Columbus had a map !

[KurtNYC]

So who drew it? And why did he think he was near Nova Scotia?

European explorers referred to earlier maps made before they set sail - contemporary accounts of Columbus, Diaz, Cabral, da Gama, and Magellan’s voyages are the evidence.

Nicolo da Conti as the intermediary between the Chinese and Europeans
The author relies upon the evidence given in his book and that recently found in the Fujian Palace (Admiral Zheng Ming’s evidence to Kunming Conference, 10 December 2002). In the Fujian Palace (discovered when extending Fujian International airport runway) are statues of Zheng He and his Admirals. Standing next to Zheng He and closer to him than his Admirals is a European mediaeval merchant - as evidenced by his clothes and hat. The merchant carries documents/maps. The most likely explanation is that this statue is of Nicolo da Conti who describes his passage from Calicut to China via Australia and who was in Calicut when Chinese fleet arrived in 1421. His statue resembles drawing in Illustrated Record of Strange Countries (1430)

http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/content.asp?EvidenceID=9

[trotsky]

1. Apparently Menzies' work is not without its critics...

http://www.kenspy.com/Menzies/
http://baheyeldin.com/pseudoscience/gavin-menzies-1421-china-discovers-the-world.html
http://hnn.us/articles/1308.html

A fascinating theory, but so far lacking in real evidence.

[DrWeird]

3. No smoking gun, but a large amount of circumstantial evidence.

So I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if somebody digs up a smoking gun on the issue.

[KurtNYC]

5. That he reaches too far in his details seems evident

but it doesn't disprove the bigger picture and the Nicolo DaConti connection.

Thanks to the mapping of the human genome, the evidence is pouring in that the Chinese had contact with many populations which Menzies alleges. Linguistic evidence is also being fleshed out.

[trotsky]

6. Chinese DNA in those populations should not be surprising.

Australian aborigines came from Asia, as did the early North American settlers via the land bridge during the last Ice Age.

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out either way.

[DrWeird]

7. Yes, but apparently its recent DNA.

That is, DNA that was introduced in the last few hundred years. Or at least according to what I've read. They can date that kind of thing you know.

[KurtNYC]

9. I turn to Menzies for his own defense

He added: "What nobody has explained is why the European explorers had maps. Who drew the maps? There are millions of square miles of ocean. It required huge fleets to chart them. If you say it wasn't the Chinese, with the biggest fleets and ships in the world, then who was it?"

Evidence is mounting on Menzie's side:

A Chinese explorer reached America 72 years before Columbus and circled the globe a century before Magellan accomplished the feat, according to a review of star positions in the 15th Century along with secret maps and other evidence.

http://www.space.com/spacewatch/navigation_china_020318.html

[On the Road]

11. Glad to See the Rebuttals

I've heard about them, but hadn't seen the actual articles.

It certainly looks as if Menzies jumped to unwarranted conclusions about the lighthoue in New England and the anchors off the California Coast. I will have look at 1421 again with a more critical lens.

However, I was also struck by how dismissive these historical critics were, and how their refutations touched on relatively minor points of support.

The reason I take the Chinese hypothesis seriously is that the evidence Menzies presents is on many fronts -- cartographic, genetic, historical, the distribution of plants and animals, and it provides the only reasonable explanation I know of for certain facts which have been long known and long debated.

Menzies may have used imagination in interpreting the Piri Reis map. It is not necessary to invoke the Chinese in explaining the Orinoco Delta or the compass rose off Patagonia. But the fact remains that the southeastern coast of South America was not explored by Europeans in 1513 when the map was drawn. Or that Columbus and Magellan claimed to have existing maps during their explorations or new territory.

Or the stone "road" offshore in the Bahamas, which in my mind is one of his most compelling finds and which up to now had no good explanation that I know of.

Menzies should have done more research and distingushed between good evidence and speculation. However, nothing that I have seen yet in the criticisms discredits his major claim. Maybe it will turn out to be another Chariots of the Gods. I want to look at the genetic evidence again.

[Bridget Burke]

2. I just started reading the book....

"1421, The Year China Discovered America" by Gavin Menzies. It appears to be really well done.

I've been interested in pre-Columbian voyages since reading Charles Michael Boland's "They All Discovered America" back in the early 60's. That little book reviewed all the old sailors' stories--when doubting Columbus's role was heresy. Then Norse ruins turned up in Newfoundland, & the whole story continues to become more complicated.

Oscar Wilde claimed America had been discovered several times, but it had always always hushed up. And it's said Columbus did a bit of research in Galway City. But the Chinese mounted really massive expeditions & went farther than a few monks in leather boats.

[papau]

4. A Fun discussion! - How does he deal with da Conti not mentioning such a

trip?

I liked "Longitude: Chinese map of all China dated 1137 carved in stone - longitude correct" since that was an idea that went from the West to to the East - at least in the stuff I read.

But it is a really neat idea with a lot of detail.

Should be a fun item to research.

Of course the Chinese got their maps from Alex the Great when he dropped a few off in India and Afghanistan - including those areas of Afghanistan now in China!

Those Greeks were amazing!

:-)

[miss_kitty]

8. I heard he got it from the Basques

who used to fish over off the east coast secretly. I also heard something about monks in Ireland...

[Bucky]

10. Here's an actual copy of Columbus's map

As you can see, he knew exactly where to find those Indians

[KurtNYC]

12. I like it

mystery solved.