A serious ?...Why do our schools stink?

[rasputin1952]

Today, I was listening to NPR and there was a discussion on education, vouchers, headstart, etc.

Most of the usual suspect situations were present; not enough money, poor teacher skills, overcrowded classrooms, failing schools, increasing violence, etc; ad nauseum.

I am a product of several different aspects of education, I went to Public School in NY, I went to a private Protestant elementary school, Public HS in NY, (Jamaica High, for those of you out there in the East). My point is, I received an education. I can read, write, do math, speak, think, and know how to research things to get answers.
So....What happened?

Before me, I see bright children, with somewhat bleak futures because the system has broken down. But WHY did it break down? I suppose all of the "answers" that pop up from time to time, have some validity; but there has to be more than just "the usual excuses".

Where did the "basics" go? Those notorious "3R's" that are so fundemental to education couldn't just disappear. And the excuse of poor teachers won't hold water either, these are highly educated people trying, in desperate times, to educate our youth.

Has anyone out there any real answers to this breakdown? Better yet, what are substantial solutions to the problems?

I know all of the "excuses", but are there any educators out there that can offer me some ammo to combat the 'dumbing down of America'?

Thanks!

Ras :kick:

[rwheeler31]

1. retired teacher

Why on earth would corporate america want an educated public?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

2. Bingo.

All our schools are designed to train people to be productive worker bees.
Fear this.
Do that.
Listen to him.
Don't believe her.
Sit down.
Shut up.



That's why.

[rasputin1952]

8. But then why are there so many....

intelligent "thinkers" here at DU? We don't sit down, shut up and just work; we think! We try to change things. There are drones, but there sure aren't many here.

[redeye]

41. It's always been the case

so it can't be the sole reason.

[rasputin1952]

5. I see your point...

n/t

[prolesunited]

3. Both of your responses are spot on

There's an excellent article in this month's Harper's that tackles this subject. It looks at the origins of the U.S. public education system and how it was designed to segregate and control the masses while nurturing compliant consumers.

I highly recommend picking this up or checking it out at the library.

[rasputin1952]

6. Will do...

thanks!

[prolesunited]

15. Here's the title and author

AGAINST SCHOOL
How public education cripples our kids, and why
by John Taylor Gatto

And here's his Web site
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

[rasputin1952]

18. Thanks again....

I'll get on that tomorrow.

[NashVegas]

38. Quick Excerpt from the Article Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=117&topic_id=425

[pippin]

79. here's the article

http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

[rasputin1952]

88. Thank you...

I have downloaded the text to disc. there is much to be discussed in this.

:hi:

[Davis_X_Machina]

4. Because we have public schools...

...we have the schools the public wants.

[rasputin1952]

7. AH....but we really have the schools...

that those in charge want. They seem to go unchallenged, and for the life of me, I can't understand why.

[carpetbagger]

9. Remember "Why Johnny Can't Read" (1955)

Or Blackboard Jungle? Complaining about the quality of schools is a timeless phenomenon. The schools are doing as good or bad a job as they always have. Politicians are still getting brownie points for asking why Johnny can't read. It's true that the Texas system has been a disaster, but things like that always go in and out of style. If you don't believe me, read up on the Lancasterian/Jeffersonian divisions.

There are a few things that make it more difficult today to get well-rounded students. Money and the lack of humanities education is a hurt. TV is a big hurt, both as a suckhole of hours, as well as a source of progressive inattentiveness. In defense of myself and the rest of Gen X, I'll point out that the schools had a full decade to prepare for it, even by the time we got there, and they did nothing. We got Sesame Street, the Electric Company, Schoolhouse Rock, and then it all just ended. Add to that the fact that children in the last 15 years don't get out and play, and we're toast.

If there's one curricular change, it's that the rise of science as a central element of our lives has not been followed by any rational changes in education. We're still teaching high school science from a theoretical viewpoint, or teaching archaic trivia. Our students spend their time in biology learning about the weird parts of weird animals, but very little about physiology or ecology. The physical sciences are just another year of algebra, only with problems relating to that topic. Nothing about industrial chemistry, toxicology, energy, engineering, or any of the other things that people who do not become scientists would need to know to work, live, and vote.

[rasputin1952]

19. Excellent reply, thanks...

you've opened up a few more pathways for me to investigate.

I will agree that there is a direct correlation between children playing together, and social positives. You justcan't get that from PS2 etc..

[bbernardini]

10. Parents

Not all of them, no. Not by a long shot. But stupid parents who are out to make their children's lives as simple as possible have managed to harass, intimidate and sue public education into a shell of its former self. Administrators who are only out to make themselves look good so they can move to higher paying positions don't help either (I've witnessed this one first hand).

[rasputin1952]

20. Excellent points!...

but are these really 'stupid' parents, or are they just overburdened by so much in thier lives?

I will be the first to admit that there are some pretty brain dead adults running around, but I think it may be more of a 'time' factor.
But if we lose time for our kids, we lose everything.

[democracyindanger]

Because we treat our teachers like we pay them

Like crap.

I was fortunate enough to go to Portland (OR) public schools during a brief period where they were well-financed and had all sorts of progressive programs. I have friends that are teachers in Ptown now, and they all tell me how lucky we all were. Portland schools are hurting badly. I think it was a Portland suburb where parents sold blood as a fundraiser a few months back. Seriously.

Schools work when you give teachers freedom and respectable salaries.

[rasputin1952]

21. I certainly agree here...

and it is a shame that there had to be a blood drive to gets funds, that's bordering on barbaric!

The teachers need to be paid well, for many reasons; one of them being that they spend some of their own money just to keep their classes running. Teahchers and students need the tools to learn, and that comes from funding. Those that run school boards need to be tarred and feathered if they don't keep up the standards.

