Can any of the men at DU play guitar as well as this woman can?

[Worst Username Ever]

http://www.sonymusic.com/artists/KakiKing/video/KakiKing_ConanVidFull_ref.mov

Rockin.

[slor]

1. Damn....

she is good. She have a cd out?

[tridim]

2. This is only the second time I've seen her

She has an interesting style, but the hammer-on technique is a bit misleading, it's easier than it looks. She also tunes the guitar to a chord. At this point I don't know what to think of her skills, I need to hear more examples. I'm sure she's much better than me however. :)

[slutticus]

17. Yeah... you're right.

She's tuned to a chord.

But definitly a cool style.

[Goldmund]

3. I don't get the question

Why wouldn't a woman be able to play guitar better than a man?

It's not like we're talking about driving a car.

[Worst Username Ever]

6. If it were driving a car, it wouldn't even be a question.

We know that answer to that one :-P

[FizzFuzz]

21. Have any stats to back that up?

here are some stats I found.

These are old, but none more current came up. I'd be interested to see newer ones.

http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=355
"But the fatal crash rate still shows a problem for the menfolk: They are involved at a rate of 2.8 to the women's 1.7. The result? Men and women crash at about the same rate, but men are more likely to get someone killed."

http://www.drdriving.org/facts/
39. The male fatal crash involvement rate per 100,000 population was 3 times as high as for female drivers in 1994.

40. 22% of male drivers involved in fatal crashes were intoxicated compared to 11% of female drivers.

50. The male fatal crash involvement rate per 100,000 population was 3 times as high as for female drivers in 1994. Female drivers continue to exhibit safer driving statistics than male drivers.

Here are some more interesting facts, from MADD.org/stats:

Men are more likely than women to be driving at the time of a fatal crash. (NHTSA, 2004

The intoxication rate (those over .08 BAC) for male drivers involved in fatal crashes was 25 percent, compared with 12 percent for female drivers. (NHTSA, 2003)

Drunk driving is the nation’s most frequently committed violent crime, killing someone every 30 minutes. (NHTSA, 2003)

Overall, young drivers, and especially, young White males account for a large share of the alcohol-crash problem. (NHTSA, 2001)



From these statistics and my personal experiences, I'd say, cut the gratuitous sexism.

[Worst Username Ever]

22. LOL!

Hilarious. Whatever.

[Goldmund]

23. R U Fo Reel?

Was the joke not obvious???

[FizzFuzz]

26. Ain't no thang

Why wouldn't a gay guy be able to play a guitar as well as a straight guy?
It's not like it's a car.

Why wouldn't an Asian be able to play a guitar as well as a white guy?
It's not like it's a car.

Why wouldn't an African American be able to play a guitar as well as a white guy?
It's not like it's a car.

Why wouldn't an Arab be able to play a guitar as well as a white guy?
It's not like it's a car.


What don't you get? Don't like statistics? Gotta put someone down, hide it behind a joke, and women are the only group it's OK to openly do that to?

But don't get upset, it's just what I do, point out sexism, not a personal attack. You can react automatically by slagging me if you like. Or, I invite you to think for a moment how women might feel always being the butt of put-downs, and getting dissed just for saying "pardon me but perhaps you weren't aware that was insulting". Either way, up to you.

[Goldmund]

27. Rolling eyes by 720 degrees...

I wasn't making fun of women.

What I was making fun of is the implicit assertion of the poster that women couldn't be expected to play the guitar as well as men.

In other words, I was not making fun of a sex, but of sexism.

You may not have understood the humor, or the point of what I was trying to say, but spare me the fucking dogma.

[FizzFuzz]

32. Well, then I misread the satire. I apologize, and appreciate your

needling sexism.

Here, let's both lighten up:

[Goldmund]

38. Dig

:toast:

[FizzFuzz]

48. kewl

:D

[slutticus]

28. What is nation’s ?

The font looks all screwy on my browser.

I'm I the only one?

[ProfessorGAC]

4. I've Seen Her. She's Really Good!

Can i play that well? Yes. Sorry to be immodest. I play different music, but with equal technique. (Faster than heck, actually. More immodesty from me. What a shock, huh?)
The Professor

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. She will be playing a guitar show I manage later this month

Misunderestimator and I will meet her

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Well, That Sounds Like Fun!

Say hi, for me.
The Professor

[toddzilla]

5. bleh...

it really isn't that hard at all.

for women guitar players i prefer bonnie raitt and rory block.

[BiggJawn]

7. Wow. How's she DO that?

I figured out that she's "Hammering on" harmonics, but I see her hitting it in places I didn't know would sound...

[toddzilla]

8. listen to spanish fly by eddie van halen, or

many of the satriani compositions. I'm sure there are tons of classical guys that do the same, but i don't listen to them so i don't know.



The more i play the less i care for guitar masturbation.

[Redleg]

16. Exactly. It's not the number of notes you play per second.

It's the feeling you put into your music. That's why some of the simplest music is the most moving. This woman's stuff reminded me of what a robot or computer could produce- very industrial.

[BlueJazz]

9. One of my Studio Guitar player friends saw her and told me.....

she tunes her Ax to open chords and what you hear is not all her...He wasn't impressed at all. I value his opinion highly....He's not one to feel biased toward anybody.
He said "Well..it sounds OK with the hammering thing but what she's doing is really not that hard to learn if you have any long-time experience playing..."

Don't flame me...I'm just relating what a super player told me. I'm a Jazz player (Sax)..but I ask someone who actually plays the instrument if I want to know what's really going down....

[Xipe Totec]

55. No, you're right. Sounds pretty but it ain't guitar

If I were to praise a guitarist it would be Liona Boyd, Narciso Yepes, or Sabicas.

I enjoyed the music, but I did not appreciate the provocative tone in the title of the thread.

[Blue-Jay]

10. If you like Kaki, check out Michael Kelsey.

He's a buddy of mine, and much better than Kaki in my slightly-biased opinion.
http://www.michaelkelsey.com/

[Kire]

11. I'm not impressed, either.

I rolled my eyes several times during that composition. I kept hoping she would start strumming or picking, or 'gasp', playing a melody.

[bobbobbins]

12. I'd hand her her ass

no diggity.

[meganmonkey]

14. I saw her live and I was VERY impressed

She's a kid, maybe 20-22 or so? She was opening for someone and the place was packed with a bunch of stoner hippie dudes, for the most part, and she was just onstage alone and everyone there was pretty much mesmerized.
Her live performance was excellent, and I have seen probably 200 concerts in my life. I don't say that often. She was better than the headliner, that's for sure.

on edit: I expect she will only get better with age - to those who criticize...

on edit #2: she is 25 now. Her website is http://www.kakiking.com/ and it's kinda cool. If you leave it open you'll here a few different songs, some faster, some mellower...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. I think the people knocking her on the thread are blowing hot air

I do acknowledge that people's tastes vary...but one can watch something and be left with the impression that it is easy and the music is effortless...all the way until they attempt to do it.

I will say this..on the independent artist side...Sony wouldn't be backing her if she didn't have the right stuff. She's not a pop artist..she's a musician. If anyone could effortlessly produce what she produces, she would not have the backing of such a huge corp. She reminds me very much of Michael Hedges. I wouldn't doubt if he were part of her inspiration.

[Misunderestimator]

31. The best musicians are those who make it seem easy.

[Karenina]

53. Emily Remler is DEAD.

Susan Weinert is alive and kicking... She had MUCH better protection.
Part of me wishes to write a long pointed rant and the other part says, FUCK IT. NONE of the boys on this thread dissing this girl would EVER understand one word.

Girls are "allowed" to play certain instruments and excel, given the proper protection and marketing. Usually they are BLONDE. Think Diana and Candy, OR they descend from royalty, think Sheila and Teri Lynn. The rest of us are subjected to... I don't even know what to call it...

I have been PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED on stage by MEN AND WOMEN in the "Who's Who" of music. The psychic assaults are way too numerous to mention. My instrument is not common in the genres in which I am skilled. But I'M A GIRL and fair game for any twit who has a problem...

Can ANYONE just be happy that this girl has gotten so far despite the technological degradation of the allgemeine musical art form? Yeah, she tunes on open chords. So does Sonny. SO WHAT? From the snippets I heard, her time is all that. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? :cry: :puke: :cry:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Emily Remler is still GAWD too!

I hear ya...look at all the mediocre male musicians out there..CLAPTON for ONE...the guy plays the pentatonic scale all the way up the neck over and over...and we should all wipe his ass?

[Karenina]

59. Hey, I LOVE ERIC!

(did PR for Stigwood w-a-y-b-a-c-k in the wayback.) I jes' wonderin' why K-girl can't get some props.

[Ron Green]

18. She doesn't swing, and she doesn't rock.

Music gots to have more than math in it.

[democracyindanger]

19. Probably.

There are probably DU women that can play as well as her, too.

If that piece is her best...ZZZZZzzzz...Pretty much the same arpeggio, over and over. But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

[MrSlayer]

20. All she's doing is finger tapping, big whoop.

You can probably do it as well as she. Let's see some arpeggios.

[jpgray]

25. I dunno, but that sucks

:shrug:

DADGAD and hammer-on / pulloffs do not a great composition make--ask Jimmy Page or even Adrian Legg. The reason she's getting big name attention has to do with her being female and somewhat cute--the thousands of ugly guys who can do this just grovel for respect in shitty guitar stores. The aforementioned Adrian Legg or some other open chord noodler wouldn't be quite so marketable.

:D

Have her play Bach's Partita No 3 at full speed and then get back to me.

[slutticus]

30. Man. You have the balls to say what I cannot.

What can I say.

[Misunderestimator]

34. Yes, it takes balls to be that sexist...

I agree.

[slutticus]

?

What's sexist about that?

Had that been a male, I would have said "I'm not impressed" with what he was doing. The reason I held back in this case is because if i had said that about her, I know the "feminists" here would come and start accusing.

Well, now that I think of it.... I guess it is sexist. Your right. I let her off easy because she's a woman. I shouldn't have held back. I apologize.

:eyes:

The point of the matter is that Bonnie Raitt could put this little girl to shame.

[Misunderestimator]

41. It was the comment that THOUSANDS of ugly guys could play

as well as she does. That's the sexist part. Give me a break on the attack.

[slutticus]

44. But JP never implied that there weren't thousands of ugly women...

...that could play as well as she does. Or that a cute guy with the same skill wouldn't get the same attention.

At least that's not how I took it.

[Misunderestimator]

45. In the context of the thread, it came across differently to me.

[slutticus]

51. Yes. When factored in with that topic title.....

Hey Worst Username Ever......Let's talk about your flambaity post title....shall we?




He was trying to ensnare us. He almost succeeded. We can't let him get away with this. :evilgrin:

[jpgray]

47. Yeah, but it could be read pretty snarkily

In the context of the thread, I should have been clearer. Hell, I get pissed just seeing the shrugging smiley. Look at that asshole:

:shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

49. Cool post... thanks.

And I agree on this little shit: :shrug:

[slutticus]

50. LOL

I hate that motherfucker. :shrug:

I wanna punch him in the face.

[Misunderestimator]

33. Right.... The reason she's successful is um... because she's a she...

That sure makes a lot of sense... a woman succeeding in a career dominated by men is succeeding because she's a woman. :eyes:

(As someone who is succeeding in a male dominated profession, I would just love for you to tell me that to my face.)

[jpgray]

36. A guy playing that stuff simply wouldn't be as unique or marketable

I'm not sure what that has to do with sexism?

[Misunderestimator]

37. I believe it was the way you put it...

"The reason she's getting big name attention has to do with her being female and somewhat cute--the thousands of ugly guys who can do this just grovel for respect in shitty guitar stores."

"somewhat cute" (to add a little condescension and rationale that her sex-appeal has something to do with her success, anymore than it would a man)

"thousands of ugly guys" (exaggeratingly saying THOUSANDS in order to further minimize her importance... as if there aren't any other women who could play as well, just thousands of men)

If you don't like her and you think her success is about something other than her talent, don't say it's because of her gender, because then that minimizes ALL other female guitarists (of which there are THOUSANDS), as if not one of them were better than a man (or cute enough).

[jpgray]

39. I stand by that

I've got nothing against female guitar players--Sharon Isbin could play a schmoe like me into the dirt on the classical pieces I love, for example. But to me it's obvious that:

A) If she had a lazy eye, was morbidly obese or had a huge goiter, she would not be as successful.

B) She is worth more playing this type of music because she is female and that is more unique than a male doing the same thing.

And her talent is not being maligned--though I dislike this style of guitar music, she's good at it. It's her talent *in combination* with her unique marketing possiblities that got her this far. No shame in that, guys are treated *almost* exactly the same way. With this type of music, with so many other equally talented players, being unique is the only way to break out.

edit: Maybe I worded it poorly, but I would have said something similar if it was a guy up there.

[Misunderestimator]

40. And putting it the way you just did is so much better than saying

that thousands of ugly guys in guitar stores could play better than her. I'm not reading the same thing here at all.

And I seriously doubt that a man with a lazy eye, mordibly obese or with a huge goiter would be as successful without those things either. Every performer is a combination of talent and marketability (some at farther ends of the scale, but most somewhere in the middle). Not just women.

[jpgray]

43. If it was a pretty boy up there, I would have the same sentiment

Maybe the men vs. women nature of the thread got to me and it came out wrong--but it's still true that there are lots of others with similar talents, but not as much marketability, gumption, what have you.

[Misunderestimator]

46. Cool, then we're in agreement.

:toast:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. Don't tell Michael Hedges that

[Droopy]

29. I think she's very impressive

That's the second time I've seen her and I think she's going to be selling records for a long time.

But let me just say something. I don't think it's a good idea to make this a men vs. women thread. It would probably be better to say something like, "I think Kaki King is an excellent musician. Do you agree?"

[corksean]

35. Technically very proficient but where's the soul?

Thousands of guitarists can play that kind of stuff as well if not better. I used to do it all the time alone in the safety of my bedroom because I kinda figured no one would be interested in what was no more than a technical practice routine.
If you want to hear a guitarist who has the technique AND the feeling listen to Rory Gallagher (still sadly missed).

[guitar man]

42. not bad

...for two-handed wanking on an open tuning, not really anything to write home about either.

[madrchsod]

54. interesting

there woman all over the world who can play great guitar in their given genre . it really all depends on where you are from and what you like to hear.

[tjdee]

57. Technical exercises now count as "rockin'"?

I hate to knock anyone's talent, and obviously she works hard and someone thinks she's rockin' (such as you), but try listening to it without looking. Sounds just like guitar exercises.

As some have said, technically competent but stylistically lacking. I do think she's on Conan because she's a girl, and I can't really tell, but is she a teenager too? Because any teenager in band can get a contract these days if they have a contact, or are unique in some way.

on edit: It appears she's 23, and apparently she has some flamenco influences--so maybe we need to hear more than this song. Her site is very cool.

[eyepaddle]

58. Major vent-session just ahead

This is quite similar to Satriani's "Midnight" or "A Day at the Beach (New Rays from an Ancient Sun)" and I've been a fan of his since "Surfing with the Alien" came out and I've been working on this kind of playing for about nineteen years now. I'm sure other players here can identify with the start/stop nature of your own progress though. Stalled for months or years, then leaps forward. I haven't done much tapping for a couple of years, but I could probably pull it back in a couple of weeks.

Having said that I'm gonna move on to my own personal axe to grind. If I hear one more godammed "it's not how many notes you play but what you say with each one" fucking comment I swear to god I will pop a fucking o-ring! Or "Man sometimes one note just says it all!" Yeah, and sometimes it DOESN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do exercises now count as rocking? Well I suppose IT DEPENDS ON WHICH FUCKING EXERCISE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT JUST MIGHT SOUND COOL, HUH, MAYBE, WHADDYA THINK?!?!?!? It seems to me a lot of people who don't like finger exercise music liked "Dust in the Wind" even though it was just a finger exercise to learn travis-picking.

As long as we're here I want to point out loud and clear, once and for all, that technical and fast playing can be just as emotional as slow soulful playing--do you know why?

I'll tell you why--because there is more than just one emotion! It's true, sometimes I'm not even depressed--in fact I might even feel exuberant or something; why can't music express that and still get respect? Watch a Steve Vai concert tape/DVD and tell me you don't think he feels those notes. You might not like it, but that's not what it's about--it's the emotional connection between that performer and the audience that chooses to be there.

Venting off.

In closing it's just good to see anybody out there trying different avenues and exploring--I hope she does well.

[personman]

60. For the Love of God

By Steve Vai is one good example of a song with a million notes per second that is dripping with emotion. Easily one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard.

[tjdee]

61. I don't put this girl in the same room with Steve Vai AT ALL.

It's not that it's fast playing that's the problem.

I think you'd agree that we shouldn't have Christina Aguilera do some vocal scales and sell them as music. In that particular song, in that particular performance, I personally didn't hear any emotion. Not happiness, not sadness, not anything but technical efficiency. But I personally wouldn't call it rockin'.

She might have been nervous or something, maybe other times she sounds better, maybe I just don't get it---that's why I went over to her site. I'm willing to admit that there may be more to her, but I wasn't seeing it in that clip. Maybe she just doesn't do it for some of us, that's true.

Obviously others feel differently, as she has a contract and fans.

[HEAVYHEART]

62. I agree

She's good, but she's not phenomenal or anything. I too want to feel emotion, passion. Fuck technical efficiency. I'd rather hear a musician play a simple 3 chord song with lots of emotion whether it be via vocals or guitar, bass, etc.. than hear somebody jacking off on their instrument or play like a robot.

[eyepaddle]

64. I don't put her is Steve's league either, today

anyway, who knows about the future? I am not comparing her directly to Vai, or Adria Legg, but hey, give her another 35-50 years of practice and who knows where she might wind up?

I just wanted to point out that the emotional response comes form the listener--not the player.

And I don't understand why it's so fashionable to hack on technical proficiency. Let me use an analogy: "Yeah, all of that pilot's take-off and landings were perfect--but where's the sense of adventure?"

I am WELL aware that if we took a poll of everybody in the world I would be in the tiny minority--I'd much rather hear somebody jacking off on their instrument than play a simple three chord song.

To each their own,

[Xipe Totec]

63. If the idea is to express emotion, then Sabicas and no other

Listen to "El Castillo Moro" for technique and speed, "Joyas de la Alhambra" for emotion. But, truthfully, any one will do.



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000DBOX/ref=m_art_bow_3/102-6995987-6463360?v=glance&s=music

(I agree with your points by the way, that is why Sabicas comes to mind when thinking about expressiveness with the guitar.)

[eyepaddle]

65. Cool, I'll look into it,

Now that I've got (most of) the belligerence out of my system I want to say that I love to hear new music. Some I like, some I don't, but if you don't check, you'll never know.:hi: