DUers, females especially, I need your help PLEASE

[mark414]

So here's the situation

I'm a straight male dating an obviously straight female. everything is fantastic, albeit one, well pretty major problem.

she has issues, which she admits to readily.

her parents divorced when she was young, her father and now step mom are religious fundy nutcases, and her mother has been through a string of bad and even abusive relationships.

because of this she says she has never had a positive male role model in her life. this makes it difficult for her to trust men. she told me it was a miracle that she's able to spend so much time with me, though she does have issues and problems when it comes to intimacy or getting too close. we both hate it because neither of us want it to be that way, but she can't help it.

so my question, pretty much exclusively for female DUers, any of you who have grown up in a similar environment to this girl, with no positive male role models, how did you overcome that? any men or anyone else who knows someone or has been through similar situations what did you do?

are there any good books to read or things to try?

we both really want this to go away but have no idea what to do. she's been to a therapist in the past but is considering going again, but we want to do everything we can.

help, please?

[hlthe2b]

1. Only thing I can say, is go slow... trust doesn't develop overnight...

She needs to develop a new pattern of expectation from men to prove that not all are untrustworthy as she believes her father to be. Perhaps consider going to a therapist WITH HER.

[mark414]

2. slow for sure

we had a nice long talk about it all the other night and agreed to take it as slow as possible

it's just so frustrating because it's something she wants to get over but can't just yet

the therapy idea is a good one though...something to consider, thank you

[jdots]

3. I was in love with a woman with a background like that

for 4 years,there was allways a problem of trust on her part and i loved very much and miss her. I wish i had a clue other than just taking it slow and being the best friend she has ever had.

[Erika]

4. I grew up with no positive male role models. To say the least

My first marriage ended in divorce because my husband said I could not believe any man really loved me and I was on the fight about everything male. Thirty years later we are still friends to give our 2 kids and their kids warmth and acceptance. My advice, accept the party was hurt badly, (damaged goods) and only TLC can cure it, especiallly if a male had the same bruising experience. I've now been with the same man for 23 years.

[mark414]

5. well i didn't have the same experience

but do you think just love and patience is the key? that's what i'm doing now, it just feels like i should be doing more...

[Erika]

9. You have to realize that you are dealing with damaged goods

My acceptance of a male came when I realized he had been bruised as badly as I had been by a missing father and a bitter mother.

[MuseRider]

6. Therapy.

I grew up with an extremely abusive father. Issues were my thing! Nothing, not time after his death, not marriage, not going slow nothing was very helpful until I went into therapy.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

7. She needs to go back to a counselor

I never had a positive male role model either. Well, I did but he (my real dad) was forced out of my life by divorce, remarriage and stepfather adoption when I was seven and I never saw him again. Hello, abandonment issues!

Then I got my oh-so-fantastic alcoholic violent stepfather "raising" me.

Hello, Codependency!

Boy was I fucked up when it came to men.

Fortunately I met my husband when I was only 19, still too young for those issues to harden into huge intimacy hurdles.

But I have still had to struggle. Over the years, Mr. Moonbeam's absolute devotion, faithfulness and unconditional love for me has convinced me there are strong, loving, trustworthy men in the world, and I was lucky enough to get one of the best ones.

You are going to have to be really consistent and patient with her. I hope you are up to it. You don't mention your ages. She needs to go to a counselor and maybe check out the self-help section of the local bookstore. There are some good books out there for women with "daddy issues" as I used to call them.

Best of luck. It's very worth it to work through these things.

[mark414]

8. maybe that's a good sign

as we are both 19, unfortunately for her i think those intimacy hurdles hardened awhile ago...she's too young for this it's just not fair...

and yes, i'll wait 20 years if that's what it takes...so i think i have the patience thing down...

[mark414]

10. kick for help

[mark414]

11. i know it's late...but another kick

[Dukakis88]

12. Introduce her to the delightful "Man Show" on Comedy Central.

After a few episodes of that, she will be utterly trusting putty in your hands.

[Champ]

13. I'm going through similar problems

I thank you for posting this thread even though my comment probaly won't help. My girlfriend grew up with no real parental figure in her life, her grandmother raised her from an early age to her death and was raised in a group home till she got out. You can tell that affected her, she is diagnosed with depression, Was diagnosed before I met her. She has trust issues with males as well because many if not all of her boyfriends has done something that broke her heart or was really fucked up. I've only known her for just a little awhile but she has difficulty expressing her feelings to me. It is frustrating because the thing I want most is to be someone who she fell she can talk to when anything goes wrong. I've lost my patience a few times and I deeply regret that because I would hate to do anything that would make her feel she can't talk to me. As of now I'm trying everything I can to be patient, listen when she does express her feelings, and be carefull with what I say because I honestly don't have much experience dealing with those with depression. I love her alot and I sympathize with her, it can be very difficult growing up under the conditions in which she grew up in. I want her to be able to find some stability and find someone who does give her unconditional love(which very few showed her), I want that person to be me. I will do everything I can for her, but needed some advice which I thank again for posting this as I can read the response from others. :)

[mark414]

15. right on man

it's tragic enough that too many people in this country have stories like our two objects of fascination. and it's especially terrible because it affects that person for life. but for people like me who didn't grow up like that, that's the most we can do. just be strong and be there for them and listen and patient and do whatever you can to get them through it. glad to know i'm not alone.

[Dukakis88]

14. Give her a remote that she can use to taser your balls if she gets scared

[Maddy McCall]

16. Until she develops self-esteem....

she can't have a healthy relationship. Period.

[amazona]

23. nah not so

I have very low self-esteem (physical abuse victim) and I've had a healthy relationship for over 20 years. Once self-esteem is destroyed in early childhood, it's gone, so what. You can go on and live a great life ... but not if you focus on the negative and call yourself "damaged goods" as so many have done in this thread. You just have to blow that stuff off before it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

People with low self-esteem can be some of the most successful in this society, because no amount of achievement will fill the hole in their self-esteem. They can be the great inventors, artists, etc. Low self-esteem is not all bad. If I had great self esteem and nothing to prove, I never would have done half what I've done in my life.

As for relationships, the majority of people have a little core of doubt deep in their soul about their worthiness, and still they find love.

[bliss_eternal]

17. You're awesome!

Hi Mark--
I think it is pretty cool that you are willing to work so hard to continue with this relationship. It is no small feat what you are doing. But when you make a commitment to someone that has these kinds of issues, it can be beneficial for whoever they become involved with, too. While challenging, it is a huge opportunity for emotional growth for you, too. :)

I have/had male issues. I was sexually assaulted years ago. I did therapy and it did help. But one has to be careful not to become dependent on therapy. If your gf's male issues come from having been assaulted or abused, she may want to go to a support group. They are available in most big cities, through clinics, hospitals, etc. There are also support groups for partners of women that have gone through such experiences which can be helpful too.

I went through times in my life when I got involved with guys that were very abusive toward me, because I thought that was what love looked like. With therapy and a lot of hard work on my own, I realized that is not what love is. I am now in my sixth year of marriage to a very gentle, kind and loving man--who I adore!

As a survivor of abuse, you don't wake up one day and say, "gee I'm all better now!" LOL! I will probably always have some issues stemming from what happened to me. But it does get easier to deal with and doesn't throw me for the mental whammy that it used to. LOL!

Anyway, don't know if this helps you at all. Just remember she has to do her own emotional work, but you can be supportive of her without taking on all her issues and pain. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to be there. Also ask her what feels good, safe and supportive for her. There are some great books out there--you may want to do a search on amazon.com.

Best wishes to you both!
Feistygrrl:)

[China_cat]

21. There are still going

to be hidden triggers. I call them landmines because you don't know where they are or what they'll do when you stumble over one. But, once exploded, they're gone for all time.

[onebigbadwulf]

18. People don't change. Dump her.

Even if she was somehow able to overcome this "problem" she would change everything about her and wouldn't be the same person you love right now anymore.

Let her go.

[Dukakis88]

19. On a serious note, I kind of agree.

Psychologically, it might be useful for you to ask yourself why you are so intent to care for this person who has expressed distrust in being intimate with you. If you have done nothing to hurt or betray her trust and yet she treats you like an enemy and keeps you at a distance, there is a certain point where you have to look out for your own needs. The purpose of a romantic relationship, at least in my opinion, is to have someone to be extraordinarily intimate and trusting with. If you don't have that trust, what do you have? Especially when there seems to be nothing you can do to earn it?

I guess the main thing I wonder is if you were raised to emotionally care for your mother or some other close female figure in your life at a young age, and are seeking to replicate that experience, as this is what your only experience of love is -- tending to someone else's needs instead of your own, constantly trying to prove how sensitive and unselfish you are, trying to prove you aren't like those other men (your father, perhaps, or other boys around you). I don't know. That's my dimestore Jungian, and my own childhood experience, talking.

The bottom line is that you need love and intimacy and trust just as much as she needs patience and tenderness. You can't place her needs ahead of your own, particularly at this early stage. I could see if you had a wonderful relationship for years and then she got ill or had a psychologically damaging experience, that it would be important for you to act to preserve what used to be a healthy relationship. But when it is unhealthy from the start, you might need to ask yourself if this is worth getting into. Do you want to be earning her trust for the next twenty years? She may never change, may never be able to give you more than she is giving you now.

[jukes]

20. mark414

apsi no diss intended here. seriously. you seem like a likable guy.

you've posted several threads on relationships of your friends or yourself. or yourself involved in a friend's relationship.

there's a word you need to look up, and you may find a finite but slightly different def, so ck thoroughly: "anaclisis".



well-meaning amateurs can get you in deep shit.

[mark414]

28. i think you have me mistaken with someone else...

i post on here relatively frequently but this is the first time i've ever posted about a relationship of mine or a friends or anyones...so you must have me confused with someone

no harm done though, and if it makes you feel any better, i'm not taking any of this advice for gospel, it is what it is and i'm just curious to know what other people have done in similar situations

[jukes]

56. k, my bad.

just being fatherly.

[mark414]

59. it's all good

i appreciate the thought

[amazona]

22. no positive male role models

Well, despite having what some what call a lack of positive role models as a little girl, I have a different point of view from many.

I think you and your g/f need to get away from discussing "trust" and from pressuring her to get too close. She can blame her past for needing more space and not wanting to be as close as so people want to be, or she can just accept herself for what she is. Some women do not need 24/7 closeness and intimacy. I am one of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. She can splash out money on therapists, she can take medicines to dull her natural need for a little more distance, or she can accept that she needs more distance than many other people. I choose to go the latter route.

My dad was promiscuous. I could blame him and say, "Oh woe," I need less intimacy and more space, and boo hoo it is all Daddy's fault.

Or I could say, look, we are animals, and different animals are naturally less confiding and in need of more distance, and there is no blame to be exchanged. It is just the way of our species.

I just don't think it's emotionally possible to buy trust at a therapists' office or to pressure someone into trusting you. I think it is better to take a light touch. You can love each other and allow your g/f to have private places within. I just think it works better in the end if you give less attention to the endless discussions.

My partner and I have been together for 20-plus years despite my need for space or distance, so I think we are doing something right.

My advice is to just not worry about it. Don't read books on the subject, don't "try" to overcome it, just let your relationship be what it is.

[never cry wolf]

24. I am in a similar situation

I reconnected with my old HS flame on line about 3 years ago after no contact for 22 years. There has always been a wonderful naturalness and ease about our relationship and after 22 years we picked up like we had never been away. We finishe each others thoughts and each finds the other the funniest person they know. We are best of friends, and will be forever.

However, she was sexually abused by her alcoholic father as a young girl, her parents divorced and then her father died when she was 13. She was always attracted to the jerks, and thus our on/off relationship over 8 years always ended with her finding some a-hole that attracted her. Her first marriage was to a physical abuser who was also a druggie, her second, and current to an alcoholic mental abuser. She self admits her past mistakes in being attracted to the jerks and wishes it weren't so, yet she is stuck for now because of her kids.

Soon after we reconnected she told me that every male in her life has let her down, and yes, terms of endearment and signs of affection are tough for her. Ahhhh, but when they do come, they mean alot more because you know they are sincere! Patience is the key, patience and unconditional acceptance of her as she is. Know that in her heart, she has a special place for you and take what signs you do get as a great compliment, for they are against her nature. It takes time to overcome the distrust she has built up over a lifetime and you need to take it as it comes, on her schedule and in her ways.

Soon after we reconnected she asked me to please never let her down like every other male in her life, I have done my best not to and to be there for her with whatever she needs from me, for the most part putting my own needs and desires on the back burner. Like I said, we are now best friends for life, someday possibly so much more. She calls me her knight in shining armor, and I am very honored by that.

Hang in there!

[sister moon]

25. RUN! Don't walk, RUN RUN RUN AWAY!!!!!! and change your phone number.

[radwriter0555]

48. An excellent idea. If she was REALLY into you, she'd trust you, no matter

what.

She has too much baggage and she's not that into you.

So walk away.

[Arkana]

26. You wanna go SLOW.

That is the key. Trust is tough to build, but easy to destroy. She has to be willing to let her guard down, but you also have to tread carefully.

[skygazer]

27. It doesn't go away on its own

Therapy is the best and most obvious answer and couples therapy would be ideal - because your behavior, even the best intended behavior - can impact her.

Speaking from experience - lousy male role models, two failed marriages - it's not an easy thing to overcome. Trust issues are huge. Don't expect miracles. But this is something that requires serious work and serious commitment to accomplish. The hardest thing is to stop pulling away when things get serious. I've sabotaged many a relationship that way. And that's where counseling helps.

Honesty is key and her telling you that she has issues is good. You being willing to help with them is good. I wish you both luck.

[the Princess]

29. This is gonna take time and patience on your part

If you think she is worth the time and effort then be prepared for the long haul. :) BTW - I think she probably is worth it or you wouldn't be asking this question.

I grew up in an abusive home. I was molested at age 7 and I have been in several abusive relationships. I have been in and out of therapy for almost 20 years and I still have issues. The most encouraging thing I can say is - it never really goes away it just gets less painful. And with someone who loves you to help you through all the shit - it makes it that much easier.

MR CO Liberal has gone through so much shit with me - and he stood there like a rock for me to hang onto when it got really hard. He never wavered - never even thought of walking away and I cannot think of anyone else in my life who has been there like that for me.

But it's hard - and I cannot tell you it will be OK - I don't know that. But therapy is a good idea. And if you are willing to stand by her through what may be the most difficult thing she has ever had to go through - then tell her that and mean it. If for a second you think you cannot be there for her - tell her now and end it now. It might be more than she can bear if you bail half way through.

You have some hard thinking to do. This isn't easy. But I wish you luck. And I hope you have what it takes to stand by her side while she heals.

[CO Liberal]

44. When Someone Is Worth It...

...you do what has to be done. And you're definitely worth it, honey!!

:loveya:

[chaska]

30. Sounds fishy to me...

In my experience, when a woman starts talking that stuff, it's to give herself an out. When the time comes she can go nuts and leave, and you'll "understand".

[Dukakis88]

31. Yep.

It could her way of saying she doesn't find you sexually attractive, but she doesn't have the courage to tell the truth. Then 2 years later you find out she's been doing the wild thing behind your back with some musclebound, mulletheaded redneck at the gym named Darryl who works as a roadie for Quiet Riot.

[sister moon]

33. For example.

[MsAnthropy]

32. She's full of it

"Issues" are just an excuse. If you were Brad Pitt, you'd see her "issues" disappear pretty quickly.

[NewJeffCT]

35. LOL - that is true

Unfortunately, it is true. And, it is true for men as well...

I could use my ex-wife as an example. She was rather, um, well-endowed for her petite frame. She told me one of the reasons she liked me so much at first was because I was the first guy that looked her in the eyes when I spoke with her and didn't stare further down at her chest. I said that was BS because if I was Matt Dillon (her dream guy at the time), she wouldn't mind a bit if he stared at her chest. At least I got her to laugh.

Just like how I said that I'd never date a woman that smoked... but if Jessica Alba showed up at my office at work & was ready to go, but had a cigarrette in her mouth, I might make an exception.

[the Princess]

37. Really?

Have you ever been abused or in an abusive relationship?

How compassionate of you. :eyes:

[MsAnthropy]

40. All of the above

Don't judge me

[the Princess]

41. If you don't want to be judged

Then don't judge others sweetie. Compassion works both ways

[MsAnthropy]

43. What are "issues" but psychobabble for "neuroses" or "hangups"?

It's a new concept put out by the New Agers, who have hijacked our vocabulary with junk like "issues". I don't know anyone who had a functional family or positive male role models, since that definition has changed over the last couple of decades also. My father's generation believed to be a role model was to go to work and let the wife raise the kids ("parenting" hadn't been invented yet, either).
If she is so immature that she uses a catchall like "issues", she is not ready for a relationship, no matter how much therapy she gets.

[the Princess]

46. Wow

How judgemental of you

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Wrong

If a woman has any sense at all, conventional handsomeness is only icing on the cake, not the main attraction.

[mark414]

45. well...not to throw myself on a pedestal

the physical attraction is most definitely there

i'm real conceited in saying this but we are both "beautiful people," not by just our own standards but by society's as well

so that's not it, sorry

[the Princess]

47. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

What you call beauty may not be what I call beauty. To me a man with some grey in his beard and a soft middle and some lines around his eyes - is what makes him beautiful to me. Life leaves its marks of beauty on everyones faces.

[mark414]

50. i know

the poster just seemed to be saying that lack of the socially accepted definition of beauty, the brad pitts of the world, could be part of the problem. it is not. that is all.

[SarahB]

34. The best way to gain trust....

is to be trustworthy. Don't lie to her, don't let her down when she's most vulnerable, and if she expresses her feelings about something she wants to work on within the relationship, don't react with anger.

Earlier today, I initially responded with this long, drawn out thing about my life. Then I decided not to post it. I had some difficult childhood experiences, but I can also look at the good things: I have a father who was a nurturing and respectful man, I was raised with a healthy sexual attitude, and I'm fortunate to be a woman who has never been a victim of physical or sexual violence. Still, I, like many women (like many people), have had things to work through and I find trusting people difficult as well, most certainly there must be a level of trust before I would want to be intimate with someone.

All you can do is the best you can. If she has work to do for herself, she must take that step.

[legally blonde]

36. here's my two cents

I think that you should give her some time. Obviously you care about her and you both are frustrated by her inability to be intimate. Couples and individual therapy can do wonders. Don't write her off too quickly. Women who have been burned by previous relationships are hesitant to jump into another potential disaster. Just be patient.

[the Princess]

39. You people being so flippent and intolerant of this woman's feelings

Are you in committed relationships?

Do you know what it means to love someone and want to stand by them through tough times?

Get over yourselves. Not everyone is out to use people. And I feel sorry for you that you have so little compassion for others.

[radwriter0555]

49. This woman is making excuses. If she was into this guy, the issues would

fly out the window.

I'm a chick. I have issues conveniently when I'm not into the guy I'm dating. I know from experience. :D

Like the other poster said, if dude was brad pitt there would be NO issues.

[mark414]

51. and like i said

the physical attraction thing is definitely not the issue. i have sort of a big head about that, but whatever.

she's never been able to get close to any guy, period. and both of us want to work through this because she and i both want so badly for it to work. if you could see her eyes when she talks about it you would know.

[the Princess]

53. You sound like you really care

so do what you have to - to work this out. It's worth the effort in the end.

:)

[mark414]

55. i do really care

and thanks for all your help and advice. i really appreciate you having the courage to share you story. thank you.

[the Princess]

57. Anytime

My life is an open book!

Good luck and I hope it all works out.

[the Princess]

52. Sorry I don't agree

Whether you love someone or not the issues are there. They just are. It's better to deal with them head on then to have them come up 20 years down the line.

If you're using *issues* as an excuse to not be with someone - shame on you. That's disgusting.

[hippiechick]

42. Yes, and I'm sorry to say ...

I'm nearly 40 and still very single. If her background is anything like mine, she has an incredibly hard battle ahead of her.

If she is willing to try therapy, by all means, encourage her, love her and support her decisions.

Best of luck to the both of you !



:hippie:

[mark414]

60. thanks

i really appreciate it

[Midlodemocrat]

54. You sound like a nice guy

the book Toxic Parents has helped many people. Might be something you could peruse and see if it is useful. Good luck.

[mark414]

58. one final kick for the night crowd