[TrogL]

11. The Religious Right

The religious right wants everybody in parochial religious schools indoctrinated in their shit, so they're doing their level best to destroy the public system by crippling its funding. Hence, the schools cannot afford proper teacher pay, so the good teachers quit. They also can't afford to k eep up the school infrastructure. As the city of New York found out, people in crappy infrastructure rebel. The school can not afford security guards to maintain order.

Get the people to stop voting the RRR's onto school board, or at least expose the fundies during the campaign for the fascists they are.

[rasputin1952]

22. Excellent point...

Ralph Reed made it a point to go into school boards with the fundy approach. They should be exposed and voted out. The district should have people on school boards that truly care about CHILDREN and education, not indoctrination.

[sangha]

12. They don't stink

Most of our schools are pretty damn good. Unfortunately, there are some, too many, that are not, and even more unfortunately, most of those schools are in poor areas.

[rasputin1952]

23. I can accept part of that argument...

especially about poorer districts. It is the State Ed boards that should be re-allocating money to aid those in poorer neighborhoods.
Every time they try that, they get shouted down by radicals that don't think poor people should have an education. A sad case if ever there was one.

[LittleApple81]

13. IMHO is a combination of factors

We want the schools to be all things for all people. Teachers must handle all types of students (needing remedial help, middle of the ground, bright students) equally efficiently. The extra help provided for "special students" is not enough. Before, students with special needs were marginalized and they were not included in the evaluation of how schools were doing.

The American public does not respect or give stature to people that dedicate their lives to teaching (not a measure of success). Salaries are low, driving the smartest potential teachers away from the teaching professions. Some very bright people still decide to teach, many times at the expense of their own futures.

Many parents have given away their responsibility to educate their children. Needing to have two salaries to survive (or have the nice extra things that you would not be able to afford otherwise) does not allow many of them to dedicate time to their children's life.

TV has made it easier for many parents not to pay attention to their children. But parents using schools as a babysitting agency want that agency to perform their duties and make sure their students graduate.

Finally, the I-am-OK you-are-OK, anything you do is excellent (so that your self-esteem does not suffer) has created an environment where people feel entitled to get something for nothing. But in their hearts of hearts they know that what they are getting is not really worth much.

In some communities parents have too much influence on the curriculum (for example, the way books are chosen in Texas and California, the two biggests textbook markets in the country--which influences what is offered in other states), Books are huge and HEAVY (children are getting bad backs from carrying them) with pictures and big print and LIGHT in content. If you just made photocopies of the material that is of any relevance in those books and had the children carry those photocopies instead of the books, the backpacks would be very light.
Besides, the content reflects the prejudices of both Texas and California...need I say more?

There are other factors but these are all I can mention right off.

[rasputin1952]

24. There is great truth in what you say...

especially where you mention parents giving away the educations of their children. Education is not school alone; parents need to play a huge part in the upbringing of the child. By making education a multi-party system, we can achieve the desired results.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. It's heretical to say so but

local control is part of the problem.

Tight-fisted communities with dumb residents (or residents who think of the local children as "not their responsibility" because they're poor or dark-skinned) get poor schools.

Generous communities with well-educated and/or upwardly mobile residents who see the students as "our children" get good schools.

Portland is a sad case of a city with a well-educated and largely liberal population whose school system is being starved by the rural Repiggies in the state legislature. (I just moved away from there six weeks ago.) It doesn't help that some of the most extreme Repiggies see Portland as the embodiment of evil, with its mass transit, domestic partnership benefits, Democratic-dominated city government, the only significant African-American population in the state, and its frequent anti-Bush (Jr. and Sr.) demonstrations.

[rasputin1952]

26. I have been called many things in my time...

but "politically Correct" is not one of them. I agree with you, and not necessarily because of skin color...but rather because of the way 'poor' people are treated in general. The tight fisted bastards need to be heaved from office, and be made to pay back everything they ever got from thier their ill gotten positions.

Bujt that takes GUTS and time. Two items sorely lacking in society today. I have fought with City, County and school officials; and I've won! Simply because I've domne my homework and demanded answers to questions I and others have. Ususally all it takes is one person to start people to come out of their shells. Fight them, and they flee!

[LWolf]

16. They don't. And if you don't want a rant, don't read any further.

There are plenty of problems in the system. The problems aren't addressed because we are too goddamned busy chasing our tails, patting our heads, rubbing our tummies, making contradictory, physically impossible things happen for the sake of documentation and compliance, tearing our hair out, lining the pockets of numerous bush corporate buddies, and furthering the PNAC agenda for education; failure, vouchers, and privatization, to have time to address any real needs or problems.

And rasputin1952, no offense intended, but after the hellish first week of school I just endured, I may forget that I am a pacifist and knock the next person's teeth who says we "stink" out with a goddamned baseball bat. Or just flip him/her off and go find a beer.

You want real answers? Public schools reflect society. Look for breakdowns in the fabric of society for roots to some of the problems. A blame everyone else and don't take responsibility attitude. A society that spends too much time working and doesn't have any "quality" time left to offer when the chores are all said and done. An economy that drains people; parents working too hard to keep the wolves from the door to have time and energy for their kids. People who value the stuff more than the time. People who have kids who don't really like spending time with kids. People who value tv and electronic games and organized, supervised activities more than they do books, ideas, or conversation.

And a one-size-fits-all system that perpetuates itself even without help from George Bush. And the incredibly insane, corrupt, idiotic crap we put up with in the form of NCLB, high-stakes testing, scripted curriculums, corrupt statistics, and more that the general public swallows like pablum from the right-wing that knows better than they do.

How about a bunch of administrators that have never taught and couldn't teach tomorrow if they had to? You know who evaluates the teachers at my school site? The principal. He was a coach. He's never spent 10 minutes responsible for the academic education of a classroom full of young people. How about my assistant principal? Ditto. He was a school nurse. How about your local school board? Anybody there ever done the job? The state board of ed? George W. Bush? What do you think? Of course, they know more about my job than I do.

How about the concerted legislative effort to turn us into a nation of stepford teachers turning out stepford students?

Basics???? The U.S. curriculum used to be a mile wide and and inch deep. These days it's more like 10 miles wide and a quarter of an inch deep. Keep shoving it down their throat asap, so even if they throw it back up, you've given it to them before you're hit with the TEST. We couldn't possibly give them less to do and allow them the time to do less better. Not the teachers or the kids.

You want substantial solutions?

1. Repeal/abolish all high-stakes testing programs at the federal and state level.

2. Use what we know about brain development to write a very few broad, general, developmentally appropriate benchmarks for students nationally. No long state laundry lists, either.

3. States can test, or not test, at their discretion. But the scores are a tool to help teachers and families measure progress, not a weapon to hold over anyone's head.

4. Shift the arrogant, competition-driven american mindset. Who the hell cares if your kid read in the womb? Why is it so important for your kid to be smarter than someone else's? As long as we are constantly comparing kids so we can push ours ahead of someone else's and pound our chests about how superior our kids/schools/whatever are, there will always be kids left behind. The only way to not leave any behind is to cut the competition crap and focus on the individual. If the individual is making steady progress, that's fucking success, ok? I don't care if Johnny doesn't read 4 grade levels above his classmate. I just care that Johnny reads, and that he'll continue to learn, grow, and read more complex material every week.

5. Here's an idea. Politicians could ask actual families and teachers...the stakeholders in education, what broad, general, laws, rules, etc. need to be in place. Don't tell us how to follow the rule. That we follow it is good enough. There may be countless ways to achieve. Which way we choose is our business; we're the one in the classroom doing the job. Butt out.

6. You want good teachers? How about reasonable expectations, respect, and pay? How about if I don't have to buy my own pencils, crayons, books, etc. to comply with legislation? How about if you pay me what it's worth when I spend $35,000 dollars and years and years of my life getting the credential, and another 10% of my wages a year on supplies, and anywhere between 50 -70 hours each week working? How about some appreciation and support instead of mandates and threats that aren't supported?

7. You want us to actually be able to achieve any of those mandates? Pay up. Pay for the materials. Give us the facilities, materials, and paid hours it takes to get the job done. If you're not willing to pay for it, don't demand it. Ask me what I need to get the job done, and make sure it's there when I need it.

I'm sure I could come up with more, but I'm on the tail end of a 12 hour work day. A day that included teaching, parent conferences, and mentoring colleagues who showed up in my room this week in tears or in a rage or ready to quit. I'm going to get a beer.

[LittleApple81]

17. Like your rant. n/t

[rasputin1952]

27. Thank you for the rant LWolf...

I am in complete agreement with you. I will use, (if you don't mind), much of what you have said, at the next SB meeting, next week. Concrete solutions are what is needed.

I understand what teachers go through, and I want to be in there fighting all the way to change things and alleviate some of that pressure. What you have said has hit home, and I truly appreciate it; I need all the ammo I can get.

Most of the time, these buffoons on school boards ramble on about inane resolutions that serve no purpose. I want action!
I want respect for those we entrust educating our children. I want them fully funded. I want them to be safe and have the time to deal with the kids, to teach the kids, to help make them more intelligent citizens.

I am in your corner, and I do not give up.

Thanks again!

[LWolf]

39. Good!

If enough people out there like you are fighting for us, and don't give up, we can save public ed from the graveyard. We can make it what it ought to be.

You can use anything I said; good luck!

[rasputin1952]

46. Thank you!.....

We'll beat these fools yet....and get education back to those who tirelessly work to educate our kids!

Hard as they may try, the cannot fight the truth, one voice can start a rally.

:bounce:

[LWolf]

72. Oops.....

On edit, if you use something I said with the SB, please delete the profanity!!

;-)

[rasputin1952]

73. Gotcha!....

n/t

[JackDragna]

33. You brought up one of my big pet peeves.

I'm a teacher-in-training right now and I'm baffled by how much of American education is learning a million different useless facts about a subject rather than gaining any real understanding of the subject. All the U.S. seems to care about are kids that know a good deal of facts but can't actually think worth a damn.

[rasputin1952]

37. Precisely!...

Kids are filled with 'facts', but are left without the ability to rationally figure out a problem.

Where is the analytical association that goes with problem solving and searching for answers?

Simple situation here: If water is 2 atoms of Hydrogen and 1 atom of Oxygen, since there is more Hydrogen than Oxygen; why is there any free oxygen? Shouldn't all of it have bonded to H to become water, till there was no O left? There is an answer, (kind of obviously, elsewise there would be no aerobic life on the planet), but how does one figure it all out?

If you ask long enough, and search hard enough, the answer is out there, but if I was just told this 'matter of factly', I would never have persued the question to a viable answer.

[LWolf]

40. An important point:

"All the U.S. cares about..." In order to change it, we have to change our values.

After 20 years, I'm cynical. I ask myself why, and I don't like the answers I see.

Rote learning of facts and procedures without understanding lead to a population of dependents. Voters who are dependent on "leaders" to do their thinking for them. They grow up to have kids in public schools; they want schools for their kids to be comfortingly familiar; "They didn't do it that way when I was in school" is a common fear/complaint.

The kids who were the most successful in the one-size-fits-all rote system are the ones who remember it fondly, and come back to be the next generation of teachers, perpetuating what "worked for them" but not for plenty. Those of us who don't fit that mold usually give up and change careers within the first 5 years. The fact that I'm still here makes me too stubborn for my own good, and explains the frustration level.

We need to value independent thinking. There are plenty of ways to accomplish tasks, from the simplest to the more complex. We have to give kids the tools and teach them more than one way to do things, more than one perspective, more than one way to look at and think about things. Of course, if we are busy drilling, killing, testing, and reciting standards, we don't have time in the school day for thinking.

Welcome to the profession, JackDragna. A couple of suggestions: get active and communicate about the situation. Help elect some legislators who see their role as supporting rather than blaming education. Be an instrument of change, or get out while you can. Before you are one of the highly qualified, caring, professional people walking around school in rage, frustration, fear, and tears.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. great rant!

[LWolf]

71. Why thank you, NSMA!

One of these days I'm going to drive south to meet up with you. Some day when you left your hood at home. :evilgrin:

[Generic Other]

53. Good post!

And they wonder why teachers are cranky.

That first week is always a killer, LWolf. But you know if you can survive that one, you can make it to the end of the year.

I have been a teacher for a whole lot of years. And I hear people criticize us all the time, but not to my face. The students I have taught only rarely blame me for their failings. Most have been overgenerous in their praise and grateful for my efforts on their behalf.

Only the rightwing seems to hate us with rabid passion. They force textbooks on teachers that distort or gloss over the truth, they constantly belittle both teachers and students over arbitrary and statistically worthless test score data, they defend being taught what to think vs. learning how to think. They siphon off education dollars to fill the pockets of consultants, think tanks, administrators, and educational software companies like Neil Bush's Ignite.

Meanwhile, every teacher I know buys dictionaries and books, and other basic school supplies out of their own pocket (not tax deductable). We can't even declare the cost of a computer. Do you know how long it takes to collect enough used books to have one for every student in the class?

And elementary school teachers collect clothes and provide food as well. It's like working in a third world nation depending on hand-outs to keep the mission school operating.

And while we spend a billion dollars a week occupying another country, our own children's futures isn't worth a dime.

[Generic Other]

64. Caution Bad English teacher at Work!

"Our children's futures isn't worth a dime"?

See what Bush has done? Even I'm starting to sound like a moran.

[rasputin1952]

74. Although I am far from an educator...

I am sympathetic to all that is happening, and am trying to change things.

At the local Shopko every year, just before school opens, they have some really great deals on school supplies. I realize this is not much, but I always buy a bunch of stuff and put the bags in the basket set up near the front door. The purchased items are distributed equally to all in need throught he school system. I generally buy the usual pencils, pens, notebooks, paper, crayons, markers, folders, etc. Occasionally, I can get deals on dictionaries and thesaurus' and other commodities. I am far, very far, from wealthy; but I feel it is a responsibility we all share.

Thank God, there are a lot of people out there that think like that. Like I said, it may not be much, but when added together, it makes an impact.

:hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

59. LWolf, I think you should run for congress

I really do. If politicians re going to interfere in education then we should be actively electing good educators to higher office.

[Generic Other]

65. I second that!

Not that my recommendation will open any doors for you! Still, you have the right message!

[LWolf]

70. Heh heh

I'll have to pass that one on to my son, who was demanding that I find a new job because of the abuse he perceives in public ed.

I don't know that I'd make a good politician. I have a really hard time with compromise. I am an active voice within my school, my district, and my community. Just as I logged on to DU tonight, I was thinking about contacting the president of our tiny little dem club and having a conversation...she is a recently elected school board member. She did an observation in my classroom last spring, along with a pack of other people; my classroom has been a "demonstration classroom" for my school for a few years. People come in and out and watch, ask questions, etc., and hopefully take away something good.
That's where I belong; with students. I'm at my best then. Anyway, to change anything at this point we have to work from the top down; that's where all the mandates come from. I want to get started with my local group to support Davis and oust Bush in '04.

I have a few people in mind for Rod Paige's job in '04 though.

Thanks for the plug!

[SmileyBoy]

25. Cause the lunch lady is always serving up horse testicles???

Maybe??:shrug:

Just trying to lighten up the mood...;-)

[rasputin1952]

28. Come to think of it...

there's been an upsurge in geldings here in NE for a couple of years....hmmmmm. Maybe you've got something there.

[SmileyBoy]

32. Like that Simpsons episode:

The one where Lunch Lady Doris needed to prepare the horse testicles for lunch due to the latest budget cutbacks:

"More testicles means more iron!!"

[rasputin1952]

35. LOL...

made me think of Schwarzenegger and the: "I'm going to Pump Up Sacramento"!


Watch out CA, there are only so many ways you can disguise horse testicles!

[DS1]

29. Why do our schools suck? Pride.

Occam's Razor strikes again!

My kids are teh smart! My kids aced their first math test! <- His kids aced a ridiculously easy math test that would be laughed out of the classroom in most other developed countries.

Don't teach more, lower the standard, it's the American way.

/teh typo on purpose

[dofus]

30. what really matters.

ETS has attributed 90 percent of differences in school
performance to (in descending order):

1. Number of parents at home;
2. Number of days absent from school;
3. Number of hours spent watching TV;
4. Quality and quantity of reading matter at home;
5. Amount of homework done.

QUESTION: Which of these will ANY education reform
reform?

QUESTION #2: Oh, really?

------------------------------------------------------

America is widely regarded as having the best colleges
in the world.

That can be measured by the awards from graduate work.
These usually come in the form of big bucks from the
marketplace (ideas for biotech or high tech). It might
also come in the form of international prizes. Nobel
prizes are but one example, and America has led every
other nation in those, since the end of WWII.

America is also widely regarded as having shitty primary
and secondary schools. This is often illustrated with
some astounding anecdote, highlighting geographical or
language ignorance. It is "backed up" with questionable
stats, ranking performance on standardized tests for
several nations. No attempt is made to "normalize" for
differences in WHO might be attending school in a given
grade in a given society.

QUESTION #3: How is it possible for the students from
such "shitty" primary schools to emerge 4-8 years later
from postgraduate programs, as internationally regarded
scholars?

QUESTION #4: If you think these 2 facts are
contradictory, what SEEMS to be the hidden agenda here?

[JackDragna]

34. The problem is that it's not contradictory.

We have a great university system, true. It should be noted, however, that many students in American universities have no business being there. Grant programs and the like let students with 2.0 GPA's get into state colleges. As for our high number of postgrads, we'll always have enough smart kids to populate those programs. There are an increasing number of kids, however, that don't go to college or manage to muddle though college with an unacceptable level of literacy, math and critical thinking skills.

