So help me understand gay culture.

[MissouriTeacher]

I'm a straight guy. I'm certainly not anti-gay, and I don't consider myself homophobic at all. I've had one gay friend (that I know of), and his sexuality was never an issue with me. Basically we just never talked about it.

But some things about gay culture really confuse me. I was brought up Southern Baptist, and obviously taught that homosexuality was a sin and unnatural and all that so I'm coming from a rather skewed perspective.

What I'm wondering is this, why is it that gay men often exhibit feminine characteristics such as speaking effiminately? And why is "drag" popular among gays? Both of these would seem to suggest that gay men, in some way, really are attracted to women, or at least femininity in some form.

Likewise with lesbians, contrary to what is portrayed in porno, most lesbian women I see cut their hair very short and dress more like men dress. This too would suggest that gay women are actually attracted to masculinity in some way.

To put it in another light, if my wife decided to put on a fake moustache and start speaking in a low voice like a man, I wouldn't be turned on by this at all (silly analogy, but hopefully you get the point).

I realize I'm advancing stereotypes here, but I've seen this with my own eyes, and I've never quite understood it. I know their are gay DUers here, just wondering if they could help shed some light on this. :D

[Iris]

1. "if my wife decided to put on a fake moustache"

check out the movie "9 1/2 Weeks".

(Sorry, i don't have any answerst to your questions because I'm not gay.)

[MissouriTeacher]

2. I've seen it.

But I don't remember which scene you're referring to (I saw it a long time ago).

[Iris]

7. There's a scene in which Kim Basinger is dressed in a top hat

and coat and has a fake mustache. It seemed to work for Mickey Rourke.

[noiretextatique]

3. i don't claim to have all the answers

but i don't think there is one "gay culture" anymore than there is one "straight culture." you probably notice the more noticeable gay people who look or act a certain way, but there are many more that you probably never notice. and of course, there are effeminate straight men, and some very butch-looking straight women :7

i do know that the drag culture is a sub-culture within "the gay culture," and that cross-dressing and gender-bending is not confined soley to gay people.

and if you think all lesbians are either butch or femme, or that all gay couples role-play...that is also a misconception. i know some gay women who look like supermodels, and some who like, well...average. likewise with men...my nephew, for example, is a big stapping football player, nothing remotely effeminate about him, and he's gay.

people are really just people.

[MissouriTeacher]

6. I admit I am ignorant about all of this.

So I apologize for making any offensive statement or over-generalizing too much.

Of course I can only speak from my experience on all of this, which is pretty limited.

[noiretextatique]

9. no need to apologize...the best way to find out is to ask

i hope my response was useful to you. i've actually been talking about this a lot recently with my new friend, who has some issues with being closted and "appearing straight." i just tell her: gay is whatever you are. if she's confused, and she's gay...i can only imagine how you feel.
i think it's great that you asked...what better way to educate yourself than to go directly to the source? :hi:

[MissouriTeacher]

11. Yes, thank you.

It was.

[FloridaJudy]

18. Hear, Hear!

Absolutely the best way to deal with any minority, is to be up-front and just ask: "How would you like to be treated?" Is there something special I should call you? Are there any touchy subjects you'd prefer *not* to discuss? Do you need any special assistance?

Since I'm a medical professional, I go on to explain "some of the things I'm going to ask you sound rude and nosy, but it's information I need in order to deliver the best possible health care". Then I explain exactly *why* I need some sensitive information: I need to know how old you were when you first had sex in order to know how likely you are to have cervical cancer. I need to know if you're using illicit drugs or abusing alchohol so that I won't prescribe a medication that can kill you....

This goes a bit beyond the Golden Rule of treating others as you would like to be treated, to treating others as THEY would like to be treated. My colleagues marvel at how well I get along with patients that they regard as "difficult".

It's dead easy, folks:

IF YOU DON'T KNOW, JUST ASK!

The only stupid question is the one that you *don't* ask

[TheYellowDog]

23. Exactly what I was thinking

Thanks for saying it!

[CBGLuthier]

4. a simple answer from a straight guy

Any and all things are possible. I myself am moderately effiminate but I really enjoy sex with women.

I would suggest you stop trying to define people and just accept that we are all different and unique and not required to fit into some predetermined societal molds.

[TheBigGuy]

5. well...gay culture is pretty tough to pin down.

Around here you do have that drag thing....but its sort of a theatrical thing...but maybe also a sexual attraction thing too....femme = butch.

Then there is that more ultra masucline thing, like the levii-leather culture....as illustrated by the Dayton "Gryphons:":
http://www.geocities.com/Daytongryphons/

[MissouriTeacher]

10. I forgot about that stuff...

the whole "Tom of Finland" look I believe it's called.

I guess that certainly proves that not all gay men are effeminate. :)

[mitchum]

14. Am I the only one who thought that the Unabomber sketch...

looked like it was drawn by Tom of Finland? Sorry, I know this is off-topic.

[TheBigGuy]

27. there was a bit of Castro-Clone to it...odddly enough...

...Crazy Ted didnt look much like the sketch to me...

...which alwaysn looked more like Mark Sptiz.

[Duncan Grant]

8. Hi Missouri Teacher!

I'm a gay man from St. Joseph, Missouri...small world. I'm kind of in the middle of something right now but will try to address some of your questions in the next hour or so.

Great post! So glad you've been candid and specific with your questions (honestly I am, no sarcasm there!).

More later... :hi:

[MissouriTeacher]

12. Hi.

I'm north of Kansas City, not too far away from St. Joe. B-)

[jono]

13. Let me speak from my experiences

since that's all I can really do.

I'm a gay man and I don't consider myself all that effeminate, but I'm slender and my wrists limp sometimes. Some people seem to know immediately. Others who I have worked with for years had no idea when I finally said something to tip my hand. I know lots of "mushy" (i.e., sensitive, effeminate, well-kempt) men who are straight (I'm speaking of good friends, so I'm confident that they're not closet cases). I also know butch, 200+ pound construction workers who are gay men - and trust me, the ones I happen to know are fashion nighmares! :) So although there sometimes is truth in stereotypes, don't be fooled by them.

I like to do drag every once in a while. Not often, maybe once or twice a year, for parties. Let me be clear about this: for me, it has nothing to do with an attraction to the opposite sex. It's something I like to do for fun. I can dress up as somebody else and pretend to be someone I'm not for a night. Plus I get to shock some people, which is always fun in my book. It's almost like Halloween, except I'm guaranteed to get to wear fake boobs.

on edit: I also concur with noiretblu's point that cross-dressing is, by no means, limited to the gay community.

[MuseRider]

15. I think it is great

that you would ask and try to understand. I am not gay but have many gay friends and my brother was gay so I have all of his friends. I have learned that we are all people, plain and simple. Still it never hurts to ask and learn. There is a woman on this board who has a wonderful web site about relating to gays when you really aren't around many. It is funny, informative and very human. If I can find it I will PM it to you or maybe she will show up and guide you to it.

[KG]

16. what is there to understand?

the gays of both sexes i've known and know are as diverse as heteros in their politics, opinions, hobbies, occupations, race, passions, etc.

i've mostly just considered them 'people'. :)

[ronnykmarshall]

17. Being free

I'm not into drag myself, but I've done drag for Halloween (god am I UGLY as in drag) and for me it's more of a freedom. Freedom to perform and lose myself in a "mask". I've been a nurse, a IHOP waitress and my favorite candidate for SF mayor (Angela Alioto). It was about performing.

I'm not attracked to "fem" guys, but my ex looked cute in drag and was a fucking stud in bed. It's not really about wanting to be a woman, it's more about not having to be cast in "roles" that the straight world says men should be. Yeah, I'm not the most macho mother fucker around but that's just who I am. Period.

Be who you are and fuck everyone else that doesn't like it!

[Duncan Grant]

19. Great thread but have to delay a worthwhile response...

to you Missouri Teacher! I'm meeting friends tonight for dinner but there's a lot of wonderful gay DUer's here who can answer your questions.

Let's PM sometime! And if this thread is up tomorrow...I'll try again. We should talk about what exit on I-29 you use! :D

[Ivory_Tower]

20. This is a good thread

MissouriTeacher, you aren't alone. I'm a straight male, too, and never had much exposure to open gays until much later in my life -- my early life consisted of being exposed to stereotypes presented by popular culture (yes, I still laugh at some of the gags from, say, Monty Python routines, but I accept them as stereotypes now, and not as accurate reflections of society).

Since then, most gays I've known have not been particularly effeminate. I met a gay couple who had a penchant for flowery shirts, but I have several straight friends who have the same penchant -- so there goes that stereotype. I also have a gay co-worker with whom I get along very well, and I didn't realize he was gay until he started to casually talk about "my boyfriend" in conversation.

On the other hand, I've also known some gays and lesbians who did fit the stereotypical behavior model (acted effeminate or butch), so like everyone has been saying, it all depends on the individual.

To the poster who said it's important to ask questions like this, I agree, but it's also important to ask such questions as tactfully as possible. You did a good job in not making your post sound accusatory or sarcastic or otherwise offensive in some way. Unfortunately I do recall asking what I thought was an innocent question (I can't even remember how I worded it) that turned out to be offensive to the person I was asking. I felt awful about it, but like they say, you can't unring a bell.

As for the cross-dressing, I've done it a few times for Halloween. Does that count? In fact, as a middle-aged, hairy, slightly overweight male, I'm thinking "belly-dancer" might be a good costume this year!

I want to keep reading this thread, it's very enlightening. And it's a very positive thread so far -- hopefully I haven't said anything stupid to break the chain...

Just wanted to pipe in with my thoughts.

[TrogL]

21. I'm gay and don't do any of those things

I sing second bass, despise drag. I went through two marriages basically by forcing myself into it. It was a disaster each time. I'm now in a gay relationship and everybody involved is much happier.

Many of the lesbians I know do not dress or act "butch". Those that do, do so because it's more natural for them.

Having your wife put on a mustache wouldn't be natural.

In the clobber passage in Romans (see http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/bibquote.html) it mentions people doing things "unnatural".

Homosexuality occurs naturally in the rest of the animal kingdom.

Get over it.

[TrogL]

22. sorry to be so harsh

you hit a sore point

[MissouriTeacher]

25. Well, I wasn't trying to.

And I'm not sure what I need to "get over".

I am just looking for information here.

[Blue_Chill]

24. What's with the sudden lisp?

I've had a few friends that waited to 'come out' and admit it. None of us cared because a guy is a guy is a guy, who they sleep with is their business.

But I have a honest question and I mean no offense. But what is up with the lisp that some people that come out suddenly develope. Is it like the inner city thing where you adopt the accent to fit in?

[TrogL]

26. It annoys me too

But I have a theory. I suspect that up until they come out, they have been forcing their voices to project really loud so they won't "sound gay". When the come out and relax, they don't keep as careful control over their voice so they fall into habits that they should have outgrown during adolescence if they weren't so busy shouting all the time.

[comsymp]

30. Another theory on that...

kinda reflects the premise behind MO Teacher's observation/question.

For a lotta gay guys/lesbians who are first coming out, we... uh, I mean they are probably already very self-conscious, especially after spending God knows how long hiding a very important aspect of themselves from their friends/family. Naturally, they would be anxious to fit into the culture, as they perceive it- and if the new Outee has a bit of a stereotypical view, having been exposed to Gay Culture (next discussion: Gay Culture, is there such a thing?) via Queer Eye, Queer/Folk or Will/Grace and hasn't had the experience of meeting "regular" 'mos... well, when in Rome, right?

Many years (and pounds) ago I did my share of flitting and scorching ceiling tiles, until I became comfortable with myself and integrated my sexuality into the whole. After that, it was pretty much back to being just me- but finally, all of me.

Just one Mo's opinion...

[Blue_Chill]

34. thanks for the response

I have a feeling that you may be right on that. I must admit I was always curious what the deal with that was but never wanted to offend anyone by asking.

Thanks

[greekspeak]

28. Media Stereotypes to a great degree

Like any other social group, the lgbt community has a set of stereotypes associated with it. One is genderbending. It happens, sometimes to an almost comic degree. I know scads of gay men who have deep voices, "masculine" physiques, and are just as "straight acting" as anyone. I am a pretty big flamer myself. I don't lisp, but my voice sounds "gay." I get excited and it gets worse. My gait is "gay." I like interior decorating. Some people in my social circle called me "Grandma Mike." BUT...I also go to the gym and do not look waifish. I do not wear effeminate clothes, or nice clothes. I hate track lighting. We are all our own person.

One of my closest friends is a lesbian whose greatest complaint about the lesbians in our hometown was that they had to be capital "L" Lesbians-mullets, masculine, softball, beer you name it. To some extent this was true. True of the gay men in our community too. I got the idea that most of the people who acted this way did it because they felt they had to. But honestly, you go into a gay bar and you probably wouldnt be able to tell the straight people from the gays in many instances.

[Plaid Adder]

29. Shoot me for even getting involved in this conversation.

But here goes.

I am a lesbian. My partner is, naturally, also a lesbian. She has short hair and wears pants a lot. Yet, to me, she does not look even remotely 'masculine' or 'mannish.' She looks like an extremely beautiful woman who has short hair and wears pants.

Why does she wear pants a lot? Well, because they're comfortable and practical, and because she has a great butt. And because if you wear a skirt to work you have to wear pantyhose. You ever worn pantyhose? or high heels? Try it sometime. Pantyhose are a device designed by Satan to torment women and the same goes for high heels. OK, that's an exaggeration. In fact, they are both devices designed by men to get women's bodies to conform to a particular standard which straight men find attractive. The fact that they are both uncomfortable and inconvenient may or may not be a coincidence. I could get into why it is that men find it exciting when their women are wearing contraptions that limit their ability to move about freely, but that would take us far afield.

My point here is that you are working off traditional and fairly rigid definitions of what's "feminine" and "masculine." Part of the fun of kissing the whole heterosexuality thing goodbye is that you no longer have to do something stupid, inconvenient, annoying, or just plain not you just because a bunch of advertising magnates have told you that if you don't do it, you're not a Real Woman. I don't wear makeup. Never liked it, never got into it. Feel that I look better without it. My partner agrees. I feel the same way about her. Plus, frankly, when I kiss her, I would much rather taste her than Maybelline's Hottie Red Colorfast Lipembalment or whatever the hell they're pushing these days. If I were a straight woman, I would probably be forcing myself to wear this crap in hopes of attracting a man. But, thank God, I'm not, so I don't have to!

I might also point out that there are plenty of lesbians out there who do the whole femme thing to the nines, with lipstick and hose and heels and all the rest of it. You probably just don't know that they're lesbians, because to you, they look just like straight women.

The bottom line is: being "feminine" is not natural. The amount of work that most women have to go through to look "feminine" would probably shock you (unless you live with a woman who isn't shy about letting you watch the assembly process). The shaving, the waxing, the tweezing, the applications of creams and unguents and makeup...we opt out of a lot of that crap simply because we can. But from our POV, that doesn't mean we want to be men. We're just being what women are like *before* they put themselves through all this crap.

So. Why do gay men, who don't *have* to do any of this crap either, seem to really enjoy doing it? Well, that is a complex and thorny issue, but on one level it is simply an expression of their freedom from the traditional and rigid definition of masculinity. Many gay men have spent years smarting under the pressure of having to conform to an idea of manliness that just does not fit with who they are. When they finally realize they can jettison this crap, well, the excitement of freedom can be intoxicating, and for whatever reason, some of them end up getting into drag and doing all of that shit that I am so very happy not to have to bother with, *on purpose*--just because they can.

Anyway. Since you are no doubt a patriotic red-blooded American, think of it in terms of liberty and freedom. Why should we be oppressed by someone else's idea of what it means to be a woman or a man--especially since according to the mainstream definitions of masculinity and femininity, men are supposed to lust after women, and women are supposed to lust after men? We know we don't fit THAT part of the mold; so why bother with the rest of the crap attached to it?

