Rant against prayer and positive thinking

[spinbaby]

Ah, the sort of things you obsess about when insomnia hits. I'm feeling so frustrated about our nephew--he's a fundie type who swallows all that bull that if you believe it and think positive thoughts then it must be true.

He started a business. We were stupid enough to lend him money to start a business. He ran it into the ground in no time through the power of prayer and positive thinking which are, as it turns out, no substitute for advertising, bookkeeping, basic cleanliness, or paying taxes.

So, has this experience shaken his belief in prayer and positive thinking? No, he just thinks this means God wants him to be a preacher.

I give up.

[drhilarius]

1. That's the problem isn't it...

You succeed, then God has rewarded you.
You fail, then God is punishing/pushing you in another direction.

That's just one problem with mystical thinking- it shifts the burden of action/responsibility, or the rewards of success, to some outside entity.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. religious thinking, maybe, mystical thinking, no

a mystic takes full responsibility for his/her actions. A real practicing mystic takes responsibility not only for his/her actions, but for the repercussions of those actions, which is no mean feat. As the Beloved Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) said "Love God, but tie your camel". This means, to the Sufi at least, that one takes care of business in the world, and doesn't rely on God to do it for him/her. In fact, a mystic doesn't see God as rewarding/punishing the way it is commonly viewed, but sees 'good' and 'bad' as human concepts. The mystic is concerned with perfecting him/herself, and realizes that it is all within. So no cop outs here saying something failed or was a success because of God. It was a failure or a success because of circumstances, and one should learn from those circumstances.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Dad! Is that you?

He used to say, "A Dios rogando y con el mazo dando."

[roenyc]

2. Geez does this mean he doesn't think

he has to pay anyone back? or will he pay you all back when the donations come in.

nice that he can blame his failures on Gods will. good one. imagine telling your boss:

boss: the report you gave me was all wrong and i lost our biggest account!!

you: that must have been gods will. they must be an evil account.

yeah ok.

[spinbaby]

10. He dumped it on us

We now own a building we don't particularly want and can run a business out of it if we feel like it. I suppose we'll get our money back eventually with a lot of hassle on our part.

[JordanTO]

3. God does not ask you t substitute blind faith for intelligence.

That's why He gave us a brain, to go with the free will and faith.

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

5. My sister had a sore on her breast for MONTHS

It grew and got angry-looking. She and her fundie husband did nothing, believing that "God would heal it." It finally broke open and gushed blood, at which point she had to be rushed to the ER by ambulance. Tests were performed, revealing stage III-B breast cancer. Where is my sister now? In an urn in Kansas near our mother's grave.

I believe in God. I also believe the adage that "God helps those who help themselves." God does not want us to refrain from using our intelligence and relying on blind faith; why would He have given it to us if not to USE IT???

[JordanTO]

13. "God helps those who help themselves."

Exactly right. God created us as both spiritual AND sentient beings, and to refuse to use either apsect is a churlish rejection of a most precious gift.

[LDS Jock]

6. you think maybe this thread is a tad in bad taste?

you posted it shortly after another DUer asked for good vibes and prayers for his partner who is having surgery today.

[SheilaT]

7. I haven't looked at the other post

but personally I don't get all the asking for prayers or promises of prayers I see here on DU. I would have thought people here were more rational than that. Prayer is no substitute for appropriate medical care. As the above story about breast cancer so clearly illustrates.

I mean, what are you supposed to conclude when you pray for surgery or any medical procedure to go well, and it doesn't?

Think about it.

Of course the current administration thinks a faith-based medical system is just fine.

[LDS Jock]

8. I haven't seen anyone here asking for cyber faith healings

Only for prayer. So you don't believe in it. They do. Must it be mocked?

My own church's teaching is to pray as if it is all up to God, then go do all you can as if its all up to you.

[SheilaT]

19. I don't mock anyone.

In fact, I've always avoided -- and will continue to avoid -- posting my own skepticism in the threads that ask for prayers.

But since this thread got started, I'm happy to contribute my thoughts.

Careful study has shown that, contrary to extremely flawed pro-prayer studies that were so well publicized a few years back, prayer does not make any difference in medical outcomes.

I'm quite aware that many who work in the medical field believe that a patient's own positive attitude makes all the difference in the world. And then, those same people will express amazement when someone with a very positive attitude, dies anyway.

I'm probably the most upbeat person out there, and I enjoy extraordinarily good health. I have no idea if there's a cause and effect connection, but there you go. However, I don't rely on prayer or mere positive thoughts but try to take good care of myself in all the obvious ways.

[JordanTO]

14. My father is a physician, and he believes in the power of prayer.

Virtually any physician will tell you that there is a definite positive contribution to healing from prayer and/or faith/spirituality. It need not be Christian faith, neccessarily, but there are many recoveries and successful medical outcomes which cannot be explained from a merely technical point of view.

[Beer Snob-50]

15. a story...

a flood hit a town and a man was up on his roof with the flood waters all around him. he prayed to god for help. a man in a boat came to help him. "I am waiting for god to help he yelled" and prayed again. Then a helicopter came to help and the man said the same thing again. Finally the flood waters overtook him and he died. He met God and asked him why he didn't answer his prayers. God said, "I sent you a boat and helicopter, what more did you want!"

[progmom]

21. I love that story.

:hi:

[mtnsnake]

9. Sorry, but there is no substitute for positive thinking

"He ran it into the ground in no time through the power of prayer and positive thinking which are, as it turns out, no substitute for advertising, bookkeeping, basic cleanliness, or paying taxes."

It's the other way around. I'm not religious, in the organized religion sense, but positive thinking and blind faith kick ass. Believe in something strong enough, and forces deep inside you connect with forces around you to take care of business. I'm not sure what these outside forces are, could even be electrical in nature, or magnetic, or who knows, but they're there and they work with your subconscious.

[spinbaby]

12. Well, that's nice

But if you wait around for God to balance your checking account, you're in trouble. There's a difference between having a positive attitude which drives you to do something positive and having a positive attitude which leads you to expect that good things will be dropped in your lap without your having to do anything.

[kick-ass-bob]

11. It's one thing is to use positive thinking

it's another to use it and then do what you need to do to make it work.

[Bridget Burke]

17. Your nephew's problem was lack of advertising, bookkeeping,

basic cleanliness & paying taxes. The "prayer & positive thinking" things were just excuses.

Some people with real-world skills also believe in prayer and/or positive thinking; it works for them.

Constant bitching & negative thinking won't accomplish much besides insomnia & having people flee your presence.

[Orsino]

18. You've given him money...

...and gotten no return. Are you sure he isn't *already* a fundamentalist preacher?

[amazona]

20. never loan money

I would believe in prayer and positive thinking too if my relatives enabled me by "loaning" me money. I've never seen a situation where this ended well.

Be respectful enough of your nephew to let him make his own mistakes without economic out-patient assistance from you. If being a preacher is code word for "begging for money from friends and relatives," be brave and be the first to say no.

In the end, you will be doing him a great favor.

I've been there, made that mistake, fallen on my face a time or two, so I know how tough it is to watch someone struggle. But you really shouldn't cheat them of their own life. Hang tough.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72