What is it with all the whiny Christians on DU?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

I'm a Catholic by birth and by culture but I keep Christ out of politics. This is a political message board. Separation of Church and State. Freedom from religion should be as respected as freedom of religion.

Many DUers are Christians who believe that RELIGION IS A PERSONAL MATTER and don't want it shoved down their throats. They prefer to limit the discussion of religion to family and close friends, and on message boards for Christians and about religion. Not to mention that there are many NON-CHRISTIANS on DU who are here for POLITICAL DISCOURSE.

I am also BEYOND HORRIFIED to see many Christian DUers use the same rhetoric as the right-wing. Examples:

Stealing Baby Jesus from a manger scene is a hate crime like painting a swatstika on a synagogue.

No, Virginia. One is a prank that is committed by teenagers every holiday season, and the other represents the systematic murder of six million Jews.

Expressions of Christianity are being thwarted in the US by secular humanists

You absolutely have to be RETAHDED to believe this. Try being a Jew during the Christmas season.

The Ukrainian genocide was committed because the Soviets were atheists, and the Ukrainians were Christians.

Little did the person who post this know that I wrote my thesis on this very subject. The main goal of the state-imposed famine or genocide in Ukraine 1932-33 was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer/peasant and to force them into collectivization. The Ukraine at that time was the bread basket of Europe, and the Ukrainians had an individualistic farming tradition of private ownershp of land. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANTI-CHRISTIAN HATRED

Now that I've aired my grievances, Happy Festivus, Merry Christmas, and for Christ's sake, please get that chip off your shoulders.

[StopTheMorans]

1. I agree; it's difficult to be "persecuted" when 90+ percent of the country

in which you claim to be "persecuted" believes in God :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

3. I hate to see it here on DU

freedom FROM religion should be respected also.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. Facts, schmacts. JEEBUS is all the facts I needs!

And the fossils WERE planted by the devil to test our faith so stop saying that! </boudelang>

[salvorhardin]

82. Odd that

I always thought the Bible was planted by god as a sort of inverse IQ test to determine which ones to let into heaver. :-)

[MissBrooks]

89. But.... devils advocate...

90% of the USA believe in God - however, they aren't allowed to celebrate a Christian Christmas. They are asked to celebrate a Secular Christmas with Santa instead of Jesus.

Religious intolerance of any kind is wrong. Let the Christians have their Jesus and for those of us who don't believe, we can have Santa or a spinning dreidel or whatever we choose.

My opinion...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

118. who exactly is stopping them from having a religious christmas?

far as i know they can still go to church, pray at home adn with their family/friends

[Dorian Gray]

131. While I don't fully agree that so many

Christians are whining on the DU pages (perhaps I miss a lot of the topics where it might happen), I also don't believe that we Christians are being forced to celebrate Christmas without God. I think that is a choice that many Christians make. So many choose not to go to church because they "don't have time" or "it's too crowded."

For me, reflecting on the miraculous birth of Christ is an important part of the day. So is giving presents. I really don't care about what I get, at all. I think that we can mix the secular with the religious, if that's what we choose to do. And I don't think that societ is really making it difficult for us to do that, either.

[MissBrooks]

132. God Bless You and Merry Christmas!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

134. Happy Holidays and Merry Festivus!

[plcdude]

2. Amen

Sister or I agree with you friend

[trumad]

8. It's the persecution wanna-be's

The wanna be persecuted just like their long haired hero...

[StopTheMorans]

13. they want "persecution-lite"

all of the martyrdom, with none of the associated hard work/pain :D

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. people LOVE feeling victimized

[PittPoliSci]

87. that's very true.

[WI_DEM]

5. What whiney christians on DU?

Most posts I see on Christianity on DU are quite secular in nature. I don't see any Christians on DU trying to ram their christianity down the throats of other DU members. I do see many, on the other hand, who belittle christianity or have the misguided belief that all christians must be fundamentalists. But I don't object to them either because as you say this is a discussion board and they are entitled to their opinions.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

12. I'm a Christan and you have to be BLIND not to notice all

the BS in GD about religion.

I forgot to mention the denial of evolutionary theory above.

[catbert836]

99. Try going to R&T forum and expressing your belief in Jesus Christ

The response, I assure you will be almost unanimous: FLAMING

[sniffa]

6. martyrs

i appreciate our new engLand cuLture - if you're reLigious, you keep it to yourseLf. if you're not reLigious, you keep it to yourseLf.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

9. That's why I love New England-the culture of MYOB

Mind Your Own Business. I know why I'll never leave when I see all the whininess in other parts of the country.

[sir_captain]

93. Another good point

The MA Puritans are certainly very misunderstood today, and IMHO, they would completely agree with you.

[Cobalt Violet]

31. Exactly.

I don't understand these people.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

43. i love that we're called snooty Yankees

we just DON'T CARE about your relationship with Jesus. I had a guy ask me this on a plane once. I said I don't ask about your bodily functions, please don't ask me about religion. It's personal.

I think that's why there's a more 'live and let live' attitude up here. People's personal beliefs and lifestyles are their own business.

[Jesus H. Christ]

10. Enough with this "put Christ back in Christmas" bullshit.

We need to stop beating around the bush with this crap. People who say this stuff are bigots. They don't want Christ in their Christmas, they are just upset that other people celebrate holidays differently than they do. No Christian and nobody but a bigot would be upset by other people saying "Happy Holidays."

[fudge stripe cookays]

28. Shouldn't that be...

"...don't want ME in their Christmas?" ;-)

Just checking.
FSC

[AgadorSparticus]

70. i'm getting that feeling too--that they are nothing more than neurotic

control freaks.

[Beware the Beast Man]

11. I think what it boils down to is that

those who are truly faithful beyond political boundaries feel as if they have nowhere to turn; their brand of Christiany does not gel with that of the "Religious Right," so they look for safe haven in a place like DU and don't necessarily find it here either. I'm not talking about contrarians and disruptors, either, but sincere folk that have more or less the same points of view politically, yet feel offended and obligated to defend their faith. And yes, I am projecting. :D

[Texasgal]

14. I agree!

But what I wanna know is WHY these religious posts are in the freakin' lounge??

[progmom]

15. I definitely agree with regards to a certain person we've PM'd about

And maybe one or two others I have seen today, but do we all piss you off?
I've felt the need to defend my faith one or two times today, and would hate to come across as whiny. It's such a difficult topic/difficult time right now.

You know you're my pal, so please understand that I mean this post to be in no way confrontational.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

20. No I understand

but I don't see nearly as many snarky posts from atheists, except surrounding evolution. And anyone who believes in the creation myth and vehemently denies evolution deserves a smack in the head.

[progmom]

22. I was at the zoo over the summer

...and spent an amazing half hour communicating with a female gorilla, and gotta tell you - I feel the same way. How could a person possibly deny the beauty of evolution?

This gorilla, btw, was amazing. I had my toddler with me, and she was cuddling with her baby. She brought him over to the glass where I was standing, kind of set him up next to her, nodded at him and then at my son, and put her hand up to the glass. I put my hand up to the glass where hers was, and we just stood there looking at each other.
Now maybe there's a gorilla expert here who will tell me that she was challenging me to a duel or something, but I looked into those eyes and saw beauty and wisdom and compassion and was blown away.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

24. I love apes

they're so smart! i love all animals, but you can really see the intelligence in the eyes of apes...

[fudge stripe cookays]

32. Wow....that's so COOL!

I love them. They're so majestic and beautiful. When I watch "Gorillas in the Mist" I always want to cry when they're all rolling around together and Sigourney really begins to communicate with them.

What an amazing story! Thanks for sharing! Gave me goosebumps!
FSC

[skygazer]

38. That just made me tingle all over

What a beautiful connection.

[Mad_Dem_X]

98. What a beautiful story!

Gorillas are fascinating creatures. I sometimes think it would be cool to do the Jane Goodall thing and go live with the gorillas somewhere for a while.

[RUDUing2]

16. simply a reaction to all the whiny atheist on DU and those that want

to paint all christians as either delusional or claim that fundies are what all christians are like...

TBH I have seen much more evidence of christian bashing on DU then I have of fundie christian beliefs, like the ones you highlighted...

There are going to be some dems who are fundie christians and believe the way you posted...but I really havent seen a wide spread amount of this on DU...but I have seen quite a bit of christian bashing and it does seem to be viewed as completely acceptable..or at least not many step in and call them out on their behavior...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. I see a lot more of the opposite around here. This is the reality-based

community. I have seen people arguing the creation myth vs. big bang and shoving religion down people's throats. The examples above show a definite persecution complex, or lack of a grasp on reality.

This is a political message board. Not a religious one.

BTW there is a DU group or two dedicated to religion.

[shrike]

127. Unfortunately, I've seen the opposite -- more whiny atheists

Like you, I think religion is a private matter. I also enjoy serious, respectful discussions on faith, the cosmos, etc. But you can't have them on DU because the usual suspects show up, not because they have anything interesting to add, but because they want to talk about Jeebus, et. al.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

130. The usual suspects DO show up

to argue for 'intelligent design' and other such nonsense. I see disrespec on both sides, but I see it more from those who call themselves Christians.

[shrike]

139. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

I see much more 'tude from atheists than Christians. Would be nice to have a calm discussion on religion, but that's just not going to happen on this board.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

42. I forgot-we never finished our discussion on how the Vatican

aided and abetted the Nazis during and after the war.

I remember you defended them based on individual acts of priests and nuns. There were individual acts, that is true. But from an institutional perspective, the Vatican did a lot to aid the Nazis. Whether it was laundering money and gold for Nazi war criminals (mostly Bavarian and Austrian CATHOLICS), supporting the Croatian Ustache (pro-Nazi Nationalist Croatians, also Catholic), or supporting anti-semitic edicts, the Vatican has a lot to answer for.

And BTW, the Nazis were Christians. "Gott Mit Uns".

[no name no slogan]

52. The Church also supported the Fascists in the Spanish Civil War

In fact, the church heirarchy (bishops and archbishops) were some of Franco's greatest allies in the Spanish Civil War. There were some Republican militias (usually Communist or Anarchist) who would often dig up the graves of martyrs at the cathedrals in the towns they captured, and put them on display for the common folk, to dispel the "mystery" of them.

Interestingly enough, many of the lower-level clergy (the rank-and-file priests and nuns) sided with the Republicans, even though the Republican coalition contained Communists, Socialists and Anarchists.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

53. Just like any institution-the nuns and priests were in contact

with the average folksm the bishops ensconced in Rome. And today the Church is covering up pedophilia.

[RUDUing2]

54. No actually I showed you some information about what the Vatican and the

Pope did...

the Vatican knew it was in a very tenuous position..and that they could achieve more through quiet means then by face to face confrontation.
There is plenty of evidence of Vatican behind the scenes working, and individual churches and priest doing the same to rescue jews...
There were bigots in the church that embraced the Nazi's, but there were others that didn't...
Schindler was viewed as a war criminal until evidence of how he worked quietly to rescue some jews while officially cooperating and even allowing other jews to be taken...but he is still considered a hero in Israel..

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/heroes.htm
...............But what of the official Church? In the past year there has been a fresh irruption of stories about the alleged inaction of the hierarchy, and especially the "silence" of Pope Pius XII, stories worse in some ways even than Rolf Hochhuth's scurrilous 1963 play, "The Deputy." Even The New Yorker, in its April 7, 1997 edition, printed an article that asserted Pius and the hierarchy turned their backs on the Jews; and journals such as The Catholic Times and The National Catholic Register (owned by the Legionaries of Christ) in reporting the progress of a document on the Holocaust being prepared by the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, treat the question as open.

Probably the most systematic and comprehensive study of the Pope's and the hierarchy's handling of the Holocaust is Pinchas Lapide's 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews. Lapide, an Israeli diplomat, was a member of the Palestinian Brigade that found many interned Jews in Italy at the end of World War II. After exhaustive research, Lapide concluded that at least 700,000 Jews, and more likely 860,000, owed their lives directly to the Church; he also concluded that Pius simply could not have done more than he did. The suggestion that Pius ought to have spoken more forcefully he treats with near derision; he quotes many Jewish leaders, many of them rescued by Catholics, to the effect that more forceful speeches would certainly not have caused the Nazis to moderate the persecutions, and would most probably have induced them to intensify them.

Not that the Pope was silent. As early as April 1935, as Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pacelli addressed 250,000 pilgrims at Lourdes: "These ideologues are in fact only miserable plagiarizers who dress up ancient error in new tinsel. It matters little whether they rally round the flag of the social revolution...or are possessed by the superstition of race and blood." He was responsible for the final wording of Pius XI's March 1937 encyclical, Mit brennender Sorge ("With burning sorrow"), and made it more strongly antiracist. The encyclical, the first ever written in German, was read in all German churches on Palm Sunday; the Nazi Foreign Office characterized it as "a call to battle…as it calls upon Catholic citizens to rebel against the authority of the Reich."2

In 1938 Italy passed its first anti-Jewish laws. Pius XI condemned them. He took action, as well. In January 1939 he asked the ambassadors to the Vatican to procure entry visas to their countries for German and Italian Jews. He also called a German bishop to Rome to plan a resettlement project in Sao Paulo. Presumably his Secretary of State was involved in these initiatives (General Ludendorf wrote: "Pacelli was the live spirit which stood behind all the anti-German activities of Rome's policy"3); but he would not be Secretary of State much longer. Pius XI died in February.

Cardinal Pacelli was elected as Pius XII in March. As one of the standard first steps in the persecution, Jews were now banned from the learned professions. The new Pope invited many to the Vatican and offered to help them to emigrate; many accepted, and Pius intervened with the diplomats of other countries to obtain entry visas for them.

Italy declared war on France on June 10, 1940. The Pope was determined to keep the Vatican neutral, and to make it a refuge. He brought the diplomats of nations at war with the Axis into the Papal Hospice of Santa Marta, close to the Holy Office and the German College. He assigned the Holy Office to develop its contacts throughout Europe into a chain of agents who would deal with intelligence, prisoners of war and refugees. One of the most fascinating rescuers of the war, Msgr. Hugh O'Flaherty, Primo Notario of the Holy Office, thus became involved early on in the Vatican's information-gathering and humanitarian activities—informally, also, as he lived in the German College, next door to the diplomats' new quarters.

Also during June, some 500 Jews left Bratislava on a small boat bound for Palestine. Four months later the boat tried to enter the harbor at Istanbul and was denied permission. An Italian patrol boat picked up the passengers and took them to a prison camp on Rhodes. Warned that they were to be handed over to the Germans, these Jews sent one of their number to Rome, where he obtained an audience with the Pope. Pius intervened with the Italian government and all 500 were interned in southern Calabria, where they survived the war.

Pinchas Lapide reports arriving at Ferramonti-Tarsia to find 3,200 Jews, mostly refugees from Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. "They had been not only saved by papal intervention but also fed, clad and looked after at Vatican expense by two papal emissaries who set up a kosher kitchen, organized a school for the children…."4

But do the Pope's efforts qualify him as a rescuer, as someone who risked his life to save Jews? In 1940 Martin Bormann prepared "Operation Pontiff" on Hitler's instructions. Pius was to be imprisoned in a monastery on the Wartburg. Lapide thinks it probable that Pius knew of the plan. If so, it did not deter him. As the Nazi persecution of the Jews intensified, and as it spread to the countries occupied by German forces, so did Vatican efforts at rescue and shelter. And Pius instructed the European hierarchy to follow his lead. "There is no doubt," says Leon Poliakov, a Jewish historian of the Holocaust, "that secret instructions went out from the Vatican urging the national churches to intervene in favor of the Jews by every possible means."5 ......................
(more is available by clicking on the link)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

56. Let's look at where your author is coming from

"Elizabeth Altham is a former corporate speech writer and a convert. Much of the research for this article was prepared by Jeffrey Rubin, former editor of Sursum Corda and a Jewish convert to the Catholic Church."

Believe what you want, but Pope Pius also helped launder gold and money for escaped Nazi war criminals who settled in Argenina and Brazil. Pius twice received Ante Pavelic, the Croatian Ustashe dictator, in 1941 and 1943, despite the fact that he had learned of the Ustashe regime's massacre of Jews, Gipsies and Orthodox Serbs.

The Vatican quarreled with both Hitler and Mussolini on race, but hardly out of concern for the welfare of Jews. Throughout this period the Church seldom opposed anti-Jewish persecutions and rarely denounced governments for discriminatory practices; when it did so, it usually admonished governments to act with "justice and charity", disapproving only of violent excesses or the most extravagant forms of oppression.

When mass killings began, the Vatican was extremely well informed through its own diplomatic channels and through a variety of other contacts. Church officials may have been the first to pass onto the Holy See sinister reports about the significance of deportation convoys in 1942, and they continued to receive the most detailed information about mass murder in the east. Despite numerous appeals, however, the Pope refused to issue explicit denunciations of the murder of Jews or call uponthe Nazis directly to stop the killing. Pius determinedly maintained his posture of neutrality anddeclined to associate himself with Allied declarations against Nazi war crimes.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/download/about_holocaust/christian_world/understanding.pdf

[RUDUing2]

57. are you also claiming that Pinchas Lapide is somehow unbelievable?

that is the main source I posted...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

59. That it was coming from a Jewish convert to the Catholic church

and the fact that most sources point to wrongdoing by the Vatican. There are many stories of heroism by individual priests, but the Vatican as a whole sided with fascism.

[RUDUing2]

60. it is coming from an orthodox jew who survived a concentration camp.

also Einstein praised the Vatican concerning WWII and according to these editorials written during WWII the Pope was not silent..

On Christmas Day, 1941, the New York Times, commenting on Pius XII’s Christmas Message, carried the following editorial:

The Pope’s Message

The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. The Pope reiterates what he has said before. In general, he repeats, although with greater definiteness, the five-point plan for peace which he first enunciated in his Christmas message after the war broke out in 1939. His program agrees in fundamentals with the Roosevelt-Churchill eight-point declaration. It calls for respect for treaties and the end of the possibility of aggression, equal treatment for minorities, freedom from religious persecution. It goes farther than the Atlantic Charter in advocating an end of all national monopolies of economic wealth, and so far as the eight points, which demands complete disarmament for Germany pending some future limitation of arms for all nations.

The Pontiff emphasized principles of international morality with which most men of good-will agree. He uttered the ideas a spiritual leader would be expected to express in time of war. Yet his words sound strange and bold in the Europe of today, and we comprehend the complete submergence and enslavement of great nations, the very sources of our civilization, as we realize that he is about the only ruler left o the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all. The last tiny islands of neutrality are so hemmed in and overshadowed by war and fear that no one but the Pope is still able to speak aloud in the name of the Prince of Peace. This is indeed a measure of the "moral devastation" he describes as the accompaniment of physical ruin and inconceivable human suffering.

In calling for a "real new order" based on "liberty, justice and love," to be attained only by a "return to social and international principles capable of creating a barrier against the abuse of liberty and the abuse of power," the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism. Recognizing that there is no road open to agreement between belligerents "whose reciprocal war aims and programs seem to be irreconcilable," he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace. "The new order which must arise out of this war," he asserted, "must be based on principles." And that implies only one end to the war.



On Christmas Day, 1942, the Times once again editorialized on the papal Christmas Message and again praised Pius XII for his moral leadership:

The Pope’s Verdict

No Christmas sermon reaches a larger congregation than the message Pope Pius XII addresses to a war-torn world at this season. This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent. The Pulpit whence he speaks is more than ever like the Rock on which the Church was founded, a tiny island lashed and surrounded by a sea of war. In these circumstances, in any circumstances, indeed, no one would expect the Pope to speak as a political leader, or a war leader, or in any other role than that of a preacher ordained to stand above the battle, tied impartially, as he says, to all people and willing to collaborate in any new order which will bring a just peace.

But just because the Pope speaks to and in some sense for all the peoples at war, the clear stand he takes on the fundamental issues of the conflict has greater weight and authority. When a leader bound impartially to nations on both sides condemns as heresy the new form of national state which subordinates everything to itself: when he declares that whoever wants peace must protect against "arbitrary attacks" the "juridical safety of individuals:" when he assails violent occupation of territory, the exile and persecution of human beings for no reason other than race or political opinion: when he says that people must fight for a just and decent peace, a "total peace" — the "impartial judgment" is like a verdict in a high court of justice.

Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were a lifeless thing.



***************
you might also check out these and more info including a couple of books written by jews at..
http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/framemain.htm

also http://www.pioxii.150m.com/enartic.htm

[Kathy in Cambridge]

61. And he is privy somehow to all the inner workings of the Vatican?

it's heartwarming that he forgave the Catholic church, but get real: the Vatican helped Nazis escape after the war. The Vatican did NOTHING to sop the genocide. And don't say they felt threatened. The majority of the SS was from Austria (100% Catholic) and Bavaria (100% Catholic). Do you really think devout Catholics would attack the Vatican?

[RUDUing2]

62. I added to my post above...and yes I do think Nazis would attack the

RCC...the SS were no longer *devout Catholics* they had replaced their worship of God w/Worship of Hitler..

[Kathy in Cambridge]

63. Gott Mit Uns on the belts of the SS

there was NOW WAY that they would have attacked the Church. And if you are using that to excuse the Vatican's actions AFTER THE WAR, how can you call yourself a Catholic? Even the priests and nuns that taught me KNEW about this ugly chapter in Catholic history. Why do you refuse to admit it?

[RUDUing2]

71. Hitler used religion to pacify the masses..but he replaced

the christian God w/a Nazi God...you can get some info on this at:
http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

Upon attaining office and enjoying a free hand, what line did Hitler take on religion and the Church? Five days after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Hitler allowed a sterilization law to pass, and had the Catholic Youth League disbanded (Shirer, The Rise). The latter was a measure applied to other youth organizations too, in order to free up young people to join the Hitler Youth. At the same time, Hitler also made an agreement with the Vatican to allow the Catholic Church to regulate its own affairs. (It is probably worth noting here the low value that Hitler placed on written agreements.) Parents were pressured to take their children out of religious schools. When the Church organized voluntary out-of-hours religious classes, the Nazi government responded by banning state-employed teachers from taking part. The Crucifix symbol was even at one point banned from classrooms in one particular jurisdiction, Oldenburg, in 1936, but the measure met with fierce public resistance and was rescinded. Hitler remained conscious of the affection for the Church felt in some quarters of Germany, particularly Bavaria. Later on, though, a wartime metal shortage was used as the excuse for melting church bells (Richard Grunberger, The Twelve Year Reich, Henry Holt, Henry Holt, 1979 and Richard Grunberger, A Social History of the Third Reich, Penguin, 1991).

Hitler’s references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an “Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge” (the phrase is Burleigh’s own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
(Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels.)

The SS were particularly anti-Christian, and officers and men were encouraged to leave the Church, although those that refused to renounce their Christian faith were not visibly punished, perhaps because their otherwise faithful adherence to SS codes of behaviour gave the lie to any claim of true Christian affiliation. The SS also brought in its own neo-pagan rituals for marriage ceremonies and baptisms.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

77. I don't have to follow links. I have books.

My undergraduate thesis was on Stalin's purges as genocide. My concentration was as an undergrad was in central and eastern europe, including russia and germany. I did a lot of research in graduate school into the Vatican's complicity in helping the Croatian Ustache, as well as their post-war activities helping Nazi war criminals escape to South America, and laundering Jewish money and gold for the Nazis. I am actually published, and you can go to a college library and probably find my research.

I could continue this conversation forever, but your are grasping at straws on the internet to prove your theories. Your knowledge is obviously limited to various google searches to support your theories.

But can I ask you WHY can't you admit that the Vatican helped aid escaping war criminals? Why, with overwhelming evidence, including many first person accounts by priests, can't you admit that the Vatican aided the Croatians, and chose to ignore the systematic slaughter of Jews?

Is it Christian hubris why you can't admit your Church was wrong? Do you defend the Spanish inquisition also?

[RUDUing2]

84. I admit when my church is wrong..but I also will defend her from

those who only look at part of the story. You may have published but your bias definately shows. You have reached a conclusion and have decided that yours is the only valid one.

I don't agree with your conclusion concerning the Vatican and WWII, there is also plenty of evidence on the other side...I think the Vatican did what it could and made hard choices in order to continue to be able to help some...they chose the good of the many over the good of the few...The Vatican is not perfect..but somehow it seems that to many (including many catholics) only perfection is accepted or allowable.

Congrats on being published..now maybe you could do some research on the other side of the story. The links I gave you provided some books, documents etc that would help in this area.

As for the SI, again there were two sides to the story..much evil was done, and much good was done...it is not (as is no part of the RCC) a black and white story made up of only good and evil.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

88. I have researched both sides of the story

It's funny that you would assume that I didn't because I hold a factual view of the Church. Even the Vatican apologized for its role during WWII. BTW I was raised in the '70s and '80s and was schooled by nuns and priests who helped the poor and went to Central America and preached liberation theology. They could see through the BS-why can't you?

When Carlos Menem, who was elected President of Argentina in 1992, opened his country’s secret archives,HARD EVIDENCE showed that the Catholic Church in Europe and in North and South America was complicit in planning and helping Nazis escape to South America. This backed up many other state and church documents, as well as survivor accounts of the Church's complicity.

If you're OK with letting mass murderers escape judgement, then you must be a very troubled individual. If you defend the Spanish inquisition-which is LAUGHABLE that you would say ANY good came of it-then no one can really help you. Maybe you should look to God for spiritual guidance, because you definitely need it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

144. You're gettin pretty personal there.

Who are you to judge someone's spirituality?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

147. Wouldn't you say someone who makes excuses for mass murderers

has spiritual issues? Did you read her comments? We're discussing the Holocaust and the Church's complicity. Was it OK that the Church laundered money for war criminals? Was it OK that they helped Nazis escape to Argentina?

Anyone who condones those actions should do a little reflecting. I don't know why you're so defensive. :shrug:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

148. Listen - I am a Catholic (devout and practicing) I do not, repeat DO NOT

deny the evils of my church. I stare them in the face and move in the direction of change (the best analogy I have is that America is not living up to its ideals because the heirarchy is corrupt - its the same with the Church) - so lets get that out of the way at the get go.

I am just saying - you were posting some well researched and heart felt stuff -- then you resorted to personal attack - that ain'tcool whether your published or not.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

149. Anyone who defends mass murderers

deserves what's coming to them. I have no patience for enablers. And not to be an asshole, why are you defending her?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

150. Listen to what I'm saying please - I am defending no one. I am simply

saying that you can make your point without telling someone to seek spiritual guidance - that's presumptuous and does not serve your aim of getting her to see your side of it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

152. And you are inserting yourself in this argument because?

:shrug:

You presume I need to be coached?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

153. Well you obviously can't handle any constructive criticism. Do whatever

you want.

Nice talking to you

[Kathy in Cambridge]

154. I can take criticism no problems

a message board is a flat format-you can't tell what someone's tone is by the words they write.

Just like someone prosletyzing religion at my doorstep, I find people inserting themselves in my discussion with someone else a bit impolite.

If we were the two people arguing points, it would be appropriate for you to take issue with my tone or attitude. Would I insert myself in an argument with you and your girlfriend? Nope.

That's all-Merry Christmas! :hi:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

157. Kathy - I hope we can have an amicable conversation one day.

I meant no disrespect.

Peace - truly.

[HEyHEY]

155. I presume you need to shut the hell up

Got ya!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

156. Right back at ya!

;-)

[gollygee]

There are tons of very nice, reasonable, easy to be around Christians

in the world.

But there are some who are amazingly arrogant. I wish the arrogant ones would STOP IT. It's fine to believe whatever you want. It's a beautiful thing. Have all the faith you want, and worship to your heart's content.

But please please please stop with the arrogance.

[progmom]

19. I love it.

Thanks!!

[Donkeyboy75]

23. That arrogance comes down on both sides.

Athiests can be impressively arrogant at DU. I'm an agnostic, so I don't have a dog in the fight.

[gollygee]

25. I agree with that

btw I'm an agnostic too.

I've been avoiding the creation vs. evolution stuff at GD.

[Jesus H. Christ]

34. Don't forget those arrogant cartographers.

Round earth! Yeah, right.

[gollygee]

39. Hmmm

It seems painfully obvious to me that evolution is right and creationism is wrong.

But I really don't care in the slightest what someone else believes. Flat earth or whatever.

My only concern is that my daughter doens't get taught garbage. If our school district tries teaching my daughter creationism, I'll move or homeschool.

[gollygee]

17. Dupe

Whoops. Duplicate.

[jonnyblitz]

18. and this is why you are one of my favorite DUers

GREAT POST!! :hug:

[UrbScotty]

26. Ask the authors of the First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF;...

We have a Constiutional right to express our religion.

Too many people, including my Great-Uncle Clarence, have sacrificed so much for us not to use these rights. One of the many ways I choose to honor their sacrifice is by using the Constitutional rights they have protected.

[Jesus H. Christ]

30. Yeah, and nobody's taking that away.

It's just that some Christians get upset that other people are struggling while they shove Christianity down other people's throats.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

35. No one is saying religious thoughts can't be expressed but

I came here for political discourse, not a Bible discussion group.

[UrbScotty]

46. Well then stay out of the religious discussions.

You wouldn't go inside a local church if you weren't a Christian, would you?

[Cobalt Violet]

48. Atheist are constantly under attack in these discussions.

So we have a right to defend ourselves.

[shrike]

129. No offense, but I rarely see atheists attacked on DU

It's usually the other way around.

If any atheists DO feel attacked, then I am very sorry. I do my damndest to be respectful others' beliefs, or lack of them. It'd be nice if everyone here just backed off for awhile -- maybe when Christmas is over, it'll settle down. Politically, we're all on the same side, and that's the important thing.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

50. That's a lame analogy.

This is a message board for Democrats and other progessives. This is not Chrisian discussion board.

[ekhunter]

136. don't participate in the religious threads if it bothers you so much

[Kathy in Cambridge]

137. Did you even read the original post?

People insert their religious beliefs in political discussions. Christians whine on this board about being persecuted. Please. Christians are the majority in his country, and control the discourse. BTW I AM Christian, in case you have reading comprehension issues.

Oh, and welcome to DU. I think. :eyes:

[ekhunter]

140. no i didn't, i probably should. i shouldn't comment when i'm

surfing the threads.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

If you did, you would realize I'm Christian

and that I take issue with the majority complaining about persecution, when there are religious and ethnic minorities that have it much worse than them.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

141. If you did, you would realize I'm Christian

and that I take issue with the majority complaining about persecution, when there are religious and ethnic minorities that have it much worse than them.

[Cobalt Violet]

37. Right and we have a constitutinal right...

when someone shoves it down our throats to puke it back up at them.
:puke:

[UrbScotty]

41. Who says we're shoving it down anyone's throats? (nt)

[Cobalt Violet]

49. I do.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

51. Examples above.

And many more...

[Dora]

40. "Exercise" is not the same as "Expression"

Practicing faith is very different from expressing it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. THANKYOU...I also am sick of people using the color of religion

to justify homophobia (aka discriminating against gay marriage). Jesus went everywhere with 12 men for Chirst's sake!

The Catholic church jumped on the anti-gay marriage bandwagon but seemed quite tolerant of pedophelia when covering up the crimes of priests who fingered alter boys.

[DS1]

29. STOP WHINING!

;-)

[ProfessorGAC]

33. Why Do You Hate The French?

Stop wining! I suppose i should stop dining, too! I don't understand your french bashing.

Hee Hee!
The Professor

[Wapsie B]

36. Some konservative xians

need to feel victimized nonstop in order to function. Look around you. These damn fools won the election but do you see any smiling faces amongst the holier than thou? I don't. It's a deep-seated self-hatred at work in their psyches. Take it from an angry Lutheran. I've been there and have relatives like this.

[hickman1937]

44. I've come to the conclusion

That they know in their hearts that they are wrong. They left Jesus to find security in their communities of hatred. It's an easy way to give their lives meaning. They are not Christians. They worship anger and hatred, and stink of self-righteousness.

[Wapsie B]

55. Yes.

They also have this lust for power that they've not had in their lives. Power over so many others through politics. They don't worship God. They worship power and control.

A very belated welcome to DU!

[hickman1937]

64. Thank you very much!

:hi:

[skygazer]

45. Well, I see a lot of angst on both sides of this

I understand why liberal Christians on this board sometimes feel a need to defend their faith - there are a lot of generalities and derogatory comments about Christians in general sometimes. I agree that all this media hubbub about "persecuted" Christians is ridiculous but I think there are very few people on this board who actually agree with that point of view anyway.

Most of the absurd posts you quote come from people I would qualify as disruptors but some of the responses often make broad generalizations that thoughtful liberal Christians here may feel the need to confront.

I am not a Christian myself. I consider myself an agnostic. However, I do respect others' religious beliefs and make an attempt not to color everyone with the same broad brush when dealing with these issues of religious extremism. I prefer to try tact and reason over attacks and sarcasm. And this is something both sides are guilty of.

The holidays bring with them a lot of stress that adds to the stress we all feel after the election. I think that's a big reason why some of us - and I include myself there because I'm not always reasonable, god (or whatever) knows - are blowing up when we might not otherwise.

In the immortal words of Rodney King - can't we all get along?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. Actually, many of the quotes come from DUers who've been here

2+ years and have thousands of posts, which is why the quotes are surprising.

[Misunderestimator]

58. Good post. And Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, etc. etc.

to you too... :hi:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

65. Nice to see you!

Happy holidays!

[MonkeyFunk]

66. *Many* Xtians can't function without acting persecuted.

My stepmom, for example, is always emailing me stupid shit about Xtians being stomped all over by the "wicked heathens of the ACLU". She was positively certain that the Roy Moore fiasco was a sure sign of the coming apocolypse. When I asked her to give me an example of how anyone was being denied the right to worship as they pleased, she couldn't do it.

The irony of my position (being an atheist, that is) is that I was something of a Xtian while I was growing up. I even went to a Southern Baptist college. After four years of listening to the hypocrites there, I discovered that I no longer wanted anything to do with them. I think I met only a handful of "godly" people there who actually earned my respect with regards to their faith. The rest were either hypocrites (preach at you one day, get caught drunk the next) or extreme nutjobs (seeing demons and the like). Screw 'em, I finally decided.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

67. I'm Catholic but my whole beef with the religiously delusional

is their inability to admit that their churches (Catholic or otherwise) have done ANYTHING wrong in the past. Up above, I was talking about the Vatican's complicity in the Holocaust, and how it aided escaping Nazis passages to Argentina. It's amazing that even with tons of evidence, that they can still deny it.

[JohnKleeb]

72. I am a big defender of the Catholic church on the boards but I will admit

The history of it is far from perfect though I will also say there's a lot of good in it too. Thanks for the PM and Merry Christmas. As I say below, I guess I am in the middle on this, I get upset at some of the stuff some people say but those citements you make above, I disagree with and as you say, the facts say other wise.

[MonkeyFunk]

76. Yeah, that's too typical of "organized" religion. Esp the Catholic church.

It's really odd, but I have more beefs with the Roman Catholic Church (historically) than with any other. That said, I tend to like people who are Catholic much better than I like followers of any other religion. Catholics tend to be more liberal, mostly. Even the conservative Catholics that I know would rather just leave you alone than bother you with their version of religion.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

78. Exactly-I like Catholics as well

I guess because I grew up surrounded by them :shrug:

Massachusetts is overwhelming Catholic and Jewish and we have a MYOB (mind your own business) policy. The protestants here (who are in the minoriy) tend to be the liberal (Unitarian, Congregational, Episcopal) also.

[JohnKleeb]

80. hey what happened to the pilgrims

:shrug: According to that site I found out the faith base of Va.
Religion

The religious affiliations of the people of Massachusetts are:

* Roman Catholic – 54%
* Protestant – 27%
* Other Christian – 1%
* Other Religions – 5% (Mostly Jewish)
* Non-Religious – 8%

The three largest Protestant denominations in Massachusetts are: Baptist (4% of total state population), Episcopalian (3%), Methodist & Congregationalist (tied 2%).

[JohnKleeb]

79. Thats possibly because the Catholic Church is the oldest christian

demonation. Remember, many of the protestant faiths are relatively new by 500 years I guess I could estimate, I believe Luther got his start with reformation around 500 years ago. I do see your point, I am a Catholic and there's history I have beef with like the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquistion. Yes, Catholics do tend to be more liberal in my observations too, I was talking with my 77 life long Catholic grandmother and she said she would be all for giving gays the same rights just not calling it marriage, now I know many of us including myself don't agree but that's a very progressive view coming from someone like her who is the embodiment of an American Catholic. I think Catholics tend to be a little more liberal than protestants is because Catholics were often discriminated against here in the US when they first came here whether from Ireland, Italy, one of the Slavic nations, or what have you.

[MonkeyFunk]

85. Yeah. That sounds about right.

As I look back in history, the RC church has done some very dodgy things in the name of perpetuating their own success. I'm sure that the same would have been true had the baptists been around for as long. Probably worse, for that matter.

[JohnKleeb]

86. Yeah I admit and I am often defending the church here on the boards

I don't like the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, how the Spaniards treated the natives in America, all that done in the name of the Catholic Church. Yeah the Baptists are a relatively new faith but you may be surprised to hear this, they have a really interesting history that I know of, I am not sure how they got their start exactly but I do know that a baptist minister or preacher in Canada is the man credited with being the father of the Canadian Universal Health Care System. I am not sure if the Baptists would be worse, but if they had been around for as long as the RC church, I think they would have done the same things or perhaps worse as you say.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

68. Can I get an amen, sister?

;)

I am confused about the sensitivity of some of the Christians on board, especially when many DUers go out of their way to distinguish between Christians and RW "christians".

Over the years on the board I've tried using references from RW Christians, to RW christians, to RW "christians" to CACs (crazy ass "christians") and any other host of names to try to distinguish between the nutters and the real deal Christians here, but some still feel the need to be hurt.

What can ya do? :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

69. I admit, I do get upset when people generalize christianity or catholicism

but those are some valid points.
Lemme see if I can give you my points on the examples you cite.
"Stealing Baby Jesus from a manger scene is a hate crime like painting a swatstika on a synagogue"
I would say that's more of a prank than anything, it's nothing like painting a swastika on a synagogue honest.

"Expressions of Christianity are being thwarted in the US by secular humanists"
I disagree, Christian symbols are still predominatly displayed in the US .

"The Ukrainian genocide was committed because the Soviets were atheists, and the Ukrainians were Christians."
I also believe that was because of old ethnic hatreds, I also believe that despite Stalin's Athiesm, many Soviets were still like many Russians who are members of the Eastern Orthodox church.

I am in the middle on this I guess, I can see why some people get upset on both sides honest, I don't believe I am persecuted but I do feel many don't understand why I believe what I believe. To be honest, I am a bigger minority in the state of Virginia as a Catholic than I am as a Catholic on DU, Virginia is 78% protestant and only 13% catholic.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

73. The Ukrainian genocide was ethnic and economic

Wow, that's quite a minority in VA-13%. Mustn't be too many Orthodox Xtians or Jews either!

[JohnKleeb]

75. Of course not

There's hardly any Eastern European influx around here though I do know a kid with Croatian blood. Not too many Jews either really, though interestingly enough, Virginia is the homestte of the only republican jew in the house of representives, Eric Cantor. Yep on the Ukrainian genocide, it really was an ethnic and economic thing I believe.

[sir_captain]

74. Good Stuff, Kathy!

:hi:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

81. Thanks-see all the exchanges here though

I am disappointed in many Christians on this board. :-(

[JohnKleeb]

83. sucks to see

but as always except in my politics when I am a partisan democrat, I am taking the middle ground on this as I do in just about everything. How about we all agree to this minor philosophy, here goes,
"There is good and bad in everything. Non-Christians and Christians can be good people and do great things in the name of what they believe in but Non-Christians and Christians can also be assholes and do terrible, unforgivable things in doing what they believe in."

[Hell Hath No Fury]

90. That is my personal philosophy!

There are only two kinds of people on this planet: assholes and non-assholes.

An asshole can be any color, religion, sex, ethnicity, sexuality, whatever.

And a non-asshole can be any color, religion, sex, ethnicity, sexuality, whatever.

It's really pretty simple. :)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

91. That's exactly right

and unfortunately, religious dogmatism tends to qualify a person for the asshole category.

[JohnKleeb]

94. heh yeah I think we're on the same page

yep assholes and non-assholes. You got an asshole like Pat Robertson who preaches hate in the name of the Baptist faith then you have a guy like the PM of Canada who was a Baptist minister who started their health care system.

[sir_captain]

92. Certainly true

the one thing I would add to that, however, is that more than 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christians of some sort, and about 75% of Americans believe in the virgin birth. With that in mind, whenever I see people complaining about anti-christian sentiment in the United States, it's hard not to roll my eyes. We live in by far the least secular first world nation in the world, and frankly, it's impossible to escape christian influence in this country, whether you believe it yourself or not.

[JohnKleeb]

95. The anti-Christian sentiment is blown out of proportion

While I admit people can be jerks to people who don't believe, Ive heard more about a christian vandalizing a person of a different faith's place of worship or an athiest's home than I have vice versa.

[sir_captain]

109. The really pernicious stuff

is from places like the FCC and right-wing shills who constantly talk about how liberals (and various code names for Jews) are anti-Christian.

[JohnKleeb]

110. Yeah they say Jews control everything

Thats a bunch of crap Ive always thought. If anyone rules America, its them Anglo Protestants.

[sir_captain]

111. Don't you know it...

damn anglos!

[JohnKleeb]

112. yeah damn WASPs, they rule everything

Really though, people always are like the Jews this and the Jews that, hah its just so funny to hear that coming from the people who really rule america, the Anglo-German Protestants.

[catbert836]

96. What is it with all the whiny atheists on DU?

I've found this is more a problem than "whiny Christians" as the atheists put it while they have a nice little conversation in the R&T forum (where this post belongs by the way) about how stupid religion is and how everyone should just shut up and agree w/ them. They also discuss the general mental instability of people who have religion in their lives.
I'm not so sure it's whiny Christians, its more like whiny atheists. I agree that religion should be kept out of politics, but that applies to both detractors as well as supporters. Also, there's more atheist DUers who will use the same logic and be just as intolerant of religions other than their as the Talibornagains that we all loathe.
</rant>

[jonnyblitz]

97. if you haven't noticed, the author of this thread and many posters

on her side are FELLOW CHRISTIANS.

[catbert836]

100. I know, I know.

I'm just pointing out that its mainly atheists, not Christians who are "whiny" and disrespect other's faith here on DU. Overall, atheists I think are good people. There's just some, like I said, who are just as bad as born-again Christians.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

102. It's actually mostly Christians here that are whiny

and have a persecution complex. This is a political forum, not a New Testament study group.

[catbert836]

103. Go to the R&T forum

and say you believe in Jesus. They'll teach you a lesson you won't forget.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

107. I don't go to the R&T Forum. I couldn't stand the whining there.

I have no patience for that shit when there are WAY WORSE VICTIMS OF PREJUDICE in this country than Christians.

[catbert836]

125. A quote

"I don't have to respect other people's faiths if I don't want to"
"It's okay for me to refer to religion as myth, I don't care if I insult people"

Both from atheists in the R&T forum. Let's face it, it dosn't matter who's the persecuted group or the persecutor. This being a political forum, like you said, Christians are in the minority here.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

126. Yes, I agree it goes both ways

a little respect from both sides is helpful, though.

[shrike]

128. I agree

and I'm married to an agnostic, have an agnostic stepdaughter. Neither are whiny, and both are happy to let me practice my faith.

[JohnKleeb]

101. hah heya

are you gonna counter protest bush come January 20th? If you've lost Zack's number, you can get it from me.

[jonnyblitz]

119. hey!

I have his number loaded in my cellphone. I am not sure if i can make it. so he will be there..and you too?

[JohnKleeb]

120. yes us two will be

You know LeftPeopleFinishFirst (Maggie), right who is friends with both of us? she's gonna be there too, and Beth who you met at the choice rally may be down there too, I dunno for certain though. Hope you can make it, if you want my cell number, wait I think you have it.

[slutticus]

104. RETAHDED

I see your Boston accent is quite thick :)


And Festivus is tomorrow! You aired your grievances one day too early!

[JohnKleeb]

105. hah I just noticed that

and before you know it, I may start sayign that, since I mimic people.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

106. I had to say that for emphasis-al la Saturday Night Live

Here are some wicked pissah .wav files

http://home.earthlink.net/~lnkn/accent.htm

[JohnKleeb]

108. heh you know the crusha theory?

heh Boondock Saints ref btw, one of my favorite movies to take place in Boston.

[democracyindanger]

113. This is the Lounge

where anything except sex threads are allowed. If somebody wants to whine about religion--or whine about the fact that religion is even a topic--that's perfectly fine, too.

Don't like it? There's this thing called "ignore"...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

114. I don't use the ignore function

because no one really annoys me all that much. It's just the stupidity of the assertion that Xtians are persecuted that annoys me.

[curse10]

115. I love ya Kathy!

:hug:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

116. Happy Holidays!

:hi:

[Mike Niendorff]

117. But, but, but ...

... Rush told me Christians are being persecuted in America, so it must be true! Don't you know that 'Happy Holidays' is really just secret code for 'I hate Jesus'? Oh, you don't know that? Well, you must be one of them then. You "Happy Holidays heathen", you!

</sarc>

(honestly: yes, your points are spot-on :) )


MDN

[Kathy in Cambridge]

121. Thanks-Happy Holidays!

:hi:

I don't feel persecuted at all as a Christian. I think a lot of people who do need a dose of lithium and a dose of reality!

[RetroLounge]

122. Nice thread. Thanks for this...

:hi:

RL

[Taverner]

123. I'd comment, but you said it all kathy!

Yes, yes and yes....

[Kathy in Cambridge]

124. Thanks!

:hi:

[JanMichael]

133. By God, this is a good post!

Thank you; my threads on myths don't seem to go anywhere!

Stephanie

[Kathy in Cambridge]

135. Happy Holidays, Stephanie!

the one in GD got locked (double post, but i thought I should bring the flame to the flamewar). GD is where most of the whining goes on.

[jonnyblitz]

151. this was the theme of the day yesterday.

you might have posted your myth threads when the theme was something else! :)

[bettyellen]

138. I totally agree Kathy - some people love feeling persecuted-

and all this xmas is too secular- i think they might feel a little guilt about it being to secular in their own lives, are hoping other xians will pick up the pace and somehow make it seem like it's all about faith for everyone. becasue in a large sense, it seems to be a lot about consumption and excess and if their kids weren't raised to be caring and generous as well as faithful, it can be an ugly little gimme fest (okay, so now i'm projecting about my nephews!!- and they are jewish- go figure- LOL!!!)
IMHO these people are the lazy asses who never lift a finger to help in soup kitchens or toy drives and never meet other people living their values +/or faith.
instead of that, they wanna see crosses on display in K mart. They want a big pretty shiny display alright, but just one that suits their taste.
Enjoy your holiday, Kath!

[Karenina]

142. Hey! Where's AKU???

:evilgrin:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

143. I posted a similar thread in GD that's now archived

and it's pretty damn frightening the responses I got! :scared:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2858862

[jonnyblitz]

145. wow that got archived fast!

:wow:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

146. It was degenerating into a flamefest

but I was disappointed that they archived that one-it had some interesting responses.