Help! I'm too old for college

[monkeyboy]

Awright, so I'm writing my first college research paper at the ripe old age of 44. I'm taking an art history course, and I need to write three of these over the course of the semester. My first assignment is "Japanes Influence on Impressionists". So I bought the MLA guide, read it, and I know how to make parenthetical references to the bibiography, etc. but, I'm not sure when I should attribute something to a source. For instance, if I quote somebody, that obviously needs to be attributed. Something that's common knowledge, for instance, "painters using brushes", does not need to be attributed to a source. But what about something that I've picked up through my research that I can't attribute to a source? For instance, everything I read includes a reference to Whistler, so obviously, this guy was influenced the most by Japanese art, but I can't find anywhere that it says that. Can I just go ahead and say it without attribution?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

1. Consult prof...

This is one of those sticky situations where you need to consult your professor. They're usually pretty happy to help. And you're NEVER too old for college!!! :hug:
Duckie

[playahata1]

18. I teach freshman composition at a community college,

so I have to deal with research papers. Here goes.

OOPS! THIS IS FOR MONKEYBOY. I DIDN'T MEAN THIS AS A RESPONSE TO RUBBERDUCKY! SORY.

The general rule is that you must use parenthetical documentation for anything that is not considered "common knowledge," "common knowledge" meaning anything that any "educated" (at least not brain-dead) person should know.

For example:

* JFK was killed on Nov. 22, 1963.

* Terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001.

* Baghdad is the capital of Iraq.

* Stone Mountain is located in Georgia.

These bits of information are considered "common knowledge," and as such do not need to be cited. However, if you use specific, detailed information about Stone Mountain or the Kennedy assasination or 9-11 or whatever, you must use the parenthetical citation.

And 44 is not too old for college. I had a grad school classmate who received her Master's degree in 2002 (same time I got my Ph.D.) at AGE SEVENTY-SIX. I'd met her three years before in a linked (with undergrad and grad students) fiction writing workshop; at the time she was finishing up her B.A. -- and at the time I did not know that she was in her 70s. (She looks as if she is in her 50s.) We had a couple more classes together in 2000-2001, and she is now working on her Ph.D. in Humanities.

[kimchi]

2. I don't think you would need a source for that.

If you can't find it written explicitly, but it is obvious, don't worry about it. You could word it just like you did here-that you noticed he was influenced-then you are offering your own conclusion.

Good luck in college. I always found that the older folks were much more on top of everything than the kids, probably just a function of being at school because they really want to be.

I'll be going back in the spring, and everyone will see me as an old folk too- I'm 37.

[sybylla]

3. You can say it without attribution if you demonstrate

you can observe the influence. Cite an example or two of apparent influence and tie it into what you have read in your research.

i.e. Whistler's paintings, x and y, clearly demonstrate the japanese technique/style/color coordination/whatever. "Early influence on American artist can be seen by the adoption of x technique," said an important so-n-so. (reference)

Part of the trick of writing a good research paper is writing your way around the parts of research you are missing. Most professors know when you are jumping to unsupported or unsupportable conclusion and want to see that you at least thought about the connections you are trying to make.

Good luck! From a non-traditional college student, who graduated a few years ago at 37 with a bachelors in English.

[monkeyboy]

5. Thanks, that's good advice

Actually, I've been going to college off and on for years, but mostly for I.T. related stuff. No term papers required.

[Bossy Monkey]

4. Ya are not

but I don't generally see Whistler considered to be an Impressionist. According to this http://www.asia.si.edu/exhibitions/current/whistler.htm
he was influenced by (Impressionist) Courbet in the early part of his career, but left that behind for the later, more Japanese-influenced part of his career. If you can find any publications from the Smithsonian, specifically the Freer Gallery, they would be helpful, because they focus very much on the Japanese influences on Whistler. (If you're just doing Impressionists though, Musee d'Orsai)

[monkeyboy]

8. Ooooh, nice web page

Thanks

[bloom]

10. That is a good point

Whistler painted in more of a flat way - (influenced by the Japanese) - which does not seem particularly impressionistic.


(But that wasn't the question, was it?)

[Lady President]

6. Every prof is different

As a college junkie I've found that different professors like different styles which is very frustrating. My suggestion would be to ask the professor, but when in doubt attribute things to a source. You can get in major trouble if you don't cite sources enough, but you'll never get in trouble for too many cites. In law school I wrote papers where there was a endnote for every single sentence in the entire paper. Also, remember that if you feel confused by the MLA, so will the instructor. There are very few people who truly understand proper citiation, so the key is to just make everything consistant throughout the paper.

Congrats on going back to school! :party:

[bloom]

7. "this guy was influenced the most by Japanese art"

IMHO - that would be an opinion and not a fact. Seems like you could say something like "Many are of the opinion..."

(But I don't know if you need to list some of the references or not.)

[HereSince1628]

9. If you make an observation you can own it...

it sounds to me like you made your own observation. To CYA you might write your observation as Authors x,y, and z all consider Whistler to have been influenced by Japenese Art. This is the way that informed opinions are stated in academics. Everyone can have an opinion, but an informed opinion is based on evidence and argumentation provided by other authors. If you haven't figured it out yet, academics are very fond of informed opinions and rather snooty about uninformed opinions.

If you take another person's observation and work it into your writing, even if you paraphrase it, it needs to be attributed.

As a person who has taught at the college level for more than a dozen years I second the idea that when in doubt about how to handle the mechanics of a sitation...check with your prof. He or she may have an expectation about how that will be handled.

Plagarism/intellectual theft is an important concept on college campuses. I expect that your college has a statement on it. Most learning centers have a handout on plagarism. You should read that.

[Norbert]

11. I second consulting the professor,

In my experience, some of the professors that taught me were actually a little miffed if questions were NOT asked. Not much of a coincidece that these were the professors that I took more knowlegde from their class. I'm sure you will find your professor will be glad to help you.

I think it would depend on specifics too. Consult your professor, he/she may have expectations over and above what the school or a reference book may give you.


By the way, I received my Bacholer of Science degree at the ripe old age of 49. You are NOT too old for college.

[Red_Viking]

12. Never too old!

I salute you. Learning is a lifelong endeavor. You're probably a far superior student to the kids around you. More serious.

The SO and I are attempting to go to law school next fall. LSAT is October 4. We're boning up every night. And, studying for the test as well. }(

Best of luck to you!

RV

[izzie]

13. Your right about the artist and I read it in art books as an art major.

Things from the Far East took over Europe at that time, as Japan had just been open to the West. China designs, cloth designs etc, and for get the age I went back and worked my way through college when I had 5 children and my husband put ever thing in my way he could. I had started at 18 then went back at 39 and did it.I do not think you need to foot note that as it was common all over Europe that the Far East was becoming the thing in society.PS see my icon.

[skip fox]

14. As a college prof., I agree with Yellowduckie

(boy! I love how that sounds), but I'd guess if everyone is indicating the collection you needsn't attribute to avoid charge of plagiarism, but for solid research, I'd cite the most credible and significant source on this: Go to Whistler's biographies . . . esp. the most recent reliable one. If it's in there (and how could it avoid being) cite that and signal its credibility in the text.

[einsteins stein]

15. Plagiarism

According to the St Martins Handbook (if you don't have this book, and you will be writing college papers, go buy it!) certain things need no acknowledgment:

1) Common Knowledge Examples: Bill Clinton was elected President in 1992 and 1996. The sky is blue. The United States is part of North America, etc. No ackowledgment needed

2)Widely Available Information If several sources contain the same info, don't acknowledge. Example: "The Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor destroyed most of the base except oil tanks and submarines." This needs no acknowledgment. However, if your source draws an arguable conclusion from the facts, such as saying that "by not destroying the Subs, Japan was destined to lose the war" you must acknowledge the source.

3)Your own feelings from your research If your research directs you to the conclusion that space aliens have taken over the government, argue your findings to the best of your ability, but present your ideas as your own. Your certainly don't need to reference yourself.

Anything else, acknowledge. If you're confused still, go buy the St Martins Handbook. If that doesn't settle the matter, err on the side of acknowledgment, and avoid plagiarism.

Good luck!

[monkeyboy]

16. The written instructions for the class say...

...that more than 2 footnotes per page may indicate that you're relying too much on the opinions of others and not formulating your own thoughts, but then the instructor says that you need to be careful and cite things correctly. Sounds like a phone call to the instructor is in order.

[oldleftguy]

17. Include the general reference in your bibliography.

Best if you as the Prof!