Is it really as bad, in the U.S, as I read/see on DU?

[Canadian Socialist]

As someone who does not have a T.V. or receive a daily newspaper, I get my news from the internet. I focus on CBC/Toronto Star, and places of that ilk. I also read/contribute to babble.ca as well as democraticunderground.com. But, I find myself wondering if I'm not becoming a victim of "group think". I try to read "opposing" views, i.e. Drudge report/National Post. But again, I wonder... am I getting the full story.

To make my point, as a Canadian, I can't believe that things could THAT bad in the U.S. As I haven't been down there for a while, I haven't talked to anyone from the U.S. to really gauge their mindset.

So, I am asking, is it as bad as I'm reading from DU? Or are you yelling, like Chicken Little, the sky is falling. It is very hard to understand that such a great country could have fallen so far in such a short time.

This is not a slag on Americans, by no means. I just need to know if I (we as Canadians) should be more afraid then we already are.

[alittlelark]

1. uh, yeah.... it is. n/t

[meisje]

2. we're all just fine, no matter what the woo woo's want you to think

[Canadian Socialist]

6. Who are the "woo woo"'s

As well, answering to a lower post, Sawyer is a sci-fi writer. I am asking for some hard data. Not that I don't love sci-fi. I just need some realistic answers. Again, I find it hard to imagine that such a great country could be brought so low. And, it worries me. Very much so, because, the mouse is living next to the elephant. If you get my drift.

[Bucky]

12. I'm not sure who the woo woos are... but it's not a simple situation

You won't get much nuance from a web discussion board. It's not like we're living under an actual fascist regime--despite the hyperbole around here sometimes to the contrary. The problem here is more what you'd find from reading what Tocqueville said about "the tyranny of the majority." The pressure to conform and not question what bad deeds the government does in our name, with our tax dollars, is subtle but pervasive.

We still have the right to speak out; many of us do and don't get rounded up like we would under a Mussolini (or a Castro). But the news media is under financial pressure not to cover the dissent, to undercount the rallies, to paper it over, to leave the opposition all irrelevant. The Constitution will survive George W Bush and a saner administration will come into office in three years to start cleaning up the mess. But Bush is reallly testing how far a president can go without respecting the will of the people or toward undermining the spirit and occasionally the letter of the law.

When you ask, "how bad is it?" I don't know what you're afraid of. Will we invade Canada? No. France? No again. The odds are probably off that we'll even go into Iran--the Bushies never pick fights with enemies that can put up a decent resistance. Like most bullies they're 80% bluff, 18% beat up on the little weaklings, and 2% better not corner them or they'll go nuts on ya. The only way to counter them is to keep up the pressure, keep playing the game, exploit every little weakness they show, and try and hold them accountable when you can.

The cost of liberty is eternal vigilence, Jefferson said. And the Bushes are proof that he's right.

[smartvoter]

3. It's just like your author Robert Sawyer depicts it... nt

[SmileyBoy]

4. We wouldn't fuck around on this subject towards others.

What you see is WHAT IS happening. THINGS ARE REALLY THAT BAD.

[Erika]

5. Yeah n/t

[gmoney]

7. It's pretty bad... "The Wasteland of the Free"

If for no other reason than the economic collapse that's almost overdue thanks to irresponsible tax cuts for the rich that have created huge deficits with no end in sight.

The effort to rid the US of a middle class is real, and is effective. It won't happen overnight, but the 10+ years since NAFTA haven't been kind to the citizens of the US, Canada, or Mexico, while the wealthy have made out like bandits. The WTO and the other "free trade" organizations are essentially an apparatus to privatize the governments of participating countries.

The voting fraud is real. The religious fervor is real. The health care crisis is real.

"Wasteland of the Free" by Iris DeMent

We got preachers dealing in politics and diamond mines
and their speech is growing increasingly unkind
They say they are Christ's disciples
but they don't look like Jesus to me
and it feels like I am living in the wasteland of the free

We got politicians running races on corporate cash
Now don't tell me they don't turn around and kiss them peoples' ass
You may call me old-fashioned
but that don't fit my picture of a true democracy
and it feels like I am living in the wasteland of the free

We got CEO's making two hundred times the workers' pay
but they'll fight like hell against raising the minimum wage
and If you don't like it, mister, they'll ship your job
to some third-world country 'cross the sea
and it feels like I am living in the wasteland of the free

Living in the wasteland of the free
where the poor have now become the enemy
Let's blame our troubles on the weak ones
Sounds like some kind of Hitler remedy
Living in the wasteland of the free

We got little kids with guns fighting inner city wars
So what do we do, we put these little kids behind prison doors
and we call ourselves the advanced civilization
that sounds like crap to me
and it feels like I am living in the wasteland of the free

We got high-school kids running 'round in Calvin Klein and Guess
who cannot pass a sixth-grade reading test
but if you ask them, they can tell you
the name of every crotch on mTV
and it feels like I am living in the wasteland of the free

We kill for oil, then we throw a party when we win
Some guy refuses to fight, and we call that the sin
but he's standing up for what he believes in
and that seems pretty damned American to me
and it feels like I am living in the wasteland of the free

Living in the wasteland of the free
where the poor have now become the enemy
Let's blame our troubles on the weak ones
Sounds like some kind of Hitler remedy
Living in the wasteland of the free

While we sit gloating in our greatness
justice is sinking to the bottom of the sea
Living in the wasteland of the free
Living in the wasteland of the free
Living in the wasteland of the free

[enigmatic]

8. It's a very scary time...

It kills me to say this, but I'm glad I'm up here instead of back home in the US..

[rwenos]

9. It's the Trend, Eh?

My Canuck friend, you live in a country that reveres fair play, due process, self-reliance, and nature.

America CAN be a great neighbor to you. Some of us (like me) LOVE Canada. But we have this problem. Thirty percent of our electorate is religious fanatics. They used to be the dispossessed (70 years ago), and were part of the great coalition assembled by Franklin Roosevelt, which defined majority politics in the United States until the 1980's.

It started when Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The religious crazies did not like this development, since most of them were Southern White Supremacists. Then, George Wallace fanned the fires of Southern and Evangelical hatred. Richard Nixon ignored it (too interested in his own thuggery), but Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. all exploited it.

Bill Clinton attracted enough of this group to be elected twice, while still maintaining most of the FDR coalition. An amazing act of political juggling.

But now they think they have captured the White House, and they want to run America, so they can run the world.

They are insane. If they become insane and powerful enough, many of us will move north to be with you.

[Canadian Socialist]

10. rwenos, the U.S. has been a great neighbour

and I thank you for your answer. This was what I was looking for. Canada has many, many faults. We are not the perfect country. But, for the most part, people are safe, clothed and fed. As well, they have access, regardless of position in society, to good health care.

What frightens me is the upsurge here of the American "political action groups" that prey on the weak and the lonely. Also, if the present government, here, falls, there is a very good chance the Conservative party will come to power. And they have become LOADED with american-style neo-cons. It could happen here, what has become to your free, democratic society. And we do not have the power to stop them.

[rwenos]

15. Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid

Especially since the Tories got their asses kicked so thoroughly back in the early 1990's, your answer distresses me. Vancouver is one of the world's great cities, and I sort of always thought I could move there if things got too crazy here.

On the other hand, the wild utopian in me thinks Northern California, Oregon, Washington and British Columbia would make a very powerful, resource-rich, wealthy and beautiful country. I've met a few Americans who share this view.

But if the yahoo know-nothing Conservatives are on the march in fair Canada, eventually it will get to the point where you might find yourself in the streets too.

Do ya REALLY think they could take over BC? My fantasy redoubt is at risk?

[anitar1]

23. I understand that the Dodson religious forces are trying to

influence your country. According to what I have read, they have sent people into Canada to work on turning your government. They are actually listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center in this country. Look it up, then you will understand what you are dealing with.

[Arugula Latte]

33. The scary thing is,

the religious fanatics are the ones making the disproportionate number of babies, who will mostly grow up to be religious fanatics.

[sasquatch]

11. This is the most terrified for my country that I've ever been

:scared:
I'm always wondering if I should point my truck toward the Canadian border and never look back on some days.
:(
The people I fear for the most are people that are healthy enough to serve in the Military because they'll probably be drafted up in stuck in one Bush's quamires.

[Canadian Socialist]

16. Do you know what saves me from complete desperation?

Is the thought that even the most conservative people I know here (in Calgary of all places) would be considered a flaming liberal in some of your states? Here, universal health care is sacrosanct. You do not play politics with that. Schooling, transit, infrastructure, etc. are things that everyone accepts as being part of "the common good". To take these sorts of things away, and privatize them is anathema to most Canadians. It simply isn't done. That is what will save this country and make it not like the states.

[amerikat]

13. Our country has been hijacked. We are slow to anger.

But when push comes to shove, we will stand and fight for what is right. We have to account for some atrocities, and we will reach deep and set a new course. The America that you knew and loved will return with new vigor and resolve. * is toast.

[thecai]

14. It Gets Worse With Every Republican President

And it's much worse than we think, due to cover-ups and biased media.

[Not_Giving_Up]

17. It's much worse

Really

[Canadian Socialist]

19. Peace, order and good government

eh?
Except for the eh? part, that is what is in our Constitution. This is what we strive for. A hell of a lot different from yours, wouldn't you say?

If you are interested in more info, go here,

http://www.pogge.ca/

I'm sure she/he writes a great deal on babble.ca. It's sorta the DU canajan style. Heee.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. No, it's worse

[LSdemocrat]

20. The government is on a terrifyingly dangerous course, but . . .

The effects of many of the government's dangerous policies (total fiscal irresponsibility, failure to tackle health care costs, rising job losses and job downshifting, and an irresponsible foreign policy) have yet to actually affect many ordinary Americans who seem to think that what the government does doesn't actually affect them. But of course this convergence of totally idiotic policies will, unless soon reversed, will likely lead to a new global Great Depression and hasten the slide of the US from a position of global dominance.

[SKKY]

21. It's just like anything else...

...It's never as bad as it may seem at the time, just like it was never as good as everyone else made it out to be when Clinton was in office- although pretty damn close. It all depends on who you talk to, and I think you're quite smart to look at both perspectives. But, to answer your question, I don't think it's as bad as it seems.

[lady lib]

22. I hate to tell you this, but the extreme religious right is

beginning to get politically active in Canada as well.

(Ottawa) Conservative Christian groups have grabbed control of nearly a dozen Conservative Party ridings across Canada and vow they will ensure the party adheres to a strict right wing agenda including an end to same-sex marriage.

Candidates with close ties the Canadian branches of groups including Focus on the Family and other American evangelical groups have won party nominations in three provinces: Four in British Columbia, three in Nova Scotia, and one in Ontario. The groups also have succeeded in having their members win votes to become riding association presidents elsewhere in the country.

And they say that it is only the beginning.

-snip-

Harper and the Conservatives have been receiving help from the Republican Party. GOP advisers and consultants have been working with the party for more than a year. -snip-

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/05/053105canPC.htm

[mogster]

24. Deduct 10% from your radicalism when logging off

If you can manage. I try, and think it's a sound policy ;-)

The written word is strong, and a board like this where all the bad info is collected will create a certain 'leaning' in your mind towards crisis. I'm not saying it is not a crisis, mind. I never knew we were in such deep shit as this. But to keep my mind at least partially in flow with my own society - where the roses are red, birds are singing, and no one officially talks about Bush anymore - I have to compromise in some ways, and simmer down a bit.
If you focus on CBC and Toronto Star, you're well provided, mediawise. The Canadian media is really impressive, and has a quality and pose towards journalism that is of BBC quality.

Sometimes I feel like Cypher from the Matrix; I wish I hadn't taken the red pill and could enjoy the juicy steak of oblivion.
But there's no way back once you've pulled the lid off the blog-box, and thank heavens for that!

[Theres-a]

25. It's creepy alright.

All the 1984 references are happening.The media,privacy,debt is out of control,aid is being cut everywhere,and that housing bubble can't go on forever.Nothing like a sea of SUV's sporting "support our troops" yellow ribbons,Oh and I almost forgot the fundies.

[WilliamPitt]

26. Depends on where you are, who you are

If you're a white male with short hair, wearing clean clothes, the country is still pretty much your oyster from coast to coast. If your skin is brown, or if you look/are Arabic, you probably want to carry a stick with you at night, depending on where you are.

We still have freedom of speech, as evidenced by the fact that people can post here. That freedom suffers from intimidation from many places, but it's still there. If you are vociferous in your protests, you might have a file.

Depending on what you do, jobs are kind of hard to come by. Entry-level white-collar jobs are scarce, as are a lot of retail jobs, so if you are young, you will wear out some shoe leather.

Don't get sick here.

I'd wager that a lot of the people who speak of oppression here are rarely, if ever, actually oppressed. The potential is there, however.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

29. Well said

[Omphaloskepsis]

27. For me nothing has really changed..

The economy fluctuates. That is the big one. I don't fear being rounded up for my religious views. I am more afraid of the DHS reading my e-mail. I have never been afraid of terrorist. For most Americans it is life as normal. At least in my part of town. Some things they want to do are scary. To be perfectly honest my day-to day life is the same as it was 3 years ago. I do believe they are putting laws in place to change that with a flick of the wrist. I do fear what they could do with the power they now possess.

Our country doesn't look like the sound stage for an action flick yet.

[Misunderestimator]

28. Interesting way of asking.... Group think, Chicken Little?

Almost like you really don't believe what's happening. Believe it.

[Shell Beau]

30. Some things are bad, but we just go on.

I, for one, am happy to live here and wouldn't trade my country for any other. We have idiots in charge, but all will work out in the future. Americans are usually smart (although not so in the last election). We are a strong people. As much as I am disgusted with how things have been going, I know they will turn around. America is still the best country to live, IMHO. And I have to be positive about what the future holds.

[GOPBasher]

31. Have you seen Star Wars: Episode III? It's like that.

We're at the brink right now. If the people in the Republic don't open their eyes sson, we might fall into a fascist theocracy.

[lady lib]

32. Hey Canadian Socialist...

are you concerned about the article I posted (see response #22)? I worry that the GOP has it's tentacles in Canada and I live way the hell in Phoenix!

[khashka]

34. It is subtle

for the most part things seem to be the way they always have been. If you visited, things wouldn't seem much different. But they are. Little things, big things, strange things.

The US has not changed, but it is changing. For the worse.....

Khash.

[jswordy]

35. "I get my news from the internet."

That's a myopic sole source. I wouldn't draw my conclusions from the Net alone. Is it "bad"? Depends on your perspective and what you are asking about.

I suggest that you read more widely and make up your own mind. There are many great things about this country, with Bush in power or not. I disagree with much that is ging on now, but I also realize that across the span of this country's history, it has been self-correcting. I have great faith in that system.

[Lannes]

36. Its not like a bad World War II movie

About nazi Germany but if you try to protest like those at the GOP convention or try to go to a Bush event where they suspect you of not being a "true believer" then it really starts to show.

The only thing I believe that needs to happen for the nightmare scenario to take place that we keep talking about is another large scale attack on US soil.

Once that happens the last vestiges of our democracy will be swept away.It could still happen without one but I believe it will be so gradual that one day those out there who havent noticed what is going on like we do will wake up and ask what the hell happened? By then it will be too late.

[GreenPartyVoter]

37. it is definitely not good. I mean I still can walk down the street

the way I always did, but in the back of my mind I know about the lies that got us into the war, the lies that are dismantling our education system, health system, and social security, i know about the Patriot Act and I worry that my posting here could get me in trouble, I knowabout the corporations and how they simultaneously rule and ruin the world.

Actually, it's probably worse than I thought, *depressed sigh*