[rasputin1952]

36. Just think of the current prez...

"Proof that a 'C' student can be president".

Sure, if you have the connections and cash to get into a Univ like Yale.

While not trying to use levity here, I honestly believe this is the stupidest president we've ever had. Not just intellectually lazy, mind you, but downright stupid.

In the mean time, there are individuals out there that might be denied higher education, that really could benefit from it. I agree that there are far too many 'professional students', but without basic education, with realistic studies, English, math, science, geography; instead of worrying about 'self-esteem', condoms, and other esoteric 'subjects', perhaps we would be better off.

To me, higher education is something that should benefit everyone; knowledge kept is knowledge wasted. It must be distributed in honest and as equally as possible. One does not necessarily have to attend Medical school to benefit from what was taught to another.

[redeye]

42. Well...

...the USA has Harvard and Yale and Princeton, but it also has 3000 other universities, most of which are absolute shit. The few tens of American world-class universities are so because the USA has large enough a population to allow a lot of good universities and because the really good American universities attract a large number of international students in a virtuous circle historically caused by the flight of European intellecutals in general and German intellectuals in particular to the USA in the 1930s.

[Ellen Forradalom]

55. I went to an 'absolute shit' land-grand college

Many of my professors had self-esteem issues with working there. The lines "If this were a real college.." or "In the college I went to" got old real fast. I finally told one of them that some of us are trying to get an education here, so stop complaining and teach, or get a job flipping burgers.

[redeye]

76. And your point is? (n/t)

[FlaGranny]

44. My boys went

to what are considered "shitty" primary schools. Now, one has a Masters and the other his Bachelors and they are both professionals.

I don't argue that schools shouldn't be improved, but a lot of the problem comes from a child's attitude toward learning, and most of that comes from parents. An intelligent child with interested parents can get a good education in public schools.

The most important thing in educating a child is somehow coming up with a child who is interested in learning. There are so many parents who either don't have the time or the inclination. On the other hand, we have many, many students in public schools who are successful - we don't hear much about those kids.

I wish I knew all the answers.

[rasputin1952]

47. You obviously knew most of the answers!....

Congtats on the kids, and keep fighting for the rest of our youth.

:loveya:

[FlaGranny]

56. Well thanks,

I appreciate that. I know I did something right. It took a lot of work with one of them, and the other just breezed through, but they both wound up as "achievers." My father taught me to think about things like science and nature and, in turn, I taught the kids. They knew about solar systems before kindergarten. They were discussing infinity and the universe with me when they were 8 or 10 years old. Now, they are the ones who usually teach me.

When I see the difference in my own kids, one easily going through school, and the other needing extra help and encouragement, I realize that the "difficult" one may not have succeeded in life without the extra effort.

I don't know what the answer is, but I believe that teachers and parents are the people with the best answers. Teachers should be paid more and listened to more. Poor teachers should be fired and good teachers rewarded. I don't know what the heck to do about poor parents, though.

[LWolf]

81. You've got one of the answers.

There are as many reasons why kids don't learn as there are kids. When we talk about the quality of education, we have to look at all of those reasons. What's going on at school is part of the picture. Another big part of that picture is culture/society/family values. Those are set before the kids ever get to school.

Improving what happens at school is one answer. Improving what happens at home is another answer. Changing the way learning is defined and valued in our society is another answer. There are many answers, and we need all of them!

[Porcupine]

31. We don't treat schools with respect.....

If you look at a high school built in the 1930's through the 50's you will be looking at what was probably one of the better buildings built in that town for that period. They were temples to education and they looked like it. A high school teacher earned enough to support a family in modest comfort by himself.

Look at schools now. The buildings are shabby and the teachers can't afford to live anywhere near them. In any suburban high school the kids drive better cars than the teachers can afford. Nobody demands respect from the students towards the teacher.

We know how to build and run good public schools. There are many examples out there. It's not cheap. Schools need respect to function.

[redeye]

43. Why do they deserve any?

Schools, public and private, have always been factories aiming at stifling creativity and critical thinking and providing cheap day care for children and teenagers. Even when the school buildings were great for their time, the school system was oppressive in its nature.

[rasputin1952]

48. I agree wholeheartedly...

we need to invest in our infrastructure. All we get from the "Pro's" that cann't find a bathroom when needed is more tripe about how horrible everything is....Well then...CHANGE IT! That's why they are there, and if they don't, let them live under a bridge like the trolls they are.

[mitchum]

45. Administration is the #1 problem

Teachers are not the villains. Most of them are idealists and truly dedicated. However, administrators are , for the most part, perfect examples of mediocre bureaucrats who are only concerned with treading water for 20 years.

[rasputin1952]

49. Your point is well taken...

as it should be. Administration, and I really don't care what "kind" of administration, has the sole responsibility of self preservation. This leads to stagnation, and eventual downfall.

There are ways to get rid of these people, but the journey is arduous.
I recall an administrator back in AZ that kept telling school board members and PTA members how important he was; he had 11 degrees, he knew how to 'deal with officials', you know the usual clap-trap junk self promoting boneheads foist out uipon an somewhaty fearful populace. But I got his butt in a bind.

During a school board meeting, I went to the microphone and simply asked, "If you can do all of this stuff you say you can, why haven't you? You are lying to everyone here, including yourself, and I'm calling on you to put up, or get out!" He was gone 3 weeks later after 14 years in the 'system'; the people revolted, it took a voice, just one voice. Never underestimate the courage you posess; never overestimate the individual you have to take on.

:bounce:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. I am not an educator but one point I would like to make

Is that traditional education has abandoned and underfunded education in the arts, particularly music.

Music IS a way of learning. The guitar is VERY geometrical, piano and scales tap into an area of the brain not reached by other cognitive learning methods.

