Question about Vegetarians/Vegans/Non-Veggies

[rene moon]

So, my hubby is a veggie. I am when I eat at home but I sometimes will have chicken if I go out to eat. I have always hated red meat. As a child, I couldn't eat that stuff, it made me sick and for the most part, still does.

So, I wonder why people get offended when they find out that I don't eat meat. And then I wonder why some vegetarians/vegans I know get mad that I/my hubby aren't full-on veggies. I mean, why the venom and hostility?

What say you? Why is eating meat/not eating meat such an issue?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I don't know

I have vegetarian friends, and take a vegetarian dish when we go there for a potluck. It's no big deal with them.

[rene moon]

2. well, it's not the people we hang out with

that do that.

It's more the strangers/acquaintances that make comments.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. actually i know a bunch of vegans who get very upset

if i order meat when i eat dinner with them.

some people are judgemental...has nothing to do with whether or not they eat meat

[justiceischeap]

9. I'm a vegan and I get offended when friends order meat

I am usually offended because, if I'm out with meat-eating friends, then they as friends know my beliefs. For me it's more about my friends being inconsiderate, it's not because I'm judgemental.

For example, I'm a smoker but when I'm with friends who don't smoke, which are most of them, I always go away from where they are to smoke. It's inconsiderate of me not to.

Plus, a lot of meat-eaters get pissed at veg/vegans because, so it seems anyway, we choose to be compassionate and we get judged all the time about it. How often are you judged, or have people look at you like you're a freak because of your choice, particularly if you make a choice out of compassion and deep conviction? I, as a vegan, get it all the time. So like anyone who has judgement passed on them for something truly silly (my choice to be compassionate) you tend to get defensive as well.

[Rabrrrrrr]

14. You get offended when friends order meat?

I couldn't imagine doing that.

Why is the sensitivity a one-way street? Why must they go vegetarian when with you? Shouldn't you be sensitive to their dietary choices as well? Why don't you go meat-eater when you're with them? Especially if they're the majority?

I say - order what you want, and let them order what they want.

I'd be pissed if a friend of mine bitched about my choice of food, for any reason beyond that meal actually posing (however miraculously) an immediate health risk to the person complaining (such as me ordering nuts when with someone who is deadly allergic to 'em, etc. - which is the appropriate reason not to smoke around non-smokers).

I think someone needs to check their own insensitivity level.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. i agree

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. Hey - aren't you supposed to be on your way to India?

Or are you still book shopping?

:evilgrin:

And thanks for agreeing with me! And not going ballistic at the Easter Dim Sum fest because of a few of us were so outlandishly and intentionally insulting you by eating outside your choice of foods. :-)

:yourock:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. lol....you bastard vegetarians...india is at the end of the month

[justiceischeap]

17. First off, you're assuming I bitch to my friends about it

I don't. It disappoints me is all but I don't force my views on them nor do I give them a hard time about it but I was just being honest and answering the question, it bothers me.

I choose not to eat meat because of the cruelty that goes along with it and my friends know my opinions because we're friends and we talk. I never bring up the subject they do, they ask the questions.

[Rabrrrrrr]

21. well, whether it's an active "bitching" or being "offended"

it's the same thing, just a matter of degree.

I'm glad to hear that you don't chastise them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. I'm with you, Rabrrrrrr

When I was in grad school, I was in a singing group with a vegan, which was even more unusual then than it is now.

When we went on tour, she would give us a hard time about what we ordered in restaurants, and she would harangue the waitress for such sins as bringing her butter for her toast or milk for her oatmeal. (Remember, in the 1970s, hardly anyone had heard of veganism.)

That kind of "food police" attitude did nothing but inspire the rest of us to order cheese omelettes with a side of bacon and buttered toast.

My feeling is that people should eat what they want to eat and not get all righteous about it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. LOL!

Yeah, if I was with a person like that, I'd be ordering the steak and eggs and as much as meat and meat product as I could.

Which is sad, because I'm also quite happy to eat vegetarian. It's not my first choice, but I often do anyway. Doesn't bother me at all.

But if I were with that idiot, I'd be ordering meat all the time just to piss her off.

[driver8]

42. Oh so "holier than thou"...

I would tell her to go fuck herself.

My wife and I were at a birthday party for a friend being held at a Mexican restaurant. There was one annoying girl there who kept saying out loud how she didn't eat meat or dairy. So, her meal comes and there is sour cream on the side and she goes into this rage -- shouting at the waiter that she "told him she didn't eat dairy", blah, blah, blah.

We were all embarassed and wanted to kill this girl as she ruined the whole party for everyone. As one of my friends was leaving, he ordered her a glass of milk at the bar and had it sent over to her.

I think she got the message...

[AlienGirl]

44. Would it have bothered you as much if

she kept kosher and the kitchen had sent her a strip of bacon with her meal?

If not, why?

Tucker

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Well, I once had dinner with a man who, while not strict kosher,

avoided eating trayf, and the salad that came with the dinner had miniature shrimp on it.

He quietly called the waiter over, explained that he couldn't eat shrimp, and asked for a new salad without it.

