assuming gays are 5% of the population); straight men are more likely to be rapists than gay men; women are less able to fight off rapists than men; and if they do get raped the consequences are more catastrophic.

My take,

CYD

[TrogL]

61. What a load of crap

the danger of rape is lessened by the greater ability of a man to fight off an attacker

I'm the original 139 lb weakling. I couldn't fight off an ant, especially one carrying a weapon or who has me at a psychological advantage.

gay men are less aggressive than straights

Another generalization. I have to deal with the gay man in my face, not your straw man.

Even if a man gets raped, he can't get pregnant.

There's a lot more to being raped than getting pregnant. You can catch STD's especially HIV/AIDS and there's all sorts of psychological damage.

[carolinayellowdog]

65. The question was a general one, not about you

but about why society has an irrational bias concerning male vs. female breasts. It undeniably does have such a bias, and it's undeniable that women have more cause to fear rapists than men do.
Nowhere in my response was it asserted than men have *no* risk of being raped, or that the consequences are negligable when they are. The generalization about gay men and aggression BTW is not off the cuff but based on empirical research. Why not offer your own theory about why public barechestedness is a male privilege, rather than attack mine with irrelevant objections?

[TrogL]

66. Did that already

See post 17.

That's not my point. All people should fear being raped.

By your logic, kids shouldn't play in playgrounds because they might attract pedophiles.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

73. I totally agree

the idea that men don't or can't get raped or if it does happen it's not as bad is totally wrong and it is a dangerous stereotype to perpetuate. I speak as a victim.

[ButterflyBlood]

59. seriously, I doubt any guys would complain

:)

but honestly, common sense would dictate this would be popular. more freedom for the women, obvious reasons for the men

[baldguy]

60. Would these help?

[boilerbabe]

63. get a paintball gun

you can shoot the guys that you doon't like to see ---in many colors!! i guess there will never be some parity there...

[DoNotRefill]

87. Sure...

and be arrested for assault and battery....

[TreasonousBastard]

64. Personally,

I find it perfectly accdeptable for women to go topless.

[SiouxJ]

68. I don't know

don't you think if all women go around topless, like they do in some third world countries, it would desensitize men to women's breasts? I mean it would kind of take all the fun out of it for men AND women for that matter. I think it's cool that men get a, well, "rise" out of breasts and I think if they were just everywhere, that would change. It might take a generation or so, but eventually they would lose that "thrill." Just a thought.

[dawg]

70. From a man's point of view, I agree with you ....

There's just something about reaching around to undo the clasp, and watching that bra come off that brings out the horny 18 year old in me. And yes, I do think that would be lessened if women were walking around topless everywhere.

[Heddi]

74. That's my point

throughout this thread, and throughout society, men's breasts are seen as just a part of the chest. Nothing more. Just flesh.

But women's breasts are unnecessarily sexualized to the point of being JUST AS SEXUAL as the vagina---which is utterly retarded because THEY ARE NOT SEXUAL ORGANS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. They serve a biological function (provide milk for offspring), but they're not a sexual organ.

THey're no more sexual than an adam's apple, or broad shoulders, or widened hips, or permanent teeth.

But throughout this thread, and throughout society, we (women) have been told "Oh! You can't do that! Men find it sexy, so if you go out in public, you're ENCOURAGING men to fondle you, and to hoot at you, and to gawk at you"----basically the SAME thing that we (women) were told when we started wearing Bikini's, or mini-skirts, or more revealing clothes than were worn during victorian times.

I think it can be proven that some men are rapists, and that the amount of clothing a woman decides to wear has absolutely NO bearing on whether she CAN be raped, WOULD be raped, or DESERVES to be raped. Although we hear differently from the media. We're told that victims were out partying and not wearing underwear (oh the horrors!) or that she was scantily clad, or wearing a short skirt.

As a woman, I'm tired of basically having to go outside wearing a long-sleeved turtleneck, and a skirt down to my ankles, gloves up to my elbows, boots up to my knees, and a hat JUST to ward off the offending glances or thoughts of any wayward males. It's utterly rediculous.

The fact is, SOME men will take advantage, or make crude remarks, or touch a woman inappropriately REGARDLESS of what she wears---yet we're told (through society norms) that to avoid this at all costs, WE (women) should re-think what we wear. If WE (women) wear something short and scanty, we're basically DESERVING of any comments that come our way. That WE (women) should really think about what we want to wear and weigh that against the possiblity of crude remarks, cat-calls, or sexual harassment.

Yet MEN are never told "Perhaps you SHOULD NOT Catcall a woman just because she's wearing a short skirt"---No. We (women) are told that if we wear the short skirt, we should EXPECT harassment.

As I stated in an earlier message---a few generations ago, it was perfectly acceptable to harass a black person walking down the street. It was perfectly acceptable to harass a black person walking hand-in-hand with a person of another race. It was perfectly acceptable to harass a black person that didn't use the "blacks only" waterfountain or bathroom.

But we've 'unlearned' those former cultural norms---not everyone, but the majority.

Why is it that we can't 'unlearn' that a woman's breasts were NOT put there solely for the sexual pleasure of men? Why can't we "unlearn" that a woman walking around without a top on is no more a whore, a tramp, or asking to be raped, than a man is when HE walks around topless.

As a woman, I'm tired of having to be a 'potential victim' with regards to everything I do. And I'm tired of society pretty much NOT addressing the point that it's not about ME changing MY actions so I'm not a victim, but MEN changing THEIR actions and intentions so I don't have to FEAR being a victim...

[SiouxJ]

75. Point taken

I don't have time for a flame war here so I'll just say that I agree that we as women unfairly have to endure risk and harassment but I don't think making breasts non-sexual is a good answer. It's true, some men need to change their actions but some men, decent men, already respect women and can appreciate a woman's breasts without feeling the need to act like an animal. We don't need to punish all men because there are some assholes out there. I think it's just fine that men see breasts as something sexual. I don't think they should be exploited but I really don't have a problem with it. In fact, as I said above, I rather enjoy the fact that they like 'em. I think I would really hate it if they didn't. Yes, it's totally unfair that we as women have to fear walking alone at night. It absolutely sucks! But I don't want to take away the enjoyment of having a man finding my breast appealing to eliminate that fear. I don't have the answer but I think there must be other ways to do it.

[bloom]

82. Well - I used to think more like you do

I thought everyone should be the same and that SOCIETY was doing something to sexualize women.

I now think that there are just differences. And that many a woman enjoys taking advantage of men's visual responsiveness and THAT is why there are so many women parading around with clevage and what have you. (Not that her attire means she is asking to be raped - many ARE asking for attention).

I think men "get away with no shirts" because it's just not that big a turn-on. Women are different. And I don't think it's just "learned".

_____________________________________

I still think there is a case for breasts as part of being sexual organs:

"On the other hand, women take much longer for arousal, during which the clitoris and the nipples becomes erect, vaginal fluids are secreted, and the breasts become flushed."

"In both men and women, the nipples and the area around the genitals become flushed during orgasm."

http://www.ecureme.com/especial/obgyn/Sexual_Satisfaction.asp


"He (Kinsey) estimated that breasts and especially the nipples of the breasts were erotically sensitive in perhaps half of the females (with breast stimulation alone sufficient for orgasm in a very small percentage of females), (p. 157, 161, Female)."

http://www.samabhavana.org/kinsey_scale.html

[pmbryant]

83. Good post Heddi

But a small correction...

Yet MEN are never told "Perhaps you SHOULD NOT Catcall a woman just because she's wearing a short skirt"---No. We (women) are told that if we wear the short skirt, we should EXPECT harassment.

The vast majority of men (at least the ones I know ;-) ) would never behave that way, and the reason is societal conditioning, I think. So men are indeed told they shouldn't do that, at least in my circles.

Of course, there are certain circles where that behavior may be condoned, but they are probably a small minority. Alas, not an insignificant one apparently.

:-(

--Peter

[Heddi]

88. yes, they are a small, yet vocal and powerfull minority

My husband isn't like that---he doesn't say "nice jugs" to any woman walking down the street. He doesn't oogle or stare or make whistling sounds.

He doesn't slow his car down to take a good look if a hard-body is jogging down the street in short-shorts and a tank top.

And none of my male friends are like that either.

But as a female, albeit one with *NOT* a traditionally 'hot' or 'sexy' body (Although I would have been a hit in Rubenesque-loving Rome...), I still get oogled at. I get cat-calls. I get comments. And it's digusting.

And generally the guys that are like that on the streets are the same guys that are like that at work, and at home, and they're the ones that have the power.

