Who else gets PISSED re customer service in INDIA??

[latebloomer]

Just called my credit card company because I tried to pay for a purchase with AmEx and was told my card was not active. I called, and the representative insisted that I had never activated the card-- meanwhile I've been using it for 2 months! Last month they claimed they never received my payment, charged me finance charges and a $29 late fee, then, after I sent them the payment AGAIN, admitted they had located the first payment.

Soi admittedly I was feeling a bit pissy. But the icing on the cake was that I was dealing with a customer service representative located in India!

I am just so angry about all the jobs being outsourced --first manufacturing , then the supposedly hot-into-the 21st century IT field, of which my husband is an unemployed member-- now customer service for AMERICAN Expres! They don't give a rat's ass about Americans-- all they care about is their GREED and in the current political climate GREED IS GOOD!

Don't know if the outsourcing contributes to the shitty service, but one can only hope that eventually their own cheapness will catch up with them.

Rant off.

[Nailzberg]

1. Speaking of outsourcing call centers to India

Typical GOP shit, outsourcing their fundraising call centers to India. How can anyone think the GOP cares about the American economy.

[latebloomer]

2. THEY ARE?!?

Man, that is gonna work against them!

[Don_G]

4. They Did!!!!

I can't wait until the articles and editorials appear in papers in Rural America across the nation. That's going to cost the GOP dearly.

[JoeMemphis]

7. Don't Count on It.

We can hardly count on the Democratic candidates to expose GOP nonsense like this. This is a story that will hurt Bush from sea to shining sea, and the DNC has yet to expose the GOP's outsourcing.

[Nailzberg]

12. Unfortunatly, I don't think America will notice or care

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34323

[quilp]

11. You sure? Sounds too stupid even for Republicans.

That would be a bombshell even the dumbest voter would understand. Do have any idea where this information comes from?

[jus_the_facts]

15. Yep it's true.....it was posted in LBN a few weeks ago......

.....read about it right here on DU!! :evilfrown:

[RobinA]

96. I'm Sure,

about a year ago I tried to look into changing Internet providers, so I figured I'd call the biggies and see what their deals were. Every single one of them had telephone people that couldn't understand me and I couldn't understand them. Not only was there a serious accent problem on both ends, but they couldn't understand me AT ALL when I asked a question that wasn't the typical, "How much does your service cost." "Send me a disc" was not in their vocabulary. Generally I'm not one of these "If you're going to work with Americans, learn to speak the language" people, but I thought it was a little ridiculous for these American companies to hire telephone workers for Amercians who can't understand or speak the language.

Needless to say, I didn't use any of these companies.

[Catshrink]

20. Do you have a link to this?

I've heard it many times, but want a link.... thanks.

on edit.... got it. Thanks

[Don_G]

3. I Do

Just bought a new Notebook about 6 weeks ago and I have 2 more firms to add to your list: Dell and Micro$haft.

I needed support, called and kept getting off-shore employees who couldn't understand my problems very well. I finally got someone at Dell in the US who straigntened out the problems I was having.

Needless to say, I will NOT knowingly do business with any firm that ships jobs overseas.

[flama]

36. Gee, I must have gotten lucky

When I called Dell - though it was last year, I got an American speaking guy with a great sense of humor who understood my every word and repeated some of his in case I missed them.

Just last week, I had to deal with MSN. (Well, ya gotta deal with someone!) The guy who helped me was actually in Washington state! Of course, after four years, he had yet to see Bill Gates anywhere but in magazines or on TV.

Of course, I did get a customer service dude once who was sort of hard to understand. When I asked where he was located, he said Miami. 'Nuff said.

[XanaDUer]

5. ME.

Big time.

[Ivory_Tower]

6. I almost started a thread on this a couple days ago

I had a billing question with AT&T long distance -- my long distance service was locked (with no warning) even though the bill was paid. After being kept on hold for the standard 10+ minutes I got a customer support service person with a heavy Indian accent, so I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that it was an outsourced contract. There was nothing she could do; all she could do was say my service would be restored in 24 hours.

I'm not sure if I was very angry about the service work going to India (realizing the loss of jobs in the states had an impact on my outlook, I'm sure, but I also realize that the Indian workers aren't really to blame) -- I was angrier that my long distance had been cut with no notice. But I was mostly ticked off because even though I called about a billing dispute, she ended the call by trying to get me to switch my LOCAL service to AT&T. ("Our records indicate that you do not have AT&T as your local service provider. Would you like to switch your local service to AT&T now?") Yup, my billing dispute turned into a sales call that I had to dial! Argh....

I might have to consider a different long distance carrier.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Lucked out

I was able to get my local lending co-op to lend me enough dough to pay off my credit cards. And I only used pre-paid calling cards when I phone long distance.

Here's a thought-when you get someone who has an accent on the phone, ask if they are calling from Delhi or Bombay. End the conversation with "Namaste" or "Salaam Alaikum" and listen for their response. Could be rather telling, as they don't expect questions like that.

[Ivory_Tower]

10. It really wasn't a big deal for the most part

The bill was paid, and I didn't cost me anything to get it straightened out (except for the time spent on the phone call). But the sales pitch at the end of the call was really annoying.

Actually, I have a national plan on my cell phone (I've been travelling a bit recently for work), so I tend to use that for my long distance calls anyway.

Interesting idea about how to end the call -- I'll have to remember that. I had read a story a year or so ago about U.S. companies that had outsourced support desks to India -- they were training their employees how speak with a Midwestern accent, so callers would feel more "comfortable" (and I suppose less inclined to think that the companies were outsourcing their jobs).

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. Or you could respond with the expression.....

HOLY COW!! :evilgrin:

[Atlant]

18. Try asking about "Bangalore" -- lots of the tech stuff is there. (NT)

[jus_the_facts]

9. I hear ya loud and clear.....can't understand a thing THEY say....

....though....been getting solicitations from them and it's aggravating enough to get solicited but when you can't understand what they're even saying....even more so!! :grr:

[Catshrink]

21. NO kidding... and they can't understand me.

so I end up repeating and repeating.... It gets so damn frustrating!

[mitchum]

24. This is what I do (I can't understand them and they can't understand me)

I have been writing letters to the corporations about this. I urge EVERYONE to do the same. Sometimes you can use xenophobia for good purposes

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. It's hard to believe that Indian call centers are cheaper than.....

....many companies' previous cheap labor source, Prison call centers.

Maybe there were too many complaints about convicts having access to sensitive info (credit cards, SS numbers, etc)

[Iris]

16. you know what upsets me?

I have a co-worker who legally immigrated here from India so that her 2 daughters could have a chance to be educated. Her husband has been laid off because his job has been outsourced back to India.

[Dookus]

17. No, it doesn't piss me off.

For a few reasons.

One, is I think it's good that Indians get decent jobs, too. I'm not an America-first when it comes to this issue.

Second, I've worked in Silicon Valley for 20 years, in both product development and Customer Support. 20 years ago, companies tended to maintain their own on-site support departments. This is very expensive. The next trend was to move them out of expensive Silicon Valley, to places like Austin and Salt Lake City. Then, the next step was Canada (Toronto is a huge call center). Now the next step is India. It's been going on for a long time. Nobody complained about Canada, but India seems to upset people.

The reason this is done is cost. Customer Support is an EXTREMELY expensive operation, and in the startup companies I've worked for, can make the difference between failure and survival of the company. I'm not exaggerating. In the cut-throat consumer tech business, margins can be very very low. ALL businesses have to find ways to provide needed support, but in a way that doesn't bankrupt the company.

I don't see it NECESSARILY as large, greedy corporations trying to expand their already-huge profits. My perspective is more towards seeing it as smaller companies, or even large companies, trying to remain competetive.

Yes, it sucks for an American who lost a job. It's great for an Indian who got a job, though.

[mitchum]

27. jobs is the only area where I'm an America-firster...

I feel no great shameful need to give up American jobs to the people of India. Hey, the Brits created that misery over there...

[Dookus]

28. Well...

how do we prevent it? Make it illegal for companies to contract overseas? Should we step back 20 years and require all manufacturing by American companies be done in America, by Americans? Does it mean they can't buy components that are manufactured overseas?

And then, since the American made products will be much more expensive than similar products made by foreign companies, we'll have to put protective trade tariffs on those foreign-made items. Then we have to deal with the inevitable gray market/black market for the products that 40% cheaper in the rest of the world than in the US....... and on and on and on...

[mitchum]

31. Sounds like a great idea to me

[Dookus]

32. really expensive products...

eternal trade wars.... economic isolation. That sounds good?

[mitchum]

34. Since you're really coming off like an apologist (for corporate greed)

perhaps you can explain how this is a good thing for the American worker?

[Dookus]

35. I thought...

I explained rather clearly, above, my perspective and experience on this issue. There's no need to call me an apologist for anything.

Why don't you explain, without the insults, why you think it would be productive to enforce a rule that all American companies are forbidden to use foreign contractors. Do you really think this would, in the long run, improve our economy? the world's economy? Our international standing?

I have already stated that I don't believe "what's good for the American worker" should be the main goal of all our economic policies. I think that's shortsighted. Furthermore, isolating ourselves economically would NOT, in the long term, be good for the American worker.

As a progressive, I'm concerned about ALL the workers of the world. I think it's great that Singapore has been able to build the economy it has, based largely on contract manufacturing. I think it's great that India is getting good, decent-paying jobs from the world economy. I hope lots more developing nations get some of these jobs. I don't believe in enforcing American economic superiority anymore than I believe in enforcing American military superiority.

[latebloomer]

37. You know, I'm not exactly sure how to deal with this mess

that GREED has created. All I know is, it's hardly a good thing when American jobs get exported to Mexican sweatshop labor, and then the company decides they're paying Mexican workers too much, so now they'll put them out of work and use near-slave-labor in China or Pakistan.

The people who own these corporations are already obscenely wealthy. But it's never enough, is it???

[Dookus]

38. but that's not the issue being discussed.

this discussion is about high-tech jobs, which generally are safe, well-paying and appreciated, going to developing countries.

I think that's a good thing. And it's not always greed. The companies I've worked for have generally been small tech startups that struggled to survive.

[latebloomer]

40. I'm not just talking about high-tech

Call center jobs aren't high tech. I'm disgusted with the whole pattern that's been going on for many years now, starting with manufacturing.

You keep talking about small start-up companies, but the companies I am talking about are huge and controlled by a few obscenely wealthy people who do not give a flying fuck about anyone, be it fellow countryman or sweatshop laborer.

[Dookus]

41. well...

YOU mentioned Mexican sweatshops.

I don't think Indian call centers are comparable.

[latebloomer]

42. I also fail to see

how it's a good thing that many thousands of American computer professionals are now running out of unemployment .benefits. Why should American companies be helping raise the standard of living in India while ours goes to hell in a handbasket?

[Dookus]

43. well...

as an american tech worker who's been out of work for 9 months, I'm familiar with the issue.

But I don't think the solution is to force companies to keep all their operations in the US. No doubt it's an adjustment that we need to deal with, but I don't think the solution is higher prices, trade wars, the collapse of struggling companies and economic isolation.

Lots of Americans work for foreign corporations, too. If other nations adopted your view, those Americans would be thrown out of work.

We live in a global market now. We have to adapt.

[corarose]

77. Small companies can't afford to outsource to another country

Only large companies can afford to outsource our jobs and we both know that but someone else doesn't.

[ikojo]

39. Tommy Hilfiger, Polo, Nike and most name brand

designer clothes are made in sweatshops where people are paid pennies per hour. Yet the cost of those things are still outrageous, unless one buys them on sale.

Just because something is done outside the US does not mean that product will be less expensive when purchased by Americans.

I just have a feeling that corporate America really does not care about Americans. There are less than 300 million people in the US. India and China combined have at least 2 BILLION people. That is 2 BILLION CONSUMERS. If by outsourcing services previously done in the US it raises the purchasing power of the average Indian or Chinese then it is a win-win situation for corporate America. They can encourage them to buy a car for every driver in those countries and make a boat load of money. Much more than what would be made here just based upon the number of potential consumers.

Just my take. They get lower wages and encourage a consumer driven culture among 2 billion people.

[Dookus]

47. again...

this discussion is NOT about clothing manufacturing in third-world sweatshops. It's about tech jobs in India. We can expand the discussion to those other issues, but I'm afraid it would get unmanageable.

And I'm not defending those practices. I'm defending using educated, relatively well-paid adult workers in safe environments in developing nations.

[latebloomer]

48. well, I started this thread!

And I'm pissed about all of it!!

And yes, damn right it's unmanageable!!

[Dookus]

49. there's nothing wrong with being pissed.

But I don't think the solution is as simple as some people believe. On the surface, it sounds nice to say we'll require US corporations to hire US workers. But if every other nation made the same call, a lot of American workers would lose THEIR jobs.

Then... we'd have to deal with trade wars as a result. Try to buy a television that was made in America. If you could find one, it would cost you a fortune.

it's funny... job protectionism used to be a rather conservative ideal when I was younger. Pure Pat Buchanan. We've been losing "american" jobs (I don't believe jobs have any inherent nationality) for a long time. It's painful, no doubt. But I also feel it's inevitable if we want to be part of a global marketplace. We can shut ourselves off from the outside world, but I don't think it's in our best interests in the long run.

[latebloomer]

50. I need to educate myself more on this subject

But I do know that, partly as a result of these changes, the US middle class is disappearing and I fear for the future of my kids.

[luckyluke]

52. WTF is an "American job"?

"I feel no great shameful need to give up American jobs to the people of India."

What is an "American job"? A job is a job. All these companies are MNCs anyway. You feel you deserve a job more because you are an American?

Let me reverse what you said: I feel no great need to give up Indian jobs to the people of America.

-ll

[amazona]

19. AmEx is no good for customer service -- cancel them

They lost me as a customer a decade ago when, get this, I received a bill asking me to pay for purchases from a store in New Jersey, signed by someone I didn't know, billed to an Optima card -- I did not even have an Optima card.

I sent them a letter explaining that I hadn't been to New Jersey in decades and that the bill should be sent to the Optima account number, which probably belonged to the lady who had signed for the receipt on the copy of the signed credit card slip they had sent me.

After going a few rounds, they finally sent me a letter saying they would no longer bill me for the purchase "Because I was a long time customer." In other words, no one had read my letter, no one had understood that I had not made this charge, and that it should have never been placed on my AmEx account. They thought I was lying and complaining to get out of a $40 charge.

I had no choice but to cancel my account that day. I could have never trusted them again. I doubt they were doing customer service in India back then -- in fact, as if I recall correctly, customer service was in Florida -- but the staff was obviously incapable of correcting THEIR mistake. I would not risk having another person's charges added to my bill a second time.

[Catshrink]

22. The article gives job numbers

"According the the National Association of Software and Services Companies, the Indian business-process outsourcing sector has seen a four-fold increase in employment from 25,000 in 1999 to 106,000 in 2002."

So, where did those 81,000 jobs come from? The good old USA. We've exported 81,000 jobs (at least) to India.

[Dookus]

23. no...

many of those jobs were previously held by Canadians.

[GregW]

25. Do you also get PISSED re customer service in OKLAHOMA

You know, all those greedy US companies who took away jobs from Californians and New Yorkers and outsourced them to cheaper locales like Oklahoma?

Hmmm???

[AntiCoup2K4]

26. Could be worse... they could outsource them to Kentucky.

I can understand Oklahoma accents most of the time, but there's parts of Kentucky where the accent is so thick, you might as well be calling India.

[Don_G]

30. Not Too Many Parts

We don't exactly have many Customer Service Centers built in the coal mines of extreme eastern Kentucky.

[VelmaD]

29. Don't wanta go into too much detail...

about my finances but I had an horrific experience recently with Mastercard customer service and a gentleman with a pronounced Indian accent.

I had big, expensive car trouble and had to skip a payment. When I called to talk about setting up payment options to get caught up the guy I talked to nearly drove me to homicidal rage.

He started spewing numbers at me rapid-fire. I think it was an intentional attempt to confuse the hell outta me. I had to tell him repeatedly to slow down and finally ended up yelling at him to shut up for a second.

I explained to him (and I guess now to y'all)...I'm am internal auditor by profession. Math and numbers are my stock in trade. There was absolutely no reason for me to be confused about what he was talking about. I can only come to the conclusion that one of two possibilities was occuring - either he didn't know what the hell he was talking about and was trying to hide that fact or he was trying to confuse me to get more money out of me than was strictly necessary.

Anyway, I forced him to boot me up the ladder til I talked to someone who seemed to have a clue and I suggest that course of action any time you feel the slightest bit uncomfortable with someone in any customer service department.

DV

[Ivory_Tower]

33. On the plus side

I remember seeing an article a while back about an unintended side effect of outsourcing all this tech work to India -- remember all the nuclear tension between Pakistan and India? Well, the major corporations that have now made a BIG investment in an Indian workforce do NOT want to see that investment go up in a mushroom cloud. Those companies apparently put a lot of pressure on all parties involved to lower the heat on the nuke threat.

Don't know if I can find the link, I think someone emailed it to me a long time ago.

[CanuckAmok]

44. There was a CBC news story a few months ago.....

...about Indian telecentre operators. Truly fascinating. They interviewed some of them. Obviously, they have to have excellent English communication skills, but some go one further and perfect regional dialects. One fella they interviewed had a perfect Texas drawl, and worked for a performance auto parts company, who's customers are typically Southern Gearhead types. He is one of the most sought-after operators in India, because his accent is so disarming to American customers. He's a minor celebrity due to his talents. Another had a perfect New England accent, and worked for a preppy mailorder clothing firm (I assume it was LL Bean or Land's End--they didn't identify any companies by name).

The Telecentre operators live like kings in India--it's one of the highest paying careers there are. It's so lucrative that many Indo-Canadian young adults are moving to India just to work in the call centres!

[SoCalDem]

80. I talked to "Judy" at Dell support..

She was helpful enough, and a little while into the conversation, I asked her what her real name was, since I doubted that there were many women in India named "Judy"..:)

I actually prefer them to the PHONE ROBOT that CALLS MY HOUSE, and when I amswer, it tells me to hold on :grr:

[LynneSin]

45. Honey, even the Republican party is using India for fundraising

They're going to India for their phone fundraiser.

You'd think with all the jobs they've cost us that they could at least hire some folks in America to help them raise money

[latebloomer]

46. Well, they better come up with some great actors

who've perfected American regional dialects!

Can't see that going over too well, otherwise!

[Ilsa]

51. On Bill Moyers' NOW,

when they did the program on outsourcing, they showed how foreign workers were being trained to speak English with virtually NO accent at all. Sounds like they are from Chicago.

My problem with the outsourcing is that it covers so many fields, not just customer service, but almost anything done at a computer or telephone behind a desk, such as engineering, software development, etc. I can't help but wonder what the 9% unemployed are supposed to go retrain for. Shit, they've already invested a ton of money in being educated for the jobs they had, and now Bush wants them to go back to community college? To do what? Be a nurses' aide? Welder?It's not enough to have an engineering degree and MBA, but if you don't have it from the most prestigious university, you aren't in the running for the good jobs?

My uncle is a civil engineer. Should he go back to being a surveyor just so the company can add another dime to the bottom line?

[luckyluke]

53. You're a bigot...

...and sadly you're not the only one on this forum.

Let me break it down for you. Americans don't have a *right* to a job any more than Indians do. Indians take these jobs to fill their stomachs, unlike Americans who take them so they can have a second (or third!) car. Have you ever seen a typical Indian household? These people don't get two square meals a day! Unemployment is still much higher there than it is here. There is no welfare system either.

Your husband may be unemployed, but it doesn't sound like you're starving. Millions of Indians are.

I don't know or care about corporate greed - all I know is outsourcing helps people who are worse off than I am.

-ll

[CanuckAmok]

54. It's a tragedy that...

the end result of this type of globalization is this;

a small handful of Indians (or other Thirld World people) benefit from this sort of wealth distribution, but at the expense of workers elsewhere. Bigotry and racism aside, the bottom line is that less money is spent on labour, while profits soar. Instead of elevating the standard of living for working people throughout the world, this type of outsourcing lowers it, and encourages an impossibly large pool of workers willing and able to work for a fraction of what North Americans would. The corporations which can afford to outsource globally are the very same ones who can afford to pay fair union wages, but now they don't have to. Soon we'll be cutting our labour expectations just to compete, and big business' profits will swell.

[luckyluke]

55. You are mistaken

"a small handful of Indians (or other Thirld World people) benefit from this sort of wealth distribution"

Uh, Indians alone number about a billion. It is Americans who are a small handful (yet paradoxically have the most wealth in the world).

"Instead of elevating the standard of living for working people throughout the world, this type of outsourcing lowers it"

No. It lowers *your* standard of living. It raises the average Indian's standard of living. Even then, you will have a better standard of living than the average Indian.

-ll

[CanuckAmok]

61. No, YOU are mistaken...

what I clearly stated is that it elevates a small handful of the Indian population's standard of living.

It does noting for the standard of living for the "average Indian", who don't have access to the smattering of jobs which are thrown to the lucky few who land them (generally speaking, the priviledged, English-speaking Brahmin and Ksatriyas, aka the Ruling Class)

I'm very familiar with conditions in India, thank you, having lived there for a period in my teens.

and then you said..."No. It lowers *your* standard of living. It raises the average Indian's standard of living"

There's that "average Indian" again...

If you think that the objective of corporate globalization isn't to destroy the union and fair wage infrastructure of the global labour pool, you're very naive. Sure, "Joe Indian" might see a short-term improvment in his standard of living, he'll be abandoned as soon as someone cheaper comes along (likely after he has been co-opted into good ol' American consumer debt cycles).

I'm against the hiring of labour at sub-human rates. This type of outsourcing is the tip of the iceberg.

So, will you feel better when the playing field is levelled so Joe Buffalo Steelworker is earning the same money as his Indian counterpart, or would you prefer a united international labour force which would elevate the Indian's standard of living to that of his Buffalonian cousin's?

Lord knows the big business can afford it, they just choose not to. Why would you possibly think that's a positive step for anyone?

But maybe you'd just like to paint ME with a name, too...

[luckyluke]

66. Yes and no

"It does noting for the standard of living for the "average Indian", who don't have access to the smattering of jobs which are thrown to the lucky few who land them (generally speaking, the priviledged, English-speaking Brahmin and Ksatriyas, aka the Ruling Class)"

OK, that is true to an extent.

"would you prefer ... elevate the Indian's standard of living to that of his Buffalonian cousin's?"

That's not going to happen - you know why? The earth cannot sustain 6 billion people consuming as much as Americans do. If you want to level the standard of living worldwide, that global level is going to have to be lower than the level Americans currently live at. It is not *possible* for 6 billion people to drive SUVs, flush gallons of water down the drain, eat thousands of calories a meal etc.

If the economic downturn means fat Americans have to tighten their belts, I'm OK with that. It's about frickin' time.

-ll

[CanuckAmok]

72. Okay, you first.

Give up your PC and your other luxuries, or get off the pot.

You're just as guilty as the rest of us, and meticulously separating your plastics or insisting on organic popcorn doesn't actually do anything for this planet.

This brand of pious simplification gets under my skin. Of course the earth can't substain this kind of consumption. Selling the values of consumerism to the Third World in the form of increased buying power isn't going to solve anything.

Are you talking about consumerism, or are you talking about employment standards?

Because the top 100 global corporations CAN afford to pay their global employees the same reasonable wage, from Boston to Burundi. They just don't, because there's always some poor soul somewhere who will do for two bucks a month what you'll do for twenty per hour. Throwing an occasional bone to India or wherever doesn't do anything to change the cycle of greed which the corporations/media encourage.

My belief? The workers control the means of production. I believe all business, big or small, should be required to pay a certain percentage of their profits to their employees. No tax shelters, no corporate welfare. No exploiting (and, yes, it IS exploitation paying someone $0.02 for each pair of Reeboks they sew, even if that makes them the wealthiest peasant in town) Third World workers with substandard wages, to break the backs of Unions here.

[luckyluke]

79. The global standard fallacy

Nobody would employ people in Burundi if you had to pay them the same as you did in Boston.

2 cents would be about 1 rupee. So yeah, that is not a very high wage. However, reflect that people would not be working for Reebok if they had a better alternative available. A rupee is better than nothing - five rupees a day would keep you from starving.

Perhaps we differ on what exploitation is. My belief is that it's only exploitation if someone's holding a gun to your head. If someone's offering you an employment opportunity that you can take or leave, that's not exploitation. To a starving third-worlder, anti-sweatshop activists are infinitely more dangerous than are Reebok or Nike.

-ll

[CanuckAmok]

85. Okay, so...

"My belief is that it's only exploitation if someone's holding a gun to your head..."

...so it's not exploitive for TWA to employ prisoners, or for the wealthiest business in the world, WalMart, to wipe out every business in a town and give minimum wage jobs to the small-business owners they displaced?

We (and our fellow humans in the Third World) should be happy that we're not being paid in relation to the profits we help generate?

Sure, let's accept the completely deregulated labour pool of the rest of the world. Let's thank our masters for offering us such plums, carefully extracted from their ever shrinking profit margins.

Enjoy working at Starbucks :eyes: .

[Pert_UK]

68. I disagree on a number of points.....

1. It doesn't automatically make you a bigot if you say you'd like to keep jobs within your own country. I suggest you think twice before using such emotive language.

2. It doesn't necessarily help the "average" Indian (whoever that is) escape "starvation". In order to work in a US/UK-facing call centre you need to be a university graduate. There is such competition for these jobs & language / technical standards are set so high by the parent company, that the outsourcer is able to staff call centres using university graduates. I fail to see how this creates work for the impoverished, undereducated members of Indian society about whom you seem to care so much. Moreover, I don't really see how call centre work is a particularly fulfilling / contributing role for a uni graduate. Basically, we're taking some of the best Indian minds and turning them into phone monkeys, arguably depriving the Indian economy of their skills.

3. This situation is in danger of becoming a vicious circle that helps nobody. If too many US jobs go to India then you end up with higher US unemployment, lower consumer confidence and less money being spent and less services being used. If less services are used then less work goes to India and they end up closing call centres themselves.

4. I'm not entirely convinced that India should move its economy into the "service" industry and away from manufacturing.........it's quite dangerous when a relatively unstable economy starts relying on intangible industries like telephone servicing, rather than import/export.

5. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a US website, and while I applaud efforts towards greater global harmony and co-operation, I don't think that the Dems are going to win many votes if you actively promote the transfer of work out of the US and to India.

[luckyluke]

69. You're correct...

...but speaking of emotive language, may I quote the original poster: "Who else gets PISSED re customer service in INDIA??"

But your points are well-made and hard to argue with.

-ll

[Pert_UK]

86. Wow! Thanks....

I often frequent the Gun Dungeon here and am not used to people acknowledging a valid point or being polite.

Thank you!

I take your point about the highlighting of INDIA, but to be honest I regarded it as being a specific reference to highlight the more general idea of jobs going abroad.

BTW - welcome to DU!

P.

[Dookus]

70. no one denies the problems

What is your solution?

Do you t hink companies should only be allowed to hire employees that reside in their own nation? How then will you address all the problems that arise as a result of that?

I'll tell you from my OWN history - most "American" brand consumer electronics would NEVER have been made given those conditions. People simply will not pay the prices necessary to buy them, and the companies would go out of business, throwing more people out of work.

[CanuckAmok]

76. Sidebar:

Grain of salt time...

A few years ago, I read an article in a Canadian Business magazine, with a breakdown of the cost of building a 28" TV within North America, including unionised parts manufacture, shipping, etc...

what presently cost $500 would cost over $4000.

[Dookus]

81. well

that example sounds a bit extreme, but it's possible.

And it's the point I'm trying to make. We CAN legally ensure that we create such jobs, but Americans WILL NOT pay $4,000 for a $500 TV. Neither will the rest of the world. So those people employed at the empty USATV factory will be out of work anyway.

[Pert_UK]

83. I'm better at finding fault than offering solutions, but......

it strikes me that outsourcing is often grabbed as a first-resort, short-term cost reduction measure.

One of the many problems is that you end up relying on an external company with a profit motive, and no real interest in either your business or its products. You tie yourself into a great 5-year deal and save a $100m.......but if it doesn't work, service deteriorates or you decide you want to regain control of your call centres, it costs you 3 times that much to bring it back in-house.....and you haven't got the staff or skills there any more.

Basically, with outsourcing if you're not careful you lose control of a strategic asset of the company forever. The outsourcer has you over a barrel when it comes to renegotiating the next contract.

I'm not saying that we should "ban" outsourcing (in fact, I've worked in this area and hope to return in the next year), I'm just saying that it doesn't actually necessarily benefit the customers, company, country, redundant workers or necessarily the ones hired abroad. After all, how does it help India if its graduates all end up answering phonecalls from the US, working in conditions that might be illegal in the US itself?

Nobody says that Far East sweatshops are a great idea, providing employment for the starving children....OK, it's not the same league, but it can still be exploitation.

[cprise]

98. May I suggest a solution

No more labor shell-games. Put caps on the percentage of workers that can be outsourced by corporations; make US corporations answerable to US citizens.

Eliminate the current 'free trade' structure. Ensuring corporate access to labor markets without offering any assurances to laborers (such as the ability to organize) is just a veiled form of class warfare. International trade should not be used as a tool for the wealthy to become hyper-rich and cut themselves off completely from their countrymen.

We need an international development structure that recognizes the need for corporations and their financial backers to remain answerable to the people they live and work with. What's more, governments must be called on to create and nuture regional industries, because investment and entrepeneurial leadership need to be a part of the countries where most of their labor comes from.

The average Japanese worker was able to get in on the ground-floor with their regional corporations and keep them integrated with their community; The result was a massive increase in living standards in Japan, and many valuable and unique approaches to industry that the rest of the world is still learning from. All this because of "evil protectionism". The current outsourcing trend short-circuits regional development, and India and others may be headed in the wrong direction.

[latebloomer]

99. Thank you!

Good ideas! US companies SHOULD have some responsibility to their citizens!

[CanuckAmok]

73. Well stated, as usual, Pert...

...I wish I was as eloquent.

[Pert_UK]

84. Cheers chap.........and BTW - I'm a qualified 4-wheeler now!

I'm working in a training company in a quarry and they let me do their "Operate Light 4WD Vehicle" course the other day, in a Landcruiser. I'm LOVING IT! Now I can take my van on the beach without worrying that I'll screw it up!

P.

[CanuckAmok]

87. Mmmm... Land Cruiser...

I drove one in the UN-- over half a million KMs (not all with me at the wheel!), and solid as a rock. Any vehicle which can handle 500000Kms of Canadian soldier treatment is a good mount, indeed!

[Dookus]

56. I dunno....

in MY industry (tech), profits are NOT soaring. A handful of companies are doing well but a whole lot are struggling. They're trying to survive. If you insist they can't hire off-shore workers for anything, they simply will go under, consolidating the stranglehold of a few huge conglomerates.

[RobinA]

97. For Myself,

my beef isn't the nationality, it's that the people, whoever they may be, aren't fit to be emplyed as phone reps, because they don't speak or understand English. I'd have the same complaint if the people were based in Nebraska if I couldn't understand them on the phone.

[corarose]

57. The lady asked me what state Chicago was in at AT&T's CS Dept.

I repeated the name Chicago and she asked me again what State that I was in. I knew immediately that OUR jobs had been outsourced to another country.

If they don't know where the hell our large cities are located at then how they hell are they going to do their job correctly.

[Dookus]

58. a simple matter of training....

I think it's racist to think that Indians are incapable of providing quality support.

I used to train our support people. We had some in the US, a lot in Canada, a few in Europe. All of them, when properly trained, can do a good job.

The Canadian support people were mostly non-native Canadians. Many Indians, Arabs, Nepalese and Tibetans. A few Africans. All were capable of doing the job when properly trained.

Most of the people you've spoken to in Customer Support over the last few years were probably not located in the US. You wouldn't notice it unless they had an accent you had difficulty with, or if they didn't know something "obvious" to an American (e.g., which state Chicago is in).

It's not the fault of the person you called. It's the fault of the people training him/her.

[corarose]

60. I didn't mention India and I am not sure that's where she was at

She sounded American to me but I could tell that she wasn't in the USA because I had to repeat Illinois several times.

[corarose]

63. DID I MENTION INDIA?????

I AM NOT THE ORIGINAL POSTER AND I DIDN'T MENTION INDIA.

BTW If someone from another country is going to answer the phone and book apts. for reps to come out and install cable and INTERNET service then they should know about the large cities in the USA and where they are located at.

[Dookus]

64. OK, OK...

you didn't mention India. I read your first reply and understood.

The point I was trying to make is: a foreign national who is handling your phone call is perfectly capable of doing a good job, when properly trained, regardless of his/her nationality.


Plus, I'll bet a decent percentage of Americans don't know what state Chicago is in. I've heard some very humorous stories of travel agents dealing with requests to go to New Mexico. It seems a lot of people have no idea it's in the US.

[luckyluke]

59. WTF do you mean YOUR jobs?

Do the jobs have your names written on them? Do the jobs belong to you? Are Indians not human beings?

:wtf:

-ll

[corarose]

62. YES IT IS OUR GD JOBS GOING TO OTHER COUNTRIES

It we pay the FUCKING company for OUR service in the USA then OUR jobs which are scarce here should stay in OUR country!

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT INDIA OR ANY-OTHER COUNTRY BUT IF I PAY FOR MY GD CABLE AND THE COMPANY INSTALLS IT IN CHICAGO AND THERE MAIN OFFICE IS LOCATED IN CHICAGO THEN THE GD CUSTOMER SERVICE DEPT. SHOULD BE LOCATED SOMEWHERE IN THE USA.

Who the HELL said that I am originally from the USA? I have lived in England and why don't you ask the British about THEIR JOBS and how they were OUTSOURCED to the point of no return. It's what you call TWO class system the POOR and the RICH and nothing in between.

[luckyluke]

65. Well...

...that's very patriotic and all, but I don't quite see the logic. Isolationism is not going to boost the US economy, no matter what you may think.

-ll

[corarose]

75. I guess outsourcing middle class jobs will boost the economy right?

They are middle class jobs and outsourcing them does not do our country any good.
Let me guess the person that looses their job because their job is going to someone in another country should go and work at KFC or Walmart right?

[Dookus]

78. middle-class jobs

have been leaving the country for decades now. It's not a new phenomenon. The loss of manufacturing jobs was difficult to cope with, too.

The question I keep asking, though, is how do we ADDRESS the problem? People here keep saying we should keep American jobs in the US, but nobody's explained HOW to deal with the resulting problems: trade wars, increased international protectionism, higher prices, and the resulting job loss that THOSE problems cause.

[Dookus]

67. No need to yell...

So if you have a question about your Phillips DVD player, you should have to call the Netherlands, right? Or your Honda breaks down? We'll ship it back to Japan to fix it, at your cost. Is that OK?

Seriously... economic isolation may save a few jobs in the short term, but it would so seriously destroy our economy and our standing in the world, that the long-term outcome would be a helluva lot worse than anything we see today.

[corarose]

71. I am talking about Cable and other Utilities

They should be here yes right here in the USA. We pay them to install them here and their main offices are suppose to be here and they should hire people from the area.

I don't care about IKEA hiring people from Sweden or Sony hiring people from Japan to answer phones and If it helps people in India then give them some jobs also but we have people out of work here.

When it comes to our utilities they should have to keep their CSR Dept's right here in the USA.
Say you have an emergency and they need to come out and fix it right away but the person on the other end don't know where you are located at and she or he can't get someone out. Say it's the gas company and you have a leak and they don't know where you are at and they put another State down like CA because that's where they think that Chicago is located at. That is a major problem isn't it?

We have enough people out of work here and we need to take care of our people first. If that means investors make a few less buck then so be it.


When did they take prisoners jobs away from them. I thought that people in prison was answering CSR Dept. lines.

[Dookus]

74. Yes...

there are people out of work all around the world. I'm one of them.

The problem with "taking care of our people first" is that the only way to do it is create protectionist policies that lead to further trade wars with other countries.

Furthermore, I don't believe it's "progressive" to say Americans deserve jobs more than anybody else.

I've also explained carefully how a lot of companies are NOT just squeezing extra profits by out-sourcing. They're trying to survive.

I've worked in the tech industry for 20 years. Some of the companies I've worked for are still around, but have NEVER shown a profit. If they were required to build and support their products entirely in the USA, these companies would've been gone long ago. In fact, they wouldn't have even gotten funding in the first place, because the business model would be untenable.

[corarose]

82. Can you name one foreign country that outsources its jobs to the USA?

They started by taking factory workers jobs away from them back in the 80's then they took the tech jobs away and now they are taking CSR Dept's. away from the USA.
What next? Will another country dig graves for us?

[CanuckAmok]

88. Canada (Well, you asked ;) ) n/t

[Dookus]

89. The point has been made here many many times.....

that foreign nationals are now doing jobs many Americans once did. I don't dispute that. Nobody does. No need to keep repeating it.

The issue is what to DO about it. I keep posting questions, and nobody answers them.

Will YOU pay $4,000 for a television set that sells for $500 in Canada just so you can know an American union worker made it? Will enough Americans pay that to keep that worker employed? I don't think so.

[CanuckAmok]

90. To varying degrees, yes...

I'm a Union member, and I make the effort to buy Union/local whenever I can. Often it's not only too expensive, it can't be found at all. But I do try, and encourage my friends to at least make an effort.

[Dookus]

91. The

attempt or desire to "look for the union label" is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about sustaining an isolated economy in which enough people will pay $4,000 for a small TV in order to keep an American television factory worker employed.

I don't think that would happen. I think those workers would be out of a job ANYWAY. The attempt to keep the job in the US would fail, and furthermore, nobody ELSE would get that job, and we'd make enemies around the world.

[corarose]

92. Can you name one foreign country that outsources its jobs to the USA?

I am not talking about Canada either.

[Dookus]

93. I don't know the stats at all....

but I do know that many foreign countries hire US corporations to do, say large construction projects (ala Bechtel and Halliburton).

But I fail to see what any of that has to do with the questions I keep asking here.

HOW do we sustain an isolated economy such that people remain employed, even when there's nobody to buy the results of their labor?

[JackDragna]

94. Some solutions..

If a corporation that established itself in the United States goes overseas to outsource jobs or build factories, then either it or its goods should be heavily taxed. People sometimes miss that many corporate giants prospered from things the people spend loads of tax money on, like the development of the modern highway system. To say that these corporations now don't owe America anything is to ignore the huge investment America made in them.

The other thing that needs to happen is the establishment of an international minimum wage. Nobody should be allowed to go overseas and hire workers willing to work for chicken feed. Corporate profits, globally, have never been higher. Corporations can afford to pay a self-sufficient labor force enough that the workers would lead productive lives in any nation on earth.

There is, however, a larger issue that looms beyond all this, as in many issues. The population of earth keeps growing. The number of jobs relatively unskilled people can do, of which the vast majority are a part, shrinks continuously. The wealthy nations of the world hoard capital and natural resources. What will eventually happen is that there will come a time when society will need to provide a global welfare system for its populace, mostly by taking the abundance away from western society. The only thing that can stop that from becoming a necessity is a massive decline in the population. I've always humans have an unconscious connection with their surroundings and, given recent events, I have a disturbing feeling that the world feels the labor/resource crunch and is looking for ways to do in some of its members.

[corarose]

95. You speak the truth!

:kick:

[latebloomer]

100. Thank you for your constructive ideas!

I needed the help!