Question just for the DU ladies: Is porn offensive/degrading to women?

[UpsideDownFlag]

and if so, why? I have heard both sides of the argument- that it degrades them, etc., but the other side says that it is a compliment to the female form, blah blah, and thousands of women do it...

i personally think it is degrading. But i'm a guy. What do the Ladies of DU have to say?

[UpsideDownFlag]

1. ...i guess not. Well, that's a load off. nt

[name not needed]

32. "That's a load off"

Interesting choice of words while talking about porn

[jdj]

2. I'd like women to have control of it

to make the money from it, and increasingly they are, women like Pamela Anderson and Jenna Jameson are taking complete control of their image, and getting the $$$.

Both have been raped, so the theory that rape and sexual molestation have something to do with it could be valid, from what I have read.

However I know many, many women who have been raped or sexually assaulted who are not in porn, so the theory could be invalid.

pornography ("pictures of whores") to me means nude pictures which is why I included Pamela Lee.

I think the idea that the naked female body is offensive is much more offensive to me, but people have different comfort levels re: sexuality so some people can't handle it. What I hear coming from the right about porn is offensive to me, because it is about reproductive control in all it's forms and has nothing to do with respect for women.

Exploitation is totally offensive, so I would hope that women increasingly reap more profits from this industry.

[UpsideDownFlag]

3. right, i feel that too much of the industry is exploitation.

but if women have control over their careers within that field, i could see it being ok.

[LibLover]

4. Some parts yes, some parts no.

When the girls line up to have some guy blow all over their face like it's some prize for being a good little nympho, it's degrading.

When it shows to attractive people behaing normally by pleasing each other, no, it's not degrading.

For a girl I've probably seen my share of porn. (all those brothers plus most of my friends are male). How women get treated really depends on who makes the movie.

[WhiteTara]

5. i think you answered your own question

if it makes you feel bad don't do it.  Of course it is
offensive and degrading.  It also keeps humans from honoring
the divine feminine that dwells in all people.  It keeps us
from remembering that we live in the garden of eden even
today.  It keeps us slaves to the idea that men are superior
and that women were taken from the rib of a man...one of my
personal favorite lies.  Let's see...God creates man... women
came from men, but then woman had all the babies...does not
compute.  Oldest art in the world is about 60,000 years old
and is of a woman giving birth.  The Goddess creating Life. 
The gates of paradise are between a woman's thighs...so when
you have some guy spewing semen on some woman's face in a
video it sort of degrades the whole experience of the bliss of
uniting two souls through their bodies.  Sex is the highest
experience that can be had on the face of the earth and to
simulate force and degradation takes us below the level of
four leggeds.  imho of course

[OldEurope]

6. As always: it depends.

I must admit to have enjoyed porn sometimes, and also I have seen porn that I did not like at all because it was offensive and disgusting.
Between adults it is a thing of personal taste, I think.

[intheflow]

7. It really depends on a lot of things

It can certainly be seen as degrading. Just treating women as sex toys, basically.

Worse is that many women are forced into porn because of a global slave trade in women and children for porn and as sex workers (for examples, see http://www.stanford.edu/class/e297c/New%20Slave%20Trade.htm). This is completely immoral and needs to be stopped. It is a HUGE problem but never talked about.

But then for other women, working in porn or as a sex worker really is a viable choice for them. This is often financial in nature, for it is true that while society condemns prostitutes and porn stars, it can pay pretty damn well, especially if you're pretty and actually like having sex. The porn industry is booming these days, so some women are getting quite wealthy with it.

And I know several women, all single mothers, who stripped for a living. This was a job they could do in minimal time for maximum pay, allowing them more time to spend with their kids as well as allowing them to go to college and keep up with the mortgage.

So mixed bag, really.

[redqueen]

24. Bless you for bringing up the global slave trade issue.

:yourock:

[wickerwoman]

8. I think that by definition it is.

Isn't that the difference between porn and erotica? Erotica celebrates sex between equals and porn always entails the objectification and degradation of the woman or women involved?

I have no problem with erotica. I think it should be more widely available and not stigmatized like porn.

I think porn is one of the major contributing factors to the culture of male entitlement in America today. Here's an eleven or twelve year old kid looking pictures of submissive bimbos with no personality who think his dick is the center of the universe. How is that not going to screw with his head and make him bitter and mysogynistic when he has to deal with real women?

[ofrfxsk]

44. You've perfectly said what I've been thinking for a long time.

Thank you.

[barb162]

47. yes n/t

[USA_1]

9. pornography

If you don't mind my intrusion, I say pornography is demeaning to everyone. Of course, reich wing psychopaths like Rupert Murdoch is the world's biggest pornographer and makes loads of money from his filthy degeneracy. Pornography is just another way for exploitative, psychotic, and perverted deviants like him to make more money while innocents of both genders are raped and humiliated.

[Djinn]

10. not neccesarily

about the only time woman are allowed to enjoy sex without having to be "in lurv" or feeling massively guilty about it is in porn. They're allowed to just enjoy it, it'd be nice to see the acknowledgement elsewhere that not all women fall in love with a bloke just because they screw that not all women treat it like some fucking treasure to be guarded, no-one expects men to feel that way, why isn't THAT degrading?

Even the really off stuff I don't really see as being degrading to ALL women, I've certaibnly never felt degraded seeing porn.

It's also one of the very few industries in which women out-earn men.

Frankly I don't think it's the porn that degrades but the whore/virgin thing that we've all wrapped sex up in - it's no more scared than walking and we've made this HUGE deal out of it, if sex was seen as just another physical function then would porn be seen as degrading?

[ofrfxsk]

45. I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you

Do you really think those women are actually having fun?

[Djinn]

53. yeah you are

but that was probably the way I put it - what I was referring to is depiction - those women are doing a job and probably enjoy it about as much as I enjoy cleaning out my filing cabinet which I am currently putting off.

If the question is are the women IN porn being degraded then my answer would be slightly different - I took jibjab's question to be referring to does porn degrade ALL women, personally I find the depiction of the women pretending to have a headache or not being able to fuck without being in love far more degrading.

That said there are some porn actresses that do actually enjoy there job, the fact some some feminists want to insist that's only because they're oppressed or indoctrinated or whatever is far more sexist than someone filming themselves rooting.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. I'd say it really depends on the type of porn.

Not that I watch it, but I would say that if it treats women as simply objects for male gratification, or portrays violence or degradation as sexy or a turn on for men, then it is offensive.

If it merely portrays sex, or displays nudity then no, I wouldn't think of it as offensive.

That's just my opinion, others may differ.

[Spangle]

12. More like RIPED OFF!

The porn industry rakes in tons of money. But the actors don't see the profit from the film. And the actors are the ones who also take the "heat" from such a job. Also the risks of AIDs,etc.

As a female, the porn idustry never bothered me until I learned about that aspect of it. Those that pose for playboy, etc.. Are not nearly abused.

The women also feel abused because they make agreements ahead of time that are not honored during the shoot.

Basicly, the set up right now just isn't "cool". Some major changes should be made.

Like I said, nothing wrong with showing naked bodys. It's the many ways the actors and actoress are being ripped off that should be the issue. And the abuse.

[the Princess]

13. Yes and No

I think if it's just sex - no harm no foul - I like that kind of porn as a "marital aid". :)

But the kind of porn where woman are harmed or raped or forced to do horrible things or made to behave like children etc., that's harmful to all women - it makes us objects and when a woman becomes an object there is no reason to respect or protect her.

JMO

[Djinn]

14. or the type that involves kids

like the sort the bloke in your sig paid for more than once?

[the Princess]

15. Don't get me started on what Pete DID NOT DO

The press was all over his ass when he was arrested but not a word was said when he was exonerated. They took every computer in his home away and examined the hard drives for over a month and found NOTHING! His computers were given back and he was released from any chanrges. He paid a grand total of ONCE to get into a child porn site because he wanted to see what was happening on the Internet Becasue he was working to STOP child porn. Yup he is guilty of one thing - being naive about what might happen if he went into a child pron site.

Don't make stupid comments wihtout being able to back it up. Because of people like you - this man will never be anything but a pedophile even tho he did nothing.

[Djinn]

16. well that's odd

because in the mea culpa I read - written by the man himself - he said he accessed the kiddie porn twice, he had the "very rational" reason of doing research, I don't buy it, BTW I don't think looking at a couple of jpegs neccesarily makes him a peadophile but to claim he was trying to stop it so he had to pay for it...seriously?? what did he think he could do? if you know of a kid porn site you report it you don't get your credit card out.

Oh and not being charged and exonerated aren't the same thing - he was never "exonerated"

How many other kid born buyer would get away with the "I only bought it (therefore I was complicit in the rape of a child somewhere) because I was trying to stop it" line - it's got bells on

[the Princess]

17. Get a life

[Djinn]

18. Given a caution by the cops

and placed on the sex offenders register, yep sure sounds like he was exhonerated.

Scotland Yard said: "It is not a defence to access these images for research or out of curiosity."

Would you defend anyone else if this was their excuse, somehow I doubt it

[CO Liberal]

22. I Would Expect Sentiments Like That On "Free Republic" - Not Here

As my wife said above - get a life.

[Djinn]

52. what???

I havn't passed any judgements on Pete Townsend - I havn't said he should be whipped and banished from society - I also said looking at a couple of jpegs DIDN'T make him a peadophile. Perhaps you could tell exactly what "sentiments' you'd expect to find on freepville coz quite frankly that's offensive. What (apart from the FACTS re Townsends caution etc) did you find so problematic, did you even read my posts or did you just come running when whistled??

All I said was he WASN'T exonerated - because he wasn't and that he was cautioned and placed on the register - you and your wife can bleat and moan as much as you like but it wont change those facts.

and to redqueen who suggested I do "research"- what have I stated that's wrong? or are you just frothing at the mouth like the two posters above that can't actually come up with anything to dispute what I've said which some how constitutes not having a life...fucking hilarious

[redqueen]

23. Do some research

Seriously.

:eyes:

[JasonNeedlemeyer]

19. I only watch gay porn.

And I don't think it is degrading to the hot guys who are performing so I suppose woman in porn would not be degrading either as long as they enjoy doing it.

[FreedomFry]

20. Most porn lacks true eroticism, and in that sense, it's degrading.

It offends me that porn is generally lackluster, uncreative and off-putting. There's no attempt to be genuinely erotic or passionate. There's no subtlety, and any intelligent woman will tell you sexual subtlety is an incredible aphrodisiac. When most people get it on in porn movies, all those grunts and moans and lip-licking and fake breasts are more of a turn-off than a turn-on. Is a naked woman with fake breasts in stilettos really exciting to anyone? Call me crazy, but I'd much rather see partially clothed people talking nasty to each other -- that's more erotic to me. But that probably wouldn't qualify as porn.

[SarahB]

21. On principle, no.

Am I offended by sexuality? No.
Am I offended by nudity? No.
Do I find some of it exciting at times? Yeah.

Still though, there's often such a narrow view with most mainstream porn, catering simply to men's needs and fantasies while pretty much ignoring the needs of women. Some of it really is a bit degrading and dehumanizing. There's also the whole thing of how women are surgically-enhanced at levels beyond that of perhaps healthy. I'm naturally a bit busty and I've been questioned at times in life of being surgically enhanced, but nope. I think if women do this it's their business, but what does it say about a society where women feel compelled to put various forms of goo in their bodies to feel sexy?

I've seen some erotica that is of better quality that I like, but being less visual than men for the most part (and the quality stuff is harder to find or sort through), I probably would rather read something stimulating (or even better, just do what I'd want) than watch someone else do it.

[redqueen]

25. No

I agree with another post upthread.

If we didn't portray some women as 'good' and some as 'bad' simply based on their sexual tastes, it wouldn't matter.

Simple as that.

[MissMillie]

26. I think it is

Mostly because the vast majority of porn is produced by scumbags. I'm not talking about mainstream porn like Playboy and Penthouse. That stuff is probably on the up-and-up. But for every Playboy or Penthouse there are probably 10 to 20 obscure porn producers who kidnap women, drug and rape women, and torture womem (without their concent) all in the name of a buck.

The problem I have w/ mainstream porn is that it's so fake. Women are made out to be size queens, and are shown to only get off when they're being penetrated. In other words, porn is made for the pleasure of men.

Get this guys.... those women are faking it. If you really want to get a woman off, never mind about buying Ron Jeremy's special serum to increase the size of your penis. Learn how to perform oral sex.

[UpsideDownFlag]

28. That's pretty much how i feel about it- playboy isn't too bad...

..but hardly representative.

also, good comment towards the end- my g/f taught me about that pretty darn quick.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. It really depends. I would feel degraded if I ever thought to act in one,

which I wouldn't. I think it's just there really.

[skygazer]

29. I think to a certain extent it is

Mainly because porn is mostly geared toward men and so women are sort of marginal characters in the whole thing, sex objects with no real role besides pleasing the men. That in itself is degrading. As someone above pointed out, that's the difference between porn and erotica.

I also agree with whoever said that porn degrades both men and women - by reducing sex to such a simplistic and feelingless act, it takes away it's very humanity. JMO.

[mongo]

30. I have to butt in here

Is SOME porn degrading to women? Yes. Without a doubt.

But most of the responses here suggest that MOST MAINSTREAM PORN is degrading to women. That just isn't true.

The two biggest companies Vivid and Wicked NEVER put out a movie that I would consider degrading to women. The women (act like) they are enjoying the sex in the film. They are also paid well for their work, on the average of 10 times more than the men make.

Yes, most porn, and especially the harder stuff that people keep suggesting is MAINSTREAM is marketed to men. I get the idea from several posts that if the woman is worshipped as a goddess it is OK, but if she takes a pop shot to the face it is degrading.

Newsflash: Some women like to be submissive/degraded/controled during sex. Some women like to be spanked and have their nipples tortured.

As well, there is a whole genre of porn for submissive men. Guys having their members tied up and their balls covered with clothspins, that sort of thing.

Worse is that many women are forced into porn because of a global slave trade in women and children for porn and as sex workers
-----------------
Mostly because the vast majority of porn is produced by scumbags. I'm not talking about mainstream porn like Playboy and Penthouse. That stuff is probably on the up-and-up. But for every Playboy or Penthouse there are probably 10 to 20 obscure porn producers who kidnap women, drug and rape women, and torture womem (without their concent) all in the name of a buck.

More propaganda from the Right wing. All performers sign a consent agreement. This is just not happening in the legal US porn market, as the right wing would like you to belive. Does it happen? Sure - but so does child porn - do you think I sell any of THAT in my store?

I have 1700 movies on my floor and I can tell you in certainty that every woman consented to what is portrayed in the film.

One last note. There are over 1000 adult movies produced each month. There is a movie for every flavor and taste. It is the right wing fundies that have told you that most porn is degrading to women (who think any filmed sex act or even nudity is degrading). Beauty and degradation are in the eye of the beholder.

Just .02 from a smut peddler.

[buddhamama]

31. no and yes

men and women are having sex. should men feel degraded too? perhaps, and maybe they do. i dunno.

there's nothing wrong with women having sex, wanting to have sex and enjoying it. it doesn't make them 'anything' but human.

content is the determining factor. some pornography can be degrading.

[davsand]

33. If they chose to do it, then more power to them!

It is a job like any other when you do it for cash, IMO.

As long as it is a chosen job, then more power to them. The only thing I ever wondered about while a porn flick was playing was how MUCH do they spend in lube and fingernail polish very year?

If they are forced to do it--that is something different. Then it becomes exploitation...

Laura

[mongo]

34. how MUCH do they spend in lube and fingernail polish very year?

Ha! Loads I'm sure - but not as much as dancers spend on outfits and shoes. Around here the dancers really don't make that much money - and I think some of them spend it on outfits and shoes as fast as they can make it!

[CanuckAmok]

37. not a lady, but here's my $0.02 as somone with one degree of separation...

...from the biz.

Someone earlier posted that some types of porn are degrading. My personal observation is that ALL porn performers, whether they are in the super-high-end, shot on 35mm film big budget features, or the down-and-dirty amateur gangbang tapes, are performing. It's not real, and that's important for the viewer to remember (and an unfortunate number do not). Just because Savannah Sparrow (I just grabbed that porn name from a birdwatching book--pretty good, hey?) takes on 50 guys in one session, doesn't mean my next date will want to, or that Ms. Sparrow does that kind of thing in her spare time.

The whole purpose of porn is to provide the viewer with access to a fantasy he/she wouldn't otherwise have at his/her disposal. If porn were only average m/f couples having missionary position sex three minutes at a time, nobody would watch it. The fact of the matter is that porn MUST be diverse and appeal to as many tastes as possible. That's it's job.

It's a very debateable issue, but one thing is certain; the legal porn business is a very lucrative one, and a woman with a good head on her shoulders and an ability to stay very focused and professional can make millions doing it.

What I personally find degrading to both men and women is an affluent society where people are expected to get by on $7 per hour or less. If you, as a man or a woman, have found a way out of serial poverty by doing something which you personally don't have a problem doing or find offensive, then more power to you.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

41. Wow great post

and while I knew none of it was real, you also said some things I hadn't really thought of.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

35. My answer

Intellectually, I don't like it.

Non-intellectually (don't know how else to put it tastefully), I have enjoyed it. And do. It can be quite....entertaining to watch with your partner.

That is all.

[jhain]

36. yes

no merit in objectifying another human.

you can easily see where that has gotten us lately...

-Jude

[Nikia]

38. Some of it is

WE have accidently rented porn films which turned out to be horrible. In one, a doctor saves a young woman from a suicide attempt only to use her as his sex slave. In another, the guy kills a woman after they have an arguement after having sex. A few others, the man used degreding terms such as "slut" "bitch" and "whore" while having sex with a woman. By the synopsis on the back, none of these films suggested that it was that type.
In general though, it depends on one's perspective. I think that people who are emotionally stable, comfortable with their sexuality, and see men and women as equals can watch more decent porn and have it not be degrading to women. I think that when people who are inclined to think of women as only sex objects may have their ideas reinforced when they watch porn. That becomes degrading to women.

[CanuckAmok]

40. The Devil in Miss Jones..

I know several women who have really enjoyed the theme of this movie:

Miss Jones is a woman who has no interest in life, and kills herself. She wakes up in a sort of afterlife, and is shown the enjoyment of sex, not just as a sex slave, but as a dominatrix, and in many other 'roles' and scenarios. It's actually more about female sexual empowerment than about female degredation.

The 'punchline' of the movie, however, is that she has been in hell the whole time (for the sin of committing suicide), and her punishment is to have complete sexual empowerment given to her, and then her ability to orgasm taken away for eternity.

[Krupskaya]

39. Yes, degrading. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. Depends on what kind of porn it is.

Man and woman doing the falafel thing in various and creative positions? No.

But there's some disgusting, I-can-'t-believe-people-get-of-on-that shit out there.

[RPM]

43. not to women

only to the mooks who own it.

[Cats Against Frist]

46. I think porn is stupid

That said, I don't necessarily think that it is inherently offensive, nor do I think it should be like stamped out or anything.

Now, we get personal -- sorry:

I used to be one of the women that another poster mentioned in this thread: got off on being dominated, tied up, rape fantasies, etc. Not only that, but far more twisted things that I prefer not to relate, at this time.

I remember, about 5 or 6 years ago, reading the chapter in "The Beauty Myth" where Wolfe is ragging on porn and talking about some kind of hippie poppy field version of "men and women coming together to participate in mutually satisfying, gentle sex" or something like that, and I thought "GOOD GOD, WOMAN, YOU NEED TO LOOSEN UP."

Fast forward several years: after having a baby, and having my body and my self-esteem morph into life-capsule, and then subside to something no more defined than The Schmoo, I decided that porn is TOTALLY degrading, and gross, and does harm to some relationships. I'm sure that some people are fine with it, but I think it should be something mutually agreed upon in a relationship. I can honestly think of nothing more sad than a 40-year-or-so old couple, with a wife that has squeezed out two children, whose body is not what it once was, that has to compete with her insensitive husband looking at 16-year-old Thai girls.

It's ultra-gross, and for that -- I'm now down with Wolfe -- instead of believing that the best sex is the animalistic, fantasy, HBO sex, I believe that it's much better to have a sexual relationship that goes beyond the body and merely the visceral.

They say, you know, that sex is like mostly cerebral. A lot of the time, I think, because of pornography, people's sexuality is conditioned to certain things that might cause themselves or someone they love a lot of pain or low self-esteem, in the long run.

And that's why :) my lover (as opposed to my porn-watching boyfriend) thinks that I'm the earth mother co-op goddess of all fairly traded socks & coffee, with my round belly, and waist-length hair. This man, who is the type that typically, you might find wanting to date a really "attractive" woman, has a narrative -- a cerebral, or thought-induced narrative -- that makes me the sexiest thing in the whole world, though I look more like a socialist candidate for president than Britney Spears, or something.

We should all be so lucky, and so bless to be so open minded and unconstructed.

[rockydem]

48. thoughtful post

insightful - thanks for sharing...

[SarahB]

49. That is an interesting post.

Makes me think anyway. I'm at a point where even though I've had children, it could be argued to say that to a large degree I've managed to stay within many of these narrow, culturally defined terms of beauty to an extent, but what does that mean? I guess for me, it has meant the person I've been with my entire adult life who I thought was going to be my life partner (we're divorcing) still defines my value too often based on external factors without seeing appreciating, or understanding the internal ones. It has meant when I feel upset or see little flaws in myself, the response has been along the lines of, "When I have more money, you can get plastic surgery." Not, "You are beautiful the way you are." Sometimes, the best I've gotten is, "Yeah, but you're still hot."

As I move forward and really look at myself, how I define myself, my marriage ending, and my own views and concepts with feminism as a whole, I find it an odd balance with how males perceive me or perhaps are attracted to me on some level without understanding or appreciating at all what is really me- the inner me, the "me" that makes me tick, and how this will all play into my own sexuality in the future. Very rarely, have I had experiences in life of someone who sees me on this level of being attractive as a whole person (mental, spiritual, emotional as well as physical) and liking me for all that I am. That's why when someone has, I really treasure that person.

Thus far, my general experiences have felt like I got treated not-so-well during periods of my life I was the most vulnerable. I think of after I had my babies and I had extra weight, was flabbier, and less libido. During those times, it felt as though I was not treated in any way close to being nurtured or lovingly. Sure, he "helped out", but I was generally made to feel like a burden in some way. He could use it as an excuse for his own negative choices. I see such a contrast with how I'm treated at times I have looked better by him, but then I feel like I'm nothing more than arm candy. I make it sound like I married a total Neanderthal. He's not, but there's this element of sexism that has consistently bothered me that we've never been able to break through and he doesn't seem to understand.

While I like to be considered physically attractive, there's this whole element that comes with it- of people putting you in a narrow, one-dimensional box and having to weed through more jerks to find someone who is above that superficial level- someone who may like the outside, but truly cherish your inside. It's hard to know exactly what I'm trying to say other than your post makes me think.

[IronLionZion]

50. there are guys in porn too

and nobody forces them to do it.

what's more degrading to women is Laura Bush going around saying W is for women.


But I'm a guy so take this with a grain of salt

[katusha]

51. porn is less degrading....

than being a RW shill. at least they admit that they are screwing people for money.