Question for those who believe in god(s)

[Modem Butterfly]

If you believe in a diety(ies), how on earth do you reconcile your belief with 100,000+ people killed in Sunday's tsunamis?

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Labor shortage at the Pearly Gates Wal-Mart robe supplier?

This should be interesting.

[Phentex]

3. I realize this is a completely serious subject...

but that answer made me laugh!

[tavalon]

89. Bless you

I'm sure as I read down further you will be flamed to a crisp but this is how the talking monkeys handle a tragedy like this. If we can joke, we are going to be ok. No, the people who died aren't ok and their families are not ok, but as a species we laugh to show were ok.

[AZCat]

2. Perhaps the deity(ies) are the old-school type

You know - pillars of salt, pillars of fire, floods, etc.

[Liberal Veteran]

5. Couldn't be Jehovah/Yahweh....

He promised that he wouldn't do the flood thing anymore.

[AZCat]

9. Ahhh, you know gods and promises...

They tell you one thing, and then they're off sculpting fjords while the world breaks apart behind them.

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Oh, come now! Every Douglas Adams fan knows Slartibartifast is...

...responsible for the fjords.

He won an award for them.

[AZCat]

17. But did he win...

a major award?

[Modem Butterfly]

6. Maybe it was the rage of the Deep Ones?

Or perhaps Cthulhu was hungry.

I guess I should specify omnipotent, benevolent gods.

:)

[AZCat]

8. Yeh - Cthulhu wouldn't even stop with 100K

That's just a warmup.


Uhh, I don't believe in omnipotent, benevolent gods. Perhaps that's the problem.

[jellybelly]

4. God is a 'universe' god

God doesn't protect or prevent disasters...it's too busy chatting up aliens and creating cool stars.

[trotsky]

7. I'll give you a couple of answers.

"God works in mysterious ways." or "God has to let these things happen to serve the greater good."

"The world is in an unsaved state, so we have to live with diseases and natural disasters."

[comsymp]

10. Not being snarky, but a question

Assuming that 1)there is a Divine Whatever, and 2)the Divine Plan says that all things die... how should they have gone?

Sounds kinda cold, but seriously. The horrible aspect in this, as I see it, is the overwhelming numbers, right? If that same 100K died over a year's period, nobody would even notice. Hell, how many ppl in the US die of cancer every year- more than 100K, right? This way, due to the enormity of the event, people are coming together somewhat. Maybe that's the point.

Just a thought.

[SmokingJacket]

60. Hideous suffering --

people living lives of normal length and dying of one of a handful of reasons (cancer, heart disease, stroke) is very sad, but it is not the same as what happened with the tsunami

Babies dragged from their mothers' arms, people searching for loved ones amid piles of rotting bodies in the mud...

sorry, not the same.

Until someome explains why God allows such tremendous human suffering (Holocaust, anyone?) I don't have any reason to believe in God, except as maybe some kind of natural force. Maybe.

Because if God knowingly allows it, why worship Him?

Just my HO.

[Modem Butterfly]

70. "Because if God knowingly allows it, why worship Him?"

Good question. If I die and find out that God did this, I'll kick him in the balls.

[DianeG5385]

73. I can't believe in a God who requires worship

Sounds like a creation of man if one is required to worship.

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Well Stated!

My take is that no omnipotent, omniscient God would have an ego that requires homage from puny humans. That's prima facie absurdity.
The Professor

[Modem Butterfly]

110. What he said

[ghostsofgiants]

84. HAHAHA!!!

That made my day.

[Sporadicus]

11. A 'Hands On'-Type Deity Wouldn't Have Let It Happen

or the bubonic plague in the middle ages or the holocaust or 20M Russian deaths in WW II or civilian deaths in Iraq.

A more 'involved' deity would smite Nero or Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot or *.

In the face of so much human misery going unanswered by divine intervention, it seems ludicrous to me that millions pray daily for the hand of God to come down and fix all their earthly problems.

I feel that - if there is a creative intelligence at work in the universe - it pays no more mind to the misery of individual human beings than I do to the mitochondrial death of a skin cell on my left buttock.

I also take exception to the argument some 'Christians' might make - that everything works for some greater, unseen good - that everything works out to fulfill 'God's plan.' I fail to see what 'higher purpose' could be fulfilled by allowing all the catastrophes we just described to occur unanswered.

[Blue-Jay]

12. I only believe in Gozer the Destroyer.

So the tsunami makes perfect sense to me.

[jonolover]

13. What do you mean?

Natural disasters is a "valid" thing and has nothing to do with religion - whatever religion it may be.

[Modem Butterfly]

21. Most religions worship dieties that don't want humans to suffer

Clearly there's a whole lot of people suffering in that part of the world, both the injured and the ones left behind.

[yardwork]

31. I don't know about "most religions" but my spiritual beliefs

are that the universe happens. Our job is to trot along trying to keep up with unfolding events and stay in harmony as much as possible.

Specifically, my belief in the Mother/Father/One is that She/He encompasses good and evil, light and dark, death and life.

In the midst of life we are in death. Death is an ending of one phase and the beginning of another phase.

Nobody ever promised us a rose garden. I pray for the grace to get along with as much dignity as possible.

Does that help answer your question?

[kick-ass-bob]

87. Do you attend any organized 'church'?

I do - and this follows along with what we believe.

Just curious.

[johnnie]

36. I bet you can find 100,000 people in America

....that are suffering for something at this moment.

[tavalon]

90. Many more than that I'm sure n/t

[Sperk]

14. if there is an afterlife....this life is temporary...if there is a heaven.

it's a wonderful place to be...so the sadness is for the ones left behind that will miss their loved ones....but in the whole scheme of things...eternity....even that horrible time of longing is but a blink of an eye.

Not to be disrepectful to anyone who's lost a love one...but true believers believe that dying is the best thing that will ever happen to you. This life is the illusion and dying is just a soul going home.

but who really knows?

[Modem Butterfly]

19. Then why is the avoidance of death nearly universal, even among believers?

[Shakespeare]

20. I think that's basic biology.

I think we're hard-wired to want to live, just like every other critter out there. And I think that's the case no matter what one believes about God or an afterlife.

[Modem Butterfly]

22. So do I. But that's just it:

If dying and going to heaven is such a great thing, why would we be "designed" to avoid death?

[AZCat]

24. God loves us

But that doesn't mean that God wants to spend every holiday from now to eternity with us.

Even God wants a little time on God's own. There's puttering to be done around the Horsehead Nebula.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. God loves us, so he drowns our children and loved ones horribly.

That doesn't make sense.

[AZCat]

29. Maybe God hasn't got the hang of showing love down

Some people find it difficult to show love properly. Perhaps God is no different. :shrug:



Note: I am being flippant. If you are looking for serious answers, I will shut up, but the Lounge probably isn't the place to go for that.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. LOL!

That's as good an answer as any. I've often thought that if there were a god s/he/it/they would be a total psychopath.

[AZCat]

33. Being immortal can do that to you

See the Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged case (there's a thread here on him even).

[tavalon]

92. George Bush is a psychopath

Diety is something else entirely. But, now were getting into an area that can't be intellectualized, it's all in the area of personal experience.

[Cadence]

69. Well I understand your line of questioning.

Believe me, do I understand. But I don't know if I look at it like "God did it to them". Tsunami's are a product of nature...we have this documented that underwater earthquakes cause them and earthquakes are a fact of life on this planet....but even knowing the risks we build cities along the coasts where this is a possibility. So we put ourselves in harms way sometimes because we like different aspects of geography. So are we saying God shouldn't have invented Tsunami's or earthquakes because then we can't live in coastal areas?
Then if we know about them and still choose to live there when they happen, God must have wanted us dead?
I wish all of those people were still here and that their loved ones weren't having to experience this tremendous grief, but I don't think God did it to them.

[Shakespeare]

25. I guess it depends on how you "see" God.

For the fundies (of the Christian and Muslim persuasion), the afterlife is allegedly to be greatly anticipated. I, on the other hand, thing we're intended to enjoy THIS life and live it to the fullest before we move on to whatever awaits us after death.

I may not be the best person to ask about this, because I don't have a conventional "pearly gates" view of heaven--I think it's something quite outside human comprehension, and is probably more like an evolution of energy, or whatever our inner spark is.

[JVS]

37. Perhaps it is our innate disobedience

[Modem Butterfly]

65. Disobedience to what though?

And how does that account for the less disobedient suffering along with the very disobedient?

[JVS]

77. I'm not going to tell you because you will merely use it as another...

opportunity to blaspheme, and I'd prefer not to assist you with that.

[tavalon]

93. Wow, I like my God much more

than the one you describe. You can have yours, I'll keep mine.

[Modem Butterfly]

104. Are you for real?

Or is this some kind of goof?

[jonolover]

48. But you can't just go to heaven for free.

You will only go to heaven if you do your karma, and do it right. Only then you'll be free from the cycles of life and death (i.e go to heaven). If you haven't finished your karma in this life somehow, you will be re-born on earth as some other person (with the same soul though), and work to finish your karma.
Just as there are deities who do not want humans to suffer, there are deities (demons) who want humans to suffer. So, just to provide an explanation for your claim, this could be the work of the demons.

[Modem Butterfly]

64. Hmmmm... an interesting take

Do you, personally believe that humans can come back as so-called "lower" animals? And as part of this system, do you consider any beings worthy of worship?

[Sperk]

72. first because it's a BELIEF not a KNOWN.....there are things we

know we know...things we know we don't know...oh, never mind.

Also, everyone has an incredible will to live...built in...maybe it's there for a reason.

[tavalon]

91. Fear of the unknown, I think

I've had a near death experience and while mine doesn't match the familiar description, the aftermath does. I want to live but dying doesn't scare me anymore. I find life to be incredibly precious and dying to be just another part of this amazing journey.

[Modem Butterfly]

108. I drowned when I was a kid

No pulse, no breathing, the whole nine yards. But I didn't see anything. However, I can tell you that there is a certain euphoria that comes with drowning- I suppose it's from the lack of oxygen.

[Hillary08]

100. Fear of the unknown

The first time I dove into a pool I was scared. Even though my big sister did it first.

I think it is the same with death. We know what life is (sort of). We don't really know much about what's next.

[DianeG5385]

74. The thought of an eternal afterlife to me, sounds like hell

I am much more interested in getting this life right, then if theres another, I'll look at it as a bonus. Focusing on an afterlife is like relinquishing all resposnibility for the destruction on this planet. Those who support this Iraq war may be end-timers but they may be in for a shock if there is a second coming.

[Modem Butterfly]

111. Very well said

[arwalden]

16. If Anyone Ever Needed Proof That There Is NO GOD... This Is It!!

[Blue-Jay]

18. God *told* me that you'd say that.

[jonnyblitz]

42. "he works in mysterious ways" arwalden, don't you know?

this is apparently the same god that wants us to embrace our enemies and not "dance on graves". he must be off his meds.

[jonolover]

49. Who told you that God is only good?

There are good Gods, and there are bad Gods.

[tavalon]

94. Ouch, it sounds like there is a lot of pain behind that

and I'm sure there are millions of people on the other side of the world struggling with that right now. This is a sad time.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. i dont believe in God...

but from speaking to believers...

A) we dont know why? and dont question god...there is probably a good reason...but I as a human do not know it and do not need to know it

B) god does not micromanage

C) a lot of hindus believe that children who die young are lucky..that their sins were small in their past lives... and they are done paying for it


D) god also does wonderful things. there has to be death else we would all overpopulate and die anyway

[Beware the Beast Man]

26. It all depends. What kind of answer are you fishing for?

No one knows why, and unless your some kind of dolt like Falwell or Robertson, it's not our place to claim to know why God does certain things.

[Modem Butterfly]

28. I'm not really "fishing" for an answer

Just looking to read some theists' thoughts.

[Beware the Beast Man]

32. Divine Punishment for wickedness is so Old Testament.

As a believer in a higher power, I honestly cannot say why, other than the universe works in a cause and effect relationship. Perhaps some series of greater goods can come out of this, or maybe not. :shrug:

[johnnie]

34. I can't give you my whole belief on it but I will share some of them

First, God, or whatever higher deity there is, is not an existence to keep us all alive in a human body forever. The person we are is the soul or spirit and and not the skin and guts. If God was to keep us all happy and free from any suffering or pain there would be no purpose to life at all.
I believe that we are here time and time again to grow as an entity and without suffering there is no growth. The ego has a way of making us want everything in our life perfect and to have nothing go wrong. There would be no purpose to exist if we all sat around and were just happy because nothing would be there to bother us.
We would have no bills, no conflict with each other, no hunger, no hangnails, no heartburn, no canned ravioli and anything else that would make us uncomfortable or uneasy. Then we would all be sitting around for hundreds of years with nothing to do but sitting around smiling at each other.
I have heard the "no god" thing be said from a child losing their goldfish to this tragedy that happened in the tsunami. If it was up to God or a god to keep every human being in pure ecstasy we would all be bored to death.
I believe that this human experience is one of many and we are all conditioned to believe that everything has to live on this earth forever or there is no God.
I can say that I have had people die in my life and I will have many more and yes...I was saddened. But I also truly believe how I believe and the pain of losing someone isn't as difficult as it once was.
I am all for everyone believing what they want to believe and if it helps each person to be happy in the way the believe than that's what it is all about.
God, in my belief is not some old man that sits around in the sky and watches us "down" here on earth. My concept of a god is many energies of different levels that have a core, but is connected to everything. It is a lot more complicated in my mind than there is enough room on this site to write about it.
The tragedy of losing 100,000 people in a natural disaster is not a wonderful thing, but it isn't the end of the world. It is many many people suffering at one time as much as one person will suffer in the next few minutes for their own loss.
I know some of you will laugh at what I write, but this is how I believe. I really don't concern myself with people who think I'm whacked...I know I am.

[Beware the Beast Man]

35. Actually, that was very well-put.

[johnnie]

45. Thank you n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

38. So we're created to suffer.

Yikes.

[johnnie]

44. Basically...yes

But it is up to each person to adjust to how much they want to suffer. I have seen people who are born without limbs, terminal illnesses and other truly sad situations that live their life with pure happiness and a wonderful outlook on the life they have been given. I have also seen people who think it is the end of the world because they broke up with their boyfriend or girlfriend that they have been "dating" for a half a year.

[Modem Butterfly]

59. So God = cosmic sadist

Instead of sitting around happy all the time, we are sitting around, suffering all the time. This causes growth, which makes suffering a virtue. Some of us are better than others at overcoming this suffering, or at least appearing to overcome this suffering. But in the end, it all suits the whim of whatever created us to suffer in the first place.

I say again, yikes!

[johnnie]

71. Not really

I know I don't suffer 24/7.

[tavalon]

98. You're missing the part where you choose

how you handle what comes to you and at you in life.

Let me give you an example from my life. Same story, two wholly different points of view:

My father never wanted children and he left my mother when I was five because of that and because he was sleeping with her best friend. When I was eight, my mother died and my father kidnapped me from my grandparents because he wanted my survivors benefits. He and my stepmother brutalized me emotionally and physically and when my father decided to add in sexually, I ran away from home. My grandparents took me in though they were much too old to handle a teenager and I was left on my own most of the time. I married young and went unconscious mentally followed in my thirties by a complete mental breakdown followed by seven years of therapy and much agony (equal I'm sure to the amount of unconsciousness I indulged in through my twenties).

Or:
I was given so many trying and yet strengthening experiences in my life that I am now the strongest, most levelheaded person I know. I am a nurse and I take care of laboring mothers and their newborns, a blessed work if ever there were one. I have a life that amazes me in its beauty each and every day and I know that much of that can be laid at the doorstep of each and every difficult experience I had. I love deeply and well and I live authentically, even though I still often have to make difficult decisions. I am happy and peaceful and very alive. I don't think I would be were it not for everything I went through.

Same life. Different choices in how to live it. Even now, I have physical challenges that could be viewed as suffering but I am not suffering, I am living and I am living well.

And if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, that would be perfectly fine. Do I want that? Hell no, this life is far too interesting. But its ok if it happens. If I was one of those people who got washed away, it would be fine. I have a large chosen family who would grieve, but I hope they would see that I lived well and my death was therefore not untimely, just part of the process.

[Modem Butterfly]

103. I think you're talking about something different

My "sticking point", so to speak, isn't the human capacity to adapt to difficult circumstances, rather that the point of existance is to have difficult circumstances.

[tavalon]

114. I probably didn't directly speak to that

because I don't entirely buy that one. I think one of the bigger points is to learn. If the only way that we can learn is to get smacked over the head, then ok. But I believe that many humans can learn through other means. I think my analogy of the big God/little God is closer to my personal belief system.

[tavalon]

97. We're created to Be

How we arrange that "Being" is our business. I think each one of us has a little spark of God essence which most of us allow to decay. I kind of see it as an alliance between big God (Diety of one's understanding) and little God (humans). Big God gives us what we need and then sends us off on the school bus of life. I even believe that we help decide what we need, whether those needs are wonderful things or challenges. I also believe that when a baby dies, it had already chosen to have an abbreviated life to help another, possibly its mother so that she can learn the most exquisite of pain and learn that she can endure and then she can go on to be an even more loving person or ?????? This is all speculation, just like everything that's been said tonight. It's my way of making sense of it all. Having had a personal experience of Diety, all I can say is (from my perspective- everyone's maya may vary) is that it is pure benevolence and completely inscrutable.

[jjmalonejr]

40. Yes, johnnie, that was well put.

[johnnie]

46. Thank you n/t

[tavalon]

95. Nope, no laughing here

That was good.

[BeTheChange]

39. Here is my take on it.

God gave us free will. We have all the ability in the world to rape the planet or do so much evil it takes shape. God doesnt mess around in the affairs of the worldly.

What he cares about are spiritual affairs. For me, I look at all the people who died and my heart physically pains. I pray that they did not have painful deaths and I pray that that they had peace even if just in the brief moment before they died.

I pray that they let God speak to them through nature, it doesnt have to be the one in my Bible. I dont pretend to know if there are multiple paths to God or not. I just found the one that speaks to me and follow it the best I can. I hope they found the ones that spoke to them. I hope that the Divine spoke to them through the awesomeness of the world and humanity.

And I cry and know that this life is but an instant and I should be doing more with it.

[Modem Butterfly]

66. I believe we imbue life with our own meaning

What do you feel is stopping you from doing more with your life?

[BeTheChange]

68. My Apathy...

Nothing like a tsunami to wake you up :)

[txaslftist]

119. So exactly right.

[tjdee]

41. People shouldn't die or be killed or else there isn't a God?

God/gods aren't fake happy (or angry, depending) genies.

Bad things happen.

on edit: change my answer to johnnies!

[jandrok]

43. Much like the Taoist concept....

...that the Tao that can be conceived of is not the true Tao....we are finite minds trying to comprehend the infinite, and thus we will never truly understand the workings of the Universe. We are limited by our senses and our preconceived notions of God. To truly understand is to leave all of the trappings behind, ego, self, etc.

Events such as this neither disprove nor prove the existence of diety. They simply are. It's a bigger concept than looking at it in terms of divine punishment or neglect.

Perhaps the essence of diety can be found in how we REACT to events like this, rather than in wondering WHY they happened?

[tavalon]

101. Also well said!

To the newbies here at DU who've been adding so much to this conversation.

Welcome! :hi:

[supernova]

47. For me it's more

that God created the world, including plate tectonics and earthquakes. The earth is partly also a living organism, maybe not in the same sense that we creatures are "alive", but active nonetheless.

I sort of follow the Enlightenment concept of God as cosmic Watchmaker, setting the universe in motion and letting it do its thing. Unfortunately, that includes having earthquakes and other natural disasters.

For us that means living in an environment in which we have to change, adapt and, most importantly, grow. I feel immense sorrow at this tragedy and weep for the victims. The enormity of it is, well, biblical. Do you suppose we will be singing epic songs of the great Tsunami of 2004 in 3004?

[paula777]

50. I think there have been 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed since we invaded

I'm not certain of the number, but I think that's what I read. That's just as fucked up as the tsunami numbers

[BeTheChange]

54. It's not a contest. nt

[paula777]

55. I'm very aware of that nebbish

[qnr]

51. Had a comment, but then remembered I don't believe in God, so I

decided it wasn't appropriate to post :)

[Taverner]

52. God the watchmaker

I'm more of a Deist - God creates then goes off to create other things. Whether or not we believe in him, etc, makes no difference to him. Occasionally he sends down a message (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc) to tell us to stop being such fuckwads. Sometimes we listen, sometimes we don't.

I also beleive we are animals, and like any animal, nature has to remind us that it can obliterate us on a whim. Cruel, yes, but that's the world.

You can go at any time without warning or reason.

[Wapsie B]

80. Yes.

I'm a Deist as well in the fact that I believe a divine being created this, even taking into account the big bang thingy. Call that divine being God, Allah, Yahweh, Hank, whatever. He does not take an active roll in what happens here. He created this and it's up to us to deal with what happens on this earth, good or bad.

[Solon]

53. Well, I'll try to be serious here...

Since I'm a polytheist, its probably a little easier to justify, who knows, I'll try. For one, not all Gods are benevolent, for two, not all Gods are Omnipotent, in fact I would say none of them are, its a logical inconsistancy. For three, to intervene in lets say the recent Earthquake and Tsunami disasters, if it was even possible, would have possibly have even more dire consequences. The energy has been building under the crust for awhile, and so had to be released somewhere, but would it have been better somewhere else? Possibly, and if the Gods chose to lets say, prevent any Earthquakes, how would the Earth respond? Imagine the pressure building from that scenario. But this is all assuming that any Gods even have power over Earthquakes, and I don't really think they micromanage to that extent, and may not have the power to anyways. OK, that's it.

[Modem Butterfly]

61. Okay, that makes sense

I never could get that bit about a single diety being both omipotent and omniscient. Talk about a contradiction!

[Raenelle]

56. I have a metaphor that satisfies my need for an explantion

The metaphor--I have 5 cats, and I love them as purely and selflessly and completely as I'm capable of loving anything. Every couple of years they have to go to the dentist. To have their teeth cleaned, they need to be deprived of food, then put under, then sometimes they have their teeth pulled and need little kitty pain pills because the pain is so intense. All that involves a lot of pain and fear for them, and there is no way, ever, that they could possibly understand that what is happening to them is being done completely 100% out of love and for their own good. It's not a punishment. I'm not hurting one cat so the other can learn from his example. In the long run, the quality of their life is better if their teeth are in good shape. Period.

But, they have little cat brains, and they are constitutionally incapable of ever understanding the why of the whole experience. They don't hold it against me, they still trust me, but they will never understand why.

That's my metaphor. I figure, while I'm very, very, very smart, the universe is a lot bigger than that, and perhaps there are things outside of my 4-dimensional thinking that I can't get, but that nonetheless have their place in a benevolent universe.

[AlienGirl]

57. God can be any two of the following:

Omnipotent, omniscient, or omnibenevolent. I pick the last two: God doesn't have the power to affect the physical world anymore, but he/she is still all-knowing and all-good. Imagine being in a prison, with nothing in your cell but a phone with only one line, and every day the guards torture you, but every night you can call a friend in the big outside world and tell him about it, and he empathizes but can't get you out; but someday, when you're let out, your friend can take care of you and heal you. God is like that friend on the outside of the prison that is Time. God couldn't stop the tsunami, but he/she is listening about it.

Tucker

[Modem Butterfly]

62. So do you worship that god?

If God is all-knowing and all-loving, but basically ineffectual, do you worship God? And how did God come to be ineffectual?

[AlienGirl]

81. How do you define "worship"?

[Modem Butterfly]

106. Good question

Thanking, praising, asking for blessings, and recommending to your friends and acquaintences would be examples, I suppose.

[AlienGirl]

58. Maybe it's all part of the game

I have often wondered if "living" is just a massive multi-user RPG that we--as spirits--are playing. In that case, a lot of people lost their XP, but their players will roll up new characters soon...and God, the GM, is currently in the kitchen looking for more Chee-Tos.

Tucker

[Modem Butterfly]

63. So God is a pasty-faced boy and we're all victims of multi-sided dice

Now that's original. Probably the scariest thing I've read in a while, but very original!

Strike the scary part- it does make a certain sense. Did you ever see that STNG episode where they use the holodeck to create just such a reality for a sentient hologram? It ends with one of the characters theorizing that they are all in a big box in someone's living room.

[barb162]

67. Something had to create the universe I think. Planets can be

colliding and killing billions of creatures in the universe right now. On the scale of the universe, this is not even a blip. If the earth were destroyed this second it wouldn't even be a blip

[DianeG5385]

75. The concept of Infinity - The only reason I could believe

in a spirit in the sky and I don't, although thinking about infinity and death used to scare the crap out of me as a kid and believing in God was so much easier on the psyche. I decided many years ago to deal with that and enjoy the mystical beauty of this planet and make this life as good as possible because after that in all honesty, none of has a clue! I'll leave belief in God to others as I figure if I live my life by good principles I have a good chance at the whatever there is that may be!

[Darranar]

76. I'm not a believer, but here's a possible answer...

God does not want robots. He/She/It grants us free will, the ability to control our destiny somewhat both individually and collectively.

God did not create the world to be a utopia. That would be forcing humankind's destiny, choosing our future for us. Instead, He/She/It put both good and evil into the world - the ability to choose right or wrong. Actions have consequences, collective and individual. In this case, the collective action of humanity - letting millions live in horrible conditions without proper safety measures - resulted in massive destruction, homelessness, and death. The relief efforts, however, are an example of people choosing good, and so we have something of a counter.

If choosing evil does not result in evil, what kind of choice is it?

[LeftyMom]

78. Death happens

The fact that so many people bought the farm at once instead of doing so in the more usual pattern really doesn't chance my spiritual views. Death is a part of life. Sometimes the Earth is good to us and the harvest is good or the weather is nice, and sometimes it isn't so good and an earthquake flattens a double decker freeway or causes a tsunami that floods millions of homes and washes untold numbers of people away.

So while I believe in something (my belief system is sorta complicated and really outside the topic of this thread) I don't really believe that any deity is responsible for preventing plate tectonics, or that failure to do so is cause for atheism.

[Floogeldy]

79. How do you reconcile your non-belief in god with the belief . . .

. . . that god would not kill 100,000 people with tsunamis?

[Modem Butterfly]

82. I don't

One can't lack beleif in diety while simultaneously believing that diety would or would not do something.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

83. Same way I do with any natural disaster - they are with God now

thats a hopeful thing.

[dr.strangelove]

85. An answer from an atheist.

I asked the same question after a quake killed thousands in Mexico while I was down there on a business trip. A religious co-worker made a comment that made some sense to me. Since I don;t share her beliefs, I may not present her view as well, but I'll give it a go here:

She believes that events like natural disasters, the Holocaust and mass murders are simply not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. As finite creatures, we value life and pain significantly. However, once you achieve "heaven" and you become an immortal soul who feels no pain forever, the few millisecond of pain caused by an event like this is like stepping on a tack. A little bit of pain for a brief period that you forget almost the minute it is over. If you believe in eternal life, the 70 or so years the average person lives on earth is but a few seconds. The pain we feel when a child is ripped from a mother's arm by a storm is simply nothing significant when that child and mother are reunited in heaven for eternal joy and love. After thousands of millennium together, that one day and the years of pain after it are simply not a big deal.

While I don't believe, this made some sense to me. If I was a believer, I could rationalize human suffering if I believed it was just a bump in a much happier existence.

[Rabrrrrrr]

86. People die all the time

Something on the order of 150,000 (+/-10,000) people around the world die every day.

Why give more theological importance to the lives of the people who died in the tsunamis as opposed to those that died in car crashes, boat crashes, from cancer or AIDS, accidents, malaria, war, criminal activity, SIDS, malnutrition, etc.?

The death toll in Indonesia and environs is, yes, truly tragic. But in the grand scheme of things, at least in terms of death, it's not much more than a somewhat interesting statistical momentary spike in the daily death rate.

If you're going to use this situation as an argument against the existence of God, you would do better to ask "Why do 145,000 people die every day?" instead of focusing on this one natural disaster, which is all it is - a natural disaster. These things happen. The earth is alive and always moving and belching and breaking and reforming.

The fact that so many deaths are statistically huddled in one area, so we can see them all at once, doesn't make them necessarily any more significant than the other ~750,000 people who have died this week.

[Modem Butterfly]

105. Sounds like a good excuse for apathy

I'm not saying you're apathetic, but the idea that "people will always suffer from something and there's nothing you can do about it," sounds like the perfect excuse to me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

121. So?

If it's true, it's true. There is no shame or immorality in speaking the truth, even if others might take it the wrong way or use it for evil purposes.

The point of my post, which you would have realized had you bothered with it, is that 145,000 people (on average) die EVERY DAY; and thus, I asked, why bother with your particular theological question just because 100,000 died? If the deaths bother you that much, then where is your outrage and/or your empathy and/or your theological questioning for the 145,000?

Why does 100,000 dying from a tsunami need to raise any more theological inquiry than the 145,000 who are already dead?

Either you accept that God allows death, or you don't. And if you are willing to accept that people die, than you have to accept the idea that sometimes they're gonna die in large numbers because of natural disaster.

And no, that isn't apathy. It's a fact. Should we try to lessen the amount to whom that might happen? Sure. Should we help out when it happens? Absolutely. But you can't control nature totally. People are always gonna die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, tornados, lightning, rock falls, etc. The Earth is a living, breathing thing; it farts and belches and moves around, and unlike us, when it farts and belches it does it 10 orders of magnitude (or more) more than we do.

And, some day, the earth itself will die and fall into the sun or other stellar body and be completely destroyed.

[tavalon]

88. Each and every one of these people was special

to themselves and to their friends and family. However, on the global scale, we are ants and Gaia heaves and spits and many of the ants die. So I can simultaneously hold that each person, myself included, is profoundly important and yet wholly insignificant. My God/dess doesn't pick and choose who is good and bad. It is up to each of us to nurture our souls and others as well, knowing full well that the end of our lives could be the next second or 40 years from now. This is not a punishment from God anymore than the Twin Towers was a punishment from God. Life is precarious and precious. I suspect it couldn't be one without the other.

Does that help at all?

[ALago1]

96. A fellow from the planet Tralfamadore told me the following...

The folks who were tragically killed in the Tsunami were certainly in bad shape at that particular moment. However, there are many other moments in which those people were, and still are, perfectly fine. They were just liberated from their constrictive human perspective of space and time. In fact, one may now say they have become unstuck in time.

[gtp1976]

99. Shit Happens? :-) n/t

[ZenLefty]

107. I'm not sure I understand the question.

I don't believe in any gods, but is the existence of god(s) supposed to preclude death or suffering? I certainly don't think so. If there are god(s), their benefience does not extend to making life strawberries and rainbows for everyone. A brief perusal of history can show us that. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the question.

EDIT: I'm not telling you why I edited my post. :P

[Modem Butterfly]

112. I was thinking along the lines of those who belief in a benevolent diety

I should have stated my question more clearly: for those who believe in a benevolent, omnipotent diety, i.e., one who would be inclined and capable of preventing human suffering. Of course, then we get into the sticky question of "inclined"...

[ZenLefty]

115. Okay. I see.

I think it can be said that even an omnipotent deity who wishes no suffering for humankind, would want people to find the path to non-suffering themselves, and find a way to reconcile themselves and be at peaceful harmony with nature, however terrible and tragic, by looking within themselves for the source of suffering. If you direct people along the path to bliss, will they truly be blissful? Or is it better for them to find the path themselves?

I think these funny thoughts; must be why they call me a Buddhist. O8)

[RUDUing2]

109. because I don't believe in a God who micromanages..also because

death is a part of life..all people will die someday/sometime..it gets your attention when it happens all at once..but it is just part of life.

[Modem Butterfly]

113. That's cold.

I'm sure you don't intend it to be, but that's pretty cold.

[RUDUing2]

116. no its realistic..thousands die everyday...but thousands are born everyday

death is another part of life..why should we be angry at God or question Him because people die? We can mourn those deaths, we can work to prevent tragedies, we can work after disasters to care for the still living. But we also need to remember that death is just a natural consequence of life.

[tjwash]

117. It's the earth.

Giving us a friendly reminder that it can shake us off like a bad case of fleas anytime it wants.

[yvr girl]

118. Because the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike

Bad things happen to good people. Horrible people go unpunished. We live in an imperfect world.

We were not promised a life without suffering, I know personally, suffering has taught me a lot more than good times.

Most suffering in the world can be traced to people. I believe that God gave us a free will. We can choose to do good or bad. God didn't cause the Holocaust - Hitler did. We've haven't regarded the environment and we live with the consequences. People shoot people.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think people caused the Tsunami. I don't think God did either. I think the earth started and it operates in a certain way. It rotates. We have ecosystems. Plates move. People have certainly had an impact, but the earth, for the most part just keeps evolving naturally. Sometimes this evolution is not easy on the inhabitants.

[txaslftist]

120. Hey Chief... Everyone dies.

Every single body dies.

Whether it's cancer, a flood, a gunshot, heart attack or whatever.

What difference does the manner of passing make?

People die young, they die old, they die unborn... So the fact that a lot of them hadn't lived to their full potential is also irrelevant. People who have coronaries at age 40 due to heart defects don't live to their full potential either.

What does it have to do with God?

If every one of those 100,000 people was going to die anyway, and they certainly were, does their passing all at once in a manner that catches everyone's attention serve a higher purpose?

Maybe a reminder that life is precious and we have to hold onto it with all our might and make the most of each moment?

Maybe a reminder of the awesome power of earth and nature and at the same time a dose of humility at our inability to predict and protect?

A reminder that WE are not omniscient or omnipotent.

We certainly aren't omnibenevolent.