I know nice Christians.

[coloradodem2005]

Why is it that a lot of them drink the kool-aid? Why are some of them so misguided. If Jesus is the way he is protrayed to be, he most certainly would not approve of much of what the "christian" leaders do. And yet decent people follow these idiots. Why?

[JohnKleeb]

1. huh what kool-aid?

BTW I don't follow any religious leader. I find my own private faith with the all mighty and that has served me well.

[coloradodem2005]

2. Just in general.

The people who go to evangelical churches and follow the socially conservative views. That is what I am talking about.


So, when you talk about your private faith, you mean that you worship on your own?

[JohnKleeb]

6. yep I worship on my own

Well you know, evangelicals are totally different than say me or others. Well I am catholic and while they have many social conservative views that I disagree with, many of them are often anti death penalty, crusaders against AIDS, etc.

[Maddy McCall]

3. Why is it that DUers drink their own kool-aid by making assumptions...

about Christians?

[JVS]

4. Because it's so much fun

[Maddy McCall]

5. DU groupthink for many.

[JohnKleeb]

7. because we're all the same

;)
I get upset with this too, and southern bashing as you know.

[Maddy McCall]

9. I know. You know my sentiments.

[JohnKleeb]

10. check your pm

It's fingerreading good ;). Really it pisses me off, in fact I believe that a person from another faith or religion that does good things in his life is more heaven bound than a person of my religion who spends his life hating people.

[Maddy McCall]

14. Right back atcha.

I have a deep belief in reaping what one sows. Karma, they call it. :-)

[Pithlet]

16. Why is it

that no one can talk about what people do in the name of Christianity? The poster clearly was not referring to all Christians. You cannot deny that there is an ever growing problem of people proclaiming to be Christians that want to strip us all of our very basic freedoms. That there are those who want to wage war. Who want to compel people to believe. Who want to tell us what to do with our bodies and what we do in our private lives. Who will compel us and our children to pray.

I'm sorry, but however poorly worded, the poster has a point. I know many Christians who don't fit the description above. As a matter of fact, I've known very few, thankfully. But, they are out there, and they do exist. I just wish that instead of arguing, all of us, Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, everyone fight these people. Because it is those of us who are non-Christian that have a lot to lose in this fight. And so does every other Christian who does not agree with these people that the OP is talking about. No doubt there is bashing that goes on on this board. But this isn't exactly the case, here. There is a problem and it needs to be discussed and dealt with.

[Behind the Aegis]

delete

oooops! Double posted!

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Great post!

Again, you nailed it!

Brightest Blessings!

[JohnKleeb]

18. I am sure our Muslims here on the board would get pissed off if we said

why do muslims do so and so. Of course there's hijacking going on in Christianity right now but why do we only focus on that, it's going on in Islam, Judaism, and other faiths.

[Pithlet]

19. We don't only focus on that

But we should pay attention to it. And we should be able to discuss it without being accused of bashing.

I am the first to come to the defense when true bashing happens. Catholics have the biggest complaint when it comes to bashing on this board, from other Christians as well as non-believers. And, I've come to their defense myself.

But there IS a problem. It does no good to bury our heads in the sand about it, Christian or not. There are a large and powerful group growing larger an more powerful by the day because no one speaks out about it. I mean, truly speaks out. Atheists and agnostics have little power, because we almost never get elected to office, and most of us live in places where it is awkward at best, and violent at worst to openly admit your lack of belief. Who is going to speak out for us? And when they do so, when are they going to let us speak out about it? To vent about it? It is very frustrating.

[JohnKleeb]

20. I realize that athiests and agnostics have little power

but I don't like them being intolerant to christians just because of some asshole fundie. Well I am glad you've come to the defense of Catholics because they get too much undeserved shit. Why do we only think that christians are doing all this intolerance, I hate to be a jerk but fundamalist islam is just as bad as fundamalist christianity.

[Pithlet]

23. But how many of us really think that?

Most atheists and agnostics do not think that Christians are the only ones doing all the bad stuff. Just look at the hundreds, if not thousands, of posts talking about all of the intolerance and hate in this world. We A/As are right there in it.

This is the only place I ever speak out openly about my beliefs. And it is refreshing that I almost never get bashed for them. My real life, outside of DU, is nothing like that. Hell, most of my own family do not even know what I believe, because I could never have that discussion with them. I don't want to see the looks on their faces when they look at me knowing I'm some kind of immoral weirdo, and where did they ever go wrong? Not all of my family. But, plenty of them. Believe me, I know that there are far worse things to face. But, it is there. And the reason it is there is because the fundies win almost every time. And when they start winning where it REALLY counts, in our courts and law, then we are all in trouble.

If some people even had half a clue what it is like to not be a Christian, particularly in certain parts of the country, I really feel we'd be given just a little bit more leeway to vent our frustration in trying to deal with the problem, and fight it.

[JohnKleeb]

25. Of course but those who do really should try to understand

I respect your right to believe to believe, in fact my own dad is an agnostic and I think my mom is too and I once thought like htat. I would never bash an athiest or an agnostic for their beliefs but I will not hesistate to give them hell if they are intolerant to other faiths, I treat how I would want to be treated.

