Hands up who hates jam bands?!

[Aiptasia]

I'm so over Jam bands it isn't even funny. Who'se with me?

[sniffa]

1. i am

and i've never enjoyed a jam band.

[northernsoul]

2. always have, always will

any song that that goes longer than three minutes in one seriously thin ice in my book

[Wallew]

3. What is...

Sorry for being out of touch. What IS a JAM BAND? Sorry for asking a stupid question. I've been living in a cave (musically speaking) for the past ten years.

[Phillycat]

12. The genre of Grateful Dead, Phish, Widespread Panic, Moe,

String Cheese Incident, etc etc etc.

Basically bands whose songs tend to go on for about an hour and a half because they are so busy noodling on their instruments in some sort of stoned trance that they don't realize they are mindnumbingly dull.

Bands that suck, basically. Usually musically/technically very proficient artists, but with no concept of song structure or not being self-indulgent. Self-absorbed players.

[LSdemocrat]

4. What are jam bands?

Does it refer to a genre of music? Some fashion accessory? :shrug:

[mdhunter]

11. Yes, a genre

A type of music, most related to rock, that grew out of late 60's culture. Characterized by unending solos, longish songs, more complex music, and, to their detractors, self satisfying drivel. Grateful Dead, Phish and The Allman Brothers are popular examples, though the latter might be more rightly put into the "Southern Rock" category.

[LSdemocrat]

18. Ok, yeah I'm not a fan of that

[Phillycat]

13. See above.

[DenverDem]

5. Then don't listen to them.

Pretty easy solution.

[Threedifferentones]

6. ME

I just don't likem.

3DO

[dolo amber]

7. Me me me me me me me

Freakin' noodley guitar nonsense. :puke:

[sangh0]

27. Replace "guitar" with "sax" or "trumpet" or some other horn

and you could be repeating what many have said about some of the greatest names in jazz.

[dolo amber]

30. Fair 'nuff

I oddly *don't* feel that way about jazz. Maybe it's just cos they're usually hippies that makes it wrong. :D ;)

[Zuni]

32. But Jazz is different in that it is well written/these jam bands

write terrible songs and use them as vehicles for self indulgent soloing.

Compare good jazz/rock jams like Miles Davis's Bitches Brew to Phish or moe.

[sangh0]

33. Yes and no

I agree that many do have terrible songs, particularly the newer jam bands. And Moe's songwriting has gone way downhill. But check out things like the Deads "Sand and Spirit", "Unbroken Chain", "The Wheel" etc and you'll find some very well written songs.

And then there's Zappa. I don't see how he could be called a poor songwriter or self-indulgent soloist

As it is in many things, the crap outnumbers the gold.

[LifeDuringWartime]

54. have you heard mcbain?

mcbain might be my favorite moe. song...especially the vibes solo section

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

58. Zappa

is not really a jam band artist though...

[chenGOD]

42. Phish are some incredible musicians.

Listen to some of the songs they have written and you will see that they use many many jazz structures/harmonic progressions/ideas on soloing.

I've never heard this "moe" but as a fan of both Miles Davis and Phish I have no problem enjoying both of them equally.

[ZoCrowes]

84. Complicated arrangements

does not a good song make.

[BlueJazz]

41. I think (Well..I Hope) that folks aren't talking about great Jazz Solos

I like Bands like The old Almond Bros that could pull off a long song/set with great solos but as far as the other usual crap that is played by "Musicians" (I use that term loosely)I can leave it in a second.
The Majority of Jam Bands just don't have the schooled/Talented players to pull it off....

[sangh0]

43. I agree with that last sentence

whole heartedly

[BlueJazz]

48. I'm a little bit biased towards the Almond clan.

Many years ago I played in a bottle club in Jacksonville Florida and Duane and Dicky Betts played in the early part.
I talked to them several times(this was before they were stars) and I remember asking them who they listened to. They said "Oh..Charlie Parker, Jim Hall, Stan Getz, Urbie Green"

Needless to say ...my opinion of them went up several steps! :)

[Phillycat]

49. I love Soft Cell! Marc Almond is a genius!

[realisticphish]

77. lol

and yes, i saw your other thred :)


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[sangh0]

52. IMO, ALL of the good jam bands (ex ABB, GD, Phish)

have a strong jazz influence. I would go as far as to say a jazz influence is required.

[bullimiami]

8. uggghhh

horrorshow.
we used to call the noodly guitar nonsense. woodallah woodallah.





I guess some of us uptighters just like a little structure with our music.

[LifeDuringWartime]

9. whatever

moe. rocks my face off

[StopTheMorans]

10. OOOH OOH OOH MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i phuckin hate jam bands :evilgrin:

[NJ_Lib]

14. Jam bands rule...

But they have to be good... The Grateful Dead was the ultimate jam band... The Allman Brothers, jam band of sort... Santana? One man jam band...

Jam bands are essentially, musician's music... Anybody can put together a three minute song... But playing for three hours, improvising, using musical ideas that pop into your head as you go? Good luck... Not too many can pull that off...

Like it or not, you've got to give credit where credit's due...

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Ooooh! Do We Disagree About That

Jam bands are NOT musician's music. As a matter of fact, i don't know a single player (and i know dozens) who would give any of the bands mentioned above a listen. The Dead may be the ultimate jam band, but ultimate is just a descriptor rather than a qualifier. I don't care for their stuff AT ALL! And, i've been a musician, at the semi-pro level or higher, since 1972. I can play some, and i don't think those guys were worth a crap.

Also, playing for 3 hours without worrying about whether anyone in the audience digs it is something EVERYONE can pull off. Being able to improvise at random and at length and play interesting stuff with very high execution is what not many can pull off. Your pals in the Dead would qualify for the doing it, but not the interesting at high execution part.

Sorry, but jam bands are not for musicians. They're musical masturbaters with no reall musical purpose or convicion.
The Professor

[sangh0]

36. Professor, if you like bluegrass music at all

check out some of Jerry Garcia's work with David Grisman. Paticularly "So What", which is a cover of a jazz tune.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. Bluegrass Has Its Place

I'd rather listen to roots music or spacegrass (the other extreme i guess) than rock noodling.
The Professor

[sangh0]

88. Then I recommend David Grisman

He has some CD's with Garcia, some with other bluegrass artists, and still more with his own band. Some are pure bluegrass, some are jazzy, and some are fusions.

All are impeccably produced, and his playing (on mandolin) is incomparable. No noodling.

on edit: Grisman is not a jam band, not even when he plays with Garcia.

[jefferson_dem]

38. In circles i've traveled, musicians listen to those who sure CAN jam but

not so-called jam bands. Think Fripp, Mahavishnu / McLaughlin, John Zorn, Tom Waits, Can, and so on.

[sangh0]

40. I think you just made an important distinction

between musicians who are great improvisors, and bands that based on improvisation.

Kudos!

[ProfessorGAC]

70. Now You're Talking

Remember the famous Carl Palmer line, re: the Dead: "We can jam with them, but they can't jam with us."
The Professor

[chenGOD]

47. I'm disappointed with the prof in this post...

I've read (and respected) many of your posts on music before. But to say a band like Phish are musical masturbators is a severe underestimation of their musical ability (I happen to think they can play circles around the Dead, who I've always though of as average).

[ProfessorGAC]

71. They Can Play Circles Around The Dead

But so can my niece, and she's 9.
The Professor

[NJ_Lib]

50. I totally disagree...

I come from a family of musicians and can call a few pros my friends... If you think any guitar player can get up there for three hours and play while their audience are hanging on every note and begging for more, then we just do not agree about this... To say you don't care for it is one thing but to say that anybody can do what The Grateful Dead did and it's not worth a crap, is just wrong...

I don't know about these other guys but Garcia was up there with the best of them... He was a first class guitar AND banjo player and his music spoke to his followers... His guitar playing went right to the heart of so many people... Even President Clinton made a comment when he passed away... That my friend, is not a man who is not "worth a crap"...

80,000 tickets selling out in three hours consistently over three decades speaks for itself... I can tell you that not all of us loved Garcia because we're drug addicts as the media would like to have you believe...

[Rambis]

56. There was a great article a few years back

It had Branford Marsalis talking about playing with the dead and how intricate things were etc etc etc. Old souls that were tapped into something spritual etc etc etc. Experimenting with ancient rhythms etc etc etc. Some of the best jazz artists I have ever played with etc etc etc

When I was playing with Sting, I couldn't play anything jazz-like because it wouldn't work within the structure of the music. But with the Dead, I could play anything I wanted because they were so open and loose. When they were clicking it was great."

Marsalis always pulled out a bit of wisdom about music or the music profession from his stories. As he continued to talk about the Dead, he contrasted the way they played with what he hears in current rock music.

"They were really an improvisational rock band," he said. "It was something that was relatively common in the '60s and early '70s and something that is completely nonexistent now. Electronic rock music has a tendency to be rigid, all the parts are meticulous, like a machine, and there's not much deviation. It was nice to be in a band that had that much sway to it. It was hip."

[ProfessorGAC]

73. Improvisation and "Good" Aren't Always Synonymous

The Professor

[ProfessorGAC]

72. If You Say So

I'm not going to get in a fight over this, but i've heard lots of guitar players try extended jamming. They generally stink. That would make my opinion of them pretty much the same of an awful lot of Dead stuff i've heard.

We've got a friend of the band who is a Dead fanatic. I've heard lots as he's tried many times over the years to "convert" me. No soap!
The Professor

[NJ_Lib]

83. Is that a challenge? :)

Fair enough, Professor... I won't try to change your mind... That's what makes us Democrats... I respect your opinions, you respect mine.... Peace?

But if I could just have your address, I have this killer tape that,

...Ok... Ok... Sorry... I'll let it go... ;)

:hug:

[ProfessorGAC]

86. LOL!

Good stuff. We will agree to disagree. I'll like what i like, and you will like what you like. Neither of us ever liked what we like to impress one another anyway, right? And neither of us ever disliked what we dislike to piss one another off. Also, right?
The Professor

[jpgray]

45. Not just anybody can put together a three minute song

Very few bands today are able to, for example. Try writing a brilliantly catchy pop single--it's much more difficult than fooling around in A minor for a half hour.

[EstimatedProphet]

55. I agree

Anyone can put together a song in a professional studio. You don't even have to know how to play any instruments.
People that don't like jamming because it doesn't fit a convenient format are missing the creativity.

[mac56]

59. "Anybody can put together a three minute song... "

You are so, so wrong. A good three-minute pop song is so much harder to craft than a 45-minute noodling lead guitar solo. The three-minute pop song is craft. The 45-minute solo is calisthenics.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

64. And let me just add...

that writing a 3-minute pop tune that really packs a punch is a skill/talent that takes years to hone. It's not something that just anyone can do.

My complaint with jam band music is that it appeals largely to people who are high (of course there are exceptions to this). Not that I have a problem with that but it's like electronica in that if you're not on ecstacy, you're probably gonna have a hard time getting into it.

[mac56]

66. What did the Deadhead say when he ran out of dope?

"Man! This band sucks!"

[Mallifica]

74. LMAO -great joke

[NJ_Lib]

92. Oh, so only The Dead draws boozing and drugs...

... I see, fans of most other bands come to the shows straight... They don't "party" during the shows.... They don't drink and they certainly don't smoke... Only Deadheads do those things...

The Dead is like liberals... No matter how hard they tried, how much they gave, how successful they became and how humble they were about it all, everybody still loves to tie them to the whipping post...

I think their success speaks for itself... Unless all 50 million Deadheads worldwide are stupid and stoned...

[Aiptasia]

15. A Jam band is...

Any band that loves to play every song or concert like it's an extended version. They usually play festival venues and have neo-hippy followings. Famous jam bands include:

.Moe
Widespread Panic
The Greatful Dead
Phish
Black Crows
etc.

Any band that plays 15 minute versions of a 2 minute song is excercising musical masturbation IMHO.

[Aiptasia]

17. oh yeah, i'm a musician

and it really isn't that hard to weedle on and on as you'd think. It's not improv jazz for crying out loud.

[teach1st]

16. Who hates bands that...

...improvise and think on their feet and aren't constricted to the commercial radio three-minute restricions?

Some are good, some aren't. Assuming you don't like jazz, either.

[Aiptasia]

19. Actually I love jazz

I just hate jam bands.

[teach1st]

21. OK..

I respect your opinion.

Good jam is, in my opinion, as valid and as compelling and interesting as jazz. Throw in a cultural aspect, which, when talking about late 60s jam, is an important consideration, and we've got something special. Bad jam ain't special and is often nauseatiing, I'll grant you that. I remember some awful Grand Funk stuff at the '70 Atlanta Festival.

[Zuni]

35. Late 60s blues based jams like Cream or Santana

are far better than Phish or Moe.
I do not include Cream, Santana, Paul Butterfield etc. in the Jam Band genre. They are real bands with good songs who like to jam.

[sangh0]

37. That's called "The no true Scottishman" fallacy

NO real jam band is good. Cream? Oh, they're good, so theyre not a jam band.

[Zuni]

46. Cream/Santana are bands that can jam

not jam bands.

[sangh0]

51. Actually, Cream is considered a jam band

The 1st jam band, by many

[Wat_Tyler]

57. Surely that 'accolade' goes to the Grateful Dead?

[sangh0]

87. I would say so

but others disagree

[jefferson_dem]

26. I'm with you on growing disdain for "jam bands." The worst has to be DMB!

It's so "poseurish." Only pretend. No substance.

Think Waka/Jawaka versus yet another long-winded ho-hum Allman's rendition of Statesboro Blues, eh?

[YEM]

20. You do realize Zappa was the king of jamming?

Maybe you don't.

[Aiptasia]

24. Yes I do

Since I own most of his catalogue..

But Frank's dead now, so I can't speak ill of the dead. I respect Frank more for the PMRC years than for any other period of his life anyway.

Been meaning to change my avatar...

[Zuni]

31. I love jazz, but not jam bands

endless, mindless, self indulgent jams are just not appealing.

Jazz is different.
Bitches Brew by Miles davis is jazz/rock fusion but is so incredible and jarring that it draws you in and hooks you.
Phish music is boring, irritating and pointless.

[Wat_Tyler]

22. Me.

Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.Dull.

[politicat]

23. Yep, and I pronounce that /j/ like Spanish. Ham bands.

Over-rated claptrap. If you want to listen to experimental music, try some jazz? Or maybe write a bleedin' symphony. But really, I've heard your A-C-E chord progression a couple dozen times in the last half-hour. It's not a fugue, man, you're playing with Alzheimer's. Have you forgotten you played that already?

A song doesn't have to be three minutes, but repetition is for losers who are too stoned to realize they played that before.

Pcat

[Aiptasia]

25. I agree

It's the same triads over and over again.

[chenGOD]

44. If you think Phish usues the same triads over and over..

you either haven't listened to any phish or are not the musician you think you are.

I'm not saying that Phish is the greatest ting since Bach, but they have a lot of creativity and musical talent that puts them leagues above their "contempories".

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

65. I agree re Phish...

These guys are top o' the heap when it comes to jam bands (say what you will about the heap) but their lyrics are bloody awful!!!

[politicat]

89. Not a phish fan. I'm on Boulder, home of the SCI.

They're #1 jam band in the area, followed by Dead, followed by Phish.

Since the events where they play are likely to be filled with lots of pot smoke (to which I am violently allergic), I refuse to see them live. Learning whether they play the same triads over and over live is not worth my life and health. As for my musicianship, I will admit that my training is primarily classical and baroque. I also have a very sensitive ear. In re: SCI, I must say that their instruments are rarely tuned to my standards.

In recordings, they do use the same combinations of chords repetitively. This much I picked up from a couple of hours of listening to Sirius.

Pcat

[Zuni]

28. I cannot stand aimless jam band music

Now, that is not to say I can't really enjoy hard jamming---I love blues based jams, particularly the kind the Paul Butterfield band does.

[shesemsmom]

34. As my old friend says

I live in hopes that some day real music will return!!

[tsakshaug]

39. Some yes some no

Some dead and phish just goes on and on and on and on
listening to the Allmans jam on the other hand was great.

[UpsideDownFlag]

53. if you're talking about Dream Theater or Phish...count me out. i love 'em

nt

[LifeDuringWartime]

60. dream theater a jam band??

thats a first

[Wat_Tyler]

61. Ooh. Jam-prog.

Imagine. :scared:

[ZoCrowes]

80. Oh god

Jam-prog...now I'm going to have nightmares

[UpsideDownFlag]

63. ever seen them live? they'll have guitar solos for literally 30 minutes.

if that's not a jam, i dont know what is.

[Wat_Tyler]

67. I dunno, by that criteria, Sonic Youth and Smashing Pumpkins are Jam.

[UpsideDownFlag]

68. dream theater has a much more advanced sound them either of them.

they're probably the most technically proficient band in america...and i've never heard of the pumpkins having 30-40 min. guitar solos.

[realisticphish]

76. i had never thought about that

i LOVE DT...mike portnoy is god. and i love phish, too obviously. not so much a fan of the grateful dead


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[LifeDuringWartime]

62. if youre not a fan of jam bands

youd probably like umphrey's mcgee. long, long solos are kept to a minimum. lots of hard rock influence. theyre almost more of a prog rock band than jam band

[Mallifica]

75. me!!

I'm also over the hopelessly devoted. It's truly a subculture that I don't understand.

[ZoCrowes]

78. ME!!

There are some great bands out there who jam or play extended solos (Black Crowes, Gov't Mule, Allmans, Free, Zeppelin etc.)but they are all blues-rock bands with lots of improv. Bands like String Cheese Incident, Phish, Widespread Panic etc. all annoy the living shit out of me.

[warrens]

79. Ooh-ooh, ME!

Wankery, sheer wankery.

[EstimatedProphet]

81. I would just like to make one point:

Jam bands are traditionally ver left-leaning. Heavy studio-produced bands/groups are more centrist because they are commercial, for example, look at Cher or Britney Spears.
So, clearly, good Democrats should listen to the Dead. And remember that Britney said we should all shut up and follow president Bush...
SO THERE! :)

[Wat_Tyler]

82. Bizarre argument.

One of the Ramones was a Repub, after all.

[jefferson_dem]

85. As was / is Alice "Freakin'" Cooper. I love to interject politics

into discussions whenever possible. Not sure we can shoehorn it into this one however.

[EstimatedProphet]

90. Bizarre thread

Not m fault if people who don't like the Grateful Dead are mindless philistines whose idea of music is smashing bricks into their ears while the torture cats.
:)

[Wat_Tyler]

91. Course not ;-)