Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

need help from puppy people...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » The DU Lounge Donate to DU
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:33 PM
Original message
need help from puppy people...
I adore my dog. He's 4 months old this week. But he can just be downright annoying in his demands for attention. I take him out for walks and play in the back yard, but he's still two weeks away from actually going out to dog parks or the beach (parvo shots requirement).

I can't just sit at the computer, or watch TV, or read, or cook dinner without putting him in his kennel. Now, he's FINE in his kennel. He goes in there on his own all the time. When I tell him to go in, he trots right in without complaint.

But is it possible to have him out and about without pawing me, licking me, nuzzling me, etc.?

I do adore him, and give him LOTS of attention. But he just doesn't understand that it can't be constant. Is this just a puppy thing he'll outgrow?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. He loves ya, Dookus
He'll grow out of it.. he's just a baaaabbby. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. With Jessie, who is also an attention hog, we used the command
Edited on Tue Oct-12-04 11:35 PM by MrsGrumpy
"Stop" with hand out, palm facing downward. We also taught her "lay down" and "stay" right off the bat. I'm sure he'll outgrow some of it, but I bet he'll always be delighted to see you. I think he'll be just fine...You'll miss the days. Okay, not really, but it sounded good! :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I suppose...
and I am totally in love with him, and I guess it's expecting a lot for him to understand when loving is appropriate and when it's not.

He's great with Sit, but he HATES Down. He really does. I work with him daily and Down is the one command he just resists.

I know I'll miss these days... but dammit, I'm just TIRED. It's been three weeks since I've had a decent night's sleep (I know, the mothers here are playing the world's smallest violin) and he's TRULY a great dog and his training is going well... but it's hard that he needs so much attention.

The best times are late in the evening when he's tired and just lays next to me on the couch. I love that. But all day long, he mouths (I've taught him not to chew on me), paws and nuzzles.

I know it's cuz he loves me, and I'm not at all mean to him about it... but I just wanna watch the Simpsons once in awhile!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
miss_kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Awwww Dookus, when he's all grown up and wants to go off on his own...
...you'll LONG for these days...







new pics? :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. In my experience ...
it's a puppy thing. He's just energetic and he loves you. How long have you had him? Sometimes puppies need a lot of reassurance when they leave their litters. Did he stay with his litter long enough? Separating them too soon can cause some minor behavioral problems. COuld you maybe get a blanket or something that his mother or littermates had that would have their smell? That might help, too!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. he's 16 weeks old now...
and left his mom at 13 weeks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Oh, he probably stayed with the litter ...
long enough then! Maybe he's just overwhelmed with your wonderfulness! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. aww...
how sweet.

I don't think there's any serious problems in his behavior. He's great. I just wondered if there was a way to make him content to be NEAR me without being smothered with affection.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. does he have a special
bwankie or piwwow in his crate? Perhaps something that you could bring out and put on the floor next to you when you're working? Our little Muppy likes a particular blanket (it's folded on our bed), and if I want him to just park his butt someplace, he'll usually do it on that blanket.

And don't worry, nobody around here will accuse you of ignoring or neglecting that little (not so little) pooch. Something tells me you adore him just as much as he adores you :pals:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
clover Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. he sounds smart and sweet
so maybe you could tell him, with love and no irritation, to play in his kennel (since he seems happy there) while mom/dad is working. he'll outgrow this, i'm sure, when you aren't so new and exciting to him and he's more of a pal than your baby
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bukk Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. why the hell do you have a puppy????? if you had to have a dog, you
should have gone to a shelter and rescued an adult dog...umm no not likly its puppy thing. my dog is 3 and still does this. recommend not teaching puppy that every time out of crate is play time. ignore pawing and it might stop
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I have a puppy
because I wanted a puppy. I've adopted adult dogs in the past and I highly recommend it. But this time I wanted a puppy, and one of a particular breed. I got what I wanted.

