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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:50 PM
Original message
The Health Food Store or Creatures from the Dark side ??
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 02:52 PM by BlueJazz
About every 2 weeks I go to one of 3 health food stores in the area where I live. I've grown quite fond of a few products that usual markets don't sell like Vegenaise and Almond Butter.

Anyway..
I don't believe I've ever seen a more sickly-ass looking bunch than the folks that visit health-food stores....
..Damn, I swear 3/4th of the women have drawn "blanchy" discolored skin, look like they haven't had a decent night's sleep in 3 years and the men seem like they are trying out for a bit part in a "Nazi Concentration Camp" picture.

I noticed this the 2 or third time I started going to health food stores but thought it was just a coincidence but after 6 months I'm convinced that these folks are either not getting certain amino acids or they are Zombies!

I mean, Christ..you would think that the "hardcore Healthnuts" would have red rosy cheeks and flaxen beautiful hair instead of looking like they were going after the "Gothic Look" :)
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. You are too funny, BlueJazz!
I believe that they are often anemic myself.

Another thing to consider is this: Often times, people are drawn to health food stores in their quest to get well from a certain malady they suffer from.

As a nutritionist and biochemist and as someone who was once very sick, I know this from experience.

So now, I always make a point of looking these folks in the eye and showing them an especially kind smile. It means so much to them if they are sick- that you are seeing the person inside and not the outer shell which may not be so lovely to look at. (They do notice the other types of looks they sometimes get and it hurts a little.)
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Oh..I would never be cruel or anything like that and I HAVE....
...thought that "Maybe these folks are alergic to regular food or have been sick".

I certainly don't judge a person's worth by their apperance....I was just not prepared to see so many sick folks at a health store.....BUT the fact that some of them held up their skinny arms and screamed "BRAINS!" didn't help....

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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. Sick..
Actually, there was a lady who shopped our organic market in Chattanooga who was obviously undergoing chemo. We've used organic vegetables and milk and have been better for it. I don't have patience for the hardcore vegans, though.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. Most of our local health food stores were bought by Whole Foods
The customers at Whole Foods look affluent and well-fed, because they are, because you have to be affluent to shop there.

We still have a couple of local co-ops. One (the well-run one) is also patronized by mostly healthy-looking people. A lot of their customers and staff are in recovery from drug and alcohol addictions.

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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I'm one of those Whole Foods customers
One of my favorite moments in WH came when I was checking out, and I mentioned to the clerk - I'm a regular, so we recognize each other and chat - and I said, "Don't you ever get sick of seeing all the healthy food going past you all day?"

He said, "You should go out on the loading dock in the back, see what's out there."

It was lunchtime, so I swung around back there, and all the employees who were on their break were sitting out there, smoking cigarettes, McDonald's bags everywhere, and they all looked a damn sight happier than the shoppers within.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I also shop at Whole Foods and a few other health food stores
- I eat fairly healthy, but am not a fanatic - and one of the things I've noticed is how surly and angry many of the customers seem (more so than the other grocery stores I shop in.) The hostility is almost palpable and I have noticed it to a heightend degree in the smaller health food stores. I have actually had to leave some of these stores on numerous occasions because the negative energy was so overwhelming at times. (I am very sensitive to people's energies)

Maybe it's the perfectionism that drives people to eat restricted diets or strict health regimens that causes them to be so uptight, but it seems much more pervasive in health food stores than in regular markets.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yeah, I've seen the same thing over and over, and I think
there's nothing wrong with them that a Big Mac and a few laughs wouldn't help.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. That's funny! To be honest, I haven't noticed that at our WF
As I said, most of us are fat and happy and fairly affluent, as we stock up on our gingersnaps and blueberry cornbread. When I'm in the mood for major carb-loading - and BAD carbs too - I head straight for Whole Foods.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Eating McDonalds?
The CEO of Mickey Dee's died yesterday or colon/rectal cancer. . worked at McDonalds since he was 19, he was only 44 when he died. He had replaced the former CEO who died in April at age 60 of a heart attack. That's where THAT food will get ya. The same goes for the inventor of
Baskin and Robbins, he died at age 54 from a heart attack.