Music has become the idiot bastard stepchild in the field of education and has much to offer.

[bbernardini]

57. Preach on, brother and/or sister!

I'm a music teacher, and I have seen children who have difficulty succeeding in other areas excel in music. This confidence then spreads to other subjects. Countless studies show the benefits of music in a child's education. Unfortunately, the only study people want to hear about is how many dentists out of 5 recommend Trident.

[rasputin1952]

58. Alas NSMA, leave it to you to bring out ...

thoughts of my first real girlfriend. She was going to NYU at the age of 17, a brilliant girl with the happiest eyes I had ever seen.
She graduated from NYU early, went on to get a Masters in Art. (Yes, she painted too, and very well). She became a teacher of Art in the NYC school system and prospered. A tear fills my eye when I think of what I lost so long ago.

She introduced me to great art, minimal art, classical music, ideology that was to frame my future being. Together we learned the beauty of the natural world; the music, the motion, the unison that simply, exists.

Now, so I will not fray upon your nerves anymore...I will get to my point about your post. You are correct in observing that the arts have been bastardized and sublimated. For all of the languages, forms of gov'ts, religions, races, either of the sexes, etc....there are three things that are universally known instantaneously, and transcend all: tears, a smile/laugh, and music. All humans can relate to these items without prompting.

Today, there are far too many tears; not enough smiling and laughter; but the music goes on, and for that we may all smile once again.

Thank you for your insightful post. Far too often, we never realize what we've had, till it's gone.

:loveya:

PS: You are one of the best educators we have at DU!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. Rasputin and bbernardini

Thanks so much for the kind words. I hardly regard myself as an educator except to the degree that we all are..but to the true dedicated educator who pays their dues I am afraid that might be a bit of an insult.

What makes me who I am are the people who educated ME.

Insofar as music is concerned, the scales themselves are based on patterns. Also the quality of LISTENING is enhanced when one considers following (for instance) a bassline through a song.

There are so many ways that music expands the brain and TALKS to it that they are impossible to name.

[cosmicdot]

52. the effects of everything take their toll

schools are a microcasm of society

when I taught HS in the 70s, I'd think about that, and I'd figuratively look out at the world, and say to myself: OMG! we're in big trouble ...

our Friday football nights used to be big events ... 1000s would come out to support the team ... now, so many parents are still at work when the game begins or are just too damn tired after working long and hard all work, not to mention dealing with the rapid and mobile rat race ... I think about parents and their kids who rarely see each other in the a.m.; and, the p.m. is extremely limited ... what quality time?

economics are the base of so much

budgets were so limited that we were given one ream of paper per semester -- these were the days of the classic mimeograph machine ... I had to buy extra, plus stencils and transparencies for overhead projectors, and often my own audio-visuals

Perhaps we need (similarly with energy and the environment) a "Human on the Moon" scale project/approach.

Perhaps we need to find ways to reduce stress in our society ... businesses need to instill stability and develop long-term community ... we need to find ways to calm America down ... we need better land and population planning ...

we need to focus on building more stable neighborhoods and communities ... how many people could do their jobs out of the home so they have the flexibility to be home when the kids leave and come home, or if a parent needs to be at the school without having to use vacation or worry about having to ask off ...

Perhaps we should establish optimal school sizes and work to maintain them (that doesn't mean that extracurricular activities couldn't be on a larger community spirit scale, i.e. sports, with cooperative school events) ... perhaps high school levels should be in the 850 to 1000 range or smaller, just as an example ...

Some people who criticize teachers have no idea what it's like to be in a classroom and all it entails.

School design ... space designers ... city planners ... there are so many facets in working toward ideal conditions.

My 1-12 education was in a basically blue collar type of small town (30,000) ... we had excellent schools and teachers ... I'd say we were a model ... my Senior English teacher taught my Dad some 30 years earlier ...

of course, after the town merged with the adjacent county ... the county folks decided that their community deserved bigger budgets and better everything ... but, that's another story ...

[rasputin1952]

60. Thank you for this marvelous post...

you've been there/done that.

Like the other educators that have answered my query, you make stable recommendations on how to fulfill our obligations to our children.

As I've asked of another above, may I use some of your insight at the school board meeting next week? I aim to change things, not the world, but a part of it, and your observations can help in that fight.

Thank you again.

:hi:

[cosmicdot]

62. thank you and, please, feel free

we need the leadership to organize and to inspire the spirit ...(i.e.,using all the resources at our disposal, e.g. colleges and universities ... and, seeking best practices from all communities - locally, nationally or globally) ... necessary to make things happen ... we need a model community/state to show/lead the way ...

if you need further help, let me know

I see I have a typo and can't edit now ... "tired after working long and hard all week"

[fortyfeetunder]

54. Paradigm change

One thing I've noticed about the state of affairs in education (both public and private), is they are based on some outdated paradigms...

1) Lifetime employment on one career after graduation. The reality is the average person changes jobs at least 5-7 times in a career..
2) Expectation that -- every child lives in a nuclear family, one parent works a traditional 8 hour/day job and the other parent is a homemaker. The reality we have a growing number of single parent families, or children raised by someone other than their bio-parent (not including those who are legally adopted), or in today's dismal economy, those who are either working multiple jobs, unemployed or on the brink of poverty. But with this paradigm, every parent can come to a 6:30 PM meeting on a Tuesday night.
3) Vestiges of religious/political influences overshadow the work that must be done (Key examples: banned classroom and library books, creationism vs evolution refuses to die, and prayer in school).
4) A sense of community. Assumes people look out for each other..Today it's more like people are trying to tear each other apart through unnecessary competition and intent on accumulating material wealth.

[rasputin1952]

61. I agree...

especially when you get to the point of aquiring material wealth.

The wealth of our nation is not in the cars we buy, or the homes we acquire; the wealth of our nation is in our children, and we must take the time to nurture these people and allow them to think, to solve, to live.

Thank you for your insights.

:hi:

[Ellen Forradalom]

63. Define 'our schools'

Those two words comprise thousands of schools serving millions of children across our entire population. When we talk about 'the schools', are we all thinking of the same thing?

[rasputin1952]

67. You make an excellent point...

My initial post was made under the constant barrage of how the public school system 'stinks' and is falling apart.

It is my desire to get facts, analogies, anything I can use that can help, (besides the usual 'bashing' of someone or something).

Some schools are excellent, some are mediocre, I don't think any really 'stink'. However, since these are 'our' schools, via taxation and mandate, I believe it is in our interest to make these halls of learning, safe and functional.

We need to allow our children to solve problems by thinking through them. There are some constants, i.e., 2+2=4 that can be taught by rote; but education goes , (or at least should go), far beyond rote learning. We invest in these institutions, and we should expect a return.

:hi:

[kodi]

66. um, the student body?

actually it is the lack of parents spending time with their kids to instill discipline, study habits, and self-respect at home. (after all the teachers have the kids for 6 hours a day, the parents for 18.)

not all kids need it, some have it instinctually, but once a kid is in school the job of the teacher is to teach, not having to instill a level of civility, respect and manners that the kid should have been instructed in from birth.

but i recognize that parents who themselves lack these things can hardly be expected to pass it on to their offspring.

kids having kids is a very big problem.

i substitute locally K-12 and i can see in each grade kids who obviously get little attention and instruction by their parents on how to act in social situations and who set no standards for their children's behavior. the schools can not point their fingers at bad parents, so teachers keep their mouths shut about it fearing retaliation from the parents.

last year i overheard a parent scream at a middle school vice principle that his kid would never steal another child's property and in fact the former had done so, because the kid was caught red handed with the other student's stuff in his locker, but the parent did not want to hear that his child was a thief, so this big bad dude heaped curse words on a female vp. the male principle had to come in and calm down the father fearing he would go berserk. so you knew right well where the kid had learned his own behavior, his dad.

who the hell needs that for a job?

this is what drives teachers bonkers, that many parents do not back up the teachers in matters of disciplining their kids.

i was more afraid of what would happen to me if my parents had to be called in to the school about my behavior than what any teacher or detention would ever do to me.

[TheBigGuy]

69. how come our higher education is supposed to be so good?

Our K-12 system is supposed to be 'bad' while our colleges are supposed to be some of the best in the world.

What gives?

Seems to me that if our K-12 system really WAS that bad our colleges would be pretty bad too as they wouldnt have much to work with when the kids from the k-12 system go on to college..

[redeye]

77. "Our colleges" - try "the top 50 colleges in a nation with 3000 colleges"

There are 300 million Americans, which yields about 3-4 million high school graduates a year. Most tier-1 universities are pretty small, so assuming an average class size of 2,000, we won't be very far off the mark. IOW, we're talking about the top ~3% of the high school graduates in tier-1 colleges.

Conclusion: when a country has 300 million citizens, it can have 90+% idiots and still have a lot of geniuses.

[DEM FAN]

75. Because Somebody Farted.

:evilgrin:

[George_Bonanza]

78. Must find balance between old and new

I think a lot of today's educators are trying to be too "progressive" and abandoning old-time teaching methods. For example, I read of the ill-conceived "New Math", where instead of actually understanding why 7x7=49, you simply memorize it like a code. Problem is that when 7x8 comes up, you have no idea what to do, unless you memorized that as well. This is rote learning to the extreme. What's ironic is that rote learning seems like an old idea, doesn't it? At least that's the impression I got. But that's exactly what today's "forward-thinking" educators are trying to do. Another example is Whole Language. Instead of learning the basic building blocks of phonetics, which allows you to pronounce any unfamiliar word by looking at it, students were taught to recognize words as a code, and memorize the way it's said. So they could read CAT and pronounce it correctly, but could not do the same for AT if they did not see it before. Again, rote to the extreme. This is supposed to be a new idea? This sucks!

I read of another case where another "forward-thinking" teacher or school decided that instead of having students do the old timey thing of memorizing where nation were located, which is the only way to learn geography, they instead learned how to use compasses and navigate, therefore learning a "real world" skill. Problem is that those kids didn't know where England or Japan was. Stupid stupid stupid...

I believe the solution is mixing old and new education together. Keep the best of the old, and improve some with the new. But don't scrap it all together with some faddish bullshit education.

And of course, teachers don't get any respect anymore. It's society's fault. Our best and brightest should be instructed the next generation, but instead, more often than not, those who can't do teach, or so it seems. Today's college graduates, our cream of the crop, are not even thinking of teaching. Isn't the role of teacher supposed to go to the most qualified?

[LWolf]

80. Yes!

Too often, in education you're either black or white. Conservative or progressive. phonics or whole language. memorizing facts and procedures, or understanding them.

For those of us trying to maintain a balance, it can be a rough ride.

I am an avowed progressive educator. But that doesn't mean I leave anything behind. You need it all. So I want my kids to know letter sounds and patterns as well as to comprehend text. I want them to have memorized their basic arithmetic facts as well as understanding how and why it works. In the end, balance = common sense that seems to leave the room when politics get involved.

[pippin]

83. Where Are Parents In All of This?

No one has mentioned parents? Where do parents fit in when it comes making sure their children are well educated. I would say the majority of parents think they can just dump the whole responsibility onto schools. Every teacher will tell you about how difficult it is to get parents to come to parent teacher meetings, how very few parents are involved in homework, or at worse even know whether their kids are at school or not.


Behind every child who does well is a parent or parents who are involved at one level or the other with their kids. Studies have been done for example with Asian American kids who are notorious achievers. They are not necessarily smarter but what researchers have found is that parents (Asians value education) in every case coached, sat with or made sure kids did their homework.

Incidentally, while talking about placing a value on education: as someone who grew up in another country, I have found that there is a strange anti-intellectual, anti-education bias among a lot of Americans. Talk to average Americans and not a few will denigrate "egg heads," "nerds" or studious kids. There is therefore this mixed message they send to their kids: On the one hand they decry the state of education or insult people who are well educated, but on the other there is also the expectation that schools should be excellent and that kids should be high achievers. Go figure!

[LWolf]

86. I see the same.

A society that does not value the living habits that nurture learning. That places those habits low on the priority list, but still wants bragging rights over how smart their kids are. They want the bragging rights without spending the time and attention needed to earn them. And they are ready to dump the blame anywhere but on themselves.

We still have great parents who nurture ideas, thinking, conversation, language, curiosity, and enthusiasm for learning. They just get fewer every year.

[rasputin1952]

82. Thank you for your insightful post....

I am thinking along the same lines, especially since i've read so much from so many that lean in the same direction.

There are no easy solutions. Some rote learning is good, (multiplication tables, etc), but there has to be a mid-level through all of this. Since science and technology, are moving ahead so quickly it is imperative to keep pace. Yet, we cannot leave basic language skills behind in the wake of all else. This is a personal peeve I have, the destruction of the language. How can we go anywhere without a common language that cannot be understood by all? I have no problem with people using language as they see fit, but if you are trying to press your point, and you have no knowledge of basic skills or the desire to use those skills, you are going to lose.

Geography can only be learned by sight. It is fine to know that England exists, but where is it? I haven't been into an elementary school classroom in the past few years and seen an updated globe, some go back to the '50's! Maps of the US are scarce! A lot of kids think HA is just south of CA in it's own little sea that has a coffer dam around it!

Teachers need tools, and the need them quickly. They need to be allowed to do what they signed on to do, educate our youth. We, as citizens, have the responsibility to ensure that teachers get the respect they are due, the tools they need, they pay they EARN everday.

It is going to be a long road, but we've got to start, and now. All of this talk about 'vouchers', alternative education, etc., is nothing but smoke and mirrors. It is a way to avoid the responsibility of dealing with the problems we have, (something thios particualr admin is adept at).

I thank you again for your insight, and, with your permission, will use some of what you have said at the school board meeting next week.

:hi:

[redeye]

85. Huh?

The holistic method for learning to read is outlawed in the USA and many other countries.

[LWolf]

87. No it's not.

At least, not if by "holistic" you are referring to "whole language." It has certainly been discredited by some in the U.S. There are frameworks and standards that require explicit teaching of phonics. But I don't believe there is a law on the books "outlawing" it.

There are new laws that say you won't get your funding unless your grant application follows the Bush plan for reading...a big phonics push. So as far as funding goes, you won't get funded.

http://classes.csumb.edu/ED/ED616-01/world/readingdebate.html

http://www.ncte.org/wlu/

There are certainly many groups out there decrying the fact that they haven't yet "rooted whole language out" of public ed. And there is certainly a general misconception among the american public, and even educators, over what it really is. Here are the 9 beliefs supposedly common to whole language practitioners:

A holistic approach to the acquisition and development of literacy in all its aspects.

A positive view of all human learners.

A belief that language is central to human learning.

A belief that learning is easiest when it is from whole to part, when it is in authentic contexts, and when it is functional for the learners.

A belief in the empowerment of learners and teachers.

A belief that learning is both personal and social and that classrooms and other educational settings must be learning communities.

An acceptance of all learners and the languages, cultures and experiences they bring to their education.

A belief that learning is both joyous and fulfilling.

A belief in the developmental nature of learning which builds on learners' prior knowledge and experience.

I don't believe they've managed to outlaw all of these heineous practices yet, although I'm sure they're trying.

The instructional philosophy in conflict is the "whole to part" portion. Most of us who have not jumped on the worship/hate phonics or whole language bandwagon teach both part to whole and whole to part. We don't leave out either. We know that some kids learn one way, some another, and both have value.

A historical side note:

Most of the rhetoric you will hear about whole language vs phonics portrays whole language as some sort of new faddish thing, like "new math," which took us away from good old traditional phonics. Not so.

I learned to read with Dick and Jane in the 60s. That was "whole word" instruction. Whole-to-part and part-to-whole have been with us throughout the 20th century, and the pendulum is always swinging. 40s-60s, it was the "look-say" method. 70s - 90s, it was phonics only. In the 90s it swung back to whole language, but not for long, and phonics swung back. In reality, both are valid. Both are needed.

[rasputin1952]

84. I would like to take a moment here...

and thank each and every one of you who have read this thread. I offer a special thank you, for all who have responded, (yes, even the horse testicles and farting).

Of course, I would be remiss if I did not especially acknowledge the educators who have posted here. I know that you jobs are pretty tough, but I have the greatest respect for you; those that willingly take on the tough jobs are true heroes.

I will use many of the ideas I have read here in the School Board meeting next week. I want to compile the evidence and make an argument that cannot be refuted, and all of you have helped me in so many ways. Without the Internet, and especially this site, my task would have been virtually impossible. You have all been invaluable.

Now...Just to bore you; a little about my drive for this.

I am not a highly educated person. I am a HS drop-out, (earned GED in the Army though). I spent less than a quarter in college. I have become a 'self educated' individual. I read, I experiment, I problem solve...in essence, I THINK. I have an IQ of 146, but that means nothing to me, except that I am not using near of it as I could.
Much of what I have learned, I have learned from experience, (a tried and true teacher, btw).

I have spoken with people with degrees that paper the walls; but I have learned more having coffee with farmers and mechanics, in some cases.

Finally...unless this thread goes on a little longer; I would like you all to know that I appreciate your tolerance of my sometimes poor syntax, and typo's. Some of you, I have gotten to know rather well through this site, although I've never met any of you personally. I have nothing but the highest respect for all of you. As I have always said, since I came to DU: "You are the best people I've never met".

Thank you all!

:loveya: :grouphug: :kick: