Articles like this make me hate American "Survivor? Count me in!!" culture

[Rabrrrrrr]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/24/weekinreview/24chan.html

Maybe I'm a snob, I don't know, but for so much of my life I've been interested in usable, intelligent, interesting, mind-expanding things, and America has seemed constantly to want to block all of us who are interested in such things and to knock us down while they celebrate banality, mediocrity, and other inconsequential things.

I'm glad that at least the NYT and a few (a small few) other national publications do at least take an interest in such news.

I pray for the day when the Nobel and Pulitzer winners get their own TV specials that America watches, and that their research/writings are talked about around the water coolers and on the factory assembly lines instead of idiotic TV shows, sports scores, and what Rush had to say.

[rockydem]

1. interesting article

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Intimidating at first

Until I realized that I could understand the concepts expressed if I applied myself to them. For the longest time, I've been bound by this perception of myself as 'not logical' and 'not a math person'. Well, of course I'm not going to be if I keep telling myself that!

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. Absolutely - you can't be that if you tell yourself you can't be that!

I listened to my art teachers early in my life who told me I was no artist. I thought they were full of shit, but then, they had the authority. Took me a long time to finally realize the problem wasn't that I wasn't an artist, the problem was that their world-view was too narrow to grasp abstract (not that I, as a teenager, knew about abstract, but that's what I liked and wanted to do; they didn't appreciate it). Same with some choral teachers who said "You can't sing." Well, fucknut, I *know* I don't sing well. Why don't you fucking teach me, then? But of course, they didn't. Had to wait until I was in my twenties and found a voice teacher that I began to sing in tune. So, it wasn't that I wasn't a bad singer - the problem was that I was a singer who hadn't been properly trained yet.

Now math is a bit different - unlike art, in math there are rights and wrongs. But still, the concept is the same. Until you decide to stop not-being whatever it is you tell yourself you aren't, you can't be it.

I hope the grammer was correct in that last sentence. That was a tough one.

You are probably a logical person and a math person - you just haven't been trained properly yet.

[Skittles]

2. those shows sicken me

finding it entertaining watching people degrade themselves for money - :puke:

[Piperay]

3. Self-Deleted

I was commenting on the wrong thing. :spank:

[Nay]

4. Then I'm a snob, too.

I also am sick of the nonsense available as "entertainment" and think that dumbing down people is not a good idea. We will be waiting a long time for anything to change, though. The desire of the human to latch onto trivialities isn't going away anytime soon.

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. The big dumbing down of America

Even the NYT seems to be writing shorter articles now than they were even ten years ago.

And I don't mind a bit of stupidity - mindless entertainment should always have its place. But when it becomes normative, then we have a problem.

We can definitely see it in the campaigns - the republicans love to use soundbites, take things out of context, and not really say much, but their followers believe that it is all, therefore, rational debate.

e.g., "My opponent says that unless the UN approves his actions, he won't take them; do you want your children killed by terrorists? I don't."

Nuance is verboten, reasoned, rational debate is verboten.

And of course, the huge swath of this country that is afraid of the intelligent people and looks down upon the "East Coast Elitist intellectuals" and the "artsy types".

The fact that there are publishers who are willing to publish books filled with lies, innacuracies, shoddy research, and false footnoting (such as Rush's, Coulter's, and O'Lielly's stuff), is also scary to me. I should expect, at the minimum, that a publisher would guarantee and check the footnotes, if nothing else. Apparently they don't; at least, not when printing rightwing shit.

And why does so much of our tax money go to support professional sports with stadiums and roads into stadiums and crap like that? The average sports dude goes to a $200 million taxpayer funded baseball stadium so he and his buddies can sit and watch the game and bitch and moan about how their tax money is being pissed away and used illegally for $10,000 subsidies to "ungodly art" or, perhaps, they will all simply agree that the government has no right subsidizing any art at all. "If they can't make money as an artist, then there shouldn't be a government handout for it." and then later, "Hey - why doesn't the city put in better seats? This is ridiculous."

But, a dumb people are a docile people. And I'm sure we can thank the republican party for helping that initiative along, along with a lot of others. The Red Scare was certainly an early appearance of the beginning of mistrusting and scorning smart people and an embracing of the banal and inconsequential.

[qnr]

8. Count me in. n/t

[lazarus]

9. Well

You seem to be falling victim to a classic exclusionary fallacy.

For instance, I love Survivor. Absolutely love it. Amazing Race, too. And I enjoy Big Brother.

In between shows, I've been known to read Shakespeare. I'm currently also reading a book, "Gotham", that's a history of New York City up to the 1890's. Oh, and a book by the Dalai Lama.

How boring the world would be if we all liked the same stuff, or if we all fit neatly into classifications.

BTW, there has never been a day when Nobel and Pulitzer winners were "popular". Yeah, they were popular amongst the literate elite, but the masses have always had their own entertainment. And some of it is quite entertaining.

I find my life much richer because I'm able to appreciate entertainment from all segments of society. (I like sports, too.)

[qnr]

10. That's why they make them. Still think they're a waste of time,

but I say that with the realization that it is only my opinion.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. read my post 6, I answer your questions there

stuff I didn't say in the first post, especailly about the existence of mindless entertainment.

And I know the Nobel and Pulitzer winners have never been popular. Doesn't mean I can't hope for the day when it DOES become important to the masses.

[Pithlet]

12. Dumb, mindless entertainment has been around forever.

All you have to do is watch TVLand for proof. :silly:

Seriously, I understand the frustration that these things aren't important. But, I think that people forget that it has pretty much always been that way. People love the mindless fun.

I'm a science fanatic. It's always fascinated me as long as I can remember. I even won a science fair when I was 9. But, I watch and enjoy Survivor. So, I'm used to the abuse on DU by now ;)

[Rabrrrrrr]

14. Just because that's how it's always been doesn't mean it should continue

Mindless fun IS fun -- once in a while. Or as a respite.

But it's time to end the normalization of it, and time for the human species - at least Homo Americanus - to evolve.

[Pithlet]

16. I don't agree.

Why should people have to stop doing something they enjoy? Who decides what is acceptable, and which has to go? For example, how much stuff should I read and watch for fun, and how much should I read and watch for education? And why can't I have both? Should that ratio depend on how smart I am, or how much education I've had? And, the stuff I decide to watch for fun, just how much more or less mindless should it be? People, for whatever reason, like to escape. I don't think you CAN change that. I don't even know if you should.

[Rabrrrrrr]

19. If you'd read more closely, you'd see that I never said we shouldn't have

mindless entertainment. Hell, I go for it sometimes - you're right, people do need to escape at times.

I'm calling for end of the celebration of stupidity and mindlessness. And end to a celebration and elevation of the banal, over the important and good.

Imagine a society in which all people are truly educated to think, to observe, to form logical conclusions, and to acknowledge the importance of art; a society in which reasoned debate happens; a society in which the news doesn't need to be delivered at a fourth or fifth grade level; imagine a society in which people read books, watched TV shows, and watched movies of quality and substance. Idealistic? Maybe, but why not strive for more, rather than just resign and accept what is?

Mindless stuff is fine.

But I am unhappy, and feel a need to speak out against, a society in which mindlessness isn't considered mindlessness, but is considered "just being normal".

[Heddi]

20. But at some point, no matter how "enlightened" society is,

there is ALWAYS going to be a low-brow entertainment that will be popular.

100% of the earth could be made up of people who had no less than an IQ of 210, but there would STILL be an interest in fart-joke, banal, mindless entertainment--be it movies, art, music, writing.

I'm exceedingly smart (and I do say so myself). I excell in my classes, have a 3.89 GPA in my pre-req class work (biology, chem, anatomy, physiology, microbiology just to name a few). I am well read, as are my husband and nearly all of our friends. We all have higher degrees (most have multiple degrees). We all boycott Walmart and protest at Anti-War rallies. We rarely watch TV and enjoy the company of others to the company of the vaccuum tube.

We talk art, politics, literature, philosophy, math, science. We are smart people.

But you know what---I love Survivor and Amazing Race. Abso-fucking-lutely love them. I actually am growing tired of Survivor but have a particular love deep in my soul for Amazing Race.

I make no appologies for it. Never have, never will. The two shows I happen to watch---the two non-news, non-informational, non-educational shows I watch---yes, they are banal, lizard-brain entertainment. That's why I watch them.

I can only be serious SO many hours of the day. I can only be intense and outraged and worked-up and protest-minded for so long. Sometimes, I just want to watch people make fools out of themselves (in the case of Survivor) for a million dollars. Other times, I want to watch people race around the world in a game that's 99% luck and 1% skill (in the case of Amazing Race).

It's okay that I do it, and it's okay that millions of others do it.

We are not on the precipice of the collapse of civilization because of it.

The Romans had Gladiators. Grown men fighting each other, as well as the occasional wild animal. Why? FOR PURE LIZARD-BRAIN PLEASING ENTERTAINMENT.

There is always going to be a demand for lower-level entertainment. If it's not the slipping on a bananna peel or a pie in the face, it's going to be Christina Aguillera or Survivor.

It's part of human nature. In my eyes, I'm a better person because I allow myself, and my fellow Americans to be dumb once in a while. Light farts....whatever. When the mindless entertainment-mentality is spread to other areas of life--yes, that's a problem. But watching Survivor isn't the end all, be all of us.

Believe it or not, you DO live in a society where people are educated to think, to observe, and to form logical conclusions. People acknowledge the importance of art. Reasoned debate happens (although not always within the convenience of a television camera). The news is delivered on a fourth grade level because sadly, so many in our society aren't educated. Many can't be educated beyond that level. News shouldn't just be for the elite---it should be at the level of "everyman". People DO read books here. They DO watch TV shows and movies of quality and substance.

Just because ALL forms of entertainment aren't your idea of quality (and this is basically what it comes down to) doesn't mean that ALL forms of entertainment lack quality.

You think Survivor sucks. Great. Bully for you. I, and millions of other americans (many of whom are on DU) don't think so. We don't think that watching ONE hour long show a week makes us stupid, dumb, dull-witted, or less intelligent than someone who would never dare utter a laugh at a fart joke, or giggle at a beer commercial, lest they appear to be 'common' :eyes:

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. You have said that I said a few things, which I did not say

I did not say that Survivor sucks.

Alos, if you had read my posts, you would realize that never did I imply that all lowbrow mindless entertainment needs to be gotten rid of. I've said that repeatedly. In fact, I feared for my safety from laughing so heartily to the point that I couldn't breath during the Beavis and Butthead movie.

Nor did I say that civilization was on the precipice of collapse because of it.

And never did I say that watching one hour long show a week of mindless entertainment makes anyone stupid.

What I am saying - and what I have been saying - is that we (in America) have taken the diversionary mindless entertainment and made it fairly normative.

you said The news is delivered on a fourth grade level because sadly, so many in our society aren't educated.

I heartily agree with that - I said the same in another post.

Many can't be educated beyond that level.

Here's where I disagree - I think people CAN be educated. But in order for it to happen on a systematic and large-scale basis, the society itself has to embrace the value of education - and embrace education beyond a rote-skills level or knowledge-needed-to-do-a-job level, which is how much of our public education is done today.

There's no reason that a country in which almost everyone graduates from high school couldn't have the news delivered at a 12th grade level. Except that as a country we have basically decided that education and knowledge are suspect, to be feared, and to be ridiculed and belittled.

Does that mean everyone is uneducated? No, obviously it doesn't. Most of us here are educated, enough to realize that, while Beavis and Butthead or Survivor or Mr. Ed are fun and good escapes from the grind of the day and a time to let the mind rest, there's a huge ass portion of this country who believe that there is not much to life beyond those; people who couldn't give a rat's ass about Nobel winners, or pulitzers, or Focault, or nuances in issues, or opening one's mind to things that are different, and on and on and on.


You said News shouldn't just be for the elite---it should be at the level of "everyman". People DO read books here. They DO watch TV
shows and movies of quality and substance.

Of course, until we decide as a country that being educated - to think, not just to regurgitate information - our news will need to be continued to be dumbed down. As you say, people have a right to the news, and shouldn't be excluded. And in the meantime, the thinkers will go to the Economist and the Guardian and the NYT and The Nation and Christian Century and the few other thinking news sources for a more reasoned and indepth look into the issues, while our compatriots slather themselves in NY Post headlines about actresses' breasts and faileed marriages and the latest homocides.

And yes, people do read books and do watch TV shows of quality. But note how rarely they get national attention, and how rarely they get talked about around the water cooler.

I'm simply trying to envision a world that is better and more evolved. A world in which more people are thinking, more reasoned debate occurs, more appreciation for and interest in and curiosity about things is shown and exemplified in its leaders and not considered stupid or sissified. Doesn't mean it can't have Beavis and Butthead, or Survivor. Just means that everyone knows they are diversions.

[Pithlet]

21. Okay. I see what you're saying.

I don't know if the existence of shows like Survivor are necessarily a sign of that, though. I think the fact that these types of things have been around forever are a sign that we're going to be okay. In other words, I don't think that mindlessness is being normalized, because there are still plenty of things in the media (both print and otherwise) that aren't mindless. I just think that media has expanded, so there is more room for the mindless stuff. But it also makes room for the better stuff, too. Remember, we didn't have The Science Channel, Discovery Kids, A&E, Noggin (educational stuff for toddlers), etc.

[Pithlet]

13. TV has improved.

No, wait, stay with me. I would have laughed, too, until I TiVoed an old show that I thought my kid would love. Mr. Ed. It's got a talking horse. Cute.

Well, I watch this drek with him. The main plot doesn't even involve the horse. It's about the husband, who gets a new secretary who is Japanese. Funny accent, kimono, the whole bit. His WASP wife gets jealous, dresses up with the kimono and wig, and tries to cook him sushi. I'm not making this up.

So, nothing on TV right now could possibly be as bad as that.

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. Yes, there were definitely some awful shoes in the way back

And there have been some extraordinary TV shows in the last decade - Star Trek, X-Files, ER, Cheers, Frasier. Apparently Law and Order is quite good, though I've never seen one. And on the independant channels, we have Family Guy, South Park, Sopranos, that Comedy Central "news" show at 10 pm with John Stewart (Brilliant!) etc.


So yeah, there is some good stuff.

And there was indeed some awful stuff in the past. I used to love Mr. Ed, but I don't know if I could watch it now. Same with I Dream of Jeanie, Brady Bunch, and Gilligan's Island.

[Pithlet]

17. Law and Order used to be good.

It got too headline of the week-ish.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

18. You are expecting too much from mass entertainment.

By definition, it is lowest common denominator stuff. It can't be anything else, or it would not sell soap, and that, is its purpose. Never forget that.
We are not talking serious critique or philosophy or religion here.
It is pablum.

Nothing to see here, move along.