I had a boss that felt it was his absolute right to rub my shoulders whenever he came into my cubicle at work. Even when my husband or other co-workers were standing there.

This was also the guy that when we went out for company dinners would comment about the waitresses either being hot enough for him to fuck, or being too ugly to be allowed out of the house.

No, all men aren't chauvenistic pigs. The vast majority of men aren't. The vast majority of men DO respect women, and DO appreciate women and treat them in a humanistic way.

However, the ones that are NOT like that---the ones that ARE pigs are the ones that are the loudest, and have the most power, and get the most attention----THOSE are the guys I'm talking about. A small minority, yes, but a powerful minority at that.

[pmbryant]

89. You're absolutely right

Their behavior is despicable.

:evilfrown:

--Peter

[TrogL]

90. Hell, I do that

He doesn't slow his car down to take a good look if a hard-body is jogging down the street in short-shorts and a tank top.

and some people are just "touchers".

I had a boss that felt it was his absolute right to rub my shoulders whenever he came into my cubicle at work.

They totally creep me out. They cannot speak coherently unless they're touching you - your hands, your face, wherever...and I hate to be touched at the best of times.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. It's perfectly acceptable

for either sex to go topless as far as I'm concerned. You are right, ugly is ugly. It might not look good, but I don't consider it offensive. Now, an 'I support the President' t-shirt, that's offensive.

[TXlib]

72. Hear, hear! I'm all for toplessness for everybody!

[NicoleM]

76. Had this conversation with some guys once

The consensus was that it would take a generation or so, but eventually men wouldn't ogle nearly as much as they would if I were to walk down the street topless today. I don't stare when I see a topless man, because it's a culturally acceptable thing I've seen lots of times.

So let's take our shirts off, ladies! :) Seriously, though, I feel conflicted because on the one hand I hate that there's this thing that men are "allowed" to do that I'm not. OTOH, I don't want the staring. I've never been brave enough to just do it. Even when I was at women's college and everybody else was streaking, I had to keep the bra on.

[pippin]

91. it would take a generation or so, but eventually men wouldn't ogle

Nobody ogles in Scandinavia where women sunbathe topless and certainly no one bothers in the Amazon, or Borneo. It's American fetishsizing of breasts--make them taboo to look at--or at best permit peekaboo exposure. Think about what advertising, movies, fashion or any business would do if we were all no longer titillated by the sight of a breast. we'd have to think up how to fetishsize some other part of the anatomy. Used to be the sight of a woman's ankle would drive a man up the wall, and in Japan it used to be the back of a woman's neck. Go figure.

[MissMillie]

77. I agree w/ you too, but....

... if I unleash these things, someone will get hurt.

[qb]

78. My grandma used to get peeved by topless men in her soaps!

She'd say "that man needs a brassiere!"

[Blue_Chill]

79. You will get no complaint from me on this issue

In fact I say in order to make up for what society has done to women, let's make men keep their shirts on while women are allowed to take them off where ever they wish.

:D

[ComerPerro]

81. Its only fair

I think this is a good step towards progress

[ComerPerro]

80. Hey, by all means

Walk around topless.

No complaints here.

[TheYellowDog]

85. Omg Heddi

I always think the same thing. I personally think that it is discriminatory for tv networks to show male toplessness but not female toplessness. This must be changed. :D

[Heddi]

86. we were watching a show last night

on human sexuality.

They were showing the guys topless and part of their butts, but the women were always covering their boobs and they would only show their thighs, not their buttocks.

what are they covering on the female?
*the voluptiousness of the breast? There are plenty of men with quite round breasts, yet they don't get censored on television
*the nipple? Again, the men they were showing topless had nipples (as 99.9% of men do), yet that wasn't censored on television

Why were the men allowed to show bare butt, but not the women?

I'm tired of having the constant reinforcement through media, society, etc, that MY body is ALWAYS A SEXUAL OBJECT solely because I have ovaries instead of testes.

Why are a woman's boobs a sexual object? Why does a topless woman in a movie get an R rating, while a man can be topless in a G movie?

Why is it that a man, full-frontal nudity gets an R rating, but a woman, full frontal nudity, generally gets a NC-17 rating?

I AM NO MORE OF A SEX OBJECT THAN A MAN IS....my gonads do not pre-empt me to be more 'sexual' than a man's does....