Whatever happened to the Childfree DU'ers group?

[Heddi]

I haven't seen it around and I would love to be a part of it....not so I can bash parents and children, but as someone who is childfree by choice, there are alot of misconceptions (no pun intended) about why my husband and I are childfree, why we remain childfree, and why we're so ambiguous about having children in the future. It would be interesting to have a group of people who are in my same situation to 'vent' to about the nosy prodding of supposedly well-meaning friends and family members.

So where it be? I know there was alot of interest in it, but I don't see it in the groups listed (unless I'm just missing it completely)

:)

[Droopy]

1. The last I heard of it

It was being reviewed by Skinner and he thought the mission statement needed to be reworded so as to prevent people from bashing others who choose to have children. I don't know what happened after that.

[Midlodemocrat]

4. Why would anyone bash someone who chose to have kids?

They are the ones who will be taking care of us in our old age. All of us. I wouldn't bash anyone who chose not to have kids and I can't believe someone would actually bash someone who chose to have kids.

[ikojo]

11. I don't buy this argument that your kids will be taking care of me

when I am old. I seriously doubt you want your kids to be CNAs. They are the ones who take care of people in their old age when their loving children have decided to wharehouse them in a nursing home. Leave the care to underpaid CNAs is what our society teaches.

Also, just because you have kids does not mean they will give a rat's patootie about you when they are grown and you are old. It's all a crap shoot really.

I've never wanted kids because I grew up poor/lower middle class and felt I was an incredible burden on my mom. If only she had not had all those kids (seven) then perhaps she would not have had all the financial problems she did after she was divorced. I did not want to live like that, worrying about how I was going to feed a kid. No siree!

[Midlodemocrat]

12. In a general sense, all of my kids' generation

will be 'taking care' of all of us, as policemen, firemen, pharmacists, etc. It is unrealistic to say that they won't. And it is not a crapshoot about whether they will give a rat's patootie about me/us. They have witnessed our taking care of my dad and are growing up in a loving home. And although I don't know the extent of your mom's situation, I seriously doubt that you were a major contributor to her problems. I believe you were probably one of seven things that brought her joy.

[ikojo]

15. I didn't feel like we brought her joy.

I do recall hearing that she could not wait until we all turned 18 so we'd be out of the house. That I remember well.

[Midlodemocrat]

26. Well, as a parent

sometimes I say things in jest that I don't mean. I bet it was the same for your mom.

[Rabrrrrrr]

46. But how do you know?

Why not admit that there are plenty people out there who wish they didn't have kids, and for whom the kids are a burden that is not the joyful bliss that society (or The Church) promised them it would be?

[Modem Butterfly]

48. It's better to have wanted children than unwanted children

I sometimes explain myself to people by saying, "I feel pretty indifferent to the idea of having children, and that's not a good omen for having kids. I think if you're going to have kids, you should be sure you want them before you have them, because once they're here, there's no going back," Of course, sometimes peope will still tell me that if I only had kids, I'd be sure I want them...

:eyes:

[Rabrrrrrr]

51. I totally agree

and agree with your last point, about the shitness of saying "Oh, but once you have the kids, you'll 'be fine'."

:puke:

That amounts to a total denial of a person's humanity by telling that what they want isn't "correct" or "morally acceptable" or "really, really dumb".


Like this:
"I don't want children."

"You're a liar. Everyone wants children."

[Midlodemocrat]

56. And it is true,

not everyone does want children. and not everyone should HAVE children.

[Midlodemocrat]

50. I don't know.

I was just attempting to cheer up the previous poster.

[Rabrrrrrr]

52. Denying their experience isn't so much "cheering up"

Now, it might have been - I'm not the person you were responding to, so I can't speak on his/her behalf.

But you DID contradict that person's life experience and story.

And I'm not flaming you or anything here, just offering some helpful thoughts on making sure we don't disparage someone else's experience just because it isn't like ours. I'm certainly guilty of it at times, and thankfully I've had people nice enough to counter-challenge me when I've told them that their experience is "wrong". Learned some valuable lessons, I did.

[Midlodemocrat]

55. Well, honestly

...since you aren't the one I was responding to, what I meant by my posts to her/him is not to deny that their feelings were real, but that perhaps the comments were not meant as they were intended. It is obvious from the posts that this person has a lot of pain due to this experience, but people do often say things they really don't mean in the heat of the moment. Additionally, one man's ceiling is another man's floor and if this poster feels that they might someday want children and perhaps the only stopping them is the comments made by his/her mom, then maybe he/she should reconsider. I wouldn't allow anyone's comment on such an important subject to sway me one way or the other.

[Rabrrrrrr]

45. You see, you've bought into the "child bring joy and are wondrous"

part of our culture/society. The poster has already told you that the children did not bring joy into the life of his/her mother, but yet you insist that, no, the poster must have been one of the seven things that brought her joy.

Children are not a joy to everyone who has them; they can become a burden, especially when finances are dim. It would be nice if our society could get over the idea that children are little bundles of joy, the absence of which is the only thing keeping one from perfect bliss and harmony. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't, and I, for one, would like to see society start owning up to that truth.

And yes, it is a crapshoot - it's a crapshoot you can help sway, but it's still a crapshoot - as to whether your children will care about or help you in old age.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. Ain't it the truth though?

Also, just because you have kids does not mean they will give a rat's patootie about you when they are grown and you are old. It's all a crap shoot really.

My grandmother had Alzheimer's AND Parkinson's diseases. We took care of her at home as long as we could (I had to grow up fast- by 11 I was bathing her, feeding her and even changing her diaper sometimes). Eventually, we justn couldn't take care of her at home anymore and we had to put her in a home. My mother visited her nearly every day and we went out there every weekend. At that point, she didn't recognize any of us, so my mom asked my brother and I to visit some of the other residents who were in a position to appreciate kids (we were early teens by this time). Many of those folks had no one who visited them at all. I remember my dad making a point of buying two or three bouquets of flowers on Mother's Day and other days to share with the other residents. It was all very sad. I'm sure most of these folks didn't know they were raising total shits.

The best plan for everyone, childfree and breeder alike, is to put away as much $$ as they can towards their dottage.

[Jokerman]

34. Two sides to every story

I am one of those "total shits" of which you speak. Most people who meet my father these days seem to think he is a sweet old guy who's children have abandoned him for no reason. Truth is that for most of his life he was drunk and abusive.

He is completely unrepentant for his past behavior and spending time with him in the nursing home only reminds me of the hell I grew up in.

He is the primary reason I have no desire for children of my own.

[Modem Butterfly]

35. Touche

[Patiod]

38. (OT) My grandmother was like that

My dad got a call from a nun that was trying to help her, something along the line of "how could you children abandon a 98-year-old woman?".

He got a call a few weeks later apologizing, and the nun said she could understand how the family might not want any part of my grandmother.

[Phillycat]

2. If you go back to the original thread in the Lounge.

You can see that people were already looking forward to it for a place to bash parents and children. This was on the mission statement thread. Skinner decided it wouldn't be worth the risk. That was the last I read in the ATA.

And I must say, I'm glad. I think it's a divisive issue and if both sides can't respect the other, the last thing they need to do is to provide a forum for the flame-age. :)

[phaseolus]

3. speaking of stupid pointless insulting flame threads...

...whose only purpose is to make people feel all smug 'n sanctimonious, I haven't seen any circumcision discussions here for a while now...

:evilgrin:

[Heddi]

5. But there's a parenting forum for people who are parents

I don't want to bash parents or children---that's not my intent, and I didn't know that teh mission statement included anything about bashing those with children.

But I don't think that a childfree forum is, in and of itself, divisive...any more divisive than a parenting forum is.

Being childfree by choice has given me and my husband SO many headaches in our lives. I swear to God that he didn't even have the ring on my finger before my mom & his mom & sisters were coming up and asking when we were going to start "having a familY"---uh, I have a family. My husband, my mom, his mom & dad...that's a family.

Even at school, I'm one of the only people in my class that doesn't have a kid. When I tell people we don't have a kid, at first they say "oh I'm sorry" as if I had a miscarriage or are infertile. I tell them "hey! Don't be sorry for me, I'm sure as hell not". THEN they come out "why don't you want kids? Don't you like kids? Kids are great! Kids are fun! You should have them! You'd make a good mother. You'll be more responsible. You're not truly a person until you have a kid" blah blah blah.

I can only tell people "it's really none of your business" SO many times. It's nice to be around people who find themselves the center of such selfish and unwarranted attention as childfree people are.

I use my personal live journal to rant against bratty parents and bratty kids. I use DU to connect with people who are in my similar situation (Democrat, pro-life, women's issues, sep of church/state, etc) so that we can have rational discussions.

I don't need to vent about parents. I just wanna have unfettered conversation with childfree folks without having the DU parents come in (as has happened in EVERY childfree thread) talking about "Oh well you know, I used to not want kids and now that I have them what a joy. You shouldn't poo-poo the idea until you try it.." as if having kids is just a hobby one can take or leave at any time.

Sorry....I'm not trying to flame. I'm really not. I'm anxiously awaiting my grades for this quarter to be posted on line, they're not, and I"m getting testy. :)

[tigereye]

6. no one should have to be made to feel bad about

not having kids. It's a choice. I didn't have a kid til I was in my mid 30s and it's not always easy. I always think it is unfair to give people grief about those choices - many of my friends chose not to have kids and they enjoy their lives fine. Kids are a lot of work, wonderful, too, but just one option. :)

[Heddi]

7. Completely

I'm pro choice--and that means I support ALL reproductive choices---from using contraceptives, from getting abortion, from putting child up for adoption, from having 20 kids, from having no kids.

I think what pisses me off, especially about my family's input---Mark and I are both in Nursing School...well, he's about to get in in 2006, and I'll be graduating in 2006. It's a very competitive program and I took 2 years of pre-requisites just to be QUALIFIED for the program and waited another year just to be accepted.

We're living on bare beans right now. We knew we were going to be in school so for the past 2-3 years, we lived on 1/2 of 1 income and saved the other 1 1/2 income so that we could live work-free while we were in school.

What pisses me off about the family's input is they KNOW how hard we've worked in school to get this far. They KNOW how important it is to us to not just finish our education, but to get stellar grades and excell as much as possible while we're in school.

To suggest to us, as they often do, that we'd be more 'responsible' or 'happy' or 'fulfilled' if we have kids....I just keep saying to them "Look....if I had a kid now, I'd have to drop out of school. We've got no health insurance, so i'd have to get a job. I'd have to arrange for daycare, and Mark would probably have to drop out of school as well because we'd need another car (for 2 jobs), and we'd have to move into a bigger rental house for the bedroom. How in the WORLD can you say that we'd be better people by quitting school? How in the WORLD can you say that we'd be more responsible than we are now?" I mean, we're the MOST responsible people I have ever met.

I haven't ever said "nope, not ever having kids" but come on---I'm not going to graduate school until I'm 30 and my husband won't graduate until he's 35. That's a LONG way away. I want to at least be able to work in the field before I settle down and have a baby.

I guess I'm much more future oriented than present oriented, and I can't think about having a kid now just like I can't think about having a dog now, or buying a new car now, or buying a house now. Now isn't the right time...which isn't to say that there will never Be a right time...but I can't see where I'll be in 5 years. Hell, I may decide to have 4 babies in a row...but not right now.

Sorry. I'm rambling again. I really wish they'd post my grades so I can leave y'all folks alone :)

[tigereye]

8. I didn't have a kid til I was 37

after graduate school and passing licensure for my profession. Then we bought a house. All at once. People need to wait til they are ready... having a kid is a big emotional and financial decision. Luckily I rarely heard any " when are you going to have kids?" questions from my or my husband's family. We had fun then and worked hard, and we have a different kind of fun now.

[GRLMGC]

9. Don't let anyone get on your case

You're being responsible.

[Phillycat]

21. All right, I found it. It took a while.

Here's the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2000005&mesg_id=2000005

and I think this is the sort of thing that the admins were concerned about:

post #55:. Yes, on one condition.
That we not insult people with kids.

And then the replies to post #55:

58. sorry
That's half the fun right there. Some parents SUCK, and if I can't call them breeders or moos or whatnot, the group won't be half as cathartic as it needs to be.

59. I'm with Zomby on this
If we could voice our anger at the social pressures to have kids and to hold up some pious "all children are wonderful, and all parents are blessed" crap without getting blasted by the parturition police who feel a need to jump in on every venting thread, we wouldn't be gunning for a group of our own.

64. It's a CHILDFREE group....I don't want to talk about kids...
I don't want to hear about kids. I think some parents ARE bad parents and should not have had kids...we should have a right to rant about bad parenting we see out there in the world. Just because we do not have kids does not mean we do not suffer the effects of very poorly thought out breeding and parenting skills.

Just because someone has spawned does not a saint make them.

[Pacifist Patriot]

14. I have never understood why this is a flame-fest waiting to happen, but

invariably it is. The vast majority of child-free sites on the web are distressing to say the least. Why should anyone care whether anyone else has children or not? I honestly don't get the animosity on either side.

[Modem Butterfly]

18. To be perfectly blunt, being a woman who is childfree is often like...

...having a target on your back. People freak out. I'm a hardcore atheist liberal of color in a mixed-race non-marriage living in a red state, yet the one thing the pukes really seize on is my childfree status. Don't get me wrong, it's often no fun telling red-state fundies I'm an atheist, but their reactions are nothing like the towering, Jesus-based rages they get when they find out I'm childfree. Oh wow. People just about lose their f-ing minds, black people, white people, rich, poor, religious, heathen, conservative and communist, they all urge me to breed. I had a gay friend and co-worker once tell me once that she felt it was easier for her to come out as a lesbian at our office than for me to tell people I didn't want children.

OK, rant off. There's a lot for childfree people to talk about, particularly women. That's where much of the anger comes from.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. Ok, I am not child-free

...but I would never, ever ask another woman when she planned to become a parent, if ever. Does that really happen? So many of my friends have wanted to become pregnant and been unable to, that Iconsider it cruel and insensitive to ask. Additionally, if someone plans to remain child-free, that is their business and their business alone. I do draw the line however, at people who rant about my choosing to have children. As Hillary says, 'it takes a village'.

End of rant. sorta.

[Modem Butterfly]

28. Oh yes indeedy

It's worse for me than for my partner, who is male. Often one of the first questions I am asked when I meet someone new is "How many children do you have?" (I guess I'm of an age where it's assumed I have children) to which I reply, "None," and get either immediate sympathy, embarassed silence, or invasive questions. Sometimes, all three. I don't like to lie, but telling the truth is often more trouble than it's worth, with the hearer telling me I'll change my mind as soon as I get older (If it hasn't changed in 32 years it's not going to change now), telling me how beautiful my children would be, even asking me about my gynecological health. It's gotten to the point where, when asked, I'll say, "My partner and I don't have any great desire to have children at this point. We've decided that if we change our minds, we'll adopt," which is technically true I suppose. This usually, but not always stops the busybodies. I keep threatening to just tell people I'm a lesbian and just see if they keep asking me if I'm going to have kids.

[Midlodemocrat]

29. Okay, that is too funny.

but seriously, two of my dearest friends are lesbians and they have a child. Always wanted one, and they are wonderful parents. The question is actually no one's business.

[Modem Butterfly]

31. No kidding

(Pun fully intended)

Just today I had a coworker ask me what we were getting for our kids this Xmas. I told her we had no children and she said "Well, that's a shame. When are you planning on having some?" And I gave her my whole, not-too-jazzed-blah-blah-blah deal, and she said, "Kids aren't something you can plan for. You just have them and you'll be amazed at how much you want them and how everything in life just falls in place around them. It's like magic!" I just smiled and walked away. When I got back to my desk, a buddy of mine who'd heard the conversation e-mailed me this:

You should go sit on Santa's lap at the mall. I hear he's gotten several nice girls pregnant for Christmas

[Courtesy Flush]

37. I tell people...

...that my wife can't bear children.

Hey. It's not a lie :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. And sadly, the problem doesn't come from the child-free side at all

The problem is with the child-having side constantly pressuring and asking stupid-ass questions about people's reproductive choices.

Not all child-having do that, of course, but the fault is entirely on that "side". Sad part is, there really is no reason for there to be "sides" at all in the issue, excepting that the child-having have a segment within them that won't shut up about asking the child-free about their reproductive choices.

And so and thus, there's a good amount of animosity on the child-free side toward the nosy, rude, and verbally abusive child-having side.

And you're totally right - it shouldn't be an issue at all. No one should care one way or the other, and there's no reason for animosity. But we have a culture in which children are worshipped - well, actually, not so much children, but having children is worshipped - and a culture in which a huge segment of it believes that happiness comes only through marriage and children, and that segment won't shut the hell up.

(and note to the child-having before you feel the need to flame me: please note that I said it was only a SEGMENT of the child-having population who are nosy, rude, and verbally abusive, not ALL.)

[seaglass]

47. Sorry, it's a two-way street. There are a number of people

who have expressed hatred of children and used demeaning terms for both parents and children on DU in the past.

It was pretty clear in those threads that those with children weren't judging those who were child-free about their choice but rather about their expressions of hate and their judgmental attitudes about parents - I recognize that there may have been a few exceptions.

I'm not flaming you, I'm just setting the record straight.

[Rabrrrrrr]

54. No, it's not a two-way - it's been overwhelmingly one-way

And please note that I did not say I was talking about DU. Nor did I even mention DU in this context. I was talking about American Society and Culture.

And in American (and most countries) Society and Culture, there is incredible pressure that "kids make happiness" and that people should be married, and that they should have kids. I don't see, in general society, the childless saying to the child-having "Hey - when you gonna get rid of your kids?"

But there is a shitload of "When you gonna have kids?" and "If you would just have some kids, you'd realize you want them" and "Your life isn't really complete until you have kids" and other nonsensical bullshit like that.

Now, as to the issue of the child-haters at DU - I agree, there are some - though not many - people that are virulently anti-child at times here. And that is indeed sad, but that's the way it goes.

There is also, unfortunately, a large number of hyper-emotionalistic knee-jerk assholes who think that saying "Hey - no kids in nice retaurants" or "Hey - some kid int he store just kicked me, what's up with parents who don't control their kids?" is tantamount to pushing for legislation for mandatory infanticide. We see these knee-jerk assholes pour out of the woodwork in any thread in which someone has a VERY LEGITIMATE complaint about one child and/or one parent (or family group thereof). I find that even more sad than the people who just plain hate kids and are honest about it. The latter is, perhaps unfortunate, but at least it's honest; the former is a form of willing ignorance of the facts in front of them and unwillingness to enter into dialogue.

I have been accused of being a child-hater and/or "breeder-hater", and not much could be further from the truth, simply because I have ranted about a poorly raised child. Sheesh.

But in my first post, I was talking solely about society, and not about DU. I think you have to admit, if you have eyes and ears open, that there is an amazing amount of pressure in this culture to be married and to have kids. That's just plain old irrefutable fact.

[Modem Butterfly]

17. That seems like a cop-out to me

There's a whole lot of divisive issues we discuss on DU, and there's a whole lot of flamage over issues that really are nothing (like evolution). Debate and passionate discussion should be our life's blood on DU, and the mods and clear-headed members should step up to the plate when the temperature gets too high. It seems unfair and arbitrary to single out childfree folks before the fact.

Not that I'm trying to flame you or anything, it's just that your post contained the clearest reason for the lack of a group.

[politicat]

42. Actually, the mission statement was pretty positive. Posted HERE

Here's the text. Point out to me where you think it's bashing or encouraging bashing.

The mission of the DU Childfree Group is:
>
>To discuss all topics pertaining to the conscious decision to
>remain child-free. Topics will include but are not limited to,
>economics of being childfree, legal issues, lifetime planning,
>discrimination on the job, natal family issues, population
>control and contraception.
>
>To help DUers understand that being childfree is not
>necessarily a denouncement of choosing to have children, but
>that the choice to bear children must be a conscious decision
>and the educate others on the benefits and costs of being
>childfree.
>
>To provide a place for DUers to discuss all things childfree
>and to enjoy all things childfree.
>


So, someone want to take a stab at adding something to make it more positive?

Pcat

[Zomby Woof]

10. I am all for it

I think JulieRB started a thread and it remained pretty peaceful as far as these things go.

[StopTheMorans]

13. it had trouble propagating

ba dum bah :silly:

[REP]

16. I Think We're Too Controversial

People - especially women - who defy the sociologic script are scary. For whatever reasons, we are not doing what the majority of people are doing, and that upsets some.

As for your friends and family, the next time they ask when you're going to have a baby, you can just ask them, "Why is this your business?" or "It makes me uncomfortable when you ask about my sex life like this. Please don't do it any more." Or if you're feeling more confrontational, you can give them a date - the day after hell freezes over.

For mothers who yearn to be grandmas, clip those articles about women in their lates 50s and 60s giving birth. She can have her *own* baby instead of waiting for one of yours!

[Modem Butterfly]

19. I've started to use this analogy with people

I ask people why they don't have horses. They look at me in stunned silence, like I'm crazy. I ask, "Don't you like horses? They're beautiful, intelligent animals that are very emotionally sensitive," Invariably people say yes, because just about everybody likes horsies, and then they explain that they don't have the space/time/money/energy/inclination to have horses. I tell them that's exactly why I don't want children. I like children, they're great, but not for me. Usually that shuts them up, at least for awhile.

[liontamer]

33. that's an excellent analogy

i'm going to have to steal it!

[Modem Butterfly]

49. By all means!

I'm sure I stole it from someone else at some point.

[REP]

41. This Is What Works For Me:

Nosey Parker: Do you have children?
Me: HELL NO!
Nosey Parker: Why not?
Me: Are you always this rude, or is today special?

People who know me know I've been sterilized twice (tubal ligation and uterine ablation) and that I don't particularly enjoy the company of children.

What baffles me is how the admission of not enjoying the company of children is often read by those who have them as "I enjoy being mean to children." I don't. I don't get near enough to children to mean to them!

[SiouxJ]

57. Oh, that's good

I like it. I'm going to remember that one and use it. Thanks!

[Phillycat]

53. I don't think that's why.

See my post #21 above.

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. I heard the ringleader was on maternity leave...

:shrug:

[Brewman_Jax]

22. As for me

I don't forsee having children. My father never truly wanted the job; it shows by the less-than-good care he took of my mother and siblings. We wore hand-me-downs and didn't look like kids whose dad worked for IBM. The money (actually, his money) went to buy booze and bad investments.

He had lived in So. California in the late 50's after he left the Navy. I don't remember why he returned to his hometown (Cleveland, OH), I think it was to help out his parents. I understand that he didn't do much of anything. Also, he was unmarried in his late 20's, which was looked down on in that time. He soon remedied that when he married my mother in the early 60's.

When my mother was severly ill with pneumonia over the summer (BTW, she's home and improving), the total gofer and being responsible burden was left on my shoulders. My youngest brother was semi-reliable (good in a crisis, but gone once the crisis is over), my middle brother said don't bother him and I guess it sucks being you. She didn't get divorced 25 years ago, at his urging, and now she's gotta live with it. My father stayed home, useless bastard! He didn't see her in ICU but twice, and never visited the nursing homes once she left the hospital. To make matters worse, the people at her church and other friends asked about her and he told them nothing, if he bothered to answer the phone. They had to call me for any info.

Have children if that's what you want. Having children, provided the gods bless you with healthy ones to begin with, is no guarantee that they'll care in the future.

That's enough rambling. I rarely write this much, people might think I'm smart or something. Also, my cats are allergic to kids.:silly:

[Jokerman]

23. "My cats are allergic to kids"

Great line, hope you don't mind if I use it.

[Brewman_Jax]

25. Feel free

It is a great line! :toast:

[Cheswick2.0]

24. they all got pregnant

[graywarrior]

32. If I had a kid in my twenties, the infant would have more maturity than me

I chose to not reproduce because I did not want to continue a line of misfits, freaks, drunkards and psychopaths. I got nothin against people who procreate as long as they keep them quiet during my naptime.

[PatriotGames]

36. Married and child-free by choice here!

[Patiod]

39. And there are also those in the middle

who never really chose to be childless, but never really made the whole big checking ovulation, IVF, fertility effort either.

We took care of a troubled child for a while in our thirties, and I think that may have put us off the whole big last push to try to have a child.

[Kat45]

40. I was wondering the same thing. I was looking forward to it.

[enigmatic]

43. Don't have or want children, period.

As others have said, the rage by people who are socked, SHOCKED I tell you- that my wife and I don't have children is truly unbelieveable to me. It truly is Twilight Zone-ish; I've even heard the "you're selfish for not having kids!" line more then once.

All I have to do is spend a day in Wal-Mart to know we've made the right choice.