How do you feel about Hip-Hop in general?

[MirrorAshes]

Just curious. This new Eminem video has erupted a really strange argument in my house, my life-long democratic mother, generally as tolerant and socially accepting as they come, threw a fit and just not could not accept that it was a positive message, only repeating over and over that rap is terrible and she doesn't care what it has to say.

This reaction certainly surprised me quite a bit, I never knew just how deeply she despised rap music. I've seen so many posts here about the new video from people declaring that they have always hated Eminem or rap in general, but loved this video. I've read people compare him to Bob Dylan and even MLK.

So, how do you view hip-hop in general?

Personally, I'm a 23 year old white male. I am mostly into electronica and indie-rock, but I like quite a bit of underground hip-hop as well. I think there is a real intellectual revolution going on in the hip-hop community right now, and the culture is more vibrant and progressive as ever.

I believe Eminem has played a role in that, as he truly has helped break down the barrier between blacks and whites. The achilles heel, though, is that some people percieve the rap world to be full of mysoginistic homophobes who promote violence, sex, and drugs. This is of course true to some extent, but is also very misunderstood.

People have made mistakes, and Eminem is no different. But he, and others like him, seem to understand that they can do much more with their music. The limits of hip-hop have been broken down, and a radical new era of protest music is arriving with Eminem's call for whites and blacks to unite against George W Bush.

I, for one, am awed by the balls it took to make this song. Despite whatever your preconceived notions of hip-hop may be, it must be clear that it is a powerful medium and Eminem is a force to be reckoned with.

[Maple]

1. Out-of-date

Old-fashioned.

Soooo last century.

Boring.

[AlamoDemoc]

5. HIP HOP is something I have in common with the repug party

[Must_B_Free]

7. it is kind of passe

like Dr. Dre said in 2000 "Fuck Rap, you can have it back"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. I think it's a generational thing

Just as my parents could never "get" rock music or Doonesbury, I don't "get" hip hop.

[Sword of Whedon]

3. Eminem

Hip hop? It's a great medium

What Eminem does isn't hiphop. It's just him talking over a cheat unsophisticated backbeat. His lyrics are pedestrian, and his delivery sub-par. There is no rhythmn or rhyme to what he does, there's no musicality.

That and he's a bigot and a nasty little troll

He's made a video with a great visual message, but his lack of talent really shows on the music side.

[Must_B_Free]

10. Eminem is extremely talented

but his talent isn't what sells his records.

He can rhyme spur of the moment like nobody else in rap can.

Unfortunately, teenagers just buy his records to hear him say bad words. He's the Ozzy of his generation.

[MirrorAshes]

11. What? Have you actually ever listened to his music?

"What Eminem does isn't hiphop. It's just him talking over a cheat unsophisticated backbeat. His lyrics are pedestrian, and his delivery sub-par. There is no rhythmn or rhyme to what he does, there's no musicality."

That is completely and totally inaccurate.

[jdj]

67. I'm getting really tired of saying this,

but when I hear something like

"I do pop pills/I keep my tube-socks filled/I pop the same shit that got Tupac killed..."

I hear the work of a GENIUS. Get that?
People need to turn off the part of their mind that defines words and listen with the part of that JUST HEARS SOUND.

each line in that stanza has three syllables of rhyme (assonance), two internal, and the first two have FOUR.

As someone who has been devoted to poetry all my life and has struggled to write poems in regular masculine rhyme, I can attest to the fact that NORMAL PEOPLE CAN'T DO THIS. Not with that much ease, it takes a hell of alot of effort to make the last syllable of each line rhyme, which is all Dylan, the Jesus Christ to bohemian college students, ever accomplished, and his attitude toward women was not one bit better than Eminen's.

I have never been a fan, but his God-given poetic genius cannot be denied. The rap I quoted is off a Missy Elliot album I have, and I knew the minute I heard it what I was listening to, and anyone who is at all into poetry can appreciate this. He had an incredible amount of rage at women when he first came around, and he probably has sexual abuse issues which would explain his initial homophobia.(the Michael video may be touching on that.) I think people need to give him a chance.

Rap is not bad, rap is revolutionary. As for the OP, download the lyrics to "Keep your Head UP" by Tupac Shakur and give them to your Mom. That song is very pro-woman and very pro-choice. What part of this art form gets marketed entirely separate from the intent of the art form as a whole, and we the consumer have no control over marketing except to bust our asses to search out and support artists with a positive message. And Puffy Combs, he has done SO MUCH to get out the vote this year, the man is a saint, and he was one of the first backers and producers of gangsta rap. In the mid 90's he wrote "Ten years from now we'll still be on top". And he is, and like Eminem, he's trying to do something really positive, so people need to back off.

[mark414]

107. you watched the video

but did you turn the volume down?

did you hear his rhymes? his wordplay?

someone else said it below

NORMAL PEOPLE CAN'T DO THAT

even if he's rapping about killing his wife, he is still at the top of the game as far as his technical skills though

it's more than ok for people not to like him, but you can't deny his talent

[Starlight]

4. Hate hip hop, never liked Eminem, love this video

White female, age 47. Already downloaded this song to my ipod & preordered the cd. :)

[rockydem]

6. Eminem: 2002 Journalist of the Year (excellent essay)

As the countdown to the anniversary of the September 11th attacks begins, a lot of people will be claiming to speak for America. They will purport to tell us what it all meant, what it all means, and they will be mostly full of shit. If you are dreading this predictable spectacle as I am, click your TV off, "turn your head away from the screen" as the late Jeff Buckley sang, and tune in to the counter-discourse that more kids are listening to than any other in the Summer of 2002.

Based on measurable sales, more people are listening to this report than to any to new music album in history: The album is titled, "The Eminem Show."

Today, The Narco News Bulletin announces the First Annual Narco News Award for Journalist-of-the-Year to the author of the report-of-the-year, the singer-songwriter Marshall Mathers.

That a rapper has offered better, more accurate, and more detailed journalism on the State of the Union post-9/11 than those traditionally thought of as "journalists" is obviously a damning indictment of the media industry and its "journalistic" response to world events over the past 11 months.

http://www.narconews.com/eminem1.html

[SeveneightyWhoa]

8. Love it.

I've listened to rap for YEARS now, and have only recently become exposed to other types of music.

Most of the stuff you see on TV is garbage, but please don't let the mainstream stuff determine your view of the entire genre. That'd be like someone basing their opinion of all Americans on their current president*.



*If you're reading this before Nov. 2, I speak of George W. Bush.

[jdj]

68. why do you think this is??

I have read a book everyone should read called "Fist, Knife, Gun" (I don't have the author's name on hand) and in one of the chapters he quotes from a gun manufacturer document where it says that this particular industry felt it had "exhausted it's demographic" of rural white males, and was therefore planning to market guns to urban youth (read african-american and latino males). So then gun stores start popping up everywhere in poor neighborhoods. We've all heard the rumor of the CIA foisting crack and coke on the inner cities (if anyone has any links for this, please post) so it just seems suspicious to me what aspects of any art form the corporate white guys will throw their money behins. It's that Ani DiFranco lyric:

"people used to make music as an event/the event of people making music in a room/now its cross-marketing..it's about sunglasses and shoes/or guns and drugs, you choose."

I probably just slaughtered that lyric, but if political music is good art,why is Britney Jessica Duff or whatever her name is being crammed down our throats instead?

[Jim Sagle]

9. It sucks.

[AlamoDemoc]

17. I recall when Rap and this HIP-HAP crap came about

I was in college at the time.....LL Cool J came to visit my campus in Boston in 1986 (he performed Club lanesdown) with flashing Adidas outfit...however, at the time I never thought the idiot would come about to be famous...until years later I saw him on my television screen as televising comedian personality

Oh well....I guess you could say the same about Prince of Blair actor

[jdj]

70. Oh, you mean Will Smith?

the star of "Enemy of the State" and all the blockbuster movies.

this is the first thread on which I have really felt racism on DU.

It's killing me considering that the only legitimate forms of popular music white Americans (and Europeans) can lay a hand to are twangy country, and
well, shit I can't even think of another one.

truth be told, twangy country is probably a badly bastardized mix of scotch-irish folk tunes and black blues from the 20's and 30's. Country can't even do a song without a pedal steel guitar and that style of playing is straight from the blues.

Every other form of american music, EVERY BIT was either stolen straight from African-American singers and musicians, or is highly "derivative'.

Without African American influence, there would be NO Elvis, NO Beatles, NO Rolling Stones, nothing. Zip, Zilch, Nada.

Oh, punk, maybe, but without the expressive style of black musicians like litte Richard and James Brown who influenced this exuberance and go the ball rolling, probably not.

[mark414]

101. "you may dig on the rolling stones, but everything they did they stole"

(Huh) My grandmomma was raised on a reservation
(Huh) My great grandmomma was, from a plantation
They sang - songs for inspiration
They sang - songs for relaxation
They sang - songs, to take their minds up off that
fucked up situation
I am... yes I am... the descendant (yes yes)
of those folks whose, backs got broke
who, fell down inside the gunsmoke
(Black people!) Chains on they ankles and feet
I am descendants, of the builders of your street
(Black people!) Tenders to your cotton money
I am.. hip-hop
"It's heavy metal for the black people"
I am.. rock and roll (rock and roll.. rock'n'roll)
BEEN HERE FOREVER!
They just ain't let you know..

elvis presley ain't go no soul
chuck berry is rock'n'roll
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
But they ain't come up with that style on they own
Elvis Presley ain't got no SOULLLL
Little Richard is rock and roll
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
But they ain't come up with that shit on they own

Guess that's just the way shit goes
You steal my clothes and try to say they yo's (yes they do)
Cause it's a show filled with pimps and hoes
Tryin to take everything that you made or control (there they go)
Elvis Presley ain't got no SOULLLL
Bo Diddley is rock and roll (damn right)
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
But they ain't the first place the credit belongs

I ain't tryin to diss
but I don't be tryin to fuck with Limp Bizkit
"The fuck is on your mind?"
When I get down in my zone
I be rockin Bad Brains and Fishbone
I ain't tryin to slow your groove
But that ain't the way I'm tryin to move
I don't turn on Korn to get it on;
I be playin Jimi Hendrix 'til the dawn
That's my word is bond
Sittin up on my front lawn
Got the volume turned to ten
Playin Albert King the best again (black)
When the mornin in the cooker
Got to turn on some John Lee Hooker
When I want some rock and roll
Go to Otis Redding to get some soul

Say, James Brown got plenty of soul
James Brown like to rock and roll
He can do all the shit fo' sho'
that Elvis Presley could never know (black people)
Said, Kenny G ain't got no SOULLLL
John Coltrane is rock and roll (uh-huh)
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
but they could never ever rock like Nina Simone

Say whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-wee-ohh
(black music) whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-weee-ohhh
(black music) whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-weee-ohhh
(black music) whoah-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh

"ah-lert the squad.."

{*MUSIC PICKS UP PACE AND GETS LOUDER*}

Who am IIIIiiiiiiiiIiiiII, HUH!
GET YOUR PUNK ASS UP!
ELVIS PRESLEY AIN'T GOT NO SOUL
JIMI HENDRIX IS ROCK AND ROLL
YOU MAY DIG ON THE ROLLING STONES
BUT EVERYTHING THEY DID THEY STOLE
ELVIS PRESLEY AIN'T GOT NO SOUL
BO DIDDLEY IS ROCK AND ROLL
YOU MAY DIG ON THE ROLLING STONES
BUT WE SEND THEY PUNK ASS HOME
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii!!!
Say, rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
GET YOUR PUNK ASS UP!!!!!!!
Company, MOVE!!!
For Harlem, Fort Greene, Compton
East St. Louis, Detroit (BO BO)
Chicago (BO BO) Bed-Stuy (BO BO)
Flatbush (BO BO) Brownsville (BO BO)
East New York (BO BO) Newark New Jersey (BO BO)
Illadelphia Cincinatti Atlanta the Dirty South
All towns GET YOUR PUNK ASS UP!!
"Rock and roll for the black people"
Hi ma..

"Well that was just wonderful"

[mark414]

103. haha prince of blair

you'll have to forgive my laughing...

i think you mean prince of bel air

and folks are quick to jump to conclusions about will smith, whether positive or negative

the positive, people separate him from the rest of hip hop and say shit like "well why can't everyone else be nice like him?"

the negative, "oh he's just some pop rapper blah blah blah"

that being said, i don't like his new stuff much

but his old shit with jazzy jeff is CLASSIC

that on top of the fact that he and jeff were the first hip hoppers to win a grammy and they BOYCOTTED the awards because the grammy fuckers refused to show it on television

i give credit where credit is due, the fresh prince has done so much for hip hop

[AmerDem]

12. Well, I never got Hip Hop

or is it Rap or are they the same thing? When Rap music first started I really felt it was some kind of joke or comedy version of music. I don't say that out of disrespect it was what I many people I knew thought. I see now it has a great following and many people who have grown with it consider it a major part of their life. I think that's a good thing and respect it for all of those who appreciate it.

Actually it's probably the only music I don't listen to. It always reminded me of Dr. Seuss type nursery rhymes.

[MirrorAshes]

14. My view of Rap vs Hip-Hop...

which could be off-base, is that rap is more mainstream and tends to be more associated with gangster rap, and hip-hop is more about the more musical and poetic side of rap music. There is some really great under-ground hip-hop music that is all about positivity and creativity, problem is thats not the side that gets on the tv and the news very often =\

[rockydem]

13. I like hip-hop; I like Eminem

Hip-hop's lyrics are more immediate and more direct than most rock lyrics. In rock often everything gets abstracted and 'poetisized' to the point that some of the time you don't even know what the fuck they're talking about... It's almost like they're singing from some dream state. Some of it's really good, but it's just different from hip-hop.

Rap/hip-hop utilizes complex rhyme schemes, it requires mental agility and creativity - but it's more direct - it will speak to daily fears, daily struggles, political realities in a more raw, real way than seems capable in rock music (at least most of it).

There is some rock that reaches this level of immediacy - I think of Bob Dylan who had some great direct politcal songs (that still held up as art) - like "Masters of War".

[Jean Louise Finch]

15. I'm just getting into it

and really like it. I'm sort of an indie-folkie mellow music kind of person (though I really dig Sleater-Kinney and lots of electronic music), but I've been getting into some hip-hop quite a bit more lately, I've got a good friend who's pretty much obsessed and so I have the advantage of having things hand-picked. But even the main-stays: Tribe Called Quest, Blackalicious, the Roots, De La Soul, old Black-Eyed Peas; i think it's genius. It lacks the pretensiousness of so much of the electronic music scene, and I think it's where some of the most interesting things are happening with music.

Anyway, my two cents. I'd recommend people go back to these more classic old school hip hoppers and see if you don't come out on the other side.

[MirrorAshes]

16. agreed, good picks. I'll add a few...

Del the Funky Homosapien, Aesop Rock, Sage Francis, MF Doom...and of course, the masters, the Beastie Boys.

I think the Beastie Boys should be given as much if not more credit than Eminem for bringing whites into hip-hop. They are still the kings in my eyes.

[Jean Louise Finch]

26. Ahhh the Beasties

I also love the Beasties, but they sort of transcend genres in my mind...I'm sure they'd be appalled, but I really wouldn't call them hip hop. But they are fantastic geniuses and definitely should be applauded for doing quite a bit of hip-hop (and bluegrass, and death metal, and so on and so on).

I'm going to check out your list. I've never heard of Aesop Rock. Sweet!

[flvegan]

76. My favorites, and still going strong

Saw them live last Tuesday evening.

[AlbertoMo83]

18. I love Hip-Hop

As a 21-year-old Latino male I like all kinds of different types of music, but Hip-Hop is my #1 Love :loveya:. After all I am part of the "Hip-Hop generation" I grew up hearing it all time because of my cousins, so it's a big part of me. I'm into "socially conscious hip-hop" artists like Talib Kweli, Dead Prez, Mos Def, The Roots, Outkast, & Blackalicious. I can't think of a genre of music that's more powerful right now and thats more Anti-Bush. I mean to me the Hip-Hop Voter registration drives are to get young people to vote Bush outta office. :evilgrin: Watch on Nov. 2nd!!

[kwyjibo]

19. Depends on how you define the genre. I'd say I love hip hop...

but I don't like rap. I'm not an expert on either though so I can't say where one ends and the other begins, or if they're really just the same thing with two different names. I love the old school stuff like Run DMC and Sugarhill Gang, and the really laid back type of hip hop with intelligent lyrics and good beats like A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Digable Planets, Aceyalone, etc.

Then there's the stuff on the "hip hop" stations that I like to call fuck-rap, death-rap, and idiot-rap. These songs all sound alike, have the same tired old ugly beat, have INCREDIBLY stupid lyrics about either fucking, slapping that ass, :) driving a cadillac, shooting people, big booty hos, or being a pimp.

And I guess there's the semi-old school stuff like Dre, Snoop, Ice Cube, and everything else that I heard in junior high. I loved it then so there's the nostalgia factor, although I couldn't get into Dre's type of lyrics today.

I definitely agree with you about the intellectual revolution.. Some people automatically discount hip hop as stupid because of stereotypes, and they consider rappers to have no talent. They don't understand the wits that it takes to come up with rhymes, especially to improvise/freestyle. That makes hip hop such an exciting style of music. What other genre gathers people together specifically to get them on stage and make up something brilliant right there in front of a crowd full of people? Jam bands maybe, but playing music is different than coming up with lyrics.

[MirrorAshes]

21. right on...

I especially like the jamband analogy. I used to see Phish all the time, and you're right, there is something special about improvisation like that.

[kwyjibo]

29. Phish broke my heart :(

I didn't discover them until '99 so I only got to see five shows. Luckily, I was at Big Cypress, so I feel really blessed to have been a part of it. I didn't see any of the shows after they started up again though, and when I realized I never would see them again, it was so disheartening. Being at a Phish show is one of the happiest experiences anyone could have.

I can't wait for the 2020 reunion. You know it's gonna happen.

[MirrorAshes]

30. oh yeah!

Great that you got to see Big Cypress. I was there too. Saw them 58 times between '95 and '04. BC, and a handful of others, were right at the top though. That was a truly magical weekend.

As for the reunion...hell, I wouldn't surprised if it doesn't happen alot sooner than that. Trey just has to get the desire back, and if he does, it'll happen.

[Must_B_Free]

31. Phish always left me disappointed

As a dead fan it seemed like they tried to build on the concept of the Dead, but at the same time pretending that they weren't standing in the shadow of the Dead. Hey - that's all fine, but as a jam band, I felt they couldn't hold a candle to the Dead, because they lack any little bit of soul.

Most of their songs are in cut time which is ungroovable - it might be fine if you're on jittery speedy type of drug, but it has no natural groove - just a 1-2 hop... whereas the dead's rhythmic patterns much longer, phrase wise. There is much more diversity in the Grateful Dead repertoire

Jerry had true soul. Jerry could play a ballad, for example. Phish's song's are juvenile like someones college thesis (oops, I guess much of their "mythology" IS from Trey's college thesis). As musicians, they are all too academic, like conservatory players who technically know who to play from their lessons, but never found a unique identity that comes from paying your dues. Every song is at a full dynamic blazing peak, there's no real dynamics because of that.

So, as a deadhead I somewhat resent the cheap knockoff that Phish sells in place of the real deal. Kind of like how Rusted Root's whole sound is like a rip off of one tiny aspect of the Talking Heads and yet they've made a career of it.

I have seen Phish many times and i always wished it was someone real instead of some wannabe cover band in denial of their teacher.

[The Traveler]

32. Hip Hop

is poetry with background music, and Eminem is a master of the art.

It is street poetry, the poetry of the common man and woman. Think Shakespeare, who wrote for the masses of his time. No one thought that would be eternal literature ... but every high school student has to read Shakespeare now, and should.

Eminem rarely moves me, but when he does he does so powerfully. "Mosh" is the most recently powerful. Put on those black hoods, people ... the message is more important than the messenger.

[jdj]

73. thank god someone else gets it.

I can't listen to his "rape my mother/kill my wife" stuff, but his talent is undeniable.

[MirrorAshes]

34. Hey, the Dead are definately kings...

But I disagree with most of what you said about Phish. Yes, many of their songs were juvenile and strange, but that was part of the allure and mystery. And they did indeed have quite a bit of soul. Not like Jerry, but it was there. There were several Phish songs that could rip your heart out, and some could do it with no lyrics whatsoever. Some of Trey's compositions are the works of true genius.

Plus, Phish hit musical highs that the Dead never could. The Dead had many aspects that Phish could never touch also, but Phish jammed with an intensity and focus that was truly next-level.

I run an internet radio station dedicated to a jamband called Brothers Past, who play with the intensity of Phish, write songs with the depth and emotion of the Grateful Dead (though the songs are more indie-rock influenced then folk), and incorporate an advanced electronic edge into the music. These guys are going to be huge one day, tune and listen if you'd like to hear.

www.bpradio.net

[Must_B_Free]

52. I like some of their songs

but many I find quite annoying. I find their vocal style too nasal. They take themselves so seriously it's a joke. I just saw a docu this weekend on Phish and Trey was talking about the band being a religion to people. Please Trey, get over your fucking self. You're no Jerry and you never will be.

intensity? too much intensity. Focus? it's called arrangement. The dead were too spontaneous and inconsistent to be able to successfully pull off an arrangement consistently - therein was the magic.

Let's face it. Phish started as a Dead cover band and they deny that root. Do they even do ANY dead songs? The dead did covers and they were original and honest about it. They played their first song, Don't Ease Me In, their entire career. Many of their songs go back to other eras and styles which makes their musical legend transcend time as an integral part of the American experience. Plus the dead are intricately tied into the LSD experiment and the the spawn of modern humanist culture - something Phish can never replicate no matter how they try.

Too many of Phish's jams are frantic "look at me" type of playing. It's all very contrived and their entire aspect of spontaneity is ripped from the Dead concept. The rest is various tributes to their other favs - Zappa, Miles, etc, etc under the guise of being original.

Too pretentious. I'll take a star that became through a personal act of self realization over some wanna-be any day. All of their shit is a ripoff sub spawn of the dead - the parking lot scene - patchwork smock dresses, dank nugs in blown glass... All a subset of the Grateful Dead experience. No credit given where its due. For example Phishman's vaccuum cleaner playing? Rip off:

(as well as the fact that both the Captain and Frank Zappa used vacuum cleaners as instruments on stage!)
http://www.geocities.com/uheep2/cb2.htm

[MirrorAshes]

58. Frankly, I think your jaded view of Phish is seriously misguided.

You sound as if you wrote them off years ago without really listening to a whole lot of their music. You are welcome to your own personal distaste for them, but some of the claims you make are simply innacurate.

"intensity? too much intensity. Focus? it's called arrangement. The dead were too spontaneous and inconsistent to be able to successfully pull off an arrangement consistently - therein was the magic."

Phish ventured far beyond the normal confines of their songs nightly, I'm not sure where you got the idea that they were mostly arranged. Many songs started with a theme that would gradually change and evolve, and eventually either lead into the end of the song, into a segue, or far out enough into space that they'd just bring it to a quiet conclusion because there was nowhere else to go. Phish was constantly experimenting--there was plenty of magic with Phish. I've felt it.

"Let's face it. Phish started as a Dead cover band and they deny that root. Do they even do ANY dead songs?"

They do not deny that root at all, and yes in fact they have played Dead songs before. The first time, which by the way still remains my favorite concert of all time, was 8/9/98 at the VA Beach ampetheater. They encored with Terrapin Station in honor of the anniversary of Jerry's passing. It was one of the single most emotional experiences in my life, everyone in the place was laughing, crying, and hugging eachother. I still get chills up my spine every time I hear it on tape, the roar of the crowd is deafening. Bob Weir and Phil Lesh also came onstage with Phish in '99, playing Viola Lee Blues and Cold Rain and Snow. Trey and Page were also invited to be a part of Phil and Friends for a 3 night run at the Warfield. I don't think they have denied that root at all.

"All of their shit is a ripoff sub spawn of the dead - the parking lot scene - patchwork smock dresses, dank nugs in blown glass... All a subset of the Grateful Dead experience."

And Phish themselves are responsible for this how? The scene is a result of the crowd, not the band themselves. I really don't see how you can accuse them of stealing a culture that decided to embrace them on their own.

I'm sorry you never got to enjoy Phish, because you really missed out on something special.

[kwyjibo]

111. Let's not be overly critical..

Phish's music, while some of it I have to say is absolutely brilliant, isn't about being the pinnacle of musical arrangement. People listen and go to their shows (or went) because it makes them feel good. Can't it just be that simple?

Does it have to be perfectly original and without flaw for it to be enjoyable and exciting?

I think it's unfair or maybe just a mistake to expect one thing (however closely related) to be as good as your favorite thing. If you can't help but wish you were at a Dead show every time you're at a Phish show without just being able to enjoy the experience, that's unfortunate.

[Mojambo]

20. Respect it as an art form

It's just not for me.

[mark414]

102. Thank you

someone with enough sense to say what you did

[EEgrad2003]

22. Hip Hop is...

a powerful voice of a generation. Sometimes, people exploit that voice and put stuff that sounds like crap, but, that's in any form of music. A lot of people only hear the negative and profanity laced words or verses and NEVER pay attention to the positive things that are said in other songs. Most people that are critical of the form never really give it a chance to prove how articulate, intellectual, prophetical, or even profound it can be. For every verse that people find profane of an artist, they never give any credit for the allegories or word play that some artist use. They're always quick to point out "F* this, F* that", than as song that explains the mindset of the younger generation. It's a voice a lot of older people don't want to listen to.

[UpsideDownFlag]

23. there's a time and a place for rap music.

time: whenever i'm not around

place: away from me.

[jdj]

71. gross.

[DoctorMyEyes]

24. Like Hip Hop - Love Eminem!

Middle aged suburban white woman here with adult bi-racial children.

I'd always liked rock and r&b, blues...everything but country western, really. My kids (when they were teenagers) were buying rap and hip hop. I didn't care for it at first. Maybe because it was so different? I thought it was simplistic.

But as I listened more and more I acquired a taste for it. I think Wu Tang Clan (specifically Method Man) started the "turnaround".

I loved Tupac and was truly broken-hearted when he died. Emmit Till kept popping into my mind, but I wasn't sure why my subconcious was making such a connection until Nikki Giovanni (apparently feeling much the same) spelled it out for me in her poem "All Eyez on U".

I've always liked Eminem and defended him to tight assed liberals and conservatives alike. People have a knee jerk reaction to him without really understanding the rawness of his art. Eminem exposes himself, and often us - with every knarly knot on his soul. He raps about things most of us have conditioned ourselves to not even be able to acknowledge. He's gifted and eloquent. Provocation is his medium. He's a genius.

I hope some people who are now listening because he's telling them what they want to hear will stick around and listen to the rest - and maybe actually HEAR it - finally. Eminem is an "embedded reporter" - don't shoot the messenger.

[JSJ]

25. like the hip- hate the hop

[Must_B_Free]

27. Hip Hop beat was actually invented by John Bonham of Led Zeppelin

He was the first to play the kick drum like that... "When the Levee Breaks", for example.

Larry Graham, the bass player from Sly and the Family Stone, invented Funk.

[DoctorMyEyes]

28. I didn't know that!

And I'm quite the Zeppelin fan, too.

I do believe that The Last Poets were the first "rappers". I did like their stuff in the 1970's. It was political and it was HARSH. If you've never heard it, I really recommend finding some online to check out.

I just googled up Nikki Giovanni's poem to Tupac. She says it all much better than I ever could.

All Eyez On U
(for 2Pac Shakur 1971-1996)

as I tossed and turned unable to achieve sleep unable to control anxiety unable to comprehend why
2Pac is not with us

if those who live be the sword died be the sword there would be no white men on the earth
if those who lived on hatred died on hatred there would be no KKK
if those who lived by lies died by lies there would be nobody on wall
street in executive suits in academic offices instructing the young
don't tell me he got what he deserved
he deserved a chariot and the accolades of a grateful people
he deserved his life
it is as clear as a mountain stream as defining as a lightning strike
as terrifying as sun to vampires
there were those who called it dirty
gansta rap inciting there were those who never wanted to be
angry at conditions but angry at the messenger who reported:
your kitchen has roaches your toilet is over flowing you basement has so much water the rats are in the living room your house is in disorder
and 2Pac told you about it
what a beautiful boy graceful carriage melodic voice sharp wit intellectual breadth
what a beautiful boy to loose
not me
never me
I don't believe east coast west coast
I saw them murder Emmett Till I saw them murder Malcolm X
I saw them murder
Martin Luther King
I witnessed them shooting Rap Brown I saw them beat LeRoi Jones
I saw them fill there jails I see them burning churches
not me
never me
I do not believe this is some sort of mouth action
This is some sort of political action and they picked well
they picked the brightest freshest fruit from the tallest tree
what a beautiful boy
but he will not go away
as Malcolm did not go away
as Emmett Till did not go away
your shooting him will not take him from us
his spirit will fill our hearts
his courage will strengthen us for the challenge
his truth will straighten our backbones
you know, Socrates had a mother
she too watched here son drink hemlock
she too asked why
but Socrates stood firm and would not lie to save himself
2Pac has a mother
the lovely Afeni had to bury her son
it is not right
it is not right that this young warrior is cut down
it is not right for the old to bury the young
it is not right
this generation mourns 2Pac as my generation mourned Till as we all mourn Malcolm
this wonderful you warrior
Sonia Sanchez said when she learned of his passing she walked all day
walking the beautiful warrior home to our ancestors I just cried as all
mothers cry for the beautiful boy who said he and Mike Tyson would
never be allowed to be free at the same time who told the truth about
them and who told the truth about us who is our beautiful warrior
there are those who wanted to make him the problem
who wanted to believe if they silenced 2Pac all would be quiet on the ghetto
front there are those who testified that the problem wasn't the conditions
but the people talking about them
they took away band
so the boys started scratching they took away gym
so the boys started break dancing the boys started dancing the boys started rapping
cause they gave them the guns and the drugs but not the schools and libraries
what a beautiful boy to loose
and we mourn 2Pac Shakur and we reach out to his mother and we
hung ourselves in sadness and shame
and we are compelled to ask:
R U Happy, Mz Tucker? 2Pac is gone
R U Happy?

[Must_B_Free]

36. last poets is more like spoken art

I'm sure there was some form of Rap going back to the early jazz era. Like Cab Calloway... In the Brando movie "The Wild Ones", one of the hoods in the small town bar does a jivey type of rap and that's 1950s.

Many of the things int he black mainstream market go back to another era. I always thought "Fly" was a new term at the time of In Living Color, but I forgot the movie "SuperFly". Duh!

It would be interesting - you'd have to define specifically what is defined as Rap and then you could pinpoint the first instance. It is mainly characterized by heavy use of rhyming. I think in a Hip Hop context it would be Sugar Hill Gang from about 76/77 - Rapper's delight.

James Brown used the term Rap all the time - obviously it means to talk. He has a song called Brother Rap. Must be related to Rapport - to establish harmony.

[K-W]

It would definately not be Sugar Hill Gang

Sugar Hill Gang was a commercialized pop rap group formed to capitalize on a growing underground trend. Hip hop was already exploding, they just happened to have the first hit.

Good call on James Brown though, he was definately a big part of it. But in hip-hop, the beats came first. M.C.'s came second and M.C.'s evolved into Rappers.

[mark414]

44. second that on sugarhill

they bit all their rhymes for that track anyways. a couple of the guys in that group were bouncers at the hip hop parties and bit some of the great early mc's HARD for that track

they deserve recognition for breaking like they did

but it should be known that they were BITERS

[DavidFL]

59. Rap as in rap music is relatively recent...

it comes from a game played mostly by young Black men from about the late '60s called 'the dozens' where two people would make up rhymes to totally destroy their opponent. Mostly it would be insults about their opponent's mother. Some people say the dozens originated in Louisiana, but I've also read it coming from New York City too. As mark414 says, this game turned into the way emcees would rhyme to the syncopated beats in the loops created by DJs.

In the ol' school James Brown sense, rap meant the words you used to persuade someone. The word could mean the way you would talk to woman to seduce her, or the name for the talking styles of artists like Barry White or Issac Hayes, called 'love rap'.

"Rapper's Delight" came out in 1979 and is considered one of the first two hip hop records. The other is a song called "King Tim III (Personality Jock)" by a group called the Fatback Band.

[mark414]

35. um...no

the "hip hop beat" came from mostly old funk and soul songs

they'd take the break in the middle of the song and dj afrika bambaataa was really the first to start looping that break beat (he also invented the crossfading turntable), during which the b-boys would dance.

these were always at the house and park parties, and the master of ceremonies was on the mic keeping people entertained. pretty soon it developed into them rhyming, then they started making full songs of the break beats, etc. etc.

this is why sampling is so widespread in hip hop, cause it started with them just having parties and playing music

[Must_B_Free]

40. Sure that's what has been built up as the legend to sell on MTV

Hip hop has a particular kick drum heavy syncopation. By your own definition, you have excluded any identity to this rhythmic style - you've defined it as being all rehash of other. You are getting more into turntablism and hip hop culture, not to deny those things.

But I am talking about the pure style of syncopation that characterizes Hip Hop rhythm. The kick plays a lead role. I submit that Bonham was the first to use the kick as more than a marker. Keith Moon is credited with his lead footed kick drum playing, but I haven't heard him use it like Bohnam.

Look at the Leevee Breaks rhythm: Boom is kick and snap is snare

Boom Boom | Snap | Bo-om Boom Boom | Snap Boom

- that's SIX kicks to two snare hits. Unheard of. Even compared to James Brown's "Funky Drummer", which has way more snare prominence.

Bonzo, unknowingly, unaccreditedly and inadvertantly created that synchopated used of the kick drum that later became seminal in Hip Hop.

[mark414]

42. white people have NOTHING to do with the origins of hip hop

not white music, not white people, not white culture

you are dead wrong, as far as trying to talk about zep's influence on hip hop

[K-W]

48. This has nothing to do with race.

And your charecterization is just wrong.

Let's stick to the music if you don't mind.

[mark414]

49. it has everything to do with race

hip hop was created by a bunch of black and puerto rican kids

that has everything to do with the music, a bunch of inner city kids that society kicked around

from what i've read of your posts you don't seem to have much of a grasp on hip hop or its history so...you'd probably be better off not arguing

[K-W]

51. Thats funny, youve agreed with my other posts.

Where exactly is my grasp lacking?

If you know as much about hip-hop as you say you do, then you know full well that plenty of the music they were spinning was from white artists. You would also know the musical ties between hip-hop and disco. You would also know the important role that the white underground music scene played in bringing hip-hop to the mainstream.

Hip-hop is about race, this discussion is not. I am not trying to take away the racial aspect of hip-hop and I realize that my post could be mistaken as such. The fact of the matter is that white culture and white people have had alot to do with hip-hop, certainly nowhere near as much as black culture, but your post claimed that white culture had nothing to do with it, which is just factually wrong.

If you want to throw up borders between races, knock yourself out, I am not particularly interested in doing so.

[Must_B_Free]

55. Especially when you consider Sly Stone

As I mentioned, Sly's bass player, Larry Grahm is credited with inventing popping. Even Bootsy says so. Sly Stone was the pinnacle of culture escaping limitations of the past. He had black and white men and women in the band. Hell, he even had half the audience on stage with him! So the point is that pop music had already escape black/white by that time.

One could make a case that african drumming influenced the use of polyrhythms but no one is trying to deny that. I was merely pointing out that there are many influences and some come from places you wouldn't expect. Its painfulfor some people to accept multiculturalism when it interferes with their preconceived notions. If anything, urban culture is multicutural, not homogenous.

Hiphop also frequently makes use of braggadocio a musical term from opera.

[DavidFL]

60. Just to clarify...

rap originated in the South Bronx of NYC and was performed predominately, but not totally, by Blacks of Carribean decent. Other emcees and DJs were also Latino. Early rap DJs did sample from "White disco" songs, but they also used tracks from other sources like R&B, blues and reggae. Early rap albums were recorded by small, independent record labels and aimed mostly at Blacks, but the music gradually started attracting Whites as well. Although, it was the Beastie Boys and Aerosmith's collaboration with Run DMC that helped bring rap to pop audiences.

A few sites on the history of hip hop:

http://www.jahsonic.com/Rap.html

http://www.b-boys.com/hiphoptimeline.html

http://www.daveyd.com/daveyhistorylinks2002.html

http://www.rapworld.com/history/

[mark414]

61. ah sorry

i went through these posts too fast and mistook someone else's ramblings for yours; taking the time to look back, you do know what you're talking about

and perhaps i was a bit too strict by saying that white people had nothing to do with the beginnings of hip hop but when you really think about it it's true

and yes i am fully aware of the role that white people have played in bringing hip hop to the world, like the white guys who put out run-dmc's first record

but as far as hip hop itself goes, and it's pure creation and it's purest form, white people just aren't in the picture

i'm not trying to throw up borders between the races either, i just don't think either of us completely understand what aspects of the creation of hip hop we're talking about

that being said, i'd say we both seem to know a lot about hip hop and just ran into a misunderstanding

keep on keepin on

[jdj]

72. That is one stinkin load of bullshit.

Robert Plant sang black, as well as he could anyway.

"Squeeze my lemon baby, til the juice runs down my leg. The way you squeeze my lemon baby, you make me roll right off the bed."

Where in the hell do you think he stole that delivery from?

Clue: they weren't white.

It's called the blues, baby, and without the blues, Led Zepplin would have been four Pat Boones standing around strumming in time.

[LibLover]

33. Hip Hop is a one of my biggest cures for horniness!

Men acting like immature little boys. Blah!

I dislike the message (in general), and I don't like the way the message is delivered.

I'm a rocker at heart!

[mark414]

37. um..."the message?"

hip hop is not just one message, not just one thing, not even one style

tell me, what is this "message" you speak of?

the pimp glorifying ho-dealing rap lifestyle is actually a very very very small corner of the hip hop universe

unfortunately for us, it's the most visible as well, it hasn't always been that way though. it's a phase and it will pass. the rise of people like kanye west, and the growing popularity of people like talib kweli and mos def are proof positive of that.

[LibLover]

45. The negative stuff is all I hear

It must just be what people request around here because that's what the local hip-hop station plays. I would respect "gangsta" rap if it got aired here, but instead they play pitiful sounding sad songs about bad relationships.

If only they were related to the person in the bad relationship it'd be country!

I'm a sucker for a good guitar solo.

Much of what I've heard has become a bad cliche` of itself, but there was one hip-hop band maybe a year ago that had really good instrument playing (not computer created). I wish I could remember their name....

[mark414]

47. the roots?

they play with a full live band

their new album blows, but check out 'things fall apart' which is their easiest album to get into

if you like that, go backwards into their catalogue, their earliest albums are the best

but like i said, 'things fall apart' is the easiest one for people to get into, especially if they're not huge hip hop fans

[jdj]

74. "pitiful sounding sad songs about bad relationships."

pop? yes
country? yes
hell, even opera? yes

[secular_warrior]

38. Both hip-hop/rap and rock have been co-opted by the right/corporations.

Once upon a time rock music and hip hop were radical artforms, vehicles for criticizing society and the powers that be.

The corporations simply co-opted rock and hip hop - repackaged in order to maximize profit. What was once the voice of dissent became the opiate of the masses, no different to pop music, or reality tv --they're all products designed for mass consumption.

Every now and then there are artists who come along that question the system while knowing they have to work within it, people like Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Bruce Springsteen, Chuck D, Kurt Cobain, Tom Morello, Serj Tankien - but these people are few and far between, and are usually systematically destroyed. Most corporate "artists" like Eminem are tools used to rob minorities of their art (like Elvis did), divide, and appease the white suburban elite - who the corporations covet most. In America, the color of money isn't green - it's white.

The only way to start addressing this problem is to break up the corporate media/entertainment conglomerates into smaller, more competitive companies which give real artists a chance to be heard. The Clear Channels of the world are killing democracy.

[K-W]

39. You people do realize that this is exactly what people said about Rock.

I just dont get this musical closed mindedness. I understand that Rap and Hip Hop wont appeal to many people's tastes, which is fine, but we are talking about music here, one man's symphony is another man's noise and vice versa. I cant stand people who decry the quality of something simply because it doesnt appeal to them.

Rap is music, rap is art, rap is self expression. Rap developed as a way for people in the poorest of the poor conditions to express themselves. Im sorry that people decided to like a different music than many of you, but get with the program, music changes. Deal with it and show some respect to people who like a different kind of music than you.

[mark414]

41. well said

i get sick and tired of people riding on hip hop because they don't like the one or two songs they heard while flipping through the dial

it's very ignorant and close minded to say "ugh i hate ALL rap" when those people have probably heard only a fraction of what hip hop has to offer

and it goes beyond ignorance and into just plain stupidity to make assumptions about an entire genre, when most of the anti-hip hop messages i've seen on here clearly lack even the most basic understanding of hip hop and it's glorious history

ya'll just gotta respect hip hop for getting to where it's at and don't be a jackass and bring it down just cause you don't like it

i don't like most country music i hear, but every once in awhile there's a song that catches my ear. and i never say anything like "i hate all country music it sucks it's terrible it's not music." because obviously people like it, and it's obviously music.

it's just plain wrong to say that you hate everything that falls into a certain category and lump it all together

so to everyone who's been rippin on hip hop,

GO FUCK YOURSELVES

[MirrorAshes]

43. This was my reaction to my mom's ignorance.

I was just so offended that she'd completely write off an entire genre based on a sweeping generalization. Its so uncharacteristic of her, I've never seen her react this way to anything before.

[mark414]

46. i'm so sick of defending hip hop

christ people wake the fuck up and get rid of your ignorances and bias

[jdj]

78. I second.

and to claim Led Zepplin invented it, when all Zep was was four white boys paying homage to blues musicans. Jesus H.

I'm so disappointed in this thread.

[EEgrad2003]

105. I agree

People don't grasp the full history of the art form and the music. Hip Hop is a direct derivative of jazz and scat. As for the drums, much of that originates from Africa. These were sounds and traditions that were passed down through slavery. Griots told stories, sometimes with the accompany of beats. This is the blues and hip hop originates, NOT Led Zeppelin. Granted, they may have had an influence, but they were INFLUENCED themselves.

Most people never fully respect hip hop because they don't know the lineage it follows. They never listen to the concept of the message. People are now starting to think that hip hop is political and hip hop has been political for years, since it's inception. It's really sad that people can only look at the surface, and not give credit to those who honor this art-form. Before Jadakiss made "Why", Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five made "The Message" and "White Lines". Before eminem made "Mosh", there was Public Enemy.

[mark414]

106. well put

dig the sig line too

[EEgrad2003]

108. Thanks

n/t

[freeplessinseattle]

50. It annoys the f**k out of me

seriously, it makes me go insane, just annoys me to the core, seriously, I think I;m allergic. I'm 32 now, but even in my "youth" I couldn't tolerate it as much as I really tried to, but I realy think it makes my ears bleed. Can't stand eminem needless to say, but am delighted with his admirable campaign attempts, and some of the lyrics touched a chord in me, no pun intended, but don't think I could listen to it, sorry to say. I'm already motivated anyway, this is geared towards the younger, too cool to care demographic, and could really work.

[specimenfred1984]

53. It's Music, Some People Like It, Some People Don't

A cheesy drum beat with lyrics I can't understand do nothing for me but other people like it.

To me, it's no different than listening to some old Dean Martin song or Pat Boone song. I can understand why some people might like it, but I don't.

People who look for meaning in music need to ask themselves just what the artist meant when creating a song. Many times it's as simple as being bored and at the moment when it was created and it sounded good to the artist.

One of my favorite quotes is "your favorite band sucks"! Musical tastes vary as widely as any other tastes, even among individuals. I get sick of stuff I like then a few months later I like it again.

The message of most music is secondary, it's the music itself that people like. As far as Eminem being a force to be reckoned with, he already proved that by making it big. But, he like any other artist could be washed up in a few years or he could make a 40 year career out of what he's doing.

I'll tell you what I really hate, country music.

[jdj]

79. I'm watching Gwen Stefani right now

talk about no talent.

I SO don't get her. Yet she's a rich rock star, paid to whine for ten years (20 years?) the cheapest Kate Bush knock-off imaginable, yet she's a rich rock star.

just had to get that off my chest.

and have to add that the back-up singers on most rap songs could sing her under the table, yet she's the one that gets marketed. I.don't. get. it.

[jdj]

80. dupe

[NuttyFluffers]

54. a pivotal sub-cultural movement... but it was better in my day

if only there was an old fogie emoticon... :D

seriously though hip hop is a gigantic concept comprising music, dance, art, fashion, slang, etc. a movement of self-expression that has drastically changed modern society (whether you like it or not) and has introduced more than its share of innovations that most of us take for granted in our daily lives. from the death of 60's civil rights movement came the birth of punk, hip-hop, techno, and hard rock (metal), such major trends in modern culture it is hard to imagine modern life without their influence.

about rap in particular i really dug the messages in the older stuff. could only dig gangsta rap for the first years then it got *stale*, oh so bloody stale! thank god there's always been stuff going on in the background revitalizing it. i'm particularly interested in the recent shifts in rap, a more self-aware lyricism and video expression is starting to return, like phoenix from the ashes. i just wish it'll be given time to take root and not overexposed as everything is from the evil duo of MTV and VH1 and the rest of top 40 hell.

[donheld]

56. Hip Hop can be quite good

It's really too bad people my age and older, sometimes younger won't give it a chance. It kind of reminds me of the way my parents and their generation hated Rock n Roll

[jdj]

81. I have to laugh out loud at the whiteness of that post.

no harm intended, but "hip-hop can be quite good"?

I'm white, but it reminds me of the old "white rap" on SNL.

[belle]

57. There's some great hip-hop out there, but most isn't on the radio or MTV

unfortunately. I'm glad at least Black-Eyed Peas are getting some traction. I also like: Princess Superstar & MC Paul Barman, both snarky, intellectual, and very dirty-talking and leftie hip-hop artists.

For a better idea of what's out there, try browsing the hip-hop section at www.cdbaby.com

I despise Eminem, but I do have to give him props for this latest video.

[jdj]

83. I LOVE lil' Kim.

This is a WHOLE NEW KIND of feminism and she is a revolutionary, like Madonna in her day, except this is what Madonna REALL WANTED to say, plus the rhyming slang on here is delicious. maybe people who don't like rap just aren't used to hearing this much poetry in music, since regular pop music rarely ventures beyond the a/b/a/b masculine rhyme scheme.


Not tonight, lil' Kim

"...I know a dude named Ron Doo push a Q
Had a wild crew on Flatbush and Avenue U
Had a weedspot, used to pump African black
He used to, seal his bag so his workers wouldn't cap
I used to see him, in the tunnel, with f**kers at dawn
Whisper in my ear he wanna get his f**k on
I dug him, so I f**ked him, it wasn't nuttin'
He wanted me to suck him, but I didn't, I aint frontin'
The sex was wack, a four stroke creep
I jumped on his dick, rode his ass to sleep
He called next week, askin' why I aint beep him
"I thought your ass was still sleepin."
He laughed, told me he bought a new Path
Could he come over right fast and f**k my pretty ass?
I'll pass, n--- the dick was trash
If sex was record sales you would be double plat
The only way you seein' me is if you eatin' me
Downtown taste my love like Horace Brown
Tryin' to impress me with your five G stones
I give you ten G's n--- if you leave me alonen

The moral of the story is this
You aint lickin' this, you aint stickin' this
And I got witnesses, ask any n---- I been with
They aint hit shit till they stuck they tongue in this
I aint with that frontin' shit
I got my own Benz, I got my own ends, immediate friends
Me and my girls rock worlds, some big n----
F**k for car keys, and double digit figures
Good dick I cherish, I could be blunt
I treat it like it's precious, I aint gonna front
For limp dick n----, that's frontin' like they willy
Suck my pussy till they kill me, you feel me?

[NoPasaran]

62. I don't care for it

I'd rather listen to a car alarm

[freeplessinseattle]

63. lol! I'm with ya, and car alarms make me batty!

[NoPasaran]

82. Yeah, but they don't have that bass line you hear for blocks n/t

[Chovexani]

64. 23 year old black female

I can't stand the shit. Any of it. It's like nails on a chalkboard to me, don't care who does it or what they're saying. :shrug:

[WoodrowFan]

65. don't pay much attention to it

middle-aged white guy here. I don't pay much attention to it. Have heard and liked a couple of songs but it's not really on my radar screen.

But then, I live and work in DC (area) so I hear it sometimes on the radio. I MUCH prefer an "Urban" radio station to country "music."


BTW, not a CLUE about the difference between hip-hop and rap, sorry.

[annabanana]

66. don't care one way or the other...It's not aimed at me................n/t

[sendero]

69. 95% of all pop music...

... is crap, and that is being generous.

That said, I like some music that one could call hiphop, but I don't care much for most rap, especially the bragadocio style in which people who don't seem to have much going on talk like they are king of the world. Just doens't interest me, in fact it sounds kinda laughable.

On the other hand, one my all time favorite records is "Endtroducing", a sample-based record that the artist (DJ Shadow) describes as hiphop but many critics do not.

Most (all if you live in Dallas) of the music you hear on the radio is utter dreck, talentless hack crap pushed by record companies who are going to die a well deserved p2p death :)

[prayin4rain]

98. Hey I live in Dallas...but yeah I agree with ya.

I wanted to feign offense....but I agree so just yeah.

[Liberal Veteran]

75. I feel sorry for many of them....

Particularly the ones that are ruining their hearing so early in life by riding around in a sound system on wheels cranked up to the highest volume.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

77. Hip Hop is the best thing going in music today!

Not the bullshit Chingy crap

[jdj]

86. I really like the multi-culturalism in rap videos lately

I usually have the TV going when I'm on the computer, and I see so many different cultures represented in hip-hop, there's more and more latino artists, and Chin the chinese rapper was awesome and hilarious ("We should ride the train for free/Chinese BUILT the railroad") and Missy Elliot's video with the chinese dancers with their martial art moves combined with hip-hop dance, and I have seen a couple videos with middle-eastern settings and themes with middle-eastern dancing (belly dancing)which is one of the most beautiful art forms on the planet. Even Beyonce' did a video like this, after Shakira (from Columbia) came on the scene, who has been belly-dancing since she was three years old.

[bicentennial_baby]

84. I loved it before it died

To me, hip hop died around 99-2000, in the era of big pimpin and so so def, etc. There is so little out there that's any good now, and what there is isn't on tv or radio, and that includes eminem ( :puke: ). Give me Fear of a Black Planet, Enter the 36 Chambers, and Aquemini any day over the current shit.

[mark414]

100. ohhh you are missing out

you're just not lookin hard enough!

there's so much good shit out there these days you just gotta dig deep

and punk is dead, not hip hop

hip hop will never die

[BiggJawn]

85. I'm a 47-y-o white male who "Air Conducts" Mozart....

I don't think I'm the intended buyer base that M n'M's label has in mind...

I don't care for Randy Travis either.

so go ahead and call me "uncool"

[jdj]

88. try to catch the new video of Eminem's

if you can.

It's a powerful affirmation.

Instead of just urging people to vote, he visualized election day and legions of young people "putting aside our differences" (lyric) and showing up at the polls, lined up for blocks, and then made a video of this that's part cartoon, part real. And it is a scathing indictment of Bush.

[BiggJawn]

92. Then I think I shall go find it.

I could use some affirmation like that.

[LizW]

87. It's music of a generation I'm not in

How's that for a crappy sentence? (It's early)

I don't get hip-hop. I'm old. But it speaks to some people. The music that speaks to me is the music of my generation, but whatever moves you is fine.

Thank god there is new music, new styles of music, and that some of it is talking about justice and peace and equality and the big issues.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

89. i really enjoy hip hop

i am not a huge fan, i don't own many albums (i do own some De La Soul and some Tribe Called Quest). I can't really pigeon hole myself into likeing one type of music specifically, but i have much respect and gain much enjoyment listing to some hip-hop acts.

sometimes i feel that hip-hop is the most envelope pushing music in the mainstream these days. some of the rythms in even the cheesiest bling bling song are more complex that most of the mainstream "rock" you hear these days.

it is strange how people have such a strong dislike of hip-hop. to see the genre take shape and come alive over my lifetime has been a real treat. of course there are always flies in the ointment and you have to keep in mind that most of the mainstream rap you are hearing on the radio are pretty commercial and lame. one thing to keep in mind about the widespread popularity of hip-hop: hip-hop/rap is a very cheap product to produce compared to recording a band with lots of musicians. it takes far less time and far less equipment to record, thus record companies stand to make more profit.

as for Eminem, i am very glad he is a popular artist, he would be doing what he does whether he made any money at it or not, he just loves hip-hop and the solace it has provided him. He seems alot more real to me than most artist, he wears his heart on his sleeve. he is also very very talented. rythmically his rhymes are outrageously fun and lyrically they are over the top. he is a musician, he produces most of his tracks these days (i believe), he is not just an MC but an all around musician.

as a fan of Death Metal i would venture to guess that many of the posters that have such disdain for hip-hop would not be big fans of death metal either and would argue that such music has no musical value when the fact is that it is some of the most technical and inclusive genres there is.

hip-hop is here to stay, it is world wide, it is the new rock'n roll. you can argue that it is not the same as rock'n roll but the similarities i believe are overwhelming. "get a hair cut!" has been replaced with "pull up those britches!"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. Rap. Really boring.

But, I'm 60 and fan of Beethoven, Bach, and Mozart. As the years have passed, the more I find myself craving music (and all the arts) with depth rather than dazzle.

If I was 15 or even 25 again, I'd probably love it, just as I did Dylan and The Doors when I was that age.

Now, rap and heavy metal are just as irritating as disco was.

Hey, I'm an old fogey and I've earned my right to be curmudgeonly about "the youth of today".

[IrateCitizen]

91. Hip hop promoted by the commercial industry is largely terrible...

It glorifies violence, gross materialism (bling-bling) and overt mysogyny. I would largely include Eminem in that category. In spite of his most recent song, I would categorize much of the stuff he has put out over the years as trash.

HOWEVER...

There is a LOT of underground hip-hop that has a meaningful message. Every once in a while, one of these artists breaks through into "commercial" hip hop (like Public Enemy in the 80's and early 90's, or A Tribe Called Quest in the 1990's).

Personally, one of my favorite "underground" hip hop acts is The Coup. Their lyrics are often a savage commentary on the inequities and injustices of society, even if offered up in a rather humorous way ("5 Million Ways to Kill a CEO", for example).

[semillama]

96. Don't forget about KRS-ONE

That guy was one of the guys that really tipped me over into really liking hip-hop, back in college. I remember, my junior year, I was rooming with mainly hip-hop fans, black and white, and I was the one listening to the radical political groups like KRS and Public Enemy, while they were listening to Kid N' Play.

I can find something to enjoy in just about every musical genre. I like it all, from old timey to country to classic rock to punk to metal to hip hop to orchestral and symphonic music. On any given day, you will find me listening to bizarre combinations of music, skipping from Holst's "The Planets" to Iron Maiden's "Piece of Mind" to The Dead Milkmen's "Bucky Fellini" to Solas' first album. This is why I have been informally banned from playing DJ at work.

Someone mentioned rap/rock cross overs. Run-DMC and Aerosmith, I remember that, but it wasn't particularly exciting as much as it seemed like a gimmick to me. However, when Public Enemy and Anthrax teamed up on Bring The Noise, whoa! That blew me back in my chair!

That's the thing about Eminem that has placed me at odds with some of my friends - for me, the music is so good that it trumped his horrible message in some of the songs.

As the man said:
Information is Not knowledge
Knowledge is Not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is the best...

[noonwitch]

93. It's not my music, but I support civil liberties

I don't like the way it sounds, and hate it when people play it in their cars so loud that my front windows shake when they drive by my house. But if I can listen to GNR, other people should be able to listen to rap. For teenagers, it pisses parents off the same way heavy metal did in the 80s. Every generation needs something like that to get behind.

I did enjoy the movie "8 Mile", mostly because I love Detroit and I think the movie really captured some deep truths about the city I love.

[democratreformed]

94. I watched "Eight Mile" (isn't that it?) with my daughter and gained a new

respect for the truly talented hip-hop artists. I have listened to Eminem before with my daughter and actually like some of his stuff.
This one is truly awesome - although I am surprised he is not in jail for it already.

[MirrorAshes]

109. Eight Mile is great!

I have a feeling if any of the Eminem naysayers had actually seen it they wouldn't be so quick to label him as a "corporate tool".

[Tim4319]

95. Hip Hop is just not the form that is seen on TV or on the radio.

If you want to hear what real Hip Hop is, listen to artist like KRS-One, Mos DEF, Public Enemy, Common, Talib Qwali. These artist are true Hip Hop artist, because they live it. Now, they may not sell many records, but these artist are the ones who make you think! They are not all about disrespecting woman, talk about the cars they drive, or brag about the woman they have. They constantly talk about the upliftment of black people, without degrading other races and cultures. But, they will touch on how the government helps the rich get rich, the poor get poor, and how they like to dominate the world. I promise you, if you were to listen to any of the groups about, and some others I did not list, you opinion of Hip Hop will change! Plus, rap is only a small segment of the Hip Hop culture.

[prayin4rain]

97. In general not my cup of tea.

I prefer "indie-rock". (that seems funny to say)...type

[patrice]

99. I mostly can't understand the words.

I would like to because I've always been curious about anything that attracts the attention of young people (I taught high school).

I'm a very good dancer (I'm told), so I like anything that is dance-able but don't find hip-hop very dance-able, but then maybe that is just me.

[Ron Green]

104. There is poetry, and there is doggerel....

and there is music, and there is an assembly of sounds. It's up to us each and all to know the difference, IMHO.

Wish we still had real music ed. in school.

[MissMillie]

110. I like the lighter hip-hop, to dance to

especially the stuff from the early 90s