That's the mature way to deal with unwanted foods turning up in a restaurant meal.

[driver8]

50. thank you, Lydia...

That is what we all thought, also. We didn't think it was fair that she yell at the waiter and make a big scene. She could have pulled him aside and explained the problem. I'm sure the problem would have been taken care of. Instead, we were all subjected to the continuous drama of this girl's diet.

[driver8]

49. kosher...

The fact that she didn't eat dairy wasn't what bothered me. The thing that bothered me is that while we were all sitting there having drinks and looking at the menu, all we heard from this girl was, "She doesn't eat meat or dairy" and "She doesn't eat anything with a face" and "Animals have souls and we shouldn't eat them." We didn't give a shit that she was a vegetarian. What we didn't like was listening to this constant lecture about eating meat and being made to feel like we were some sort of criminals because we were eating steak tacos.

I don't care what someone's dietary preferences are...but don't lecture me at a friend's birthday party in a public restaurant when you are an invited guest just like me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

59. Dietary preference is irrelevant here

Histrionics and inappropriate behavior are the issue.

Anyone who goes off on an emotionalistic knee-jerk asshole jihad is an asshole. Plain and simple.

Any sane, sufficiently human person would have handled it in a gentle manner, done it quietly, and not made an issue of it.

[bloodyjack]

45. .

[Rabrrrrrr]

73. Mmmm. Cat is best when served live.

:evilgrin:

[porkrind]

60. Why is the sensitivity a one-way street?

Exactly.

[Deja Q]

53. Compassionate toward animals, but mean toward other humans?

Smoking is one thing, but unless eating a savory slice of critter has the same toxic qualities as second hand smoke, please forgive me for my naivity, I don't see the correlation.

In utter seriousness: When it comes to food consumption, we all feed on death. It's a ridiculous argument. Next we'll develop a bunch of pills and have pillans who run around saying that eating a plant is discompassionate too. And plants, in their own way, are intelligent too.

It's a universal constant: We all feed from other life. We feed on death. And if we don't, we die. There is no escaping it.

Your apparent open-hostility to meat-eaters only proves that the circle of death goes beyond comestible consumption.

I have no malice toward vegans. I have none toward meat eaters. I have none to smokers. I wish more places would do what my local Perkins did and encase the smoking area with state of the art enclosed air conditioning facilities. Fair for all. No fuss. No muss.

[eoberhauser]

56. my boyfriend and I are both vegetarian

neither one of us would ever get mad about eating meat. we choose not to, but have no bearing on what others do. it would be great if noone ate meat, but i see it as a sacrifice. i'm making mine, and people will make theirs. i'm not really one to get my panties in a bunch. just ignore the haters!

erin

[Seabiscuit]

57. Step back, take a deep breath, and try putting yourself in their shoes.

They like meat. You don't like meat. They're not posting on public forums about you calling you inconsiderate because you're insensitive to their liking meat.

As for being judgmental, calling your friends inconsiderate is very judgmental.

Can you cite a study that the sight of meat or the smell of meat being consumed by someone else may cause emphysema, heart disease, or cancer? If not, you might want to rethink your smoking analogy.

[Rabrrrrrr]

61. Hee hee hee - beautifully said!

[Seabiscuit]

64. Why, thank you. However, I must confess to being pretty out of it and

confused regarding the vegetarian phenomenon.

First of all, I never heard the term "vegan" (or is it spelled "Vegan") until I saw those self-described "vegans"/"Vegans" on Wife-Swap or Trading Spouses or whatever it was a month or so ago- at first I didn't get the message clearly - I thought they were talking about being some interplanetary creatures out of Star Trek or something - like it was a hobby or fad. I was expecting them to come out of the closet in space suits or something. I mean, I was really thinking Dr. Spock and all - Vulcan/Vegan/Trekkie - were Vegans Vulcans in drag? Or a variety of Trekkie?

Then I finally got the connection to food and vegetables and I felt really, really dumb. Then after seeing how self-righteous and rude and hostile and proselytizing they were, I got really scared - because they said they lived in La Jolla, just 10 miles from my house! Eeek! OK, this was just a dumb TV show.

Second, I had some friends decades ago who said they were "vegetarians" and I understood what they meant - that they didn't eat meat or poultry or fish. Fine.

Then about a decade or so ago I had some friends who referred to vegetables as "veggies". Pretty cutesy, I thought to myself.

Now on this thread I see both vegetarians and vegetables being referred to as "veggies" by vegetarians and vegans alike.

Some questions: when did a vegetarian become a vegan? When did a vegetable become a veggie? And when did a vegetarian vegan become a veggie? If a vegetable is a veggie and a vegetarian is a veggie, is a vegetable a vegetarian or vice-versa? Final question: What's wrong with this picture???

We're truly living in confusing and confounding times. It was all so simple when people who ate vegetables to the exclusion of meat, poultry and fish, were simply "vegetarians", and a vegetable was just a vegetable.

I think Freud started us all down the wrong path when he said: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". That made us wonder what else it could be and that therefore there are times when a cigar isn't a cigar. When is a vegetarian only a vegetarian, and when is a vegetarian either a vegan or a veggie? When is a vegetable only a vegetable, and when is it a veggie, and when is a veggie not a vegetable but a vegetarian? See what I mean?

::GAAAACK!!!::

[Rabrrrrrr]

72. The varoius terms help separate the various kinds of vegetarianism

And I haven't been able to keep track of them.

But in reverse order of strictness:

there are the totally strict and pure vegetarians who also don't eat eggs, or dairy products, or anything that comes from an animal. I think these are the vegans.

There are the lacto-ovo vegetarians who don't eat meat, but do eat the eggs and dairy.

And the vegetarians who also eat fish and/or seafood.



And then the real extreme ones: the raw food eaters, the Vegans who also don't cook anything.

[Seabiscuit]

78. Thanks. No wonder I was so confused. Kind of like the evolution of

computers. It all changes faster than you can afford to keep up with it all.

BTW - what does "lacto-ovo" mean - milk and eggs?

And what's with referring to both vegetables and vegetarians as "veggies"? Do "veggies" have any particular regime that distinguishes them?

Way back when there were just "vegetarians" seafood was also verboten but some ate eggs/dairy and some didn't. So early on there was already some divergence.

I was unaware of Vegans who refuse to cook anything. I prefer most of my fruit and vegetables raw as well, but what about potatoes and rice? Do they eat raw potatoes and rice? And how about apple or berry pies? Do they just avoid all that stuff? And bread? Bread isn't even bread if it isn't cooked. It's just gooey dough.

[Rabrrrrrr]

82. Yes, lacto-ovo is dairy-egg

I've not heard the term veggies applied to people, though I've long heard it applied to vegetables. So long that I would assume that term has been around for eons.

The raw food people - at least the real serious ones - as far as I know don't eat anything even made by animals, so the pies and stuff are out (no butter), and they don't process food at all, so the pies and stuff are out again (no flour, no refined sugar, etc.), and there'd be no worry about having to eat bread as just bread dough, since they couldn't make it to begin with. Potatoes would be eaten raw, as well as all other fruits and veggies.

Though you'd do better to do a google search and get actual facts, I'm also assuming that there's no eating of rice or dried beans, either, since they need to be cooked. But it's possible they might do that, since those are foods that are impossible to eat without cooking, so it might be okay to cook in those cases.

I do remember reading one time of one group of raw foodies that were against hot beverages, like coffee and tea.

[Seabiscuit]

85. A bit confusing, isn't it?

"I've not heard the term veggies applied to people...."

Check out the first post in this thread. It begins: "So, my hubby is a veggie." It goes on in the second paragraph: "And then I wonder why some vegetarians/vegans I know get mad that I/my hubby aren't full-on veggies."

Then scroll down to post number 6: "Here in Los Angeles it is much more accepted to be veggie and thank goodness the restaurants offer lots of veggie choices." Well, in the first clause the poster is talking about it being more accepted "to be a veggie", than talks about restaurants which "offer lots of veggie choices". The latter part seems to blur the distinction - are "veggie choices" choices for people who are "veggies" or choices among different "veggies" (aka vegetables) for people who are vegetarians?

Then see post number 11: "The more important question is how you married a veggie!"

Then post number 12: "i know and love lots of veggies and a few vegans." and goes on to talk about "...cooking more 'veggie-ish' lately."

Then post number 13: "My bf is mostly veggie."

Post number 25 has a new twist: "I'm veg..."

Post number 58 is from a meat-eater talking about vegetables: " am a meat-eater, I also procure my own meat, fish, veggies when time allows."

Post number 65 talks about others being veggies: "So when I was a vegetarian for a time, it would slightly peeve me if someone was like 'oh, I'm a veggie too' and then order chicken."

Reading this thread is, honestly, my first exposure to the custom of a vegetarian referring not only to vegetables as "veggies" but to people as "veggies". I gather it's become an insider word of endearment. I'm just curious about when this practice began, because I've known vegetarians at different times in my life and never heard that expression used that way before.

Thanks for your insights on the other subjects.

I'm genuinely concerned, because if I meet another vegetarian and invite him/her/them over for dinner, I want to have some grasp of what to cook.

[Rabrrrrrr]

86. Well, yes, I realized veggie was used in this thread

I meant, outside of this particular thread, I've never heard the term used, other than to mean vegetables.

I started a while ago, after getting to know a number of varieties of vegetarians, that when I invite people to my place for dinner I always ask about food allergies and if they are vegetarian. And if they are vegetarian I have to find out what all the specifics are: whether they'll eat fish, shellfish, dairy, eggs, chicken (as someone mentioned above, some vegetarians will eat chicken), and/or broth made from an animal. It gets confusing, and it seems like some vegetarians (especially new ones) also don't really know what all the different nomenclature means, and so they might not self-identify properly: which is why I ask them specifcially "What do you eat, what don't you eat?"

[Seabiscuit]

87. Yes, outside of this thread

I'd never heard "veggie" used to refer to a person either. I wonder if it was just a flash-in-the pan DU thread type thingy. Or are there really people who talk like that about themselves?

And you're right, it really shouldn't be particularly difficult fixing a meal for a vegetarian - just ask them what they like. And I like enough different foods that it wouldn't hurt me a bit limiting my intake to my guests' preferred foods during such a visit.

[Rabrrrrrr]

89. I did a formal many-course dinner last month,

and in the invitations I sent out, I included space in the response cards for "I am allergic to..." and for special dietary needs, such as vegetarian.

So, when the dinner time came, I was able to subsitute vegetarian options for the parts of the meal that included meat or meat products.

It went off without a hitch, even though I had two different kinds of vegetarians, and meat eaters.

[Seabiscuit]

90. Wow. Now THAT's what I call being a "good host"!

[grace0418]

75. Smoking is a weird analogy

It's inconsiderate to smoke around non-smokers because your smoke can give them life-threatening cancer. Unless you've got scientific proof of second-hand steak giving someone cancer, your argument makes little sense.

I agree that meat-eaters getting pissed at veg/vegans is stupid. And it would be very inconsiderate if your friends invited you over for dinner and served nothing but steak, mashed potatoes with butter and cheese, and salad with bacon bits. But it is equally inconsiderate for you to get offended at your friends' dinner choices if you're in a restaurant where you are free to choose a vegan meal for yourself.

[DrGonzoLives]

84. So everyone must conform to your beliefs?

Who's inconsiderate now?

[RagingInMiami]

88. That's fucking ridiculous

Do you get offended when your friends wear clothes that you wouldn't wear?

[Cha]

4. Doesn't make me mad..and I'm

a Vegan..people can eat what they want to eat. I don't think Vegetarianism is for everyone..different blood types.

Some may get pissed cause they take it personally when animals are eaten. And others might think you are questioning their eating animals when you don't..just guesses!

[Lenape85]

5. It's an issue with my parents too

They hate the fact that I am a vegetarian

[Beaverhausen]

6. Here in Los Angeles it is much more accepted to be veggie

and thank goodness the restaurants offer lots of veggie choices.

But I still think, though I have made a choice about what I eat, that it is personal and I try not to bother those who still eat meat.

[Piperay]

20. Same here

it was my choice to be different and not eat meat. I let other people do their own thing as long as they don't dump on me for not eating meat.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. I've never understood the venomous response of some meateaters

toward vegetarians. I can understand it if it's toward the judgmental, nasty, self-righteous vegetarians.

But I remember even my parents thinking that vegetarians must be some sort of unholy or something.

"Oh, Christ, they don't eat meat - what the hell am I supposed to serve them? Vegetables? How rude."

:shrug:

And growing up in Wisconsin, I saw that bad attitude toward vegetarians a lot, and I never understood it. It wasn't just simple disagreement, but a sense that the vegetarian must be really, really unwilling to enter into any part of civilized American society. Like it was a total moral failure, or perhaps even an insult to God.

I don't know why. probably because so many vegetarians were hippies and intellectuals.

[DrWeird]

8. They're afraid the the vegetarians will take their meat away.

Kind of like a dog with a bone.

[Zomby Woof]

32. I worked with a lot of militant vegetarians in Seattle

Instead of letting everyone be, we would be sitting around at lunch eating our meat sandwiches, and they would make themselves feel better about each other by purposely talking out loud in their own 'private chat' about how long meat stays in the colon, etc. How bad it is, etc.

But I have never been around meat-eaters who passed judgment on vegetarians (I know plenty of live-and-let-live vegetarians/vegans), so who knows? I suppose there are some, and they would be as wrong as the kind of vegetarians I condemn.

[Rowdyboy]

10. Eating preferences are like sexual preferences.....

As long as mine cause you no harm, they're none of your business. I intend to continue to eat anything I like (except veal and pate) until the Bushistas lock me up and start feeding me soylent green. However, I have nothing but respect for people who choose not too. Deciding how to fuel your body is intensely personal, and different people should be free to eat whatever they like, without criticism or judgementalism.

That said, I always get a kick out of the annual holiday LTTE urging "to-furky" and veggies for all! Dream on. Southerners love their vegetables, but as a side dish not the main course.

[Biased Liberal Media]

19. I completely agree. Soylent Green, heh...

[HamdenRice]

11. The more important question is how you married a veggie!

I mean with this gay marriage stuff, man marrying man, woman marrying woman, as Senator Santorum warned us the next thing was man marrying dog or man marrying horse!

And here you go and say you've married a veggie. What kind? Don't tell me you married a carrot! Or an eggplant!

I can probably come to terms with interspecies marriages within the same kingdom (member of animal kingdom marrying member of animal kingdom, like person and chimp) but inter species marriages between kingdoms (woman of animal kingdom and eggplant of plant kingdom), well it's just too much!

[hollywood926]

22. LOL!

I never type LOL, but you deserve an LOL. :-)

[rene moon]

80. LOL!

hahaha!!!

[fluffernutter]

12. i know and love lots of veggies and a few vegans.

i have no problem with it, and have myself been cooking more "veggie-ish" lately. i have noticed that people have a problem with it, and why is a mystery to me.

[sbj405]

13. Question for you

Do you refer to yourself as a vegetarian? I work with a woman who calls herself vegetarian, but eats meat. That drives me crazy.

I am a vegetarian. My bf is mostly veggie, but eats chicken when out also. I don't really have a problem with it. It's a personal choice that I have made for health and ethical reasons. I won't prepare or buy meat in my home, but I am not really going to force my beliefs on him.

[rene moon]

81. No, i dont

I just say that when I am at home, I eat vegetarian and when I go out, I sometimes eat chicken.

[Schema Thing]

16. That you do things differently than I, is an affront to my very being.

How dare you!?

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. I think that's a big part of the attitude.

It's the people having the assumption that whatever they are, is the only proper way to be. Well call them People A. So anyone different isn't just different, but actually saying that People A's very being is wrong, because People A aren't able to make the mental and intellecual leap to realize that there might be more than one proper way to be a person.

I seriously think that's one of the reasons why so many people hate gays, atheists, and non-christian people from foreign countries.

[fluffernutter]

39. ita.

[AlienGirl]

25. I'm veg, and I get the outraged response often

When people first find out I'm vegetarian, they'll often try to push my buttons be either telling me about their deeee-licious steak, or else go off on "carrots feel pain too." :shrug:

I've learned that the easiest thing to do with the delicious-steak comments is vividly describe a Tempehstrami sandwich or the joys of braised tofu, and to the silly carrots-feel-pain people I just roll my eyes and say, "Mmm, screaming carrot."

I don't care what people eat when they go out with me, as long as it isn't creepy live sushi. But then, I also don't care if people smoke around me (I'm a non-smoker) so I guess I'm just weird.

Tucker

[smbolisnch]

35. That's exactly it. I am vegan also, and I don't care what others do.

I get upset when people INTENTIONALLY try to upset veggies by talking about dead animals, showing pictures of them and making idiotic comments like PETA=People eating tasty animals. At that point, I just get pissed, like most veggies.

[Rob H.]

79. "Mmm, screaming carrot."

Nice! I'm going to use that one in the future. I haven't gotten any comments about plants feeling pain, but I get comments all the time from my friends like, "Mm, I'm gonna have me a hamburger. With bacon. And two different kinds of cheese."

Kinda deflates them when I say, "So? Follow it up with big, heaping handfuls of butter for all I care. I don't give a shit."

[WindRavenX]

26. my boyfriend (vegan) doesn't care I chose to eat meat occasionally

I don't eat red meat, but I do occasionally have a chicken dish. I have no problem eating veggie with him at home when we cook, but honestly, I get no venom from him on my choice not to be a vegetarian or vegan.
Like all things, your diet is a choice and I think that it's ridiculously stupid for BOTH carnivors AND veggies to attack each other.

[bloodyjack]

27. None of the vegetarians I know is ever offended by people eating meat

in front of him/her/it

I think people feel morally intimidated by vegetarians, though—because they secretly know in the darkest recesses of their withered black hearts that there isn't any moral justification for eating meat; just that it creates the slightest, vaguest possiblity that the universally applicable moral code by which they abide isn't quite airtight nags at what little they have left of conscience

I had to put with such stuff and nonsense when I was a kid—constantly fielding stupid questions like "what about plants, arent bacteria alive too, maybe you shouldnt eat bacteria hurrr hurrr" but that's what I got for my missionary fervor for vegetarianism. See, they understand I am taking a definitively principled stance, and interpret it as an indirect affront to their own values

That or they just think vegetarians are snooty or some stupid shit like that

[WindRavenX]

28. There isn't any moral justification...

...however, at the risk of a thread hijacking, I would like to note that both camps seem to present an image of perfect human diet that are not correct: those that eat meat try to argue that we were "made" for consuming large quantities of meat and those that are vegetarians argue the opposite. The biological reality is somewhere in the middle...
The snooty vegetarian tag though is really grating on my nerves- none of the vegetarians I know (and actually that's most of my friends) act snooty.

[bloodyjack]

31. You are correct, neither diet is NECESSARILY healthier

And as far as the unfortunate stereotype about vegetarians goes: I blame rap music and violent video games

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. actually i disagree

i openly agree that vegetarianism is more moral. i still want no part of it. (its not in dark recesses). i dont condemn those who do or those who dont practise it.

[bloodyjack]

33. I'm not arguing that vegetarianism is more moral, though

I'm saying that there is no moral justification for eating meat

So if you think eating meat is less moral (or immoral), why do you do it?

If I sound like a blowhard, I apologize

I hope this thread doesn't turn into a shitfest

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. because i never claimed flawlessness

i dont have to be perfect to think i am a good person etc.

i dont care enough about chicken?


many different reasons...but its not something i am defensive about...there are good things in the world, every individual ignores...this is my thing.

[Seabiscuit]

68. Huh???

"I think people feel morally intimidated by vegetarians, though—because they secretly know in the darkest recesses of their withered black hearts that there isn't any moral justification for eating meat; just that it creates the slightest, vaguest possiblity that the universally applicable moral code by which they abide isn't quite airtight nags at what little they have left of conscience."

Is it just me or does that all sound hugely condescending? I'm not a vegetarian. Therefore I have a "withered black heart" and the moral code by which I abide nags at what little I have left of conscience????

I didn't know I needed a "moral justification" for eating meat. I was born human with incisors. And I just plain like it. It's just an eating preference, that's all. I like all kinds of foods in moderation.

"That or they just think vegetarians are snooty or some stupid shit like that"

Nah, I don't think vegetarians in general are "snooty". But anyone who makes the kind of morally condescending remarks in the first quote above is the embodiment of "snooty".

[Tafiti]

94. Sorry to butt in, just wanted to offer my 2 cents.

Putting the vegetarian argument on a moral platform is unjustified; that is a product of "civil society." If "morals" are some sort of transcendent code of behavior, then applying it to vegetarianism is utterly meaningless. Life feeds on life - this is a necessary and natural compenent of life itself. A million(?) years ago, when homo sapiens sapiens first began to appear, was it morally unjustified to catch, kill, and eat an animal? We're still the same animals that we were back then, only 'smarter'(are we?). Is it "wrong" for a lion to catch, kill, and eat a hyena? Why not? Why are we held to a different standard? Are we not also mammals? Or did it become wrong when humans "progressed" from hunter-gatherers to civilization? This makes no sense to me.

Having said that, I do think the process by which we get our meat is insanely torturous and cruel. I respect all life, and would never advocate cruelty of any kind to an animal. Ideally, obtaining meat through "humane" and respectful means would be best. That's what I would advocate.

As it happens, I have absolute respect for vegans and vegetarians, and for reasons stated above, always hope that the core of their meat abstention is essentially a "boycott" to the practices/procedures the meat-packing industry operates under, and not because it's "morally wrong" to eat an animal. Again, to me, meaningless.

[Zomby Woof]

30. The double-standard bothers me

As a carnivore, and more importantly, as a freethinker, I would never dream of telling people what they should eat.

Plus, there is this assumption that I make my choice because I am ill-informed or such.

I would just like the same consideration I give others about their dietary choices.

[Left Is Write]

36. I have no idea.

Eat what you want to eat. Don't let other people get to you. (Easier said than done, I know.)

[amazona]

38. It isn't not sure why you're having this problem

I was a vegetarian for several years for health reasons. No one was venomous or hostile. I can't remember once having a problem with someone over it. <shrug>

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[AlienGirl]

43. Were you always careful to point out it was for health reasons?

Most meat-eaters have no problem with people who are vegetarian purely for health reasons; but if you leave it unspecified, or if they ask you, "Why?" and you say, "Ethics," they'll jump down your throat like...um...like...what jumps down throats? :shrug: Anyway, you get the point.

Tucker

[amazona]

47. yes because I didn't want to be fussed over

If someone noticed and asked, I would tell them what I was doing, but my goal was not to be noticed. Most people who knew me well couldn't help but see that I always got the cheese dish though.
(In those days, vegan/low fat didn't exist and I would have starved to death had I gone low fat if it had! :-) )

The worst part was not the reaction of other people because I will be honest...in those days (late 80s, early 90s) people were pretty cool.

The awful thing was, for lack of a better word, the withdrawal. I experienced severe pain, depression, and mood swings that cannot be easily described. I think there were more artificial hormones or other additives in meat in those days, and getting away from it really did wonders for my allergy/asthma/respiratory disease.

On Edit -- My partner reminds me that withdrawal from meat made me relentlessly horny. But...no sex threads so that is all I will say about that except that it was a weird compulsive needy sexuality that was fun but you wouldn't want to be like that forever.

But it played hell with my mood and personality. I had to keep reminding myself that these strong, strange feelings were NOT the real me.

Very spooky.

But, yeah, my friends and family were GREAT. When I think back on what they put up with, not really understanding, I'm damn impressed.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[AlienGirl]

54. That's why no one ever gave you trouble for it.

[da_chimperor]

40. I have meat cravings. If I don't eat it often enough I daydream of steak

I think I'd rather eat only meat than have to give it up.

[amazona]

48. I never had cravings

It was strange. I went three years and I really just did not care.

Then one day I had been well for so long that I just "knew" that it was OK to eat meat. I started with seafood. And it was. I didn't go back to eating meat daily right away -- you can't, it won't stay down -- but I was able to eat and enjoy it again and not be ill. I worked my way back slowly -- mostly seafood, then chicken, then beef. Now I can even eat pork and properly digest and enjoy it.

I still try to have vegetarian days. I think it's good to keep my digestion system open to all possibilities. But if my old problems returned, I wouldn't hesitate to go vegetarian again.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Deja Q]

51. A vitamin B12 deficiency changed me back to a muscle depredator

:9

B12 can only be found in succulent yummy animal meat, fortified grain products (so it's now okay to eat Lucky Charms as a staple component to one's diet :eyes: ), or pills (like those you see in every dated b-level sci-fi nonsense ever written!)

[RebelOne]

65. I'm a vegetarian and I take Vitamin B12 supplements.

Seems to work fine for me.

[Gothic Sponge]

52. I've been a vegetarian for almost 18 years.

I would never get offended if someone ordered meat in front to me. I'm not that militant.

[LeftyMom]

55. I'm vegan, LeftyDad is omni

He eats what I'm preparing at home, but he'll occasionally have a little dairy in the house. He eats meat more often than not when he eats out, but sometimes isn't in the mood for it. This is a big improvement for a midwestern steak and potatoes with a gravy chaser type. Since he knows the risks involved I respect his right to make a desision, even if I disagree with it.

I'v only heard one obnoxious vegetarian lay into someone about what they were eating but she was the sort of person that would've attacked someone for thier clothes or thier music or thier politics or something if no peperoni was on hand to offend her. Since I had misfortune of eating with the same b*** a month or two later, I was a bit surprised to discover that self rightous "vegetarians" eat lobster. At least nobody boiled the pig alive to make that pepperoni. :eyes:

[Dave Reynolds]

58. I am never offended by what...

..people eat or do not eat. My life is enough to keep me from worrying about other's. I am a meat-eater, I also procure my own meat, fish, veggies when time allows.

I consider myself an omnivore.

Sometimes folks from either end of the spectrum get REALLY irate with each other, but I think we would be better off not slamming each other for dietary choice (and all of the related "where things come from and how they come from" shit) and finding something important to slam each other over, like Kerry-bashing......:crazy:

[tjdee]

62. You're not a vegetarian if you're eating chicken.

In my view, vegetarian means NO meat. No fish, no chicken, maybe eggs. So when I was a vegetarian for a time, it would slightly peeve me if someone was like "oh, I'm a veggie too" and then order chicken. It wasn't so much a hostility issue as...the similar feeling when someone does an apostrophe s for a plural.

So maybe when you feel they're offended that's what they're feeling?

I did find that meat eaters thought I was being precious and ultra hippie when they found I wasn't eating meat, like :eyes: I'm going to have to cook different meals, here we go.

I can't someone being full on hostile because of a thing like this--what do they care what you eat, I mean, are they going to stock your refrigerator?

[tjwmason]

69. I love the 's analogy

I've come across lots of claiming to be vegetarians who eat fish.

One thing which irritates me is when people see me not eating meat and call me a vegetarian. As a Catholic with a fair few traditional views, I don't eat meat on Fridays; some people who know me have said 'you're vegetarian on Fridays' to which I answer no I'm not. As I see it, vegetarianism is an ethical stance which opposes the consumption of meat, I have no such stance.

Also, I frequently don't eat meat just out of choice. I eat what tastes good, that includes meat, it includes vegetable dishes too.

[njdemocrat106]

63. I say eat what you like and be happy

I myself do eat meat, but if you live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle and are happy with it, all the more power to you! I do know a few people who I would call "militant carnivores" that say they are turned off by the vegetarians and vegans "holier than thou" attitude towards meat-eaters (I'm just quoting a friend, please don't get upset at me). Eat whatever you enjoy and feel comfortable with, because eating is one of the best parts of life! (By the way, I had baked ziti in marinara sauce with mozzarella and ricotta cheeses for dinner; while not vegan, I believe it would be considered vegetarian, right?)

[SoCalDem]

66. I have friends who are veggies, and they never have problems with it.

Of course they don't "make an issue" of their vegetarianism. They just order the veggie plate, and enjoy what they ordered. They do not comment on the "icky meat" that others are eating.

When they come to a friend's house, they just eat the parts they can, and politely offer the rest to the others, or let the hostess know in advance that they do not eat meat..

No one has had a awkward moment with my two veggie pals :)

[Rhiannon12866]

67. I don't know, either, but I do find that I'm shocked when people order

meat. I guess that I just figure that most people feel as I do, but most people just never think about this, though they may really love animals, as most of my friends do.:shrug:

It shouldn't be an issue, if someone chooses not to order meat, but I do understand why it is one if someone chooses to eat meat. Many of us deplore the slaughter of animals for food, when it's far from necessary and not even a healthy food choice. But I'm not always vegetarian, nor vegan, since I love cheese, so I understand where you're coming from. I do, occasionally, eat chicken or fish.:-(

You might re-post this thread in this new DU forum. I promise that you'll find kindred spirits there.:-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=231

[Phentex]

71. And just where is the Meat Lovers/Red Meat/White Meat support board?

Oh wait, we have a cooking and baking group. That'll do.

Hey, I am an animal lover as well. You don't have to be vegan to love animals.

[Rhiannon12866]

74. I don't think that this group need support, since they are the majority

And the cooking and baking group supports all kinds of menu decisions. Welcome!:toast:

[flvegan]

70. Here's my take:

With some vegetarians/vegans, they see a person eating meat as participating in something in which they have an overwhelming concern or passion about.

I, for one, am vegan, and am not offended if I'm out to eat and someone orders a steak. I agreed to eat with you, surrounded by others (likely eating meat), and a friendly dinner isn't the forum for that discussion. I hope to someday partake in a DU get together, and I'd be a complete (and selfish) idiot if I expected or thought they'd all eat a vegetarian meal. The only deviation from this would be in the case of veal. I won't eat somewhere that they even serve it, nevermind sit with someone who eats it.

[ClassicDem]

76. Simple...

It's the I'm right your wrong preschool mentality, unfortunately people are being more and more conditioned to be less tolerant in the name of tolerance.

The hardest thing that I have ever done in life is to accept the fact that there is not just one truth and my position on a matter is quite possibly the wrong one.

[Runcible Spoon]

77. ya wanna know what's REALLY HARD to deal with?

telling people you only eat organic and ethically raised meat, and that otherwise you're essentially a lacto-ovo vegetarian. My parents call it "righteous meat" as in, "it's OK, you can eat it, it's righteous". :) But going over to dinner at my boyfriend's house for the first few times was awkward. "Do you eat meat?" "errr, kinda, kinda not, umm...."...and I can imagine people thinking I'm being all high and mighty, "oh she only eats organic meat not this crap I bought, cooked, and served to my loved ones". I didn't want to tell them that I was vegetarian or vegan, because they would eventually have dinner at my parent's house, where "righteous meat" is served quite often for semi-special occasions.

[Dastard Stepchild]

83. I've never met anyone that had a problem with my veganism...

Likely because I never say anything as the person is tucking into a slab of meat. Not that I'm not THINKING something... I just keep it to myself. Prevents a lot of unnecessary bickering. :)

I've only had one person say to me "What about the carrots? Don't they have feelings too?" I think I feigned a very weak chuckle, made a kind of "oh, yeah" sound and left the room.

[H3Dakota]

91. One of my funnier moments...

I actually had a guy I dated a couple of times tell me that in order to keep dating him, I had to either 1) go on the Pill or 2) start eating meat!!! Needless to say, we did NOT have a third date. LOL

I deal with all kinds of people on a daily basis. Some joke with me, the same stale jokes about meat eaters and/or vegetarians... some are quite aggresive & make a point of going out of their way to describe in full detail their dinner from the night before. Am I militant about my vegetarianism? Nope! But I sure as hell don't want to hear how your steak oozed all over your plate when you cut into it, either - and these folks usually tell me this stuff when they see me eating - and yes, they do this because they know that I am a vegetarian. Is that rude? Hell yes, it is! Talk about "in your face" rude behavior! Do I blast them for it? No - I calmly tell them that I'd prefer it if they would refrain from telling me stuff like that. Never works, though. *sigh*

Is ordering meat when out to lunch or dinner with me rude? Nope, doesn't bother me. That is not "in your face" kind of behavior at all. Now, I can't look directly at the plate, especially when it is something like crab legs or rare beef... but I don't get angry nor belligerant with anyone for it. My beliefs are my beliefs & your beliefs are yours.

What does amaze me is that I never preach to anyone about vegetarianism - yet just about every day, I have someone trying to convince me that my beliefs are wrong.

[Coexist]

92. My stepmother (who is very overweight and on several meds)

quietly resents the fact that I am a vegetarian. I never say a word about what she eats, and I never would. Those are her choices. But every time we go out to dinner, she says to everyone, "I know >>>>> will have a cow, but I am going to order veal." Then she tries to convince my children to try it. The are not vegetarians, but are not at all interested in eating veal, so they don't exactly appreciate Grandma's pushing. I do cook meat for my hubby and kids occasionally. I actually make ribs that are famous in my neighborhood.

Back to the story - The only time I truly got upset, is one time we went to her house to eat. Her (and my equally overweight and fully medicated Dad) always have meat, and I never care. I always bring a package of veggie burgers and leave the extras for the next time.

Well this time, she told me that she was making spaghetti and salad for dinner. I was really happy, because I could finally eat the same dinner as the rest of the crowd. Well, she served meat sauce and put salami and ham in the salad. Now, that was so totally passive-agressive that it pissed me off - the first and only time I have ever cared what someone else put on the table.

As you can tell, it still bothers me. But - on whole - I have found more meat eaters that give me a hard time than vegetarians who give meat eaters a hard time. That has been my experience.

[H3Dakota]

95. Wow, that's really tough

My father & my former in-laws were all VERY supportive of my choice - they *always* made sure they had vegetarian meals on hand for me. My mother wasn't, though.

I'll never forget the time she made some dish, which her & Dad alway made vegetarian for me in the past. This night, she was really "prickly", kind of pissy with me for whatever reason... informs me AFTER I ate that she'd made it with chicken broth instead that night.

After I went & puked, I quietly gathered my stuff & left. *shaking head*

[semillama]

93. I used to not eat cheese

That confused EVERYONE.

"How can you not like cheese?"

I just didn't like it.



now, i do like cheese. go figure.



I still don't like fish though.