You asked, I answered,

The Plaid Adder

[comsymp]

31. I like your response better than mine

... as usual.

Very well said.

[MissouriTeacher]

32. Thanks plaid adder.

That was very informative.

[REP]

35. Don't Have To Be Gay to Dislike Make-Up and Hose!

I almost always wear pants, and when I wear skirts, I almost never (like maybe once every 5 years) wear stockings or hose. I don't wear makeup, and while my hair is long, it's wash'n'wear styled.

A lot of women opt out of the 'femme' style and it has nothing to do with their sexuality; and others may do some but not others just because they like to, and don't give a shit if anyone else notices.

I understand what you're saying, but wanted to make sure that it's understood that a lot of straight women don't put themselves through all the crap, either (and there seems to be a lot of straight men who like women who look like women, not dolls, too).

[Plaid Adder]

39. I knew someone would write in about this...

You're absolutely right; I was not intending to imply that any woman who opts out of Femininity(TM) is necessarily a lesbian. There are a lot of reasons why a woman would want to depart from the traditional program when it comes to gender identity, and sexual orientation is only one of them.

Similarly, as I said, lots of lesbians get into doing the femme thing. Basically, everyone does gender in a different way and you really can't make generalizations without getting yourself in trouble. I was just trying to make the point that the association of short hair and pants, say, with masculinity, is arbitrary and not something that nature bred into us.

In fact, I forgot to say this last night, so what the hell:

If a guy showed up to work in 21st century America wearing tights and brightly colored jacket with puffy sleeves, he would raise a lot of eyebrows. If a guy showed up to work in the same outfit in 16th century England, he would only raise eyebrows if he happened to have particularly fine legs. In Renaissance England, it was just part of the masculine ideal to 1) have a great body and 2) be brazen about showing it off. It was that way, really, all through the eighteenth century. Nowadays, men don't wander around in hose and heels--because encasing your body in tight clothing and putting yourself on stilts so you emphasize your calf muscles for the delectation of passersby is the kind of thing that only women are supposed to do.

A lot of what we consider 'masculine' or 'feminine' about the way we dress and act has to do with who's supposed to be the sexual object, and that's another thing that explains why gay people do this differently. In our culture, 'our' being contemporary America, women are the ones who are on display, and that's one reason why we are supposed to groom ourselves so aggressively and hang all our assets out there where everyone can see them. Men, on the other hand, are assumed to be the ones who are doing the looking, so straight men's fashion allows them to conceal their bodies. What seems 'feminine' about gay male fashion (we're not talking about drag here, which is a different thing) is the emphasis on revealing and accentuating the body. And what seems weird and sort of scary to straight men about gay fashion is not *just* that it seems 'feminine,' but that it acknowledges the fact that the male body can be a sexual object too. Your average straight man looks at one of those guys on Queer Eye and thinks, "Jesus Christ, I don't want my ass stuffed into a sausage casing for all the world to stare at!" Well, that's cause your ass plays a whole different role in your self-image, identity, and sex life.

Again, the disclaimer: not all gay men are comfortable with gay fashion, and some straight men are very into displaying their own bodies (we might cite our friend Arnold Schwarzenegger). Everyone does these things differently. Stereotypes emerge because people in this country like everything labeled and put in a box, so whatever appears to be preponderant becomes an enforced norm. Real people are way more complicated than identity politics could ever allow for.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[Cheswick2.0]

37. I knew someone would come along and say this better than I could

The bottom line is: being "feminine" is not natural. The amount of work that most women have to go through to look "feminine" would probably shock you (unless you live with a woman who isn't shy about letting you watch the assembly process). The shaving, the waxing, the tweezing, the applications of creams and unguents and makeup...we opt out of a lot of that crap simply because we can. But from our POV, that doesn't mean we want to be men. We're just being what women are like *before* they put themselves through all this crap.


I knew someone would come along and say this better than I could. So I decided not to bother. Let me be person who states that many of us straight women feel the same way about make up (I wore way too much of it onstage over the years to care about wearing it now, though I do sometimes)and pantyhose. Highheels are horrible for your feet and back, I don't bother with them anymore either. Maybe I am not feminine. :shrug:

[liberalpress]

42. Great Post..

...but let me chime in as a straight man. Maybe the problem lies because of the discrimination many gays are sunbject to on a daily basis, but I often have a problem being myself around gays and other minorities. I always feel as if I'll say or do something that will offend.

I have a very "unique" personality... I'm loud, and kind of in your face. If you act like an idiot,, I'll tell you, and conversely, if I act like an idiot, I expect you to tell me. In other words if we can be honest with each other, and don't take ourselves too seriously, we'll have a blast together!

How can I get over my unease, and let you know that I acccept you as you are, and expect you to accept me as I am?

[Rowdyboy]

33. What a delightful thread...

I'm a 50ish gay man in a 15 year, monogamous relationship with someone a few years older. We're not into fem or drag-we're just best friends who sleep together and fool around (my ultimate, all-time fantasy).

Feminine men leave me mostly cold. If I wanted femininity, I'd go for the genuine article. I, personaly, like to drink beer and eat Mexican food with my best guy friend on Sunday afternoon and then go home to lounge around and watch some videos...

[Plaid Adder]

40. Once again, for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/queer/etiquette/intro.html

The Fine Art of Being Come Out To: A Straight Person's Guide to Gay Etiquette

I wrote it in 1996 and a lot of it is outdated, but it's still useful as a basic primer.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[Booberdawg]

36. Thoughtful thread ..

Too bad Sapphocrat and foreigncorrespondent are not available for a couple weeks. They would have been good for thoughtful responses.

[roguevalley]

38. the sexuality spectrum is very long and most of us fall

along it some place, with a few hard and fast at each end:
straight and gay. its enormously diverse but there are
sort of sub groups that have their own thing. I remember
the first time I met a bull dyke -a friend of a friend- I
almost hyperventilated. Purple silk jumpsuit, purple vampire
like cape and army boots. Huge cleavage. <G>

Was an eye opener. The more you are around people with all
their incredible diversity, the better a person you become.
The thing that makes me proud to be a dem and a liberal is
that this was asked in great curiosity from a person who
wants to really know and learn something. The 'other guys'
don't want to know period.

Hugs, honey. Peace comes from asking. Peace and tolerance
and progress.

RV

[rjbcar27]

41. Excellent thread.

Straight guy here with plenty of gay friends.

Thoroughly absorbing thread with some beautifully thought out responses.

Thanks! :-)

[radwriter0555]

43. GENDER IDENTITY. It's how we see ourselves on the lines of our

male/female poles.

Make a line, put male at one end, female on the other. Make a mark in the middle. The middle would be genuine androgeny, where someone has a perfect blend of male and female characteristics.

We all have differing levels of feminine and male characteristics. Some chicks are more female, whether straight or gay, and some men are less butch, whether straight or gay. Interestingly enough being gay has little to do with gender identity, that thing confusing you, about chicks looking like guys and guys with lisps (and we love them for it).

For some gay men, it's FUN to be a lisping little skippy! That behavior attracts attention from other gay men who are either the same, or who desire a more femininely characterized male (partner). It's more theatre than anything else. Trust me, when they have a family dinner with Aunt Mathilda in Minnesota, they butch up in a HURRY.

For some gay women, well, hell, all I can figure is they have VERY low self esteem and poor fashion sense. Why a chick lets herself get fat and uglies herself up, I honestly DON'T know.

Drag queens are ARTISTS. They take gender bending to a whole new level. It's not about sexuality or dating, it's a true art, and something utterly amazing.

Transvestites and cross dressers are those men (and rarely women) who feel more comfy when they're dressed as their inner gender identity.

How do I know this (and sooooo much more) about our gay communities? worked for the government of the gayest city in California for MANY years, and count hundreds of gay and lesbians folks as my closest, most wonderful and dearest friends.