[Pithlet]

28. And I am perfectly fine with that.

You should be able to defend yourself whenever anyone bashes you for your belief. But, just know that when someone is criticizing factions of Christianity that want to force their belifes on others, they aren't necessarly lumping you in with them. I never would. I've seen enough of your posts here to know never to lump you in with them.

[JohnKleeb]

30. Well I don't believe in forcing my beliefs on others

Yes but when someone says that religion makes people ignorant, I am gonna give hell, you know why because it wasn't some athiest or agnostic or nonbeliever that helped mold my political beliefs, it was one of those christians. I hate when people go after the Catholic Church, and you know what else, I hate it when right wingers call Islam a hateful religion or when they say Athiests are horrible people who are going to hell. I hate that too.

[Pithlet]

32. Give them hell

I'm not talking about those kinds of comments. They deserve your wrath. I'm talking about anyone who is discussing religious Right, and some of the fundamentalists and other Christian sects that back them. These discussions get peppered with accusations of Christian bashing, and that is what I'm tired of. Sure, those discussions often include Christian bashing, just like any other controversial subject on DU. I have no problem with those comments being addressed. But, it's just as unfair to paint all non-believing DUers because of those comments as it is to lump all Christians in with the bad apples. Not that you're doing that. But I'm seeing that here a lot, with the "DU is hostile to Christians" threads. It is an attempt to paint all of us as intolerant, and that isn't fair either.

[JohnKleeb]

34. See they don't say the Christian right, they say christian often

I don't feel DU is hostile to Christians but I do feel that some on DU are unjustly hostile to Christians because of the Robertsons' and the Falwells' of the world. I wasn't lumping in all non believing DUers with what goes on, hell the other Christians give the Catholics more shit than the Athiests, I've actually had back up help on anti catholicism not from fellow christians but from athiests. I don't think you're all intolerant, I never said that.

[Pithlet]

36. I know

I know you never have. If it appears that I've accused you of that, then I do apologize.

The thing is, a lot of that hostility, though it may be wrong, is rooted in injustice. Hostility and hate are never right, but it never hurts to understand what is driving that, either. Acknowledging the problems that feed that hate, because they ARE there.

A lot of people, right or wrong, feel that we are being tossed aside by our Liberal Christian brothers and sisters who would rather put up the defensive because of a vocal few, rather than working to change and acknowledging the problems that DO exist. All the way up to our candidate for presidency. Don't get me wrong, I support Kerry, and I'm voting for him, and I realize a lot of it sadly is politics, but issues facing separation of Church and State, and persecution of non-Christians is getting swept under the rug, while the Christian right continues to gain power and influence. How sad is it that it is political suicide to address those issues in this election? What does that say about the state of organized religion in this country? I do not believe I am bashing Christians by bringing up these issues. And some of those who would, I ask; what are YOU doing to address those problems? I don't mean you, personally, John, I'm talking generally.

My whole point is I'm asking everyone at DU to stop polarizing this issue over petty bullshit. Both sides. Stop alienating each other by bashing our different beliefs, and start working to ensure that we all keep the right to exercise them freely.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. I agree

It is not fair (but that is life). So often, people get blamed for the actions of others because they belong to that particular group. I also don't think you are a "jerk" because you pointed out the "badness" of the fundamentalists of Islam. Many religions are taken over by extremists, much like governments! I hate that some foreigners look at ALL Americans and "paint" us with the same brush..or Southerners for that matter! Generalizations are tough on us all!

Brightest Blessings!

[JohnKleeb]

27. I understand, it's just I don't go around

saying athiests are bad because of Stalin, Stalin was an athiest know, athiests can be tyrannical too ya ok now. It's just I don't like generalizations, I really wish those who don't believe the same things I do religiously would do the same. I wish they wouldn't call religion stupid, I don't think not believing is stupid, I don't do the same but it's not stupid or doesn't make you a less person.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Again, I agree

Generalizations hurt us all. It is what gives way to bigotry and hate. I also don't like that people belittle my beliefs. I also understand that "they" can say what they like, it will not change my beliefs! I am very intelligent (OK...I am well-read..not a great brain) and just because I believe in a creator, I am some how deficient? I don't get it.

[JohnKleeb]

35. I don't know why people think people who believe in some religion

are ignorant, I know damn well they'd be upset if I went around saying athiests are just too stubborn. Now I don't say that because unlike some people I may not share the belief but I accept and understand it as a diffeerent view.

[Maddy McCall]

21. Because what someone does "in the name of Christianity" is not

equivalent to Christianity.

Apples and oranges.

[Pithlet]

26. But many feel it is

In this country, "In the name of Christianity" is becoming more and more important. It is NOT apples and oranges when a majority of people, or enough of them feel that way that it actually affects our lives and public policy. When public figures openly state that they would never vote an atheist into office, and they get little to no backlash for it. Apples and apples.

Like I said in another post on this subject, if more people knew what it is to be a non-believer in this country, they might cut us some slack. I'm not defending Christian bashing. I am defending the right to talk about those who act in the name of Christianity. And not just for atheists. ANYONE who doesn't believe that is what Christianity should represent. Because, if enough Christians do, or don't care enough to do anything about it, then it doesn't matter if that truly isn't Christian, does it? When they make my children pray, does it matter? When I can't be open about my beliefs anywhere but DU, does it matter? It may be apples and oranges to you, but it feels like it is Apples and Apples to me. A whole orchard of them.

Enough people believe that George Bush is a Christian and that his beliefs and acts are in the name of Christianity to make this race a close one.

[qnr]

22. Why are you assuming we are?

Everyone makes comments on people every day. In many cases, it requires calling attention to a particular group.

Whether it's left-handed people, Christians, New Yorkers, Yankees fans, Republicans, Earthlings, carbon based lifeforms, Mac users, Jarheads, Bolivians, whatever.... you narrow the field down a bit, but with the implicit understanding that you aren't making a generalization about the whole group, just that they happen to fit in that group.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. Kool-aid for all!

Just kidding!

I feel there are many Christians that feel their religion has been hijacked but they do not know what to do. Also, many facets of Christianity rely on the leader (pastor, priest, etc) to explain the Bible for them. I am not Christian and I have read the Bible (cover to cover) more times than most Christians I know! They only repeat the verses stated in church or by the pastor.

It is a shame more people do not follow the example of Christ, but that is life. I have always felt if Christ did return to earth in a human guise, many Christian leaders would be the first to place him back on a cross! His preachings would not be any more popular today then when He first made them!

DISCLAIMER: Mind you, not ALL Christians are like this!!! I do not HATE Christians!!! Not ALL Christians are hypocrites!!

Why did I put the disclaimer? Because there are a few here that take any criticism of Christians or Christianity as an assault on all Christians!

Brightest Blessings!

[Maddy McCall]

11. Funny thing is...you don't know my religious affiliation, or even if...

I have a religious affiliation.

Whether I am a Christian, Daoist, or atheist isn't the point; the attacks on Christians here have gotten really old.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Funny thing is....I didn't make an assumption!

I was addressing the main post which asked why so many "CHRISTIANS" drank the Kool-aid! I didn't assume anything about you or even the author, I just gave my opinion that I feel many of the "anti-Christian" posts really aren't directed at ALL Christians, but a select few.

Brightest Blessings!

(On edit: when I typed my original post it was after the original author made the post. I was thinking I would be post #3, I ended up as post #8! I am a damn slow typist!)

[MatrixEscape]

12. My speculation ...

Oh, I have known very intelligent and kind Christians. I have noted that the most liberal ones are smarter than average though. I think they are not very happy with the negative image that is being portrayed by the fundies and I wouldn't be either.

Fundies often sound very judgmental and critical and repressive about other people's "sins" as they see them.

Anyway, the reason they drink the Kool-aid? The reason I have come to reject organized religions is the "opiate of the masses" view. While I don't reject spiritual concepts and have no qualms with faith, I see that belief is belief. By that I mean, when you take everything on a belief basis, it all depends on who is influencing them, in the end. That makes it rife for use as a tool of manipulation and control. That should be obvious historically.

So, the GOP gets in bed with the Fundies because they share common goals and ambitions. The Fundie leaders, (TV, Books, Pulpit) capitalize on the power base to amass money and power. They then serve the believers Kool-aid and agitprop every chance they get.

Questioning the leaders is taboo and critical thought is not often applied. So, unless there is a schism over a particular tenet, or a scandal, the tend to do what they are told since only heretics dare to question. If they do question they risk being ostracized.

Another factor is that those higher up the chain often act as if the have the most direct, pyschic line to God Himself. They express themselves that way often and with the help of Divine Providence, (they are chosen to minister, etc.) the implication is clear.

Watch a Tele-Evangelist sometime. Then imagine how thirsty one could get for a nice, tall glass of Kool-aid under those pretenses. Mix in some politics and lo, and behold, you have a power base. Sprinkle that with the Shepherd leading his "flock" and you have a formula for perfect sheeples. You can get rich with enough charismatic holy rolling.

To bad, "Be ye wise as serpents!" and "Get ye Wisdom" were not interpreted as any reference to using one's brain along with one's fate.

[madrchsod]

15. i`m a nice believer in christ`s teachings

the people who follow, refuse to question.

[Swamp Rat]

29. Me too. I'm related to some.

I know some nice "other religion" people and atheists too.

[izzie]

31. I do not think it is Christians but people who will not think

I heard a guy yesterday say the same stuff the GOP have been putting out and if he is a re-born Christian I will eat my hat so to speak. I really got mad and he would not back down but did say I maybe right he, Kerry, was in longer than 2 months, if my husband had been in the service and knew better, But to be frank I do not think he believed me. One re-mark was Kerry was in the service for 2 months and did his own purple hearts. Now who in their right mind could think that if they had ever read about the service? But I hear this all the time from the right wing nuts on TV and radio. I think Kerry had to sign up for a regular tour and it is like 7 years or so in the reserve with a few years of active duty. And you are on call if the service wants you in all that time.Maybe it is 4 years. I have just for got but had a cousin that did his service from college in the Navy that way , and he was at sea 2 years.