I adore him.... we have so much fun together. He's exactly what I expected from the breed (English Bulldog). I'm just tired from trying to be the best doggie-daddy I can be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amandae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. I agree ... he does sound smart and sweet!
My "puppy" (who is now almost a year and a half) still follows me around the house and will whine at my feet if I sit down in a chair she can't jump into. She's starting to just lay close to me somewhere instead ... but it's been a long time coming! She literally follows me around the house. Everyone here laughs about it. I think it's because I'm the one who feeds and takes care of her about 98%.

The gross part is when she's excited to see me and she follows me around trying to lick my toes when I walk!! YUCK! With every step one of my feet has a dog tongue attached to it! :puke:

But like I said, it's getting better. They're just so cute, aren't they??

Good luck with your puppy and enjoy the unwaivering admiration!

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. LOL...
he ALREADY does the foot-licking thing while I walk. It's hard to be mad at him for anything because he's so sweet, but it's just tiring sometimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. Is this the bulldog we're talking about?
Edited on Tue Oct-12-04 11:50 PM by YellowRubberDuckie
And why did you not post more pics? :silly:
I think Tucker just needs extra love because he's an extra special dog. Spoil the crap out of him. Or I might just have to come up there. And believe me. You don't want that. hehehehe.
Duckie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. heheh
yeah, I need to post new pics. He's awesome.

Believe me, he gets plenty of love. I'm unemployed and spend 24 hours with him. And yes, he's spoiled - but well-behaved. Yesterday my boyfriend asked me why Tucker won't go through a doorway before my bf. I told him I taught him that. He's really smart, really sweet, really loving.

The only complaint is the constant mouthing, pawing and nuzzling that occurs when he's NOT the center of attention. The only time he ever barks is when I'm on the phone or his chew-toy has fallen off the couch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vajraroshana Donating Member (762 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's a puppy thing....
He'll outgrow it.

Four weeks? Are you kidding me?

That ain't nothing...

Hang in there, Dookus, you still have about 30 weeks.

In about another two or three weeks you should be going to classes for obedience. If you can't....please do yourself and everyone else a favor and read some good books on training.

But please consider obedience training... It doesn't cost that much...Your dog will become to a degree socialized; and you'll learn some skills...

Trust me and others saying the same thing.....

You'll be glad you did it.

At least read some books and get your dog used to others somehow!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. thanks
I've read a lot of books on training, as well as a lot of websites.

I've also been through training classes with other dogs. As soon as Tucker is eligible for puppy-classes, he's going. I *LOVE* dog training.

He learned Sit on first day I had him. He's pretty good at Stay, shake hands and really good at High-Five. He doesn't enter a doorway until I do. He's awesome at Heel.

All of that was taught without treats - just praise. He's really eager to please, and I work with him daily.

I am concerned, though, about his lack of socialization with other dogs. I'm all for it, but my vet said I can't have him around others until two weeks after his last Parvo shot, which was yesterday. So he'll have gone from 13 weeks to 17 weeks without canine socialization. He HAS met a few dogs on-leash on my block, but I really want him to go to the beach (6 blocks away from me) or the dog park and learn to socialize. He's been great with every dog he's met, but today, a Jack Russell in a truck freaked him out by barking at him. He couldn't see the dog - just heard it. I'd never seen him frightened before - he pulled at the leash and just wanted to get home ASAP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
allalone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. you're gonna have so much fun
when you get to go to the off leash park. Pete the dog just loves it. The first time I took him he kind of stood around not sure what to do and then jumped up and sat on my shoulder to watch. I took him home when it got to be too much, like 12 dogs. Pete is so small that it is rare to see one his size and he has no problem with the big dogs. He starts going crazy in the car when he realizes where we're headed. The dogs all rush the gate to greet newcomers and when he is inside he does too. Every dog has a great time barking the welcome greeting. Our park here is very nice. Fenced meadow, very large and being Washington State surrounded by trees. There are trails through the woods too which are also completely fenced. (hmm grammar got away from me or do I mean syntax?) anyway, he'll love it and also it helps give the dog something other than you to focus on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vajraroshana Donating Member (762 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
38. awww he sounds so cute and wonderful.... you're doing fine...
You're one of the very few that take the time to train your dog...and also one that pays attention to your vet about vaccinations (so many don't, you know)

You're doing good...

Keep it up...

You're a very responsible owner!

You're going to be rewarded well by a well-trained dog BIG TIME!!!

You've got some good stuff coming your way...that doggy is gonna be awesome!!!

Thank you so much for being so caring and responsible!!!!


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. He's a baby! I read where you can expect to pay attention 15 minutes...
out of EVERY hour just on him. My puppy is 3 months old, I'm right behind you :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. lol
OK... then I guess we're both on target.

He WILL lay on his bed and play with his toys for awhile, but then he MUST come over and get some attention. I guess it will get better and my proximity will help him. But damn, he's such a baby! :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. Every dog is different
Some are attention needy; some are aloof.

And puppies are just downright annoying at times.

But a bulldog should eventually settle down & become a real couch potato as he gets older, because it is typical of the breed.

When I was growing up I had a boxer, which originally was bred from bulldogs & mastiffs, she was a pain in the ass as a puppy. My Mom wanted to send her back to her breeder, but we talked her out of it.

Also, they do a lot of mouthing as puppies, because they are teething.

Try to have patience...if he goes into his kennel willingly, he is already doing well. Most puppies I have had, would not stay in a kennel.

Also, just try a simple no, when he is being annoying. If he is nuzzling you, take your hand & gently push him away, while saying no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. ah, that's the rub
I've done that a thousand times, and I know "nagging" a dog is bad training. He paws or nuzzles and I say No and push him away. He does it again.. I push him away... ad infinitum.

I'm worried about teaching him "No" means "you have 12 more chances". I've tried all the tricks - a neck-pinch, a scruff-pull... but he just really wants to play, and I sympathize with that. And I play with him as much as possible, but it has to be on MY terms, not his.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I think maybe a battery operated toy might be your best bet.
One of those rubber toys that shakes alot, or something he can chase around a circle, like those cat and mouse toys.

You could of course try to wear his ass out during the play periods.

(You could feed him tons of food so he's too fat to move, but I wouldn't recommend that.)

Once you get him neutered he'll be a fat old fart.

Those "Kong" toys bounce around alot so he can chase them.

Of course, another option is a cat, since cats don't get parvo, or a kitten.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. hehe
Tucker has a Kong toy and I already have three cats. Teaching him not to annoy them is a full-time job in itself.

I don't know if I'll get him neutered yet. He's a quality pure-breed and I don't want to eliminate the options of either showing him or breeding him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Oh well, I tried.
Maybe if you teach him how to surf the internet(s)...

It worked for me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. your dog surfs the internet for you?
wow... how do I know who I'm responding to? Is it Jdjkkse or some random Pekingese?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. oops, that wasn't what I meant.
Sorry,it's late, I just need to go to bed.

I mean it sapped the life out of me and now i am a DU zombie.

The only solution I have left is the one I used, and it's a non-solution. I got another dog for Belli, his name is Buddy and I picked him up at a gas station. He was living at a local school and being fed by the kids there. The have been vel and cro since the moment they met.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Really, Dookus, after reading all your replies
you have a TERRIFIC dog!!!

He s smart, trainable, affectionate, loyal, playful, fun!!!

It doesn t get any better than that!!

Just enjoy him.

And post pics!!! I want more pics!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
allalone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. we're leading parallel puppy lives
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
20. he has learned "out of the kennel" is play time
just needs to learn that there is "down time" outside of the kennel too. That or leave things that way and put him in the kennel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. but yet...
Edited on Wed Oct-13-04 12:17 AM by Dookus
he DOES spend lots of time outside the kennel just sleeping near me. He also has his bed where he spends a lot of happy time.

I really don't think he equates "outside the kennel" with "annoy daddy time". In fact, he's sleeping on the couch next to me right now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PartyPooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
26. Fact: You belong to your dog for the next 15 + - years.
He doesn't "belong to you."

Believe me, I know!

:D

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. hehe
Yeah, I know that. I've also been owned by cats for 20 years.

He's my special buddy. I just think it's so awesome having a puppy and watching him grow up.

He was 20 lbs the day after I got him. Yesterday, he was 30 lbs. After three weeks. He'll max out between 50 and 60 (I hope!) so he's already halfway grown up!

He's asleep on the couch next to me right now... snoring like a drunken stevedore. I love this guy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PartyPooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. You're a terrific and dutiful daddy.
I remember the wonderful pictures you posted when you first brought him home. The puppy is adorable. And, you're a great dad!

It will all work out!

:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
allalone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
31. they keep telling me it's a puppy thing
Pete is on me ALL the time. even as we speak (write?) he is sleeping on my foot. I want to run screaming sometimes. He is 6 mos. old now and I just read today where he is entering what is called the terrible twos in human terms. aaarrrggghh. He's awfully cute tho' and so is your pup. btw, he's why my typing is so bad sometimes because he is on my left shoulder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. awww
congrats... pete sounds like a sweetie.

I guess we're both going through the same thing - total blind love for our pups along with annoyance and irritation.

I really don't know how people handle human babies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
39. Our dog came to us on his first birthday...He's 5 years old now, and
a total attention hog. He seems to feel that he deserves a certain respect, and is unwilling to allow you to skimp.

You adore him and he ADORES you. There are worse things in life. Enjoy his fixation while you can...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. aww...
your guy sounds like a real cutie.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. You're absolutely right.....Both my "guys" (human and canine)
are adorable!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
42. Puppies do that a lot
Edited on Wed Oct-13-04 06:29 AM by Gore1FL
When my dog was a just a pup I did all the things I ever did, but kept him on my lap while I was doing it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
43. It's a puppy thing BUT...
We have a 9 year old blue heeler and he is constantly putting toys in your lap to throw. If you tell him no he walks around the sofa and does it again. But we created the monster and now we have to live with it. We didn't train him when he was young.

Try teaching him to sit and to settle (lie down) next to you. Whenever he gets up, make him do it again until he stays for the amount of time you're shooting for, 10-minutes, half-hour, whatever. Eventually, you'll be able to tell him to settle and he should lie down beside you until you release him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
44. He Might Not Outgrow It At All
My hasn't. My dog is 4 YEARS old and he still has the puppy in him.

I was working out of the house the last 2 days, because my MS has flared up and i couldn't get around very well.

Well, with me being home all day, he didn't nap, he didn't settle. He wanted my attention about 70% of the time. It was easier getting around and a lot less walking working at home, but it certainly was more stressful than if i'd have driven into work!

I figure my dog will calm down about 6 months before he dies of old age.
The Professor
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LDS Jock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
45. Hey, what happened to your Molly avitar?
Did you change it now that you have Tucker, so as to not play favorites?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. nah
Molly will be back soon. I'm just memorializing Superman.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skygazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
47. It may be a puppy thing
And it may be a Tucker thing. My two Boxers were like night and day. Both were absolute loves but Dixie was content to just lay with me or put her head on my lap. I'd pet her or not depending on what I was doing and she was content just to be near me. That was from day one.

Jake, on the other hand, was like Tucker. He was needy, really, though I don't know why since he was raised the exact same way. Just his personality, I guess. He would put his head on my lap and nudge under my hand until he'd gotten me to pet him, then he'd wiggle and wiggle his way up onto my lap (60 pounds of adult male Boxer).

Sometimes, he'd actually run into the kitchen and jump into my lap which was somewhat alarming, though painless as he was very graceful. He was a good, good dog, very well behaved, but needy. Toys helped but never fully took away his need for my attention.

He died about a year ago and I miss his nudging nose terribly. ~sigh~ Tucker sounds like a real sweetheart.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » The DU Lounge Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC