DU Genealogists... Please check in: I have some questions...

[Cooley Hurd]

Since April, I've been researching my genealogy and, while unearthing so many cool facts about my ancestry, I've also run across some questions as well:

1) Census records: In several instances, my great great Grandfather's age is incorrect (variances of 1 - 5 years). He was an Irish immigrant who couldn't, according to records, read or write. Is it possible he didn't know his true age, or did the census takers compute it wrong?

2) Also in census records: My great great great Grandfather (no relation to my Irish g-g grandfather) is listed in the 1791 NJ tax lists, but doesn't show up on any census, previously or subsequently. I've tried soundex searches, and variances of spelling, but to no avail.

Also, I have a picture (taken in 1898 in Parksley, VA) that is intriguing:

My great Grandfather is the gentleman in the middle (my grandfather is the toddler sitting next to him). Wouldn't it be considered unusual to pose with your African-American servants, especially in VA in 1898? The reason I ask is because this might point to my great grandfather being pretty progressive for his era... Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Kick...

kick

[DELUSIONAL]

2. Information found in Census record is only as reliable as the informants

The age found for individual in census records depends on who gave the information and how the census taker recorded that information. This is why it is wise to find all records including all census returns.

Generally my ancestor's age has only deviated by one year. But there are cases where the respondent has lied about their age -- women wanted possibly to hide their true age. Some women have been known to grow younger as they age. Census takes can also make gross errors -- some census takers were better than others -- better hand writing or education and or spelling.

As for question (2) -- do you have any idea when you great great great Grandfather was born, where he died. Look for land records, and look for probate records. Land records are often overlooked -- and they can hold a gold mine of information. You found him on the NJ tax rolls -- there are land records for NJ (I've not researched N.J. so I don't know how well indexed this information is.) There are several good books on land record research. Also try grave yards records -- if you know where he died. Did he get married? The east coast started keeping records of marriages earlier than the western states -- if he was married in an eastern state -- you could be in luck.

For websites -- Ancestry.com and Genealogy.com

And just do a google search for land records you might be surprised what you find. Also do a surname search on google -- you may find someone who is researching the same ancestor lines.

[Cooley Hurd]

4. I think it's possible my great great Grandfather lied about his age...

I have a record of his Union army enlistment (1862) - He listed his age as 43, and his age listed in 1870 is 53. He might have lied about his age to get into the Union army (although I don't know if there were age ceilings back then)? :shrug:

I'm planning a trip to Morristown, NJ soon to search land records - the ancestor in question shares my surname...

Thanks for the tips!:thumbsup:

[izzie]

14. My grandmother ages 2 years every 10 years.

My grandfather aged 10 years every 10 years. They could say anything. Also you could skip doing it. One year my family was not counted as I just was not home each time they came. Hunting for families is really hide and seek and lots of fun. My father's grand father birth place changed over the years. It was like the small town became the larger town next door. I can see how it happened. As he said I was born in this town next to a better know town that better known town was what his children recalled. Another part of my family made ---field in to ----ville. So you really have to watch what is going on.Spelling is also hard as I do not think it was standard until into the 1800's so you really have to do some hunting.I find church records very good.

[VivaKerry]

3. Are you sure they are servants?

Or is that an assumption?

No matter the story behind the pic, it is a fascinating depiction that flies in the face of those intolerant times. Great find.

As for the age differences, keep in mind that whatever records you are looking at had to be TRANSCRIBED to view online (unless you are looking at the actual written record somehow). If there is an age difference, it
could be just a mistake of some tired volunteer putting the info into a database. Always consider the integrity of database and how the database came into being.

[Cooley Hurd]

5. It's an assumption based on positioning...

At first, I thought they might be neighbors, but the woman standing on the porch appears to have walked out the front door for the picture (seems odd for a neighbor to assume such a position in the photograph)...

My great Grandfather (Albert) owned a pattern letter business (making primarily rubber stamps), so it's possible the African- American male works in his shop? :shrug:

[DELUSIONAL]

6. You can look at the actual census records at

several for pay websites -- or

through your local LDS -- Mormon church -- the Family History centers.

Mormons have been into genealogy for a very long time. In my research I discovered that I am 50% Mormon (both paternal grandparents) -- my father was not religious and never told me anything about his parents except that his father was born in Utah -- and left Utah because he left the Mormon church).

They also have a website http://www.familysearch.org which has tons of information, especially how to research you family tree.

The information by VivaKerry about transcribed above is correct about transcribed information -- search the original records -- online, at the library on microfilm -- learn to read the old handwriting. There are tons of transcription errors and often it is your ancestor who was left off the transcription index. The original records have so much more information than the indexes do -- you will miss out on learning something key about your ancestors if you skip looking at the source documents.

[Cooley Hurd]

7. I've got full membership @ ancestry.com...

I've saved all original census record images, as well as doing page-by-page census image searches in pertaining localities, to the point that I'm crosseyed...:crazy:

It paid off, in most instances...:thumbsup:

[VivaKerry]

8. In total agreement.

Plus, it's a GAS to look at the original records. Makes you feel like you are connecting to your heritage.

I also like feeling like a real-life sleuth. :-)

I have some mormons in my background, and would expect to find a lot of info through the mormon records. Just need to travel to Utah to do it.

[DELUSIONAL]

9. I know it is like looking at a snap shot in time

our ancestors were alive during that moment when their words were translated into marks on the census report.

When you find your first ancestor in the records you are hooked.

I learned about the double "ss" -- being written as what looks like a "fs" - I had to check back on several ancestors who were born in Mass rather than Mafs.

Nothing like genealogy to get our minds off current events.

Ancestry is a good place to search -- and they have a great online library. Plus classes.

[DELUSIONAL]

10. You can get a lot of the records held in Utah -- Family history library

at your local family history center (or library) it's late and I can't remember what the local one is called.

Check the familysearch.org website -- you can find a list of all family history centers in your area. And you can search the Library cataloger for records that have been microfilmed or are on micro filch. You can order this for your local family history center and do your research there. The Library in Utah will also make copies of a whole lot of original source records -- there is a notation on each Library holding about which record has been copied or can be copied for very reasonable fees.

Your local family history center has some good books about how to order research material from the Library in Utah. Plus there is information online.

The Internet has been fantastic for genealogists -- I thank Gore for his foresight to invent the internet <grin>.

[Cooley Hurd]

11. I have to admit...

...some of the things I've found have been really neat! My great-great-great-great grandfather, Cooley Hurd, fought in the CT militia during the revolutionary war, my great-great grandfather, John Gummerson, fought with the NJ militia in the War of 1812 (and later became a hatter, by trade). Cooley's grandson, Charles A Hurd, fought with the 111th NY Volunteers during the Civil War (fought & was wounded @ Gettysburg). My great great grandfather Thomas Quinn, a 43 year old Irish immigrant, also fought in the Civil War...

[kitchen girl]

17. It's totally addictive.

I spend hours and hours poring over old census records on ancestry.com. And there's a lot of them to pore over in my family - they've been here since dirt was invented. My husband's family are all Hungarian immigrants who arrived between 1890 and 1910. They're a lot more challenging.

[Joy Anne]

13. on Mormons and genealogy

I think all the genealogists here know, but others may not, and it isn't clear in the preceding: The Mormon genealogy lists have just about everybody on them, not just Mormons or people with Mormon roots.

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. Yes...

everyone they can find, anyway. Although the fact that it makes a genealogical resource is secondary, for the Mormons. They have some absolutely psychotic idea abnout baptising the dead by proxy, which means that someone stands in for the dead person they're posthumously Mormonising and gets dunked. And they "seal" men to their wives and parents to their children, because they have this whole fucked-up eschatology where everyone and his wife gets a planet of their own to rule over and populate. Completely bizarre.

[LDS Jock]

32. they are entitled to their beliefs, just as you are

insulting someone's religious beliefs does no good

[REP]

38. LDS (Mormon) Records Are Often Wrong

LDS records can be a great place to start, but their records are often full of bad information, and so anything obtaind from them should be double checked and not used a primary source. I cannot tell you how many remarkably bad records I have found just on one of my ancestors (for one thing, they have her living to be over 200 years old and having her first child at age 4). Many non-LDS do not like them having this information, and do not correct the records.

[izzie]

15. Some of that old hand writing is great.

Does get a little hard on the eyes when you spend hours on it on the PC. It is easier than going to a society to study each week.

[cornermouse]

12. Another place to look online

cyndislist.com has links to state government sites, some of which have on-line records. Also the Bureau of Land management has on-line records. Go to http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ Click on search land patents in the green strip at the top and it will take you to a search engine. If you don't know what state to look in, choose the tab that says standard. Scroll down to the bottom and choose "all states". Happy hunting.

[Cooley Hurd]

19. Also, Rootsweb's USGenWeb project has been really helpful...

The one for my local county is incredible and invaluable.:thumbsup:

[cornermouse]

20. Also genforum.

If you find someone who is connected, try contacting them directly and offer to trade information. It works real well.

[Rhiannon12866]

16. I am also of Irish descent, so I'll e-mail my aunt, who knows more than I

do. But I can certainly promise you, my ancestors didn't have servants.:shrug:

That's a wonderful photograph! I have one of my grandmother's father and uncles, taken on Christmas Day, 1912. I love these things and cherish them!:-)

As for your grandfather's age, he might not have had access to his birth certificate. This wasn't considered so important then, as it is now. I always thought that my grandmother was born 2/11, but, after she died, her birth certificate said 2/14. I don't know, but guess, that the doctor took awhile to get to her home and write a birth certificate. BTW, she was a twin.:shrug:

[Cooley Hurd]

18. That's what I thought - he emigrated from Ireland in the 1850's...

...and possibly didn't know when he was born. I still wonder about the civil war thing, though (lying about his age to enlist - his civil war pension card says he was 43 when he enlisted, but another record puts him at 46 in 1862).

Most of these photos were found digging in my sisters house, which she inherited from my mom when she died, who inherted it from my father's mother when she died, who inherited from her father when he died in 1920. The house has been in the family since 1914, yet these pictured were buried in a hall closet. When I found them, two weekends ago, you can imagine my glee! The photo above hit me the hardest emotionally when I found it - I couldn't come up with any other conclusion than my great grandfather was progressive enough to want to be photographed with his African-American employees (I mean, it is Virginia and it is 1898;)). At least, that's what I hope...:)



On edit: Here's another fun photo I found. Albert E (in the pic) is the same gentleman in the Porch photo, and I believe the teen sitting on the ground (who appears to have been dosed with Castor oil) is my Grandfather - I did an earlobe check with a later photo and got a match...)

[Rhiannon12866]

33. That is a fascinating story and the photographs are priceless

When my paternal grandmother died, not long ago, my aunt cleaned out my cousin's house, where a lot of her things were being stored. She asked me if I wanted anything in particular and I told her that I wanted her photograph album. My parents and my father's sister put it together for her before I was born. It contains some amazing, and very old photos, as well. And, drat, my aunt still has it!:-(

I was able to find out more about my maternal grandparents through the Ellis Island website. They came from Poland in the early 20th century. They even have photographs of each individual ship! However, if your ancestor came from Ireland in the 1850s, that's too early for Ellis Island. My great-grandparents also came from Ireland, sometime before the turn of the century, and it's too early for them to have come through Ellis Island, either. Here's the website, anyway, in case you can use it.:shrug:

http://www.ellisisland.org/

[DELUSIONAL]

29. Birth certificates in the US weren't common until mid 20th cen

until mid 20th century. You can't go back very far using just birth certs. Some of the New England State started keeping birth records much easier. Western states are the worst for keeping birth records -- I have none at all for any of my 4 grandparents -- all were born in western stated before Registrars caught up with the western migration.

HOWEVER -- marriage records started very early. And the reason for records wasn't generally religious as the fundies and others are claiming today. No the real reason that marriage certs and intentions of marriage is was so important had to do with property -- real estate and "movable" property. It was for inheritance reasons -- the wife had dowager rights -- and you will see in old real estate records the wife's signature when she signs away her dowager rights. Inheritance for the wife was written into law in nearly all the states and colonies.

This historical information really is important for today's political battle of gay's marriage. By marrying our gay brothers and sisters in the liberal/progressive cause -- have a right to inherit -- and all the other rights that partners have. The marriage laws that were written hundreds of years ago had nothing to do with sex -- they were economic. Anyway this is what struck me most after reading the marriage laws and how to locate information about ancestors. I thought that this was so relevant to the politics of today.

[Rhiannon12866]

31. I have a book that chronicles my paternal grandmother's family

It was put together, and published, by her aunt, in the late 1960s. The first member of her family came here, by ship, from the Netherlands, in the mid 1600s, so it had a quite a few generations to cover. Much of the earlier information came from census records, as well as property transactions, usually involving inheritance.:-)

As far as my maternal grandmother is concerned, I honestly don't know if the birthday mix-up came from a birth certificate. I just assumed that it did, when my mother told me about it. We found this out when she died, so my mother could have suddenly had access to a marriage certificate, for instance. Since this grandmother was born in a small town in Eastern Poland, just before the turn of the century, it's possible that they didn't have birth certificates, as you say. I'll have to ask.:shrug:

[Cooley Hurd]

34. My paternal Grandmother's family came here around the same time...

The Hurd family washed ashore here in 1640 (from England), and settled around New Bedford, CT. My great great great great grandfather, Cooley Hurd, moved to Cayuga County, NY, onto land earned as a Revolutionary War soldier (part of the deal was by fighting, you got free land in the military tract that later became Cayuga County). Most of my family was here before the revolution, except for my maternal Grandfather's branch. They were Irish and came to the US in c1850.

Another fun thing I've done in my search is to visit homes they lived in - Albert E and his wife lived on Frelinghuysen Avenue in Newark, NJ. The neighborhood has changed a bit - while seeking out their house, a scantily-clad, nice lady approached me and asked if I was "looking for a date." Realizing she didn't mean a birthdate or the date when the home was built, I declined, insisting I was doing genealogical research...:D

[Rhiannon12866]

35. Wow! I guess that we have much in common.

My first ancestor, from my paternal grandmother's side, arrived here from Holland on March 15th, 1663. He was Roelof Gerritse Van Der Werken. The last name has evolved, but his first child, Nicholas, who was born here, has many namesakes among my family, as well as one Gerrit, that I know of.:shrug:

That's pretty cool, knowing how your ancestors obtained their land, by fighting in the Revolution. I know that I have ancestors who fought, as well, since my Nana told me that she could belong to the DAR, but didn't think that this was the kind of organization that she ever wanted to join. I guess that she was a closet liberal, who refused to join an organization which practiced bigotry, but voted Republican all her life, including against FDR, which canceled out my Irish Democrat grandfather's vote, until voting for President Clinton in 1992 and 1996. She called me to tell me and I told her that I also voted for Clinton, but we didn't need to share this with the rest of the family.:evilgrin:

I've also visited several houses, as well as cemeteries, with my aunt. It hasn't always been easy, like your experience in Newark, LOL! I visited the building where my Nana had her first job, as teacher at a one room schoolhouse in Northumberland, NY. Her grandmother's house was directly across the street. She had had a stroke, so my Nana had to constantly look out, for signs of distress, so she could run home, if she was needed.:-(

I love doing this, since it really brings these people to life, though I was very close to my Nana (my paternal grandmother). My aunt and I took our lives in our hands, visiting one abandoned cemetery, way back in the woods, where we knew that numerous ancestors had been buried. But many of them were from the 1700s and the thin stones have fallen and are covered with years of leaves and debris. I have a cousin who was working on it. I should ask him how he's doing and if he needs more help, but he has three small kids and he's the "househusband," so I think I know the answer. But, we'll be in touch. BTW, he's my second cousin, once removed. LOL! He's my Dad's generation; I am the generation of his five-year-old!:crazy:

[Cooley Hurd]

36. Did Roelof enter via Nieuw Amsterdam?

To have Dutch ancestry that landed in the Nieuw Netherlands - wow! Your ancestors rubbed elbows with the first Roosevelts in the country! Damn them for rolling over to the Brits, though...:D

Unfortunately, I'm not certain of the politics of my ancestors - I know my Mom and Dad were STAUNCH Dems, but I have a sinking feeling the Hurd family, having been in North America since the 1600's, were probably charter members of the Know-Nothing Party...;)

As creepy as it sounds, I have to admit the cemetery hunts are fun! In most cases, I was probably the first visitor to the graves in years. I placed a stone on each one, to assure they weren't forgotten...

One link I'm trying to nail down now is a connection between Albert E's (my surname) grandfather, who was born c1795 in NJ, and a gentleman with my surname who entered the US from Gloucestershire, England as an convict in 1740. I read through the Complete Book of Emigrants in Bondage, 1614-1775 and have his date of departure from Bristol, but nothing else (including his crime:(). No idea of his port of entry, either. That's the earliest instance of my surname in the US, so the connection might be there?:shrug:

[Rhiannon12866]

37. Well, I have yet to hear back from my aunt, who's better at this than I am

Her daughter was in a bad car accident, with her baby, so she is probably away. But I can send this to my cousin, who I spoke of, since he is the best on this in my family that I know.:-)

Yeah, my ancestors were Republicans, what can I say? My Nana voted Democrat, for the first time in her life, for Clinton! I think that she finally realized that these guys supported what she really believed, since she was, her whole life, tolerant and accepting and, yes, liberal! But my Irish ancestors were Democrats, and still are voting Democratic and, more important, running for local office!:D

I have enjoyed my trips to the cemeteries, except for the one which has been abandoned. It truly broke my heart. My aunt and I almost broke our necks just reaching it, and there was little that we could do. We need to get an entire team in there, to clean it up. I will volunteer, but we need more than just me and my aunt.;(

I will let you know if and when I hear anything. I'll e-mail my cousin, who is very good. He might be able to suggest more sources. There are a lot of genealogy forums out there, and I know that my relatives are on them, so I may make a few phone calls, as well.:hi:

[CBHagman]

21. This is indeed addictive!

I've found that the free websites, such as FamilySearch.org and USGenWeb, to be the most valuable in terms of locating family information, though I would agree that there are transcription errors there and at EllisIsland.org.

Don't forget working with local genealogy societies and/or going through city directories and newspapers. I've gotten a lot of information through the genealogical research society in the county where my relatives lived, and the fees I pay are modest.

Look for microfilmed newspapers and city directories at the libraries in the area or borrow them through the family history center.

As for ages, I've found that my relatives were either mathematically challenged or huge liars when it came to ages. Also, on census records, some of the information was obtained second-hand, so bear that in mind.

Good luck!

[radwriter0555]

22. Actually, it's more likely that he's posing with his valued possessions...

like when our culture poses with a car, or a boat, or on a holiday.

Especially considering the slaves are in dirty clothing and not dressed up nicely as is the family.

The black woman on the porch is the house keeper, cooking and looking after the household and the children.

The other two are field hands, caring for the property, the crops and livestock.

Sorry to burst your bubble....

[Cooley Hurd]

23. The pic was taken in 1898...

...so they aren't slaves. Albert moved to VA in 1890ish from NJ, so it's possible he was a bit more progressive than the locals in Parksley. I did consider a "status symbol" motive for the picture, but I liked my conclusion better...;)

[radwriter0555]

26. Not to belabor the point, but slaves or low paid help was still very

much the norm up until the 40's.

The picture was a vanity portrait, but you can still see evidence of only modest success. The eldest child is barefoot, his suit doesn't fit. The gentleman isn't in a suit.

But your hopes are indeed far more positive!

[Cooley Hurd]

28. They definitely weren't rich, so the help probably were low-paid...

He owned a pattern-letter business, so the African-American male in the pic might be an employee from the shop. I know my father (the grandson of Albert and son to the toddler on the porch) abhored racism, so my guess is that my grandfather (he died 6 months before I was born) felt the same...

[THUNDER HANDS]

24. on a side note, how come nobody ever smiles in old photographs?

Everyone always has a serious look on their faces or is out-and-out frowning?

[Cooley Hurd]

25. Back then, exposure times for photos were long...

...and it was hard to hold a smile that long, I suppose.:shrug:

[AuntPatsy]

30. The reason that most old photos have non smiling faces is because

it was not exactly cheap to have such photos taken in those earlier times and so as not to have to do retakes, the subjects were all told to have these stoic expressions...

I have many of old photos, in some, there was seen perhaps one smile in such a large group but again, it was in most cases too expensive to take them over, so I assume that particular family member more than likely felt someone's displeasure...