Stevie Wonder: Eminem "succeeded on the backs of people of color"

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

Stevie's not pleased: Look out, Eminem. Stevie Wonder is "really disappointed" in you for making fun of Michael Jackson in the video for your song "Just Lose It." "Kicking someone when he's down is not a good thing," Wonder tells Billboard magazine. "I have much respect for his work, though I don't think he's as good as (late rapper) Tupac. But I was disappointed that he would let himself go to such a level ... He has succeeded on the backs of people predominantly in that lower pay bracket, people of color. So for him to come out like that is bull----." (Reuters)

http://www.salon.com/ent/col/fix/2004/12/06/mon/

[Bucky]

1. Stevie hates racist homophobes who kick child molester when they're down

I don't know who to make fun of first.

[mark414]

3. since when is eminem racist?

[livinbella]

37. He's down with the hommies!

He is definitely anti-gay - but racist, I doubt it.
And he is always very thankful to the people who came before him,
eventhough they all suck.

[mark414]

42. "even though they all suck"

you don't listen to much hip hop do you?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

153. He actually isn't anti gay.

He makes fun of people who are anti gay. He even says that if he were serious about half the stuff he raps about he wouldn't be fit to raise his daughter.
Duckie

[livinbella]

4. Make fun of somebody!

We need some entertaining banter here

[Bucky]

26. Ok, I'm make fun of self serving millionaires who spout the obvious

Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

[donheld]

79. "Make fun of somebody!"

Let's start making fun of you

[donheld]

59. Have you proof

that michael is a child molester?

[livinbella]

2. Eminem is the ONLY rapper who does not totally suck

Shut up Stevie Wonderbread!

[mark414]

7. hmm gonna have to disagree with that...

maybe mainstream (but that's throwing outkast in there...)

but mos def? kweli? ghostface? dizzee rascal? mf doom? trife?

nas' new album is pretty good too.

methinks you don't listen to much hip hop, otherwise you wouldn't say something like that...

[AlCzervik]

9. No kidding, What about Jay-z? He sucks? don't think so

[sniffa]

13. he did suck back in earLy 90's

horribLe actuaLLy, but it was a different time.

[Seabiscuit]

137. People could argue forever about which rap singer sucks

... because they ALL suck. Rap sucks. Period.

Especially Enemaman.

Kudos to Stevie Wonder.

[mark414]

161. dude ur an asshole

[mark414]

17. he's "retired"

[Phillycat]

14. Stevie Wonder could shit in a CD case and it would be better than

one second of anything Eminem could ever come up with if you gave him his entire life to think of it.

Stevie Wonder is a fucking genius. Eminem is a marginally talented rapper (his flow is good) who happens to be a sexist homophobe and can't think of enough material so he has to lampoon people who've been reduced to caricature long ago.

I don't agree with Stevie here, but don't fuck with him.

[Richardo]

115. Nicely put, janesez!

I'd buy that Stevie Wonder CD, too. :D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. The Sexism And Homophobia Is Tongue In Cheek...

"Marginally talented rapper"....


His last three cds , ENCORE,The Marshall Mathers LP, and the Eminem Show have received great reviews...



Show me the name of one person who is knowledgeable of the genre who thinks Eminem is a "marginally talented rapper" and I'll revisit my opinion...


Eminem dissed Michael Jackson... He didn't diss Stevie...

[Phillycat]

121. I am a person who is extremely knowledgable about hip hop.

So you can go right ahead and stop being so patronizing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. I Was Speaking The Truth....

Ask Dre, Snoop Dog, 50 Cent if Eminem is a marginally talented rapper....

[Phillycat]

124. 50 Cent? Are you joking?

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, we don't need to continue this conversation. I know exactly where you're at.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

127. Who's Patrononizing Who?

Let's ask Dre and Snoop Dog if 50 Cent is a marginally talented rapper?

[Phillycat]

129. Well, being that they are both marginally talented rappers themselves...

who cares what they think? (Dre is a world-class producer, but he's never been much of a rapper. Snoop is an entertainer and a lot of fun, but he'd be the first to admit he's not all that.)

Why don't you ask someone with ACTUAL talent? Like KRS-1, or Rakim, or Big Boi? You might want to educate yourself about this subject before you get all snippy. Bye now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

132. Your Patronizing Attitude Sucks...

I didn't realize Russell Simmoms posts here as janesez

[Phillycat]

154. You started it, buddy.

I'm sure we could have had a perfectly pleasant conversation about this and agreed to amicably disagree if you hadn't started with

Show me the name of one person who is knowledgeable of the genre who thinks Eminem is a "marginally talented rapper" and I'll revisit my opinion...

So, you start out being shitty, and I'm going to respond in kind. Duh. Don't dish it if you can't take it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

156. You Take Yourself Too Seriously Or Not Seriously Enough

"You started it, buddy."
Posted by janesez


rotflmfao

[Phillycat]

157. Uh, wha?

I'm not sure what you mean by this post. Possibly because it's incoherent.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

158. Let's Try Again....

"You started it, buddy."
Posted by janesez



I thought you might jump through your computer and beat me up....


on edit-i guess you would have to jump through your monitor....

[Seabiscuit]

139. How can one be "knowledgeable" about hip hop???

It's not as if you actually learn anything by listening to that crap.

Oh, sorry Britney. Did I step on your nauseating nasal noise?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

140. Don't Dis The Genre...

It's just another form of music...



I like all forms of music...


And I would hardly call Brittany Spears a rapper....


She's a pop entertainer....


I'll let others judge whether or not she is a good one....

[Seabiscuit]

141. I didn't call Britney a rapper. She's not. She's hip hop.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

142. Sorry...

The larger point is rap is just another form of music...

[Seabiscuit]

144. There are Motown singers who don't consider rap "music" at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. I Love Motown

The Supremes...


The Jackson Five


Marvin Gaye


The Temptations...



I want to tear down walls not build new ones...


You should see my cd case...

I love the Beatles, U2, Johnny Cash, Mary Chapin Carpenter, The Supremes, Digital Underground, Public Enemy, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, and Eminem among others...

It's all good....

[Phillycat]

155. Hmm. You don't know much about this, do you?

[UdoKier]

135. Isn't that pretty much what Stevie's done since "The Lady in Red"?

God, if I never hear "I Just Called to Say I Love You" again, it will be too soon.

[nine23]

28. "Stevie Wonderbread"? Yikes...

"Living For The City" is "Wonderbread"?

[andyhappy]

32. dont diss stevie

he has some great points.

lots of crackers to mock out there...

I am with stevie about kicking someone when they are down!

[DrWeird]

55. Now THAT is racist.

I used to know a guy who only listened to rap by Eminem and Jars of Clay. I'll bet if you look at the stuff he used to listen to in the past I'll bet it was Vanilla Ice and Third Bass.

[mark414]

63. aw but 3rd bass was the shit

gas face man!

[DrWeird]

64. LOL.

I liked the cane.

[DS1]

90. unlistenable - worst song ever!

Anthrax were better rappers than 3rd Bass, even if they were rappers by proxy :eyes:

[mark414]

103. ouch

no love for the 3rd bass...oh well

[DemocratSinceBirth]

148. Bring The Noise...

P E and Anthrax teamed up....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

113. I Listen To Eminem Now...

Vanilla Ice can blow me...


Back in the day it was Public Enemy, NWA, and Digital Underground....

[donheld]

81. Now you back off Stevie

Stevie has been a master musician for 40 years now. Stevie Wonder has more talent in his fingernails, than most of us have over a life time. He has put out some of the worlds best music. I very much doubt you know much about him. These amoung others are without question masterpieces.

[JAbuchan08]

5. I think that Eminem is

petty in his attacks on easy pop culture icons. U don't thik its eminem's place to point out wht w already know - that Michael Jackson is a sad sorry man. Em, you have skills, but why do you have to waste your time with the hackery you seem so drawn to.

[the Princess]

6. All white musicians

have succeeded on the backs of Black musicians. White people steal everyones culture and call it their own. I know I'm flame bait.

But hell if it we'ern't for black musicians there never would have been R&B - Blues - Rock -n- roll etc etc.

[sniffa]

8. white peopLe suck!

[CatWoman]

11. I can't say that for all white people

but I can say that for a couple posters on this thread.

[StopTheMorans]

18. no doubt

:)

[datasuspect]

23. they don't suck

they're just really good thieves.

/sarcasm

[mark414]

12. Mos Def had a great song about this

'Rock'n'Roll' from "Black On Both Sides"


Make me wanna HOLLA.. aowwWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
"Ah.. ah-ah, ah-ah.. ah-ah, ah-lert the squad.."
Rock and roll
"Ah.. ah-ah, ah-ah.. ah-ah, ah-lert the squad.."
Hehehe, rock and roll
"Ah.. ah-ah, ah-ah.. ah-ah, ah-lert the squad.."
Whoahhhhh-oh, oooh-weee-oooh
"Ah.. ah-ah, ah-ah.. ah-ah, ah-lert the squad.."
Whoahhhhh-oh

(Huh) My grandmomma was raised on a reservation
(Huh) My great-grandmomma was, from a plantation
They sang - songs for inspiration
They sang - songs for relaxation
They sang - songs, to take their minds up off that
fucked up situation
I am... yes I am... the descendant (yes yes)
of those folks whose, backs got broke
who, fell down inside the gunsmoke
(Black people!) Chains on they ankles and feet
I am descendants, of the builders of your street
(Black people!) Tenders to your cotton money
I am.. hip-hop
"It's heavy metal for the black people"
I am.. rock and roll (rock and roll.. rock'n'roll)
BEEN HERE FOREVER!
They just ain't let you know.. (HA!)

I said, Elvis Presley ain't got no soul (huh)
Chuck Berry is rock and roll (damn right)
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
But they ain't come up with that style on they own (uh-uh)
Elvis Presley ain't got no SOULLLL (hell naw)
Little Richard is rock and roll (damn right)
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
But they ain't come up with that shit on they own (nah-ah)

Guess that's just the way shit goes
You steal my clothes and try to say they yo's (yes they do)
Cause it's a show filled with pimps and hoes
Tryin to take everything that you made or control (there they go)
Elvis Presley ain't got no SOULLLL
Bo Diddley is rock and roll (damn right)
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
But they ain't the first place the credit belongs

Say whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-weee-ohhh
(black music) whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-weee-ohhh
(black music) whoahhhh-oh (Jimi Hendrix say) oooh-weee-ohhh
(black music) whoahhhh-oh (Albert King and) oooh-weee-ohhh
(and Motown)

(huh) I ain't tryin to diss
but I don't be tryin to fuck with Limp Bizkit
"The fuck is on your mind?"
When I get down in my zone
I be rockin Bad Brains and Fishbone
I ain't tryin to slow your groove
But that ain't the way I'm tryin to move
I don't turn on Korn to get it on;
I be playin Jimi Hendrix 'til the dawn
That's my word is bond
Sittin up on my front lawn
Got the volume turned to ten
Playin Albert King the best again (black)
When the mornin in the cooker
Got to turn on some John Lee Hooker
When I want some rock and roll
Go to Otis Redding to get some soul

Say, James Brown got plenty of soul
James Brown like to rock and roll
He can do all the shit fo' sho'
that Elvis Presley could never know (black people)
Said, Kenny G ain't got no SOULLLL
John Coltrane is rock and roll (uh-huh)
You may dig on the Rolling Stones
but they could never ever rock like Nina Simone

Say whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-wee-ohh
(black music) whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-weee-ohhh
(black music) whoahhhh-oh (don't take it) oooh-weee-ohhh
(black music) whoah-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh

"ah-lert the squad.."

{*MUSIC PICKS UP PACE AND GETS LOUDER*}

Who am IIIIiiiiiiiiIiiiII, HUH!
GET YOUR PUNK ASS UP!
ELVIS PRESLEY AIN'T GOT NO SOUL
JIMI HENDRIX IS ROCK AND ROLL
YOU MAY DIG ON THE ROLLING STONES
BUT EVERYTHING THEY DID THEY STOLE
ELVIS PRESLEY AIN'T GOT NO SOUL
BO DIDDLEY IS ROCK AND ROLL
YOU MAY DIG ON THE ROLLING STONES
BUT WE SEND THEY PUNK ASS HOME
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii (ROCK AND ROLL)
Who am IIIiiiiiiiiiii!!!
Say, rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
Who am I? Rock and ROLL!
GET YOUR PUNK ASS UP!!!!!!!
Company, MOVE!!!
For Harlem, Fort Greene, Compton
East St. Louis, Detroit (BO BO)
Chicago (BO BO) Bed-Stuy (BO BO)
Flatbush (BO BO) Brownsville (BO BO)
East New York (BO BO) Newark New Jersey (BO BO)
Illadelphia Cincinatti Atlanta the Dirty South
All towns GET YOUR PUNK ASS UP!!
"Rock and roll for the black people"
Hi ma..

"Well that was just wonderful"

[DBoon]

19. Led Zepplin stole Willy Dixon's music

quite literally

[FizzFuzz]

43. Robert Johnson's too

though where is the line between stealing and srawing inspiration from? Zeppelin experimented with lots of musical styles--Carribean, REggae, East Indian, country....

As for Eminem...
Talent or not, he's a Woman hater and a Gay hater. I don't care about his self-serving appologia of a movie.
And Mosh was sexist. NO female soldier characters. Several "bad rich bitch" female characters (well, walk-ons actually, but there to exemplify the arrogant fur-coat and daimonds ultra-rich enemy), ONE "good" female character, the main guy character's girl, who stays home and makes babies. She does put on the black hoodie, but appears to be the only female in the crowd of fed-up citizens. :wtf:

[datasuspect]

21. not flamebait

it's the truth.

if it weren't for skip james, robert johnson, elmore leonard, et al, there would not have been very much rock & roll.

if it weren't for gospel music and blues, elvis would have been a c&w superstar.

[GreenArrow]

41. same could be said of country

No Hank Williams, no Jimmie Rogers, no rock and roll. Rock and roll is a bastard child, and it has more than one parent.

[redqueen]

51. Thank you!

Look to Appalachia and the influx of melodies from Scotland/Ireland.

This laying down at the feet of black artists and acting like it was all them is bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit.

[GreenArrow]

67. glad to see someone agrees

I expected to get flamed for that comment. I own plenty of blues and early white country music, and there was a lot of borrowing going on from all sides.

[Zuni]

62. Early rock n' roll is a blend of white rockabilly/CW and blues

it has it's roots in both

[papau]

35. Bob Dylan invented rhyming hip-hop - rap - in the 60's and blacks stole it

Or if that is not enough flame bail

that MN Jewish fellow Zimmerman invented Rap - but could not sell it until he changed his name to Dylan. Anyone hearing his songs of 61-62-63 would know that. The music stops and he goes into rhyming poety - well maybe it wasn't hip hop - maybe just rap?

:-)

:toast:

:-)

[andyhappy]

38. what about skat?

wasn't that the first rap?

[papau]

47. We are getting serious - and serious is banned in the lounge - But Beat

poets of the 50's sound more like the precursor to Dylan than does bluegrass/country/"Skat"

Someone once described singers who `sing' improvised (i.e. random) contiguous pentatonic melodies and melismas as doing "skat" - the fellow hated solo singers, and most of all "skat"!

[donheld]

149. NO NO NO it was Jesus who started rap

The entire sermon on the mount was really done as a rap :crazy:

[JAbuchan08]

60. THere's no such thing as artistic "invention"

only innovation. All the "elements" of hip-hop existed before the form: spoken word, the drumbeats, turntables (even if no one had concieved of scratching). In other words hip-hop didn't spring fully formed out of somebody's head somewhere, it took the contributions of a lot of people.
Take heavy-metal, or punk rock or electronica, maybe none of these musical forms would have existed without the contributions of blacks, but it's not like anyone can own the rights to any possible future mutations of an artform that you yourself didn't even invent. What claim of ownership does your average hip-hop listener have to the works of Robert Johnson whether they are black or white or hispanic for that matter?
Pretty much what I'm saying is - we are products of our history. All those great bluesmen are part of my history even if they aren't part of my heritage. Do I have a right to admire Martin Luther King and imitate him, but not B.B. King? How exactly are white people allowed to be influenced by and in turn influence black culture?

Sorry, but I just have a real problem when the complex interactions between white and black culture turn into a blanket condemnation of "theft." It's not entirely unreasonable to see it that way, but it's pretty dismissive of the musicianship of almost every white musician that the United States has produced over the last 150-200 years.

[Zuni]

61. That is nonsense---black music is derived from JS Bach/as is all modern

all modern music is derived from the composings of JS Bach---including the modern tonal system of music (without bach we would not have blues, most jazz, rock, country or classical as we know it)
now Jazz and blues have distinctly atonal aspects, derived from African and Slave songs and some more expireiemental jazz is modular (which is an older system of keys, practiced before Bach)

Basically the modern system of music was created by JS Bach

[mark414]

65. um...

but what about all the rest of the people in the world, who WEREN'T living in europe, who never heard Bach, and still came up with their own stuff...

it's kind of impossible to credit one man with all that we have today

[Zuni]

76. It was not tonal music as we know it

the music we are talking about----all mainstream music in this country today is tonal----it is very rare to hear atonal music and not very pleasant either (check out the composer Schonenberg, and Miles Davis's expieriemantal jazz album ESP---these are basic atonal pieces with no resolve--they are rather jarring to listen to)
Bach developed the system of keys and scales which virtually all western music and all popular music use

[the Princess]

66. All music developed from

African rhythms. Sorry. :)

[GreenArrow]

72. no, it didn't

sorry.

[mark414]

73. then where DID it come from?

[GreenArrow]

88. that's a good question

I tend to believe that music exists independently. Music is a Universal, like language, or numbers. It simply is. Different peoples approach it differently, largely due to environmental and cultural factors, and as such, people discover and express it differently, no matter where they live.

[Zuni]

74. Your source on this?

A rythym is not music---it is an element of music. JS Bach invented the modern musical system of keys and scales, creating tonal music.

[Phillycat]

75. Of course you are correct.

[Zuni]

77. Thank you jane

in the rush to be PC and 'prove' a white man did not invent modern music as we know it, they have been attacking me on this and other threads---I was even called a white supremacist and 'culturally insensitive :grr:

:hi:

[Phillycat]

78. Well, you are looking at it in a broader sense than they are.

And they do not understand, actually, what you're saying, because they don't know enough about music to understand. Most people listen to music in a shallow way--they hear a certain beat and it reminds them of something else. They don't understand that music is mathematical and THAT is what you're referring to.

Now, as Kerinena said below, there's not denying the vast influence of certain geniuses of music like Stevie and Ray Charles, but of course you are not denying that. You're talking about two different things.

[Karenina]

98. I AM THE JUILLIARD GRADUATE

and world traveller who has been calling you out on your grotesque ignorance and fraudulent claims. Zuni, give it up. Have you EVER LIVED ANYWHERE outside of the U.S.? Ever BEEN to Leipzig?

[CarbonDate]

119. Well aren't you just special n/t

.

[Karenina]

138. Actually,

Yes, I am. :evilgrin:

[GreenArrow]

91. exactly

.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

146. Tell that to Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Indonesian, Vietnames, Korean,

Arabic...you get my point yet?

[mondo joe]

80. Everyone succeeds on the backs of someone else. BFD.

Everyone succeeds on the backs of others.

Are we going to OWN cultural developments now?

Are black scientists succeeding on the backs of Europeans who developed scientific method?

Are white farmers succeeding on the backs of ancient Africans who developed agriculture?

[FredScuttle]

85. ain't no Black musician in the world

that's going to take credit for Leo Sayer.

[DS1]

92. what an M.C. Hammer sized pantload

Tell that to Mozart

[CarbonDate]

116. Country music

Stems from white people. As does classical music. I don't like country, but let's be fair.

[Bridget Burke]

152. Country music has roots in folk music of the British isles, but....

Every country pioneer was also influenced by African-American music--usually by having specific black teachers & associates.

The Carter Family, Jimmy Rodgers, Hank Williams, Bill Monroe & Bob Wills for starters. If you like, I'll name some names.

[brentspeak]

123. Good grief

That is the ultimate Afrocentric-crackpot-position (if opined by a black person) or the ultimate white-liberal-guilt-trip (if opined by a white person) if ever I read one.

"On the backs of"?? Yes, black Americans pretty much invented jazz, R&B, rock&roll, and rap. Black musicians even played a larger-than-acknowledged role in the formation of country-and-western. But to say that white people have "exploited" black people's music is laughable. Someone is not "allowed" to play or be influenced by someone else's music, simply because they are of different races? Genres of music are the sole province of a selected race? We are talking about notes, sounds, rhythms swirling around in the ether...there is no "black" or "white" right to any of it (except for song copyrights).

Heck, in the early 1960's, it was white musicologists who searched and sought out the great early but forgotten black blues musicians to interview and record them. Most of the musicians had forgetten even how to play their own instruments. But the musicologists (such as the late Alan Wilson, later of the blues-rock band Canned Heat) took the time to reteach them the old songs and how to play them. The result? Old black guys who were wasting away in Mississippi shacks were given a new lease on life, playing their music at paid gigs all over the U.S.

You might not even know about many of the blues songs or musicians that you believe were ripped-off if white musicians had not resurrected and supported them in the first place. Needless to say, except for a few individuals like Taj Mahal, black America largely had no interest in keeping knowledge about blues music alive.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

145. What about Gregorian Chant?

[chenGOD]

150. Even Bach and Beethoven?

Even Glenn Gould?

[sniffa]

10. i agree

eminem is much better than tupac.

q. have you seen stevie wonder's father?

[mattclearing]

15. I'm disappointed.

People said the same thing about Elvis, The Beatles, and Led Zeppelin.

The usual argument is that these artists successfully brought predominantly black art to a white audience.

I don't think Eminem is to blame for this phenomenon any more than the aforementioned artists. Should he apologize for doing what he does, simply because he is white?

Stevie is one of the greatest musician/songwriters in history. I am a big fan, and it's sad to hear this frankly racist argument coming from him. Isn't it the music that matters?

[mark414]

20. there's nothing "racist" about it

and to use that word is laughable

[mattclearing]

25. If Eminem were black

Would we be having this conversation?

[mark414]

31. of course not

no need to state the obvious

stevie's just kind of stating the obvious too...with every single form of music, pretty much ever, black people invented it and white people made it famous (mostly cause the black people weren't allowed to be famous).

i like eminem a lot and i'll defend him til the day i die, but you have to be stupid not to acknowledge that his whiteness is part of his appeal. "white trash" kids who grew up like them but can't relate to black rappers finally have someone they can identify with. i bet that's a substantial portion of his fan base.

and regardless, you can't call something like this racism. prejudice, maybe, but racism??? racism = prejudice+power, the latter of which stevie wonder lacks on a fundamental level. definitely not racist. one only has to listen to one or two of his songs to realize that's definitely not the case.

[mattclearing]

36. I agree with most of that,

but Stevie has great power because of the credibility of his music. I'm saying that Em isn't responsible for the society that turns him into the great white rapper. All he did was make the rhyme.

[mark414]

40. on a basic fundamental level

stevie wonder lacks power

on that same level, eminem HAS power

all by the virtue of the colors of their skin

that is all

[DrGonzoLives]

46. Please find a dictionary

Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over all others.

Prejudice + power gives the opportunity for discrimination. Anyone can be a racist.

[mark414]

49. oh christ not this again

i can read a dictionary

[neoteric lefty]

52. every form of music ever... what a gross generalization

Orchestral music, Opera, country... to say any race of people created every single form of music is quite an ignorant statement (the statement, not you). Why do we care who "invented" any particular form of music? Music is an art, and with all forms of art, it is there to be adapted and modified by whomever wants to to advance the culture. You make it seem like rap music is a item owned and controlled by blacks. So Eminem is white; who cares? That part of him doesn't make him any better or any worse than any other performer. I get kind of sick hearing people say Eminem is somehow "selling-out" or taking away something from more deserving black rappers because of the color of his skin. That is like a white guy saying that he didn't get the job because some black guy took it away from him, due to affirmative action.

I just wish people would stop focusing on the color of a artist's skin and judge him by his abilities and creative content. Do I like Eminen much? No, but that has nothing to do with his "whiteness" in a black art form.

I am not trying to call you or anyone else out. I just get tired of people from all sides having the same argument over and over.

[mark414]

54. we should just give credit where credit is due is all

and realize WHY the people who invented weren't allowed to make money off it or become famous because of it

and if you'll read it again, i didn't say every form ever, though i did say pretty much every form ever.

that is all.

[mattclearing]

57. Eminem does that.

I think Eminem hates the fact that society puts him on a pedestal above other rappers more than anybody, other than maybe the Source. It's not like he's Elvis, pretending he invented it.

[noiretextatique]

159. gotta give him credit for that

:thumbsup: he's not pretending.

[neoteric lefty]

58. "Pretty much every form of music"

is still a gross generalization. I guess you could be right in a technical sense due to the fact that evidence suggests that all modern humans migrated out of Africa. But thats a whole different topic :). I feel bad that those who were the pioneers of hip hop couldn't have the same success as today's rappers. But, today's artist shouldn't be blasted because they don't fit the mold constructed by those pioneers. I don't know if he recognizes the history of his art form; he should. All artists should have some form of recognition. But, Stevie says that because he is rich and white, and those before him where poor and black, then he should somehow censor his art when it comes to those same blacks. I just don't agree with Stevie. It sounds like Stevie is pushing personal feelings into a place where they shouldn't be.

[GreenArrow]

68. "every single form of music, pretty much ever...

black people invented it"

Bull-shit.

[CarbonDate]

120. Black people invented country music?

Who knew?

[sniffa]

27. i'm not racist

i just hate white peopLe

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

109. Racisr argument? Eminem ADMITS it..liste to the lyrics of Lose Yourself

from the Eight Mile High soundtrack. Frankly I agree with Stevie about Eminem mocking Michael...heck it's not as though Eminem hasn't had some negative press thrown at him.

[noiretextatique]

112. he is smart enuf to know it

one thing i like about eminem...he's not in denial at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

125. Exactly....

Listen to the lyrics of "White America"....



"Shady knew Shady's dimples would help, make ladies swoon baby, ooh baby! Look at my sales/Lets do the math, If I was black I would've sold half."

[RagingInMiami]

16. When Stevie Wonder comes out with an anti-Bush song as strong as Mosh

Then maybe I'll listen to what he has to say about Eminem

[Phillycat]

24. Oh for fuck's sake.

Do you have any idea that Stevie's been writing political songs that are just as relevant today since before you were born? No, of course you don't.

[mattclearing]

29. Yeah.

That's what bugs me. The man who wrote Big Brother is condemning the guy that wrote Mosh. You'd think he would give him a pat on the back.

[Bucky]

Exemplia gratia: "My Cherie Amor"

Or maybe you were thinking "Tough Enough for the City" which will, sadly, never get old

[Phillycat]

39. I am not going to dignify this with an answer.

[CatWoman]

30. "Happy Birthday to You"

You know it doesn't make much sense
There ought to be a law against
Anyone who takes offense
At a day in your celebration
Cause we all know in our minds
That there ought to be a time
That we can set aside
To show just how much we love you
And I'm sure you would agree
It couldn't fit more perfectly
Than to have a world party on the day you came to be

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

I just never understood
How a man who died for good
Could not have a day that would
Be set aside for his recognition
Because it should never be
Just because some cannot see
The dream as clear as he
that they should make it become an illusion
And we all know everything
That he stood for time will bring
For in peace our hearts will sing
Thanks to Martin Luther King

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

Why has there never been a holiday
Where peace is celebrated
all throughout the world

The time is overdue
For people like me and you
Who know the way to truth
Is love and unity to all God's children
It should never be a great event
And the whole day should be spent
In full remembrance
Of those who lived and died for the oneness of all people
So let us all begin
We know that love can win
Let it out don't hold it in
Sing it loud as you can

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday to you
Happy birthday

Happy birthday
Happy birthday
Happy birthday
Ooh yeah
Happy birthday...
We know the key to unify all people
Is in the dream that you had so long ago
That lives in all of the hearts of people
That believe in unity
We'll make the dream become a reality
I know we will
Because our hearts tell us so

and

A boy is born in hard time mississippi
Surrounded by four walls that ain’t so pretty
His parents give him love and affection
To keep him strong moving in the right direction
Living just enough, just enough for the city...ee ha!

His father works some days for fourteen hours
And you can bet he barely makes a dollar
His mother goes to scrub the floors for many
And you’d best believe she hardly gets a penny
Living just enough, just enough for the city... yeah!

His sister’s black but she is sho’nuff pretty
Her skirt is short but lord her legs are sturdy
To walk to school she’s got to get up early
Her clothes are old but never are they dirty
Living just enough, just enough for the city...um hum

Her brother’s smart he’s got more sense than many
His patience’s long but soon he won’t have any
To find a job is like a haystack needle
Cause where he lives they don’t use colored people
Living just enough, just enough for the city...

Living just enough...
For the city... ooh, ooh
(repeat several times)

His hair is long, his feet are hard and gritty
He spends his life walking the streets of new york city
He’s almost dead from breathing in air pollution
He tried to vote but to him there’s no solution
Living just enough, just enough for the city...
Yeah, yeah, yeah!

I hope you hear inside my voice of sorrow
And that it motivates you to make a better tomorrow
This place is cruel no where could be much colder
If we don’t change the world will soon be over
Living just enough, stop giving just enough for the city!!!!

La, la, la, la, la, la,
Da ba da da da da da da
Da da da da da da
Da da da da da da da da da
(repeat to end)


and

Everyone’s feeling pretty
It’s hotter than july
Though the world’s full of problems
They couldn’t touch us even if they tried
From the park I hear rhythms
Marley’s hot on the box
Tonight there will be a party
On the corner at the end of the block

Didn’t know you
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
I bet nobody ever told you that you
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
You would be jammin’ and jammin’ and jammin’, jam on

They want us to join their fighting
But our answer today
Is to let all our worries
Like the breeze through our fingers slip away
Peace has come to zimbabwe
Third world’s right on the one
Now’s the time for celebration
’cause we’ve only just begun

Didn’t know that you
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
Bet you nobody ever told you that you
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
You would be jammin’ and jammin’ and jammin’, jam on
Bet you nobody ever told you that you
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
I know nobody told you that you
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
We’re jammin’, jammin’, jammin’, jam on

You ask me am I happy
Well as matter of fact
I can say that I’m ecstatic
’cause we all just made a pact
We’ve agreed to get together
Joined as children in jah
When you’re moving in the positive
Your destination is the brightest star

You didn’t know that you
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
I bet you nobody ever told you that you
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, you
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
Don’t you stop the music, oh no,
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Na, na na...
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Nobody told you oh, oh, oh, you
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
I bet you if someone approached you
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Yesterday to tell you that you would be jammin’ you would not believe it because you never thought that you would be jammin’
Oh, oh, oh, oh,
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Jammin’ ’til the break of dawn
Oh, oh, oh, you may as well believe what you are feeling
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Because you feel your body jammin’
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
Oh, oh, you would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)
(we’re in the middle of the makin’s of the master blaster jammin’)

[Phillycat]

34. I posted this earlier today. :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2153491

[papau]

56. Excellent memory! - It so fits Bush!

:-)

[RagingInMiami]

44. yes, i do

And I know he's a democrat. But I'm talking about today. I think more musicians need to come out with these types of songs.

[noiretextatique]

111. songs in the key of life

several political songs on that album. not to mention it was (and is) awesome!

[LincolnMcGrath]

22. Stevie should have the lyrics read to him again.

"what else could i possibly do to make noise
I done touched on everything, but little boys
That's NOT a stab at Micheal
That's just a metaphor, I'm just psycho"

[GreenArrow]

33. Eminem, more accurately, transcended color to succeed

nt

[madrchsod]

45. kicking someone when he is down

much respect for his work
not as good as tupac
lower pay bracket
people of color...what`s the problem

i`ve seen the video and it is repulsive on many levels,but that`s my opinion. what stevie said seems pretty much on target. and for those whosay it`s racial -lower wage bracket-i make 8.75 an hour,people of color? black ,brown,white,red,yellow it really doen`t make any difference now does it. when someone is making money off the sweat of your labor and not paying you shit-it doesn`t make one bit of difference now does it. we are all in the same fuck`n boat.

[noonwitch]

48. Stevie may like Tupac's "music" better, but at least Eminem is alive

I hate rap, I prefer Stevie's music to any of it. However, Eminem is no more guilty of making money off the backs of black people as Elvis is. He's a white kid who grew up around mostly black kids. Of course he participated in black youth culture. Most white males I know under the age of 35 listen to rap.

I don't know about other places, but I live in Warren, just north of 8 Mile. The kids from my side of it and the Detroit kids south of 8 Mile all hang out together, listen to music together, shoot hoops together, etc. Isn't that what we want in our society, our kids getting along and not judging others on their skin color when they pick their friends?

No one group owns any type of music.

[DrWeird]

53. Whoa, hang on there. Eminem is way less "guilty."

Elvis literally stole the songs and sold them to white people who would never have listen to the same songs being performed by black people.

Eminem writes original stuff.

[Bridget Burke]

71. Elvis didn't "steal" any songs.

He did cover versions. The originals were available to anybody who had a radio.

[DrWeird]

83. "The originals were available to anybody who had a radio."

Sure, and nobody listened to them because they were "black" songs.

[redqueen]

50. I love Eminem

:loveya:

[Karenina]

70. Little Richard

just celebrated a birthday. In his honor I humbly suggest that any poster above who has interest in the truth, google his name and read of his "fortunes." IIRC it was only AFTER he "ran to da border" that he had the resources to reclaim what was stolen from him. Reading this thread has made me VERY SAD and sick to my stomach. :puke: The denial, co-opting, Bach idiocy, lack of acknowledgement of the originators from ignorant "consumers" is more than I can bear.

My first rap song, "Greenback Dollar Bill" Ray Charles.

The FATHER of techno: MOZART.

To breathe Eminem's handle in the same sentence as Stevie is BLASPHEMY.

[DrWeird]

82. Gotta disagree on Ray Charles.

Rap was the logical evolution of MCing for DJs in the Bronx, late 70's.

There were a few things that sound kind of like it before. But rap was wholly unique.

[Karenina]

84. Don't mix it up with me Dr. Weird...

I'm from Hollis. I KNOW what WHO grew up listening to.

"There were a few things that sound kind of like it before." Well, DUH!

[DrWeird]

95. LOL. Yeah, I'm from Compton.

And my dad was Cool Herc.

So don't fuck with me.

:smoke:

[Karenina]

96. You be WEST COAST darlin'

We talkin' EAST CAOST here! :evilgrin: :loveya:

[noiretextatique]

108. i'm from compton too

moved down the block to carson in the early seventies, but i spent my formative years there. tibby elemetary, vanguard jr. high.

[noiretextatique]

107. spoken word has a much longer tradition

gil scott...the last poets...wanda coleman...and others.
there's nothing new under the sun.

[noiretextatique]

69. so what else is new?

eom

[Karenina]

87. The moon?

:eyes:

[noiretextatique]

105. what's this you say: "moon?"

i am unfamiliar with this word, and i am totally unfamiliar with this concept..."moon." does it have anything with elvis? LMAO. racism in the music industry?!! perish the thought :eyes:

[Karenina]

143. Blatant, soul-destroying, ubiquitous racism?

The Moon's a Harsh Mistress. ;-)

[Blue_Tires]

86. lol...Stevie tells it like it is

[Deja Q]

89. And he's right.

[NamVetsWeeLass]

93. I hate to say it, But someone check Stevie's glasses

They are on too Tight. Yeah Tupac was good, But, Ummmm, He's No Eminem. Wonder who Stevie Voted for??? Remember... Tupac shot to death in the East West coast thing, Eminem writes songs like MOSH. Hmmmmm...Methinks Stevie needs to buy a clue. Just my $.02

[mark414]

102. shit, i think even eminem would tell you that pac was one of the best

and i'm sure that if tupac were alive today he would have a hell of a whole lot to say about bush...he certainly said a lot about poppy bush

[KamaAina]

94. On the backs of people of color? You mean like Dr. Dre?

The Dr. Dre who produces Eminem? Sheesh.

We love you, Stevie, but that's kinda weak. Maybe Stevie's just not a big hip-hop fan...

[Karenina]

97. Specially not as they done

STOLEN lots of his work. My you yung'uns are SO uniformed and ARROGANT.

[KamaAina]

100. Rappers prefer to think of it as "sampling"

hadn't even considered that angle.

'Sampling = theft?" might make a nice thread of its own, actually.

[Karenina]

101. Thanx, KamaAina

for picking up on that. I remember some years back, Stevie gritting his teeth in a photo-op with some rappers who were so rude to say in his presence, we sampled it, it's OUR tune now (paraphrasing). I was AMAZED at Stevie's composure. My neighbor is a major player in "Rap" coming out of here... some years ago he played me a "latest hit" and I asked, "Are you paying the I***** at least a penny for co-opting their shit?" He just rolled his eyes at me.

[mark414]

104. REAL sampling isn't theft

taking an instrumental song and throwing a hip hop drum track underneath it, however, is bullshit. think puff daddy for that.

but REAL sampling is a complete art in it's own self. and yes, at least these days, artists are compensated via royalties.

but i challenge anyone to listen to beastie boys 'paul's boutique' or pretty much any public enemy album and then try to dis sampling.

[Dastard Stepchild]

99. Eminem may have been inspired by the old greats...

but he still has to get up there and perform on his own, so his performance is very much a representation of himself. Maybe he didn't make the mold, but he refined it to fit him. I don't see a problem with that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. Dr. Dre Produced The Record...

If he thought Eminem crossed the line I believe Eminem wouldn't have recorded it....

[Iris]

110. Who compared Eminem and Tupac?

One's dead. The other isn't. What's the big deal?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. I Respect Stevie...

I have the Songs In The Keys Of Life cd and still listen to it from time to time but his argument is specious...



Whether or not Eminem should diss Michael Jackson is debateable but why did Stevie have to say

1) Tupac is better than Eminem


2) Eminem appropriated the black man's music...

Stevie's argument stands on it own without bringing extraneous stuff into it.....

[brentspeak]

117. Wait a minute, wait a minute

Stevie Wonder: "Kicking someone when he's down is not a good thing."

Someone should remind Stevie that he scored a #1 single in 1974 for "You Ain't Done Nothing", which blasted a disgraced Richard Nixon in the wake of his resignation. (Not like I'm a big fan of Richard Nixon, but that song always seemed liked "piling on" to me).

[ProfessorGAC]

126. It Was Written Long Before The Resignation

It just didn't show up on an album until after Nixon resigned in disgrace. So, Stevie wasn't piling on. He was thinking and writing that as a reaction to the speech Nixon gave in accepting the 1972 Republican nomination. Look at his biography. The whole story is in there.
The Professor

[Phillycat]

128. Correct!

See my post about this song above. I had a whole thread about this yesterday. :)

Lovely to see you, Professor. Weren't you on vacation for a while? How was it?

[ProfessorGAC]

131. No. Business Travel

So, the answer is, tedious. I don't really care for the cattle herding nature of air travel, and all the hurry-up and wait. But, i was dealing with some clever folks (with similar jobs) for most of the trip, and they were all pleasant for math and science geeks. (Including myself in that, btw.)

But, job pays far too well to stop the travel. So, i grin and bear it. But, i never have much fun on my trips. Strictly business.
The Professor

[Phillycat]

136. Ah, well, I'm happy to see you back then.

:)

[brentspeak]

130. OK, if that's the case, then I agree it wasn't 'piling on' (n/t)

[ProfessorGAC]

133. Cool!

I'm a big Stevie fan, and i wasn't going to take a position on this thread, but i knew for sure that your problem with the song wasn't right. Didn't want you to not like the song for the wrong reason, or not like is as much as you'd like to for the wrong reason.

The Professor

[UdoKier]

134. Love Stevie, but he's wrong here.

If there is any example of people who "succeeded on the backs of people of color", it would be Michael himself, since he would be nowhere if it had not been for his father's relentless drive, and for Quincy Jones' genius as a producer. At best he would be a break-dancer on cardboard in the subway station.

I'm not a huge eminem fan, but I respect what he's done. No black rapper would have approached things lyrically the way he did -he created his own niche. And Michael wouldn't be having this problem if he didn't spend every waking hour tying to cultivate the image of a child molester.

Hey, Stevie, have you seen Michael's shot-out face? Oh, yeah, you haven't.

[noiretextatique]

160. i believe this is all called "business savvy"

the jackson5 was a success because there was a huge market for their music...and their image. same with eminem.
there are probably people who are a lot more talented than both who didn't have the combo of skill, determination, luck and genetics.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

151. Isn't Dre Responsible For This?

He produced it?


Why didn't Stevie call out Dre?



And if Eminem is stealing the black man's music what's to be said of Dre and Snoop Dog who are aiding and comforting him?

[Threedifferentones]

162. Well now we know who Eminem will insult in his next single.