I shop at whole foods for all dairy(milk, butter, eggs and cheeses, coffee beans, bread (the best I have ever had), rice pasta and snacks and juice, it's all I can afford. I shop the local market for produce and stay away from meat as much as possible.

As an aside, I nailed the recipe for their artichoke/garlic pesto which they charge 4.99 for 4 oz. and which cost me 2.99 to make twice as much. If anyone's interested, I'll post it.

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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Lest we forget
Jim Fixx.

Nathan Pritikin.

Both were fitness and health nuts. Both croaked, Fixx at an unduly young age.

It's not so much your diet - and you don't honestly believe that the CEOs eat that stuff, do you? - as your genes.

Ask Jim Fixx.

Ask Nathan Pritikin.

Americans have gotten into the rut of treating food like medicine, as if somehow finding the right combination of pleasure-abnegating foods will enable them to live forever.

I'm Italian-born. We eat, we have almost no cardiovascular disease, and we worship food. The Americans could take a hint from any number of other cultures.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. "and you don't honestly believe that the CEOs "
Oh but they do. I read a lengthy article on it a few weeks ago. Mr. Robbins was constantly eating the ice cream his whole life, his son said as much in an interview and the CEO that just passed worked at McDonalds since age 19, he started from the bottom up. That food is addictive in a sick way, haven't you seen Supersize me?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. So, let me get this straight
He died of colon cancer because he ate McDonald's?

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Colon cancer, sure, your diet won't help if you're carrying that gene, but as for causation - no, I don't agree.

I saw Supersize me, and I thought it was an exercise in absurdist self-aggrandizement. A total waste of time.

As for addictive, naw, I don't agree with that, either. Maybe if you're lazy or don't have other options, you'll eat fast food all the time, but that word - addictive - is being used a little too casually today, and I object to its cheapening.

If you don't like what fast food is, don't eat it. But, to imply that it caused someone's death from colon cancer is just reductionist absurdity.

You gotta admit, though - there's nothing like a Big Mac. :)
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I'm sure it's very comforting to believe that your sausages and burgers
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. My goodness
You think you know a lot about my diet, but, I must tell you, you've got it all wrong. "Garbage." What a nasty word, and what an unpleasant approach you have.

I hope pulling up all those websites made you feel better. You sure do need to preach, but, I have to tell you, your anger and crankiness make me think you're in serious need of some barbeque. Ribs.

Or maybe a nice cheeseburger.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. many people eat fast food every day
I was married to one. Every day, and yes, that sort of food on a daily basis year in and year out will kill you. It's addictive because it tastes good; salt and fat usually do. As for other options, folks on the lower ladders of the economic scale will eat fast food because it is cheaper than a piece of salmon and a baked potaote and broccoli in terms of money, energy spent procuring, cooking and cleaning. Especially for single people who are less inclined to cook every day than those who have others to cook for.

But anyway, it is completely true that a high fat, high salt/sugar diet will cause all manner of diseases. The science proves that. The links in the post above this one are helpful.
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't have any health food stores where I live.
We have a Krogers and a produce market, and that's it :(
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. We call that "the vegan look"
I mean, it beats the McDonalds look, but there's a middle ground!

I'm fond of some natural color in a face.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. The vegan look?
I know lots of vegans...am one myself. Not I, nor a single one of them looks like that, actually.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. See post 22 for apology. nt
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. I am a vegan nd I assure you, I look plenty healthy.
I am plenty healthy. No need to steryotype an entire group.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. See post 22 for apology. nt
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Wha?
I'm vegan and I'm niether emaciated (actually, I'm a bit soft around the middle, I'm trying to work out more) nor is my skin patchy. I must confess i'm on the light complected end of things, but that's heredity. My mother and sister have a similar skin tone and both of them eat meat.

For that matter, LeftyKid is vegan and the kid is adorable, with the sutest rosy chipmunk cheeks you ever laid eyes on and built like a football player.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Sorry, don't mean to stereotype or hurt any feelings.
I admire the vegan commitment to eating closer to the bottom of the food chain.

I *do* know some people who are less than careful about getting their full complement of amino acids, and are definitely on the waxy-pale end of things. You DO have to be more vigilant about nutrients if you rely entirely on plant foods. (I live in a very lefty town and there are many people with alternative diets -- to the point where you have to practically hand out surveys before you have a dinner party. Okay, okay, I admit to a small amount of latent hostility toward people who turn up their noses at a lovely cheese... but that's my own issue and I should deal with it on my own time!)

But you're right: I shouldn't make sweeping statements!

:toast:

(that's an organic homebrew in the mugs)

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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. apology and beer accepted
BTW, People on odd diets ought to offer to bring something when they go to a party. That way you don't have to bend over backward to make sure there's soemthing they can eat. It's just good manners. :)
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. I have noticed the same thing among my "health food nazi"
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 04:26 PM by smirkymonkey
friends and they are always telling you how "unhealthy" YOUR diet is.

However, I am extremely healthy looking (and otherwise very healthy) whereas most of them look like they are at death's doorstep and are constantly getting sick and complaining about other various ailments. I am all for a healthy diet, but I really don't like it when people get self-righteous and start offering unsolicited advice on how I should live my life.

I think balance is the key. Anything too extreme and you will probably have a difficult time getting all the nutrients you need.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Yeah, but don't drink conventional milk or consume conventional dairy
do you know what they give to cows to make all that milk for cheese, sour cream, cream cheese, butter, and much of which ends up in all the prepackaged food that contains dairy?

Bovine Growth Hormone. Bovine growth hormone which has been approved here in the states for years and which failed to get approved in Canada is unhealthy. Why because the hormone over stimulates the milk ducts in cows to the point of infection, IOW, PUS was found in all the milk. So what did MONSANTO decide to do about that? Give the cows anti-biotics along with the BGH. The FDA, whose board members are FORMER Monsanto execs rammed through this approval despite the results from canadian mice, which were found cancerous.

I don't diss good tasting food, both my parents are chef's, but I draw the line on carcinogenic BGH and anti-biotics in my dairy.

Check it out, do a google search on "Monsanto Milk", or go here:

http://www.davidicke.net/medicalarchives/cover/monsapproval.html


********* Testimony 11-30-99

Hi everybody, I've got to apologize first - I don't have a prepared statement like the other panel members. All I'm going to give here is some facts.

I have a copy of the Federal Register. It says here advertising this meeting:

"FDA is not aware of information that will distinguish genetically engineered food as a class from other foods."

I'm going to give you some information today, guys.

The greatest controversy in FDA history was the approval process for Monsanto's genetically engineered bovine growth hormone. We shouldn't be here today! We should not be in this room and I shouldn't be here because, in 1994, Congress HAD A BILL that was going to require mandatory labeling of all foods that were influenced by genetic engineering. I got my Congresswoman to co-sponsor that bill - 181 congresspeople co-sponsored that bill, and you know what? I learned how Congress works that year because in 6 months they stalled the bill - 12 members of the Dairy Livestock & Poultry Committee - they stalled the bill until the 1994 session of Congress expired and the bill died.

I was so upset, I investigated these 12 men and found that collectively they took $711,000 in PAC money from companies with dairy interests, and four of the members of the committee took money directly from Monsanto.

Now we've got a lot of political intrigue and some real science here. We've got science fiction, we've got a combination of John Grisham and we've got a combination of Stephen King.

Nikita Khrushchev said that what the scientists have in their briefcase is terrifying - and I've got some interesting things in my briefcase to share with you today.

When Monsanto made their genetically engineered bovine growth hormone, they noticed a couple of problems right towards the end - right before approval. They noticed that laboratory animals were getting cancer, and they noticed that cows were getting mastitis, ulcers in their udders. They were putting more pus and bacteria into the milk. So Monsanto arranged

We've heard from Dr. Maryanski this morning, and Dr. Maryanski talked about the Pure Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act but what he didn't tell you was that in 1958, Robert Delaney, a congressman from New York, added the Delaney Amendment which was named after him. The Delaney Amendment stated that if a food additive caused cancer, it was not to be approved - a pretty good law - right?

Monsanto got their attorney, Michael Taylor from the firm of King & Spalding By the way, when they started in 1979, they groomed their attorney who is now in the Supreme Court, Clarence Thomas, from the same law firm.

Anyway, Monsanto's attorney, Michael Taylor, wrote and minimized the Delaney Amendment- he wrote a scientific paper that was published in the "Journal of Toxicology". Lawyers -they write in law review journals, but this lawyer wrote in the "Journal of Toxicology": "a De-Minumus interpretation of the Delaney Amendment" became the new protocol, the new standard operating procedure at FDA. They minimized cancer.

Michael Taylor was hired by the Food & Drug Administration, and became the second most powerful man there, Monsanto's attorney - he wrote the standard operating procedure. In other words, if you see cancer, ignore it. Margaret Miller and Suzanne Sechen, Monsanto's scientists, were hired by the FDA to review Monsanto's own research.

Margaret Miller knew cows were getting mastitis. The first week at the FDA, December 3, 1989, she was given broad power, and here's an affect of genetic engineering nobody has considered. She knew cows were getting sick from the genetically engineered hormone. She changed the amount of antibiotics that farmers could have in their milk. She changed it from 1 part per 100 million to 1 part per million - this is a fact! She increased it by 100 times.

There is a hero of mine in the audience, Michael Hansen from Consumer's Union - Consumer's Union tested milk in the New York metropolitan area and found the presence of 52 different antibiotics in milk samples.

FDA published on August 24, 1990, the first time ever in a peer-reviewed journal, in "Science". "Science" was started by Thomas Edison in the 1880's. They published a review of bovine somatotropin -bGH -the genetically engineered cow hormone. And in that review, there were seven tables of data. Five of those tables came from one study authored by Richard, Odaglia and Deslex. This is the famous "90-Day Study." Guess what? This was actually a study lasting for 180 days and when I first heard about this in 1994, I filed a Freedom of Information Act Request for that study - because I saw from the data that the average spleen of a lab animal increased 46%.

I called FDA and spoke with Dick Teske. I said, "46%? You said there were no biological effects!"

He said, "That's not statistically significant."

I said, "Well, let me see the raw data."

He said, "It's a trade secret."

I called Monsanto, they laughed at me. They said, "It's a trade secret and you will never see it."

I'm smart, I filed a Freedom of Information Act Request, but I didn't realize you can't find out the study. I went to Federal Court, I said, "Your honor - spleen increase of 46%, that's leukemia in 90 days!"

I met with FDA on April 21, 1995, and found out that this was actually a 180-day study.

In Canada, they had this study. I have a letter here , an internal memorandum:

"This is to advise you that the copies of reports, letters, etc. for drug submissions have been stolen from my files."

This was stolen from a scientist's file in Canada. They stole the second half of the "90-Day Study."

We've got real science here. I'm going to talk briefly about the real science because when Monsanto made this hormone, they had to tell the FDA - they had to draw a chart of every amino acid - the 191 amino acids. And when FDA wrote their paper in "Science" magazine they wrote that one amino acid changed - it was a different hormone than the naturally occurring one.

At the same time, somebody hired C. Everett Koop to come and say that genetically engineered milk and the good old wholesome milk is indistinguishable. Well, it wasn't. Something happened to the hormone that Monsanto made. The FDA said that there was one change in the endamino acid. It became epsilon-N-acetyllysine. FDA had written if there was a change in the middle of the protein, there could be disastrous results. They cited Jerome Moore. I got Jerome Moore's paper. It said if there is a protein change in the middle, there could be Alzheimer's or sickle cell anemia or diabetes.

Four months after the hormone was approved, one of Monsanto's scientists, Bernard Violand, published in the July 3, 1994 issue of the journal "Protein Science" evidence that Monsanto made a mistake.

Oops! Monsanto created a freak amino acid. Did you ever see that movie "The Fly" with Jeff Goldblum when the fly comes in and he becomes half-human and half-fly? Monsanto created a freak amino acid. Monsanto admitted it but didn't tell the FDA. .

Gentlemen, the hormone that's on the market today is different than the one you tested for seven years. Monsanto spent 500 million dollars, submitted 55,000 pages of information to you, learned late in the process that they created a freak amino acid - that's what was tested on laboratory animals and it didn't matter because FDA said to Monsanto, you know something? It's safe because when you pasteurize milk, you destroy the hormone.

They performed this research up in Guelph, Ontario by Paul Groenewegan, and I've got his study. To this day, FDA thinks -it's on your web page - that 90% of the bovine growth hormone is destroyed by pasteurization. But what Paul Groenewegan did working with Ted Elasser and Brian McBride, two Monsanto scientists, was he pasteurized milk for 30 minutes at 162ºF, and when I read that - I said, wait a second, milk is pasteurized for 15 seconds at that temperature - not 30 minutes. They intentionally tried to destroy the hormone, they only destroyed 19% of it - somebody lied. And at that moment, FDA said to Monsanto:

"Because you destroy it by pasteurization, you don't have to do further toxicology studies. You don't have to develop a test for this hormone in milk. It's now safe to drink."

They (FDA) developed a zero day withdrawal - they determined it was safe to drink.

We have a lot of political intrigue here. We have an interesting situation where people have said that a revolving door policy exists at FDA. I mean, where is the ex-FDA commissioner, guess who he is working for? He is working for Monsanto. Bob Dole ran for President, his Chief of Staff was Donald Rumsfeld (ex-president of Searle, owned by Monsanto). I have one last comment



I know, but we have a labeling issue here - we have a right to know - I have listened to comments about "multi-faceted educational effort that we need" - that's called brainwashing! I don't want a "multi-faceted educational effort" - I want a double helical structure (AUDIENCE APPLAUDS) on a piece of food that I'm going to buy in the supermarket because I have a right to know.

Because the bottom line is - mistakes were made and when I hear from the American Dietetic Association, , I want to remind you that Monsanto gave you $100,000 to set up a toll-free hotline about the bovine growth hormone.

Mistakes were made! We've got political intrigue here and the bottom line is we have a right to know what we are eating. Thank you. (APPLAUSE)






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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. I do eat organic dairy...
and meat and vegetables, etc. The hormone thing gives me the creeps.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. if most of them are vegan...thats the problem
not the healthfoods themselves
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Yes, because vegan=sickly. Got it.
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smurfygirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. I'm confused with this statement
I'm vegan and don't look sick. In fact I'm very healthy, and workout 4 days a week. Have a nice skin tone. Never have to wear makeup. Have healthy hair and nails. So, to say that vegans are sick is just plain stupid on your part. Vegan ism is not for everyone and just as in any diet you must eat right. For vegans this isn't complicated once you learn how to prepare well rounded meals. I know many meat eaters who not only look sick but constantly are sick. I call it the meat eater look, you know they often look like the animal they are found of eating. Pig and chicken seem to be most common, but beef is apparent in many meat eaters too. Symptoms range from fat around the neck to the ankles. They also appear to have problems with wide hips and their offspring seem to go through puberty much earlier due to the hormones they ingest. Sickness symptoms range from sinus infections to headaches to diarrhea to high cholesterol to heartburn, and most often arthritic symptoms. A general lack of activeness can be noticed in most meat eaters. Severe symptoms of meat eaters range from diabetics to asthmatics, to heart disease.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. not implying that all vegans are unhealthy
but many are...many studies have proven this...meat causes its own issues but both vegans and vegetarians have to be very careful to get all their amino acids intake filled. a lot of people cant/dont and thereby are not very healthy looking.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Oh, please
By your reasoning, vegans won't ever get sick or die.

Please. Balance and moderation in all things.

And, laying off the inane generalities might be good for one's sense of humor and place in this world.

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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. She didn't say that at all - you are imposing words upon her not said
Which is not only illogical, it's just RUDE. Of course vegans get sick and die, don't be stupid.

Meat eaters are statistically more likely to suffer heart disease, obesity, cancer and diabetes. All your huffing and puffing will not change that. It is not for you to determine her place in the world and it seems to me that you are the one lacking in any discernable sense of humor.

You should look up the China Health Project, the largest study of human health ever conducted to see how high-fat rich meat diets affect life and quality of life.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. No namecalling.
Settle down, and stop calling anyone "stupid." I'm going to let you off on this one, because you're so obviously misguided.

My husband's Chinese. We live three months of the year in China, and have for years. I know plenty about the traditional Chinese diet. It means nothing in the United States, since there are far too many other factors that are controlling.

So, now that you've calmed down and have gotten a little handle on yourself, I will offer you this comfort by telling you that I forgive you your rudeness and your errors of judgment and fact.

You probably just need a good cheeseburger to make you feel better.

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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. And we are to believe you weren't being rude?
If you disagree with someone, just say so. You don't need to be so hostile about it. She was merely making a point, and you tell her to eat a cheeseburger? If you have valid arguments, that's one thing. The whole point of a discussion forum is to have a discussion, is it not? You however, are just throwing corny insults at people. The eat a burger thing just isn't funny. :eyes:
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Now, now
Settle down and curb that aggression.

Just because someone disgrees does not make them hostile. My posts are unfailingly polite and to the point.

If you find that "cheeseburger" remark hostile or not funny, I'm afraid your sense of humor is as impaired as your ability to understand the role of food in daily human life.

Now, unclick your "smilies" preference, because it looks sort of dumb, that ":eyes:" thing.

And, I must tell you, if you ate a more balanced diet, you wouldn't be so cranky.

Perhaps a plain burger for you?

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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Hush now
You're beating a dead horse.

(Oh, dear. Did that tired old saying upset you, too?)

Get a grip, relax, lighten up, quit taking on imaginary battles, and stop seeing hostility in a joke or a tease. Nothing is that serious, and you're skating dangerously on the edge of tiresome.

However, you won't read any more burger jokes from me here.

No way, no more, never again.

You need a nice big sirloin, rare, with a huge baked Idaho slathered with butter and sour cream. Maybe a cob of sweet white corn, also dripping in warm butter. A little salt.

(You were right - that burger reference was woefully inadequate.)
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's likely that these folks are sickly, hence the reason they're
looking for the latest "salvation" at the health food store, or following incorrect dietary information.
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loudestchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Even the most well intentioned person can get into trouble on a vegan diet
if they don't educate themselves about the needs of a healthy body. My husband had a very difficult transition to a vegetarian diet because his former habits didn't prepare him for the new way of eating. It took about 2 months to work out the kinks in protien, vitamins and caloric intake to make him feel productive again. We did lots of research, it helped alot. :-)
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. That's true
Edited on Tue Jan-18-05 07:55 PM by Piperay
when both my mother and aunt had cancer they would go to health food stores for special supplements and different things to eat. Of course they didn't look healthy...they were dying from cancer not from veganism!


Edit: Neither of them were vegans, they were meat eaters...so their sickly look was because they were sick.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
30. Hey, my dad eats NOTHING but beef and small amounts
of rice or potatoes. Seriously; beef for every meal (OK, sometimes it's pork on holidays). He has a pacemaker, is 100 pounds overweight and just had surgeries for kidney stones and an aortic aneurysm. Damn, now that's some meat eatin' health!
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I doubt meat bears the full responsibility
Your dad's 100 lbs overweight? With a pacemaker?

I trust his doctor's told him to lose weight, and he's decided not to.

That's not the meat talking - that's your dad. I'm sorry that he's not well. I hope things get better for him.

Try introducing him to salads, maybe? And a walk around the block now and then?
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I've pleaded, I've fixed him meals myself
I've even tried covering veggies in cheese just to try to get him to eat something that isn't meat (or rice and potatoes-actually, the potatoes are a pretty rare item, and he only eats rice once a day). I send him articles on the proper diets for people with his health conditions, I try to talk him into walking ANYWHERE ("my knees hurt" is all I get in response. Yeah, well being 100 pounds overweight will do that...)

Two ribeye steaks for breakfast, a rump roast for lunch, and a pork chop for dinner (with a small side of rice). The human body just isn't made to process that much protein and fat. The only mammals who can live on an all meat diet are cats, hyenas, and mongoose/ meerkats...and even they need a mouthful of grass every so often. True omnivores like raccoons and bear have HUGE canine teeth, quite unlike ours. We need diets that are primarily made up of vegetables and fruits; hell, even dogs can live well on an all vegetarian diet, but don't do well on an all meat diet (the oldest dog in Guinness is a 27 year old Border Collie who has never eaten meat).I've shown my dad all these facts and more, but he ignores them. Meat is just too tasty to him. I just wish I could convince my dad that his nearly completely carnivorous diet is killing him before it's too late! :-(
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. He's a poster boy for Atkins
Isn't he? With all that meat consumption, I'm amazed he's not shedding the pounds daily.

Are you sure that's all he eats? Or, has he been diagnosed with congestive heart failure?

There's not much you can do, my friend, and I feel for you.
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paula777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. He would be a poster boy for Atkins, but the rice and potato's are
ruining it ... too many carbs to hit ketosis ? (sp)
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I seriously doubt that a half cup of carbs
is "ruining" a diet of several pounds of meat a day. Adkins doesn't say "eat ONLY red meat"; even wild carnivores eat the contents of their prey's stomach and need grass and other greens to survive. Adkins strongly recommends eating vegetables daily. Without the roughage, the grease will just gum up your system and kill you (not to mention the lack of vitamins). It isn't meant as a lifestyle either; it's a diet, and diets never work because you eventually need to go off of them.

Besides, I think the rice was just cooked to prove to me that he would eat something other than red meat. If I wasn't there, I doubt if he would have been eating it.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Does he eat a lot of rice and/or potatoes?
I somehow got the impression he ate only a tiny portion of those things.

Yeah, ketosis. He wouldn't achieve it.

But, I was thinking - with all that meat, his kidney function must be in overdrive. That kind of animal protein ingestion makes it really hard on his kidneys.

Oy. This is really awful.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Yes, I'm sure that's all he eats
and Adkin's recommends lots of vegetables too-NOT just beef and pork! I stayed with my dad for a month up north while my home was pummeled by hurricanes week after week last year. He had a whole 'fridge full of meat products, and little else. On morning I saw him eat nothing but bacon for breakfast! I fixed him several savory vegetable omelets for breakfast when I was there. He marveled that anything that wasn't full of beef or ham could taste good, but I doubt if he'll ever make one for himself (he suggested that next time I make the omelets using only eggs, cream cheese and ham) x(
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Freebird12004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
39. some of us are still beautiful
even if I do shop at health food stores.

But remember - a lot of those folks are still trying to get well.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. I have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome
so I buy all the organic produce I can afford. I hardly ever eat meat, or sugar, and I stay away from carbs as much as I can.If I didn't take handfuls of supplements every day, then I couldn't even sit up to type this. I don't know where these "sickly" people are; the people I see at my health food store are beautiful and trim. :shrug:
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Freebird12004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. I have both of those
plus a whole handful of other oops from living a full and active life right up until a box fell on the back of my neck .... after years of pain - you guessed it " fibromyalgia" .... and then I found Young Living Essential Oils. I'm up and around - except for the winter months - but I'm gaining on that too.
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