Got in an argument with a Baptist pastor today . . .

[knitter4democracy]

They started it!

No, seriously, they did. Yesterday, someone from his church (a half hour away almost in the middle of nowhere, mind you) put a flyer on our door after knocking first. Since I was trying to get my kids to stay down for their nap, I didn't go to the door, and boy, am I glad I didn't. Anyway, when I read the flyer, I got so mad! It wasn't just a thing on their church, where it is, their service times, and an invitation. Oh no. They had to put their list of steps to salvation on the back--just in case it might work just by reading it and feeling guilty or something. I was so mad at how stupid it was and the nerve of someone assuming everyone reading the flyer wasn't a Christian and/or happy with his or her faith, that I actually called up their pastor this morning.

Well, let's just say he was a total jerk. When I asked him why anyone would waste time and money on the least effective means of promoting the faith, he triumphantly told me that it was what the apostles did in the Bible. I responded that they lived in Jerusalem at the time (didn't drive half an hour away to talk to leave pamphlets on doors)--and then he starts in on me how I must not believe the Bible is the Word of God. I started in on him, and it got ugly. My husband and I are converts to Eastern Orthodox Christianity (from the Church of the Nazarene, a Weslyan-based evangelical church), and I wasn't about to take any crap from this guy. At least he didn't tell me that I was going to hell, but he came darn close. You should have heard his explanation of how we didn't really have a church after A.D. 330 until the Reformation (whatever) and how the Bible wasn't really put together by the Church (double whatever). He was practically foaming at the mouth by the time we finished.

It had been a long time since I had argued with a Fundie, and I can't really say I enjoyed it. Honestly, and I told him this, his bizarro explanations of Church history take more faith than I have. I would rather believe something a little more logical (not that we Orthodox are known for logic--we're more into mystery).

I would put money on it that he's telling all his followers to vote for Bush. Seriously, I can totally understand why some people never become Christians if they've ever dealt with someone as closed-minded as that.

[Maat]

1. I get into arguments with them all of the time.

I fall along the Unitarian-Universalist/Religious Science lines - liberal churches that allow each parishioner to define their path to the Great Spirit (the Truth). I, for example, believe that Jesus was a Master Teacher, but no more devine than anybody else on Earth.

Anyway, my neighbor always tries to convert me, arrogantly assuming I'm not complete.

So, I know how you feel.

But I though Nazarene parishioners were evangelicals, no? Isn't Dr. James Dobson (a rather horrible right-wing politician disguising himself as a 'minister'/psychologist) a son of a Nazarene minister? I looked it up, and it states that in his biography. I don't mean to offend, but, since you are a cool fellow DUer, I thought I'd get some clarification.

[knitter4democracy]

2. Nazarenes are evangelicals

They follow the theology of Wesley, rather than John Calvin like some other evangelical and most other fundamentalist churches. Don't even get me started on Dobson--cannot stand that creep.

My husband and I went to one of the Nazarene colleges and met there. While there (not the best years of my life but bearable due to awesome friends and a couple wonderful profs), we both started thinking that we needed to be somewhere else. After a lot of prayer and research, we decided to go Eastern Orthodox. It's not a perfect church, by any stretch, but it's where we feel comfortable. At least the Orthodox tend not to get so rigidly dogmatic; we feel that much of our faith is a mystery, and who are we to judge, anyway? Not that there aren't plenty of Orthodox who get kinda fundie on us, but most are much more understanding and not quite so quick to get in someone's face.

Now that I'm not evangelical anymore, it does seem weird that I ever was. It's almost cult-like.

[blackcat77]

14. My first wife's family were very devoted Nazarenes

I don't bunch them in with the nutball fundamentalists. I don't agree with everything they do, but they aren't radicals like the southern baptists. I was saved in the Nazarene church and spent some time with them but -- without going into great detail -- I sort of outgrew their brand of Christianity and now I'm a Catholic, which is a faith that doesn't discourage people from approaching religion from an intellectual, rather than just an emotioinal direction.

If it wouldn't be asking too much, did you attend Olivet? My first wife's sister attended there for a while back in the 70s...

[knitter4democracy]

16. They aren't fundies, but some aren't far from it

No, but my in-laws did in the early seventies. I'll bet they know her. We went to Mount Vernon, one of the newer ones, and it was a bit traumatic, honestly.

That was one of our issues--the constant emotionalism. You should have to go to college chapel three times a week and watch preacher after preacher cry . . .:eyes:

[blackcat77]

23. They probably did know her...

If you get the chance, ask them if they remember a girl named Lois from Mitchell, Indiana.

[knitter4democracy]

26. I will! nt

[donheld]

31. Knitter i know where you're coming from

The Bible Missionary Church is the Church i was raised in. It broke away from the Nazarenes when the Nazarenes started letting the women cut their hair and letting people watch TV. Now that Church is falling a part because some want to forbid the internet.
:eyes: :crazy: :eyes: :crazy: :eyes: :crazy: :eyes: :crazy: :eyes: :crazy:

[knitter4democracy]

33. That sounds about right

We had just started being allowed to play with face cards when I went to college. It really is kinda funny when you think about it.

You must know the old joke then: they're against premarital sex because it leads to dancing! :)

[NuttyFluffers]

3. i find it fascinating the new denoms are the most reactionary

catholicism and orthodox christianity seem a little bit more sane than the newer denominations popping up from the protestant reformation. wonder what the hell is going on over there? how are they glossing over huge tracts of history?

sometimes i really believe the bible belongs in that class of books that requires a talented teacher before it is put into the hands of people. the whole reformationist idea that all you have to do is read it and be saved baffles me. i always knew there were simple minds out there that'd come up with kooky interpretations if left unguided, things like 'it's the direct word of god, unadulterable, inalterable, perfectly translated, etc' or 'evangelism means getting up into everyone's face and smothering them with flyers, preachings, and bible thumping' or other annoying stuff. whatever... maybe protestantism is going through the 'growing phase' all religions seem to go through after inception and after major social change. but they are following a familiar and failed path of unquestioning faith devoid of any critical thinking like what gave catholicism a dark history.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. Part of it is no "quality control" on their clergy

To join the Lutheran, Episcopal, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox clergy, you have to attend the equivalent of graduate school in theology, studying the Bible in a scholarly fashion, often including the ancient languages, as well as philosophy, psychology, church history, and other academic subjects.

In some of the fundamentalist denominations, you go to a "Bible college," where you get indoctrinated into your denominations interpretations of The Absolute Truth.

In other fundamentalist denominations, you don't even do that. You're a minister if you say you are.

[realisticphish]

9. my lutheran pastor

can speak and read greek, latin, german, and swedish. the most you could get out of most fundies is tongues

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[realisticphish]

6. read and be saved?

are you referring to Reformationists, as in lutherans, etc? cause let me assure you, thats NOT what we think. you may be referring to modern reformers, like the more revent evangelical churches, im just curious. but i DO agree with you about the wierd bible-thumping resurgance. also, catholicism and orthodox christianity may or may not be more sane, but they are a LOT better at keeping a blank facade regardless of whats happening inside

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[knitter4democracy]

12. Ooh, amen!

Yes, we're quite good at hiding pretty much anything, but there are also a lot of good, loving Christians in our church, too.

The older, mainline Protestant churches are much more tolerant and much more sane in their theology, I think--and still very liturgical, which might be why they are the way they are.

[realisticphish]

18. o, hey, no disrespect intended

i didnt mean all catholics were unchristian, or anything. and yeah, we (Lutherans)(at least the ELCA) are a LOT more liturgical, singing back to the pastor after he sings lines, etc. and pipe organs. i love the old-style churches. as someone said, Lutherans are Catholics without the guilt:)


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[knitter4democracy]

20. None taken!

I thought it was funny and insightful, actually. So you're ELCA? My college mentor left the college and became an ELCA pastor. She's so awesome, and her church is lucky to have her.

[realisticphish]

24. yeah

my grandfather and aunt are both ELCA pastors. only psychos join the Missouri Synod...:)


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[knitter4democracy]

25. LOL!

Hey, did you catch the riff on that on Prarie Home Companion a couple of weeks ago? I was laughing so hard I was crying (had a Missouri synod friend in college, so I knew some of both sides).

[realisticphish]

28. no, unfortunately

being a college student, im usually asleep when PHC is on. i need to go find the streaming version of it. have you heard the lutherans guide to the orchestra? my mother is a music teacher, and she absolutely loves that bit

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[knitter4democracy]

32. That one's hilarious!

I love that one--see, none of us are all that different from each other. :)

[knitter4democracy]

8. I asked him about that

I asked him where he got his Bible from if there was no real church. He started saying it was put together by "godly men"--right, and that wasn't the Church or anything. He then started trying to explain St. Constantine to me (totally getting everything wrong), and that's about when I lost it. I told him to actually read things that aren't directly from his church, and he got all mad that I would think that he hadn't. (He hadn't.) He even started casting up his education, saying, "Oh, so you've read more than I have? You know all the names of every single bishop who went to those councils of yours? You know everything that ever happened?" I just laughed at that one. I said that we do actually have the attendance records, thank you, and that two thousand years of church history should count for something. His response was that anything not in the Bible was automatically fallible and not to be trusted. I told him that didn't make sense, as he obviously had been taught how to interpret his Bible by someone in his church and that he had been taught which verses to highlight and which to ignore when it came to his church dogma. About then was when he ended the conversation.

Maybe the Protestants are going through some sort of growing phase. All I know is that someone like that in a position of power over vunerable people scares me.

[miss_kitty]

4. I'm sure he'll go off and pray for your salvation

the nerve :grr:

[Maat]

7. Thanks for the reminder, DUers, that we have to respect each..

other's faiths. But that doesn't mean that we can't explain things to each other.

Anyway, I relate to someone assuming that one's faith is just not good enough.

What irritates me is that, as I keep an eye on what my fundie relatives read on their websites, I see them couch their fundie-bullying (legislating their views into law, such as the Global Gag Rule) as 'religious freedom' and 'preserving religion in the public square.' What they really want to do is bully others into having to live by their views.

[realisticphish]

i definately agree

if they were really concerned about preserving religious freedom, they would voluntarily reduce as much as possible public intrusion by their churches

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[knitter4democracy]

11. Exactly!

That's exactly what they do. When you ask them if the shoe were on the other foot, if the government promoted Islam and Islamic values, they change their tune. What really gets me is when they claim they're persecuted. What a bunch of crap! In the immortal words of brian k. reese: I'm sick and tired of whiny Christians!

[realisticphish]

15. heres a great "letter" i found somewhere

its half joke/ half obvious; i send it to anyone who forwards me crap about prayer in schools (im a christian, and they assume that means i like forcing my faith on people)


Dear John,

As you know, We've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in our schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get the old devil-inspired ruling reversed.

Naturally, we were all excited by the school board action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.

After the first day of school, I asked him "How did the prayer time go?"

"Fine."

"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"

"Two".

"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"

"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."

"Oh? Like how?"

"She said, 'Hail Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"

The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudiced against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy bein transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.

At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross- legged, closed his eyes, raised his hand palms up in the air and began to hum.

You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning. "Look," I said. 'I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable If you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices an older, more established religion."

That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.

"I don't think you're going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer either, Dad."

"Out with it."

"She kept chanting Namu Amida Butsu..."

The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot. "Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher who prays in Jesus' name!"

"What about Bertha Smith?"

"Excellent."

I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.

"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.

"Okay."

"Okay what?"

"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus' name, amen just like you."

I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting some place."

"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.

I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"

"Lets see..." he mused for a moment. "And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God."

We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said reaching for the door handle. Then paused. I couldn't place the scripture. "Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"

"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."

"Nephi what?"
"Nephi," he said. "It's in the Book of Mormon.

The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.

Best Wishes Always,
Dan

[Spiffarino]

29. That is a great "letter"

I just copied it and sent it to about 100 friends and family, some of whom are fundies. Most of the others will get it and agree completely, but I'm hopeful that they'll send it to their fundie friends, too. Some of these good folks are Baptists.

Many of us forget, or perhaps never knew, that Baptists were historically at the forefront of protecting the separation of religion and government. The Baptist church had a long and difficult history of government persecution before arriving in America. That many Baptists are suddenly turning 180 degrees in the other direction alarms me.

Of course, not all fundamentalists are Baptists. There are fundamentalist and evangelical Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, etc., etc. Baptists just happen to be a majority where I live so I tend to relate a little more.

[miss_kitty]

13. I just find it offensive that the OP is perfectly satisfied with her

religion, and this guy feels that it's not right because it's not his church.

It's really a personal subject, intimate, one's relationship with one's faith, and it's hardly a subject for a stranger to bring up, any more than a discussion of one's sex life is. Very impolite of the pastor. He needs to learn some manners.

[knitter4democracy]

19. That was partly why I was offended

Most Baptists think we Orthodox are going to Hell, so he was trying to get me to change to his church. I told him that I think all this proselytizing (trying to get converts from other churches, not truly new converts to Christianity) was actually Satan's work--a house divided cannot stand, can it?

[miss_kitty]

22. see, and from my extremely limited naive understanding of this whole thing

it's really not for any human to judge what will happen to another human in the afterlife. So it's not his business.

[knitter4democracy]

27. Thank you for that kind thought

I really must go to bed--daughter's preschool Halloween party's tomorrow a little too early for me. Thank you for such a loving, forgiving thought. Blessings.

[miss_kitty]

30. Thank You

And I hope you and your daughter have an excellent time at the party tomorrow! :)

[knitter4democracy]

10. LOL!

He probably did! That's kind of funny! Hey, I'll take all the prayers I can get right now.

[miss_kitty]

17. we can all use prayers!

I just feel his prayerfulness will be for you to come to Jesus his way.

I think a more Christ-like approach would be that you continue to have supreme satisfaction in your relationship with God, and true happiness in your life. I will send some of the latter your way in case he isn't! :)

[knitter4democracy]

21. Thanks!

I could definitely use that!