Is my 5 year old neighbor transgendered?

[mondo joe]

Ever since she was 3 she's insisted she's a boy.

For her birthday last year she wanted a sports jacket and tie, which she received.

She wants her hair SHORT - and her parents have let her have a shortish haircut, though not as short as she'd prefer.

She appears quite untroubled by the whole thing - whenever anyone refers to the girls (there are several) she nicely reminds themn that she is a boy.

Whaddaya think - transgender or phase?

[sui generis]

1. maybe her parents are fucked up

they really really really wanted a girl. Poor little chap.

[mondo joe]

3. No - they're not fucked up. Not in that way, at least.

Sometimes they're obnoxious, but not in any sort of gender issue way.

[sui generis]

9. kidding about the parents

who knows? There are chromosomal irregularities that can lead to gender "confusion" too and other issues such as gender assignment at birth for babies who aren't clearly one sex or the other.

Probably the healthiest thing is to let her/him be who "he" wants to be. Anything else is like a square peg in a round hole. If it's a phase, it will resolve itself without help from the parents. If it's not, then there's nothing honest the parents can do about it anyway.

[ret5hd]

2. i'd vote for none of our business...

he/she might be one of those that are trapped in the wrong body, but really of no import except to /him/her.

[Fleshdancer]

4. its definately possible

what an interesting challange for the parents. It sounds like they don't have a problem with the situation but I wonder what will happen as she gets older. I can't begin to imagine how hard growing up is for people who are transgendered.

[mondo joe]

5. Up until now I'd have guessed phase. But as time goes on and

she cements herself as a boy I'm more inclined to think she may really be transgendered.

Fortunately it tends to be easier for biological female than biological males.

[Fleshdancer]

10. Really?

What tends to be easier for bio. females? The social aspect? Picked on less by peers? I could see that. It saddens me that so many people are ok with hating people they don't understand.

Well, phase or not, I hope this little 5 yr. old has a good, happy life.

[mondo joe]

13. It's easier for bio females in several ways

The "passing" is easier - and in fact you don't even have to "pass" to be a girl who dresses in "boy clothes".

In addition - I'm told by a physician with a number of transgender patients - biological females TEND to be less concerned with the actual genitalia than biological males, so less interest in actual surgery and so on.

[Fleshdancer]

16. very interesting.

I can definatly understand the passing part. I wonder why women are less concerned about the genitalia aspect. I would assume they would be more concerned with the appearance of breasts instead, right?

I am so ridiculously ignorant on this subject. I've only met one person who is transgendered and I had so many questions but I feared that my complete and utter ignorance would make me ask or say something offensive. I should probably read a book or something.

[CornField]

6. Short answer: You can't know at this point

My oldest went through a phase where she told everyone she was a boy. It started when she was about 3-4 and ended a couple of years later.

[Ilsa]

27. Yeah. My five year old is insisting he's a

doctor right now. I hope he doesn't attempt surgery on anyone or get arrested!

I know. Different subject. But little kids this age have wild imaginations sometimes.

[noonwitch]

7. I wonder

Does she have brothers? Do they get more freedom or privileges for being boys?

Freud was an idiot in the way he made some of his interpretations, like his penis envy theory. I don't think many women and girls envy men for having one (except when we really have to pee and there's no bathroom around), but women and girls do envy men's status in society-they get paid more, within families, they frequenty get more privileges and freedoms, they are more represented in power positions in politics and in business, etc.

[mondo joe]

8. Nope - not a darn thing to indicate male status in the family.

In fact it's a very gender neutral family.

[havocmom]

12. Agree with you. I have seen girls younger than 3 get pretty angry when

they notice the special privileges/attention male siblings get. Kids have an innate sense of justice and, though not yet versed in how to express outrage, they will try to call attention to it. I knew one young lady who, at four, dropped her kid sister's pacifier into her underpants, showed her mom and insisted she gets to be treated like her brother now cause she has a 'thing in her pants too'. The family set the boy child up like a little emperor and sorta missed a lot with the girls.

A four year old illustrated rather well what Fraud, err Freud, missed altogether.

[miss_kitty]

20. I think Freud was mistaken about 'Penis Envy' too

what he was REALLY seeing was 'Penis Pity'

[hyphenate]

11. Personally, I think it's a phase

I remember when I was growing up it seemed like the boys always had more fun than girls. We didn't have a whole heckuva lot of non-gender toys, and I absolutely abhorred dolls. In most of the books I liked to read, there were no strong female characters, either. When you're 5, the first thing you notice is that boys get the good stuff--the fun videogames, the skateboards, the attention of mom and dad (even though it's usually negative attention, it's attention, nevertheless!) and all that. Girls usually get sucky dolls, princess type stuff (blech!) and other such "feminine" nonsense. They aren't allowed to define themselves in another way, and that's what's so lousy about it.

If the girl is just emulating the boys for these reasons, she's gonna be fine in a few years, but sometimes if she really feels like she should be a boy and not a girl, then perhaps she would be able to take advantage of gender reassignment. (Funny you should bring it up--that's what last night's repeat of CSI was all about.)

[alarimer]

24. I had a phase like that

When I was that age. I played with trucks and cars and refused to play with dolls, though I was diven numerous barbies and a doll house. I was outraged!! Actually, though, I don't think I identified myself as a boy (but I did at one point want to be called Butch- I thought it was a cool name and I didn't know what it really meant!!). So I think I was basically a tomboy. Probably still am- hate the color pink and anything too "girly". So my guess is it may be a phase too but you never know.

[havocmom]

14. Another thing to consider, problems with the birth, or before, which

might have caused partial destruction of male genitalia. Sometimes not everything goes right and there are various problems which might occur. There are cases where male babies with gangrenous or otherwise life threatening problems relating to male parts are given a sex change immediately after birth. The thinking was/is that if a child is raised as one gender, that is how it will identify. Turns out to not be the case.

That little bit of experience for families and doctors should be enough to end the bullshit arguments that gays choose to be gay and want to 'recruit' youngsters. Seems it should show anybody with a brain that sexual identity and /or preference sure looks to be a natural part of an individual and not a learned behavior.

[mondo joe]

15. I'm not really looking for a CAUSE - more like wondering how

many years and how adamantly a kid sticks to it before you start to figure out it's more than a phase.

[havocmom]

21. But the cause is gonna be of considerable importance to the length of time

it persists. If it was a medically recommended castration, don't look for it to let up any time soon. If you don't think family/friends showing preferential treatment to males is a cause, then you might rule out anger or awareness that girls get the short end of the stick in America.

Just love and interact with the kid for who she is and stop marking days off a calendar regarding her behavior. Kids need to be who they are. If it doesn't fit with our views of how they should be, that is not the kid's problem, but our own. Maybe she views the Donald as her hero? Maybe she likes the tailored look. Some girls don't do frills. Maybe she just identifies as a male. Why the big worry?

[mondo joe]

30. Well, since I know there was no medical castration and since

I know her family life quite well, I'm just saying like a lot of people she is who she is.

I don't think it needs to be chalked up to a cause.

I am finding it interesting to observe someone that I think may very well be transgendered in childhood, since my only exposure previously has been to adults.

[Aiptasia]

17. or transsexual

You have to remember Eddie Izzard (the comedian) and his definition of transsexual: Male/Female tomboy. The sexuality part of it isn't where it's at for a transsexual.

For example, a boy can like women so much, and be so obsessed with women and their ways, that he dresses like them. Not gay per se, just so over-attracted to women that he becomes a tom-girl. Think of Johnny Depp's Portrayal of "Glen or Glenda" in Ed Wood for reference.

The opposite could be happening here, where she likes boys so much, she's clearly obsessing over them to the point of tom-boy. Not gay or transgendered per se, just over-attracted to boys and their ways.

I'm just giving you perhaps a third option to think about!

[zbdent]

18. Mrs. ZBDent played with Hot Wheels, race tracks, etc.

and didn't like Barbies when a kid. Also wondered why she had to wear a shirt when it was hot (she knew why, just didn't like it) for some time. Not sure how long. I came into her life when she was 23, and if she wanted to run around without a shirt, I wasn't complaining. (:evilgrin:)

However, she turned out to be as hetero as anybody. And I'm enjoying the benefits of that. (another :evilgrin:)

So, I would say that the kid's just being a kid. Let it play out. The kid will be much saner for it.

[elehhhhna]

23. Expert Mom here, and you're correct!

My oldest daughter insisted she was a boy from the ages of three to about 7. Short hair, NO girlie clothes, "Call me Steven, SOn of Dracula", "I'm Bob Saget", etc.-- a very imaginative child. We let it go. At that age it was no big deal with peers, and she's active, likes boy-stuff, sports, etc. She would even tell me, "Mom, I'm REALLY a girl but boys have more fun." (She got that from the media, subtle but constant).

Now she's 11, hormones in full swing, and she's --ta-da! a girl. Not a girly-girl, mind you, but her hair's long and she has a thing for Orlando Bloom.

Leave it alone.

[gollygee]

26. Another tomboy checking in here

I changed the spelling of my nickname to the masculine variety as soon as I knew the difference, never played with girl toys, dressed like a boy, etc. I'm straight but still a bit tomboyish I'd say.

On the other hand, my cousin was the same way and is a lesbian.

And the girl could of course be transgendered.

It's just too early to know. I'd say the parents shouldn't worry about it, and what is meant to happen will happen. Just accept her as she is.

[Senior citizen]

19. No, the child is not transgendered.

All the other little girls are in denial.

This IS still a patriarchal society. In order to have equal rights and treatment, you have to be, or appear to be male. Otherwise you are subject to more restraints, more criticism, more mockery, and a lot of unpleasantness, which everyone says you just have to suck up because you're a girl. Most do. A few don't. The key is that many so-called female-to-male transexuals aren't interested in genital surgery. All they want is equal rights and equal treatment, something the Constitution guarantees them in theory but not in practice.

Just listen to the scathingly contemptuous tone of a three- or four-year-old boy when he says of a peer, "She's a girl." You can pretend you don't hear it, pretend you don't care, insist that he (and every other little boy) is an idiot, or face the fact that you're living in an unfair world and fight for equal treatment.

By the way, if you take a close look at older couples, you'll find that there are a lot of them that appear to be two males, instead of the male and female couple that they are. That's because the female half, though totally heterosexual and happily married, has had it up to here with sexism and the male half of the couple agrees.

C'mon now--you know there are men who marry other men, so why shouldn't there be men who marry women who look like men? Gender roles have nothing to do with sex, except to mess up relationships when people marry the role and find themselves stuck with the person. A lot of people want companions, not showdogs. Now is definitely not the time to be worrying about a five-year-old's future sexual orientation or marriage prospects.

And if fighting for liberty and justice for all, including, of course, oneself, is a just a phase, how has DU lasted this long?

On edit: Here's a recent link that seems relevant:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3000614&mesg_id=3006177

Second edit: Insisting on referring to someone who prefers to be treated as a boy, as "she," is going to cause that child a lot of pain. It is the duty of the religious right to enforce patriarchal gender roles--and the duty of liberals to stand up for personal freedoms and preferences. There is no battle of the sexes--there is a battle of patriarchy against humanity. Which side are you on?

[alarimer]

25. Interesting

I did notice growing up that my brother (who is 7 years younger than I am) was treated (babied basically) very differently from my sister and I.

I have a nephew who is now 6 and a neice who is 5. They play a lot together. When they were younger (like maybe 4 and 3) they played dress-up in my sister's clothes. My nephew was so afraid of what his daddy would think (of him wearing a dress- even though they were just playing) that he begged my sister not to tell her husband. the point is I guess is that kids pick up adults' prejudices early. He knew somehow that my brother in law would not be pleased to have his son playing dress-up.

[sans qualia]

31. In lots and lots of cases

female-to-male transsexuals don't opt for genital surgery just because the results tend to be not that great. Suggesting that they're just in it for the privileges that come with being male serves only to trivialize their experience.

[crispini]

22. Could be either.

But my entire family knew my little brother was gay when he was really, really small. Like, first grade. He was just the queerest little boy ever. And we were right. So sometimes something like that IS very obvious from a young age.

[Arugula Latte]

28. My friend is starting to wonder about her boy

He is 4 1/2 and for quite a while now he's liked girl clothes, nail polish, hair accessories, pink clothing, etc. He said he wants to be a girl so he can have a ponytail.

(She has said she's talked to other parents who have said their sons went through a phase like that.)

Luckily, this boy was born into a very liberal, loving family, and they have already said they are just fine with him no matter how he "turns out."

[crispini]

29. When my little brother INSISTED on wearing his

pink tennis shoes to school, EVERY day, that was a definite "hmmmmm" for my family....

[Senior citizen]

32. One thing some people in this thread seem to be missing

is that some of the most stereotypically masculine men you'll ever meet are gay, and some of the most stereotypically feminine women you'll ever meet are lesbian. Gender expression is NOT necessarily an indicator of sexual orientation.

Unfortunately, when children are young, they form their primary identity based on who they're told they are, such as American, Mexican, Canadian, etc., Christian, Jewish, Moslem, etc. and even whether they're a boy or a girl, and they usually try to conform to it, although some feel uncomfortable enough to rebel. So when you make assumptions about the sexual orientation of a young child, you are giving that child a message that may or may not be correct. But the very fact that you are giving that child a message, could possibly have an effect on the child's development.

For information about gender expression and gender neutral parenting, try GenderPac